(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers

By vid1900

9 years ago


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#551 7 years ago

Take some CLEAR, PROPERLY LIT, PROPERLY FOCUSED pictures of your wiring.

Prick up the wires so the colors and stripes are easily visible.

-

Why did you replace the coils for the bottom flippers in the first place?

Did the game ever work while you owned it?

2 weeks later
#552 7 years ago

Vid, I've started rebuilding all 4 flippers on my F-14. I'm upgrading to WPC style flippers.

The upper coils were incorrect. They were 'red' coils and should have been 'green' (Williams 11722/50V) so I'm replacing them. Check it out… fried coil. It has swelled in the middle. I cannot remove the coil sleeve and you can actually see where the paper was browning.

20141012_125235.jpg

I'm currently re-assembling everything. One of the capacitor leads broke clean off and I don't have a replacement. Crap! I would suggest ordering these as well if any of you are thinking about doing a re-build.

20141012_125147.jpg

Anyway... I went to put the coil and coil stop in. My new coil is keyed for the coil stop. If I reverse the coil so that the diodes are away from the coil stop then the key gets in the way. In your photos you show it as being filed/cut off. So my question to you… If the diodes were meant to be flipped around then why is the coil keyed for the coil stop? Do I cut off the key? Here's how mine looks;

20141012_201423.jpg

Also, in your photos from page 1 of this thread you mention squeezing both ends of the coil together and then tightening everything down so there is no movement in the coil. Do you do this just to ensure the L brackets squeezing the coil in place are straight up and down?

Sorry if I sound confrontational. I am not trying to be. I tend to sound very fact-matic when I am writing a techy type post.

#553 7 years ago

Just take a Dremel or Rat-tail file and make a notch in the bracket.

Making the L brackets tight means no slop- so all the energy goes to moving the ball.

#554 7 years ago

So don't cut it off? Okay.

#555 7 years ago

I've got some flipper problems on my LOTR. They are too powerful after a rebuild and I think they travel up too high as well (unless this is how LOTR was designed).

I made a post as a new topic for the issue. If anyone has any insight, it would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to post there, or post here. THANKS!

Here's the link https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flippers-waaaaay-too-strong-after-rebuild-lotr

Here's a copy and paste:

So the flippers in my LOTR were travling too far up (coil stops and plungers worn). They had plenty of power still, but I decided to rebuild them so they wouldn't travel up so far (they still travel further up than I think they should, it's a little better though, WTF?).

Anyhow, I bought a kit from PBL and installed them. Holy freaking smokes. These things are way too powerful now! The ball flies off the left ramp. I feel like I'm going to break off Balrogs crotch! It almost feels unsafe to play the game now. I feel like I'm going to destroy everything!

Here are a few things I did to try and help this problem out.
1. I changed the coil pulse power adjustment to soft....didn't really notice a change.
2. I pitched the game up to 7.3ish degrees to try and deal with it. That helped slightly, but now the damn game is too fast.
3. I put a couple of washers under the left ramp which helped a little bit too. I still get a ball that flies off of there and goes into the shire every 5-6 times.
4. I went into the adjustment menu and changed: adjustment #53 to 10 milliseconds, #54 to 40 milliseconds. #55 to 0. Not sure I really noticed and change after this...

Here's a few things I'm thinking....
-I almost want to remove the new coil plungers and scuff them up a little bit with some sand paper to slow them down. Would that be dumb?
-The game has flipper coils p/n 090-5032-20T installed (updated coils) on both the left and right flipper. Should I buy less powerful coils?

I also went into the switch test to make sure the I soldered the EOS switches in good enough (they look great, I'm fully capable of soldering, just wanted to double check my work). They don't register in the switch test mode...but neither do the flipper switches and those clearly work. Maybe they don't show up in that test mode?

I'm just throwing all the information I have out there. Does anyone have any suggestions or insight on this issue? I really don't want to have to leave the pitch so high to compensate for crazy strong flippers. I like LOTR because it's a bit slower to play and that is nice sometimes. But at 7.3 degrees and these flippers....whoa! It's like playing Ironman.

Also. The flippers still travel up higher than I think they should. Comparing these to my other STERN games, they come up way further. I can let a ball come off of either ramp and just hold up the flipper and the ball will not roll past the tip of the flipper...makes it a bit too easy...

#556 7 years ago

I am getting ready to rebuild the flippers on my Pinbot and plan to upgrade them to Fliptronic flippers like Vid describes in this guide. I already have the high voltage EOS switches that Vid recommended from PBL.

What I can't figure out is the other half of the flipper switch, circled in red in the picture. I've seen it described online as "this switch with the diode is low-voltage and connected to the switch matrix." I'd like to replace it at the same time, since I'm doing a complete rebuild. Where can I get a pair of these switches? I looked on PBL but couldn't find them.

Thanks.

sys11_flipper_switches_circled.jpg
#557 7 years ago

Pretty sure it is this one. Email Terry and ask him if the diode is included. If not, just explain to him what you are trying to do.

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=8

Looks like Marco has them. I'm sure if you call Terry he'll have them as well.
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/B-9951-1

#558 7 years ago

Thank you for all the help. Flipper is fixed and working great.

#559 7 years ago
Quoted from vulture:

What I can't figure out is the other half of the flipper switch, circled in red in the picture. I've seen it described online as "this switch with the diode is low-voltage and connected to the switch matrix."

The coils are high voltage, and the switch matrix is low voltage.

The two can NOT ever meet, or things can blow up.

#560 7 years ago

Vulture, I am in the process of rebuilding my pinbot per Vid's guide here. if you wait a couple days I will post the result and parts list. Pinbot is special and needs full frames, since the switch bracket doesn't have a place to drill.

Edit: Getting the last of my parts in the next couple days is the reason for the wait, sorry.

#561 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The coils are high voltage, and the switch matrix is low voltage.

The two can NOT ever meet, or things can blow up.

I don't want them to meet, I just want to replace the lane change switches at the same time as everything else! I guess that part of my message wasn't very clear.

Quoted from Fifty:

Pretty sure it is this one. Email Terry and ask him if the diode is included. If not, just explain to him what you are trying to do.

Excellent, thank you so much! I emailed Terry.

Quoted from Curbfeeler:

I am in the process of rebuilding my pinbot per Vid's guide here. if you wait a couple days I will post the result and parts list.

Perfect, that will be a big help. Thank you!

#562 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

First, order the KT-BFLIP-03 rebuild kit from Pinball Resource ($44 after your 10% discount for ordering $100 worth of stuff):

http://www.pbresource.com/rebuildkit.html#KT-BFLIP03

DO NOT tell Steve you are modifying linear flippers, he will yell at you.

Then order the better Williams EOS Switch also from PBR : #03-7811

The Williams EOS Switch has the little helper spring leaf that makes a stronger electrical contact. Stronger contact means stronger flippers.

Hi Vid,

Thanks for the guides you have put together, they are extremely helpful.

I have a question about downgrading the Bally flippers. I have an Embryon I am working on, and wonder what you do with the flipper that has the switch stack for the upper right flipper?

Do you stack the williams switch you mention above with this one: ASW-A10-45?

Thanks,
Gabe

#563 7 years ago
Quoted from gabegabegabe:

I have an Embryon I am working on, and wonder what you do with the flipper that has the switch stack for the upper right flipper?

Post a clean picture, just to be sure that your switch has not been swapped out at some point.

Usually the low voltage switches are simply cleaned and returned to service.

#564 7 years ago

This may not be applicable, but it seemed like a place to ask.

I have a 1972 Swinger, The flippers have been removed by the previous owner. From what I understand, these are the first Williams DC flippers. Since I have to replace the flippers, Should I get the ones listed here, or are the EM flippers totally different?

Thanks Vid!

#565 7 years ago
Quoted from NextoPin:

I have a 1972 Swinger, The flippers have been removed by the previous owner. From what I understand, these are the first Williams DC flippers. Since I have to replace the flippers, Should I get the ones listed here, or are the EM flippers totally different?

The EM flippers looked like these early SS mechs:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/6

If you want the ultimate "playability" then install the new style flipper mechs.

You could end up with the best playing Swinger in the world.

#566 7 years ago

That's exactly what I needed, Many thanks again for all you do for Pinball.

#567 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Post a clean picture, just to be sure that your switch has not been swapped out at some point.

Here is a picture of my Embryon lower right flipper mech.

IMAG0142.jpg
#568 7 years ago

Both of those switches have the plastic pusher on the tips.

Probably best to just use the Bally parts in this instance.

#569 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The EM flippers looked like these early SS mechs:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/6
If you want the ultimate "playability" then install the new style flipper mechs.
You could end up with the best playing Swinger in the world.

I was thinking last night, When I upgrade my flippers in BK2K, can I use the old ones on the Swinger?

#570 7 years ago
Quoted from Curbfeeler:

I am in the process of rebuilding my pinbot per Vid's guide here. if you wait a couple days I will post the result and parts list. Pinbot is special and needs full frames, since the switch bracket doesn't have a place to drill.

As promised, here is my parts list from Pinball Life. This is for Pinbot and should be everything you need. I replaced everything but the non-impact side of the coil bracket and one low voltage switch (both marked in red).

IMG_4349.JPG

Everything else goes. The reason I had to get new WPC bases is Pinbot didn't have the capacitor so there's nothing above the switch to attach the spring to. I could have fabricated something, but for $20 shipped I'd rather have something I know will work.

Keep in mind I didn't know about the bases until I'd bought everything else, so likely I could have saved by buying a complete kit. Live and learn.

Of course you could replace your low voltage switches, but I can't imagine you need to. Those just tell the CPU that the flippers were pressed via the switch matrix so the lane lights can alternate. they are prob used for high scores also, but not sure.

Hope this helps fellow pinbotters.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Williams Logo Flipper Bat And Shaft Assembly
pbl_20-9250-5_20-9250-6
Options:
Choose A Color : White $4.95
(Not Taxable) 2 $9.90
1-1/2" Standard Size Translucent High Gloss Super-Bands™ Flipper Rubber
pbl_23-6519-xx
Options:
Choose A Color : Red $1.95
(Not Taxable) 1 $1.95
1-1/2" Standard Size Translucent High Gloss Super-Bands™ Flipper Rubber
pbl_23-6519-xx
Options:
Choose A Color : Blue
Williams/Bally Flipper Rebuild Kit - 02/1992 to 04/1993
pbl_0292-0493
Options:
What Do You Need? : Full Kit $21.50
(Not Taxable) 1 $21.50
Williams/Bally Nylon Flipper Bushing
pbl_03-7568 $0.85
(Not Taxable) 2 $1.70
Williams/Bally End Of Stroke Switch - Normally Closed
pbl_03-7811 $2.75
(Not Taxable) 2 $5.50
Williams/Bally Rubber Bumper Plug/Grommet
pbl_23-6577 $0.65
(Not Taxable) 2 $1.30
Williams/Bally Left Staked Flipper Base Sub Assembly
pbl_C-16103-L $9.25
(Not Taxable) 1 $9.25
Williams/Bally Right Staked Flipper Base Sub Assembly
pbl_C-16103-R $9.25
(Not Taxable) 1 $9.25
Williams SFL-23-600/30-2600 Flipper Coil
pbl_SFL-23-600/30-2600_coil $11.25
(Not Taxable) 2 $22.50

IMG_4346.JPG

#571 7 years ago
Quoted from Curbfeeler:

The reason I had to get new WPC bases is Pinbot didn't have the capacitor so there's nothing above the switch to attach the spring to.

Thanks a lot Curbfeeler! This is great. Any problems attaching the low-voltage + high-voltage switch "stacks" to the new bases?

#572 7 years ago
Quoted from vulture:

Any problems attaching the low-voltage + high-voltage switch "stacks" to the new bases?

Re: Pinbot:

Nope, everything is just like here in Vid's guide. The WPC bases are the same dimension as the stock pinbot, and everything fits perfectly. Only thing I'd caution you about is make sure when your LV switches are tightened down that they are mounted square so they clear the springs and don't short out.

I did have to dremel notches in my coil brackets on the non-impact side, so be aware of that. That's the part I circled above. Wasn't hard to do and there are pics elsewhere in the guide.

Good luck
Dan

1 week later
#573 7 years ago

Q: NO MATTER HOW TIGHT I MAKE THE FLIPPER PAWL, THE FLIPPER SHAFT IS STILL LOOSE.

A: DREMEL OR FILE OUT SOME MATERIAL SO THAT THERE IS A GAP IN THE TIGHTENED PAWL.

---------------------------------

Remove the clamping bolt, and file off a little material.

It won't take much.

pbl_a-15848-r.jpg

#574 7 years ago

Hello Vid,

Re BK,
noticed all 4 std flipper mechs are missing the black rubber stop grommets, is this normal

#575 7 years ago

I have a dumb question...

The wires that are soldered to the switch assembly - does it matter which one is soldered to the long/short switch? As in, if I have an orange and a black wire, does the orange have to be soldered to the short leaf and black to the long leaf, or can it be either or?

E: This might not matter. I'm repairing the flippers on my WCS94, and the manual reads:

With the flipper, in the non-activated position, the E.O.S. Switch contacts must have a gap of 0.062". When flipper is activated switch must close.

What dictates when a game is reverse of that shown on the first page of this thread?

#576 7 years ago

I have a Flash, Time Warp and Firepower I would like to upgrade but I'm a little confused.

I've seen two suggestions for flipper mechs:

88/91
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=717&parent=107

92/98
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=172

Which ones should I use?

From what I understand, Flash and Time Warp use the older style EM mechs, but Firepower uses a newer style. Does it make sense to upgrade the Firepower mechs too?

Thanks!

#577 7 years ago
Quoted from spaceport:

Which ones should I use?

Follow this, there are even Timewarp pics:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/3

Quoted from spaceport:

Firepower uses a newer style. Does it make sense to upgrade the Firepower mechs too?

This page shows how to upgrade your Firepower mechs and springs to the ultimate:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers

#578 7 years ago

Thanks Vid!

#579 7 years ago

Just got my new flippers, now I have to re-read all 12 pages because I forgot mostly everything I read. Getting old sucks.

I want to try and put my BK2K flippers in my '72 Swinger, not sure if that's possible or if I should just stick with the kind that it came with. Maybe I'll know after I re-read this thread.

#580 7 years ago
Quoted from NextoPin:

I want to try and put my BK2K flippers in my '72 Swinger, not sure if that's possible or if I should just stick with the kind that it came with.

Make sure that your coil is the correct voltage.

#581 7 years ago

What are the culprits for when a rebuilt flipper absorbs too much of the impact of the ball (making bounce passes difficult)?

#582 7 years ago

Probably either the wrong coil stops, or more likely, the old coil stops were rather worn and the new ones, although correct, offer much different play.

#583 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Probably either the wrong coil stops, or more likely, the old coil stops were rather worn and the new ones, although correct, offer much different play.

Can you explain this a bit more in detail? I'm not sure I see why that would make a difference since the coil stop only comes into play at end of a flipper stroke.

I'm talking about the flippers being at rest, and having too much play when struck by a ball.

#584 7 years ago
Quoted from ryanwanger:

Can you explain this a bit more in detail? I'm not sure I see why that would make a difference since the coil stop only comes into play at end of a flipper stroke.
I'm talking about the flippers being at rest, and having too much play when struck by a ball.

Sounds like a worn flipper bushing, with an elongated hole for the flipper shaft. Did you replace the flipper bushing?

#585 7 years ago
Quoted from ryanwanger:

I'm talking about the flippers being at rest, and having too much play when struck by a ball.

Sorry, I did not understand the question.

Unless some coil bracket or linkage is worn/loose, then I'd go with Razorbak's worn bushing.

#586 7 years ago
Quoted from NextoPin:

Just got my new flippers, now I have to re-read all 12 pages because I forgot mostly everything I read. Getting old sucks.
I want to try and put my BK2K flippers in my '72 Swinger, not sure if that's possible or if I should just stick with the kind that it came with. Maybe I'll know after I re-read this thread.

I've re-read these Vid threads many times. It's like watching a movie multiple times. You learn something new each time.

#587 7 years ago

I hope they make a movie out of this. Now that would be a good reason for popcorn!

#588 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Sorry, I did not understand the question.
Unless some coil bracket or linkage is worn/loose, then I'd go with Razorbak's worn bushing.

Sorry, I should have said that - I did the bushing when rebuilding everything else. Honestly, I might re-do the bushings.

I did also use the spacer tool, to make sure there was a small gap between the bat and the bushing. But let's say I didn't do that correctly - could that be a cause?

What about old, worn bats? Maybe the shaft of the bat being worn? Might just order new bats.

#589 7 years ago

Could be the wrong bushings or wrong bats maybe?

#590 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Could be the wrong bushings or wrong bats maybe?

Wow - for some reason that never occurred to me, I was thinking all bats were created equally. These are actually aftermarket "chrome" bats, put in by the previous owner. I'll order some new bats and report back.

#591 7 years ago

Vid, I'm replacing the coil sleeve. The old one slid out no problem so I'm going to re-use the coil. The new sleeve from Pinball Life doesn't fit. Diameter wise it seems just a hair off. I have a bag of 20 of them, and they are all the same. The sleeve goes in about halfway and then gets stuck. I can force it (lightly tapping it), but I'd rather not as I'll never be able to get the damn thing out again.

The coil is fine. Ever had some bad sleeves? 20 of them?

#592 7 years ago

Usually in my bag of sleeves, there are some tighter than others, but you never know.

Try waxing the outside of the sleeve, let it dry and wipe off. Then see if it will go.

#593 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Usually in my bag of sleeves, there are some tighter than others, but you never know.
Try waxing the outside of the sleeve, let it dry and wipe off. Then see if it will go.

This was exactly what I thought so I tried all of them, all 20 I had ordered. They are all just a fraction of a millimeter off. I'll try some Carnuba wax. Weird problem...

#594 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Usually in my bag of sleeves, there are some tighter than others, but you never know.
Try waxing the outside of the sleeve, let it dry and wipe off. Then see if it will go.

Waxing didn't help. It's almost like the sleeves are slightly tapered. Not visibly noticeable, at least to my eyes. I have sent an email to Terry at PL asking if he's had any complaints about them.

#595 7 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Usually in my bag of sleeves, there are some tighter than others, but you never know.
Try waxing the outside of the sleeve, let it dry and wipe off. Then see if it will go.

I jammed a tight sleeve into a NEW coil the other day, and I fear that it's stuck forever. Is it?

-mof

#596 7 years ago
Quoted from mof:

I jammed a tight sleeve into a NEW coil the other day, and I fear that it's stuck forever. Is it?

-mof

Maybe.

If you have a 1/4" drive socket set, there is one metric sized deep socket that can drive out a standard coil sleeve.

But at some point, you will just buy a new $10 coil, lol.

#597 7 years ago
Quoted from mof:

I jammed a tight sleeve into a NEW coil the other day, and I fear that it's stuck forever. Is it?

-mof

I thought of doing this but thought better of it. Why jam one in? Especially when the old one slides in like a (please use your own simile here).

#598 7 years ago

Hi vid,

I'm 3 flippers in to converting my F-14 Tomcat to fliptronic flippers. Only 1 more to go. I just finished up the lower left flipper. Now I'm going to move onto the lower right flipper. However, the travel on the new fliptronic flippers is less. Here is the pic of the difference in travel. Again the fliptronic is on the left and the original Sys 11 conical is on the right.

20141114_224139.jpg

When I started this process I didn't realise that the fliptronic style flippers on a Sys11 game would change the game play. I just thought they'd be snappier. I was just starting to get good at this game.

Did I do something wrong?

#599 7 years ago
Quoted from Fifty:

Did I do something wrong?

New coil stops have less range of motion.

The more worn out they are, the more travel you get.

The only way you "did something wrong" is if you ordered the wrong fliptronic coil stops, as the last flippers Williams made, had the least travel.

This is the Fliptronic you want:

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=273

277715-i.jpg
#600 7 years ago

I ordered the kit referenced in the first few posts of this thread;
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=983&parent=172

Does this kit have the incorrect coil stops for Sys11? Or is my old one just so worn down that the range is that different? I think the problem is I've never seen what a new one should look like. The one in the kit is the first new one I've ever seen.

Here's a pic of my old coil stop. I didn't think it was that bad. It's not mushroomed, it's just flat. Are you saying this old one is supposed to have a beveled edge? If so, wow the old one is worn out;

20141115_094823.jpg

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