(Topic ID: 18292)

VID's Guide to Upgrading/Rebuilding Flippers


By vid1900

7 years ago



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There are 2362 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 48.
#451 5 years ago
Quoted from cheezywhiz:

I had a flipper that had too much wiggle which made dead passes impossible. Ball would hit the flipper and just roll off and drain. I replaced the bushing which fixed the problem, but the flippers are still not as solid as newer games when dead passing. Normal for old flippers, or fixable?

Is the linkage tight?

If the linkage is free of slop and the coil sleeves are new, then that is as good as the stock mechs are going to get (assuming no prior op has subbed in other incorrect parts).

You can, of course, put in WPC flipper mechs and Williams flipper bats (longer metal shafts), if you want "surgical" flippers installed in your game.

Not only does this give you the ultimate flippers, but parts and rebuilds are 1/3-1/2 the price of the Classic Stern ones.

#452 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Is the linkage tight?
If the linkage is free of slop and the coil sleeves are new, then that is as good as the stock mechs are going to get (assuming no prior op has subbed in other incorrect parts).
You can, of course, put in WPC flipper mechs and Williams flipper bats (longer metal shafts), if you want "surgical" flippers installed in your game.
Not only does this give you the ultimate flippers, but parts and rebuilds are 1/3-1/2 the price of the Classic Stern ones.

There is some play/wiggle in the linkage which I tried to improve. I wasn't able to find a full flipper rebuild kit or link assembly for a late 70s Stern (PBResource is out of stock -- http://www.pbresource.com/KT-OLDSTNOLD.html -- know any other places to buy?).

I bought individual bushings, sleeves, and new plastic links (http://www.pbresource.com/rebuildk/stn-4a299.jpg) which look nothing like the original rectangular links. I haven't tried swapping the links yet because I'm not sure how to remove the pin from the existing ones and haven't had time to mess with it. (How do you remove/replace that pin?)

#453 5 years ago
Quoted from cheezywhiz:

(How do you remove/replace that pin?)

That is a roll pin that you tap out with a punch.

roll pin.jpg

1 week later
#454 5 years ago

Thanks for the help, Vid!

I can't find any Classic Stern J-25-500/34-5050 coils in stock anywhere online.

Can I substitute with Bally AQ-25-500/34-5050 coils?

#455 5 years ago

Try calling Pinball Resource..

As a general note - their rebuild kits include bushings.

#456 5 years ago

vid1900,
Your adamant about the lug side of the flipper coil facing away from the stop. So with that in mind, should the pop bumper coils be the same way? Turned around? The reason I'm asking is one of my pops after it fires is sticking down for a few seconds before coming back up. These are newly rebuilt pops. What I'm noticing is the threaded end on the rod when it comes down 80 % of the time will rub up against the side of the square plastic on the coil and stick. Solution? I'm thinking that turning the coil around so the rounded end is in that position then the rod wouldn't rub up against it.
Jack

#457 5 years ago

I have an EOS warning on start up of my F14 and cannot figure out what this one part is. Flipper seems to work with no issues. I believe the culprit is the arrowed item (I borrowed the picture from a previous post) and I think it is a capacitor per the manual. But when I ordered the part it looks nothing like this. Help please...
EOS Issue.png

#458 5 years ago
Quoted from Ed731:

I think it is a capacitor

This is a diode on the switch matrix. It isn't common for them to fail, except where they experience high vibrations--something the flipper assembly will provide. I would just replace the diode with a new one. Any 1N400x (where x is 1, 4 or 7, so 1N4004) will work there. Make sure the band is in the same direction.

If it's not the diode, look for a bad connector, or possibly broken resistor capacitor array next to the connector on the Sys11 main board (I fought with that issue on my F14 that was causing phantom tilts---I posted pictures of the problem and repair in another thread).

You definitely want to get the EOS switch working. If it isn't sensing it (always off), then you will run the risk of burning out the coil, melting the sleeve/increasing binding in the flipper assembly or shorting out a driving transistor on the CPU if you hold the coil on (like to stop the ball at the base of the flipper bat). If it always is sensing it (always on) then you will never have enough strength in the flipper to hit a ball as only the holding coil is working not the main driving coil.

If you have a multi-meter you can test it to be sure, but since they cost around 5 cents each, easier to just replace it to be sure. Not sure where you picked up that it is a capacitor from the manual? Were you looking at the 2.2uf bright yellow rectangle capacitor that is secured to the side of the leaf holder that goes across the high voltage inner switch to reduce the pitting it gets from the high amp discharge on each flip? -- Yours does not look like it uses the newer coils/assemblies that require the capacitor. I think some F14's did upgrade to them while older ones didn't use them due to different coils.

#459 5 years ago

Thanks. I did not have a picture ready so I just used a post on this thread that was posted 3 months ago. Don't know if that is the same coil as mine. I'm posting this at work so I don't have everything in front of me to respond with exactly what I have. Don't tell anyone...

#460 5 years ago
Quoted from J_Cutler:

Your adamant about the lug side of the flipper coil facing away from the stop. So with that in mind, should the pop bumper coils be the same way? Turned around?

Pops don't have the strength of flipper coils, so they tend to fare much better in either position.

#461 5 years ago

Regarding Coil Stops: I know that '88 to '93 had one type, and '93 to '99 had another type. Are there any measurements out there for the length of the stop part of these coil stops? I need to know which one to get for my Blackout if I'm going to rebuild it with the new Fliptronic-style assembly.

Also, is there any drawback to getting the EOS with the reinforced back - the one I've seen referred to as the "high-voltage" style? It's cheaper and seems like a better idea, mechanically.

1 week later
#462 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

This is the correct installation of the Coil; Diodes safely away from the Coil Stop. It matters, do it right.
Some Coils were installed backwards at the factory, so you may have to pull a little slack wire from the harnesses to reach the proper position. Don't worry if you have to clip a few nylon Zip Ties to produce the slack you need.
CORRECT-COIL.jpg 59 KB

Does this go for all coils or just flippers? I have some sling coils that when I put in the "right way" push the sleeve out about a quarter of an inch. It may just be the wrong size sleeve though, I don't know. EDIT: I just saw you answered this question already. Sorry.

#463 5 years ago
Quoted from UvulaBob:

I need to know which one to get for my Blackout if I'm going to rebuild it with the new Fliptronic-style assembly.

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=172

Get the above, but with the High Voltage EOS:

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=262

And SFL 19/400 - 30/750 coil:

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=154

(you will need to tell Terry in an email to configure the kit like this for you)

#464 5 years ago

The rebuild kits I've got only included one switch, but the flippers I'm rebuilding have a couple more.

However, I have no idea what they are for. No lane changing here...

Optional sound fx trigger?

IMG_0157.jpg

#465 5 years ago
Quoted from Robotoes:

The rebuild kits I've got only included one switch, but the flippers I'm rebuilding have a couple more.

Usually, only the EOS switch wears out, because of the high voltage arcing.

The low voltage switch is cleaned by pulling a crisp $100 bill between the contacts, until it pulls through without leaving any black oxide.

Quoted from Robotoes:

However, I have no idea what they are for. No lane changing here...

Depends on the game, look on the schematics.

1 week later
#466 5 years ago

Vid, I've started replacing my flippers. I am not rebuilding the whole flipper assembly. That is happening down the road a little ways. I'm replacing the flippers only and reusing everything else (I can hear you groaning already).

I'm replacing 4 flippers (F-14). The lower flippers I was able to remove without any problems. I managed to put the new ones in without much difficulty and gapped them. They are working fine.

The upper ones, I'm having a really hard time with. I managed to get them out without too much difficulty, but I cannot get the new ones in. The flippers slide into the bushing without issue. It's when it reaches the flipper bracket that it becomes very difficult. I can slide the flipper pole into the first part of the flipper bracket and I managed to get it down about halfway to the second part of the flipper bracket and then it just stops. No amount of twisting back-n-forth to ease it down works. I've taken the nut/screw off completely and still no dice.

The PF is still in the cabinet. My back is starting to complain. Please help. I'm worried I'll damage part of the arm if I really put some pressure on it.

#467 5 years ago

Try to put the flipper shaft through the shaft clamp from the bottom of the playfield.

If the shaft won't fit when you have it directly in front of you, it sure won't work from the top.

If the clamp hole is too small, pry it open a LITTLE, with a large, standard screwdriver.

#468 5 years ago

Will do. How tight should it be with the screw/nut loose? Should I just be able to slide it in with ease or will I need to use a little force?

#469 5 years ago

What a great thread. I just rebuilt the flippers on my DM. They are FLYING up the ramps. The coils and EOS switches were backwards as you said. eventually I will do this to all of my machines except twister.

#470 5 years ago
Quoted from Fifty:

Will do. How tight should it be with the screw/nut loose? Should I just be able to slide it in with ease or will I need to use a little force?

As long as it goes through, that is all that matters. Just make sure shaft is clamped down tight after gap is adjusted.

#471 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I fixed a Tri Zone where one flipper had much more travel than the other.
Someone had installed 2 different coil stops.

COIL-STOP.jpg 24 KB

I have a BK2K and I was going to do the flipper upgrade, Do I need to get the System 11 coil stops if I'm buying the kit or do I use the ones that come with the kit?

Flipper Kit
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=983&parent=0

Coil Stops
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=catalog&parent=61&pg=1

Thanks! Great Instructions Vid, can't wait to get started.

#472 5 years ago

***Nevermind, my post below can be disregarded. After freaking out a bit I did more research and discovered my games are fliptronic games and the EOS switch is reversed...thanks anyhow! ***

Ok...sorry if this is a stupid question. I just read the 1st 6-7 pages of this thread and needed to check in. I just did my first flipper rebuilding on my BSD (both flippers) and TAF (just small left flipper). Is vid's guide primarily for system 11 games?

On both my BSD and TAF, the EOS switches were installed reverse to this guide...they were open at rest and when the flipper was activated that closed the switch. I just reinstalled my new flippers based on how they were installed before I removed them. Everything in this guide points to that being wrong...so what is correct? Were the EOS switches installed incorrectly before, or are WPC games different?

Thanks everyone!

#473 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Try to put the flipper shaft through the shaft clamp from the bottom of the playfield.
If the shaft won't fit when you have it directly in front of you, it sure won't work from the top.
If the clamp hole is too small, pry it open a LITTLE, with a large, standard screwdriver.

This worked. I removed the pawl bracket. Then used a slotted screwdriver and a hammer to pry it open a little, but it worked like a charm.

#474 5 years ago
Quoted from Fifty:

Will do. How tight should it be with the screw/nut loose? Should I just be able to slide it in with ease or will I need to use a little force?

No force needed at all.

#475 5 years ago
Quoted from NextoPin:

I have a BK2K and I was going to do the flipper upgrade, Do I need to get the System 11 coil stops if I'm buying the kit or do I use the ones that come with the kit?

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=983&parent=172

Get this, and then you want these EOS:

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=262

#476 5 years ago

Will do, Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

#477 5 years ago

Just a thought.... Is there a preferred gap when it comes to the cabinet flipper button switches?

#478 5 years ago

I think they told us in Bally pinball tech class that a quarter of the button travel should activate the cab switch. The further travel on the switch would wipe and clean the contacts.

I can't remember if Williams ever had an official gap or not.

#479 5 years ago

Hey Vid,

I'm modernizing my Firepower flippers.

I plan on ordering a WPC, pre-fliptronics rebuild kit (comes with high power EOS switches) and will order all the other associated parts separately (external springs, etc). The part I am unsure of is the coil stop. Pinballlife sells 3 different Williams coil stops.

Rebuild kit: http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=980
Coil Stop A-12111 that comes in the above kit: http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=273

Coil Stop A-10821 http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=977
Coil Stop A-12390 http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=272

Question is, should I use the coil stops that come in the rebuild kit or order a different one?

Should I be using a different rebuild kit as a starting point?

What I am concerned with is keeping the range of movement the same as the system 6 flippers.

#480 5 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Hey Vid,
I'm modernizing my Firepower flippers.
I plan on ordering a WPC, pre-fliptronics rebuild kit (comes with high power EOS switches) and will order all the other associated parts separately (external springs, etc). The part I am unsure of is the coil stop. Pinballlife sells 3 different Williams coil stops.
Rebuild kit: http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=980
Coil Stop A-12111 that comes in the above kit: http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=273
Coil Stop A-10821 http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=977
Coil Stop A-12390 http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=272
Question is, should I use the coil stops that come in the rebuild kit or order a different one?
Should I be using a different rebuild kit as a starting point?
What I am concerned with is keeping the range of movement the same as the system 6 flippers.

Firepower Flipper Upgrade.

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=228 4pcs.
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=273 2 pcs.
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=306 2 pcs
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=276 2 pcs
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=259 1 pc
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=260 1pc
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1510 2 pcs
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=652 firepower rebuild kit

I believe this is what you want.. If I'm wrong Vid1900 please correct me.

Jack

#482 5 years ago

very instructive!!!

#483 5 years ago

ok Vid, Now I'm a little confused. I want to do the same as Schwaggs, But I already did a complete rebuild recently on my Firepower with the Firepower rebuild flipper kit a few months back. New EOS switches and the works. So my list above is what I thought I needed minus the last item that I listed for him. So now do I also need the newer style rebuild kit? Or is my list correct for me? I need the new base plates as mine are the Firepower ones with the non-replaceable coil stop ones..

#484 5 years ago

Thanks for another great write up! I started my rebuild yesterday. I had the parts already but I just picked up the HF tumbler and media yesterday as well. My two lower flyer bats are cracked so they'll need replacement soon. They took many hours but the effort was definitely worth it!

Before
20140705_164547.jpg

During
20140706_113915.jpg

After
20140706_173818.jpg

#485 5 years ago

Nice!

#486 5 years ago

Do you just pour some of that "Scratch Out" into the tumbler? I've been using mine dry. I've read about people putting Novus into it. I was worried about the mess it would make.

#487 5 years ago
Quoted from J_Cutler:

ok Vid, Now I'm a little confused. I want to do the same as Schwaggs, But I already did a complete rebuild recently on my Firepower with the Firepower rebuild flipper kit a few months back. New EOS switches and the works. So my list above is what I thought I needed minus the last item that I listed for him. So now do I also need the newer style rebuild kit? Or is my list correct for me? I need the new base plates as mine are the Firepower ones with the non-replaceable coil stop ones..

So many ops have substituted so many parts over the years to keep games running, that it is hard to say what everyone needs.

Updating the flippers to the modern base plates and springs gives them that snappy feel (and replaceable coil stops).

#488 5 years ago

Hey Vid, I redid my High Speed and am getting an E.O.S problem on switch 38, thats the upper right flipper. I have this as the only switch on the flipper, is this correct?

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=262

#489 5 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

Hey Vid, I redid my High Speed and am getting an E.O.S problem on switch 38, thats the upper right flipper. I have this as the only switch on the flipper, is this correct?

Need a clear picture that shows the wiring in relation to the band on the diode.

Yes, EOS is only switch on upper flipper.

#490 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

So many ops have substituted so many parts over the years to keep games running, that it is hard to say what everyone needs.
Updating the flippers to the modern base plates and springs gives them that snappy feel (and replaceable coil stops).

Vid, I rebuilt my flippers with this kit 2 months ago.
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=652
Now I want to do the update as one of my springs broke already.
Do I have to buy the newer rebuild kit? Or can I just get the parts for the update in the list below?
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=259 1 pc
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=260 1 pc
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1510 2 pcs.
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=276 2 pcs
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=306 2 pcs
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=228 4pcs

And would these be the correct Coil Stops?
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=273 2 pcs

Thanks, Jack

#491 5 years ago

Vid, does the rubber grommet in the plate the flipper plunger rests on affect flipper power? I used this guide for my Firepower and I can't hit the upper lock shot barely at all. I don't have the rubber grommet. I did pick one up today, put it in, and I still can't make the shot consistently, but instead of 1 out of ten times, it maybe up to 3 out of ten. However, that rubber grommet takes away a lot of flipper travel and I'm finding it very difficult to cradle.

I've spent hours upon hours on this and I'm beyond frustrated. This game is useless if that top shot cannot be made with a clean shot.

#492 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

Vid, does the rubber grommet in the plate the flipper plunger rests on affect flipper power?

No

It does effect the length of travel, so if you need more travel, you can bend the grommet plate backwards with a big pair of Channel-Locks. A little bending goes a LONG way!

Quoted from Geocab:

This game is useless if that top shot cannot be made with a clean shot.

Assuming the correct coils are installed, and everything else was rebuild correctly, look to the EOS switch adjustment as your most likely problem.

If you use an alligator clip to jump the two leaves of the EOS together, does the flipper fire at full power?

#493 5 years ago
Quoted from J_Cutler:

Vid, I rebuilt my flippers with this kit 2 months ago.
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=652
Now I want to do the update as one of my springs broke already.
Do I have to buy the newer rebuild kit? Or can I just get the parts for the update in the list below?
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=259 1 pc
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=260 1 pc
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1510 2 pcs.
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=276 2 pcs
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=306 2 pcs
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=228 4pcs

And would these be the correct Coil Stops?
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=273 2 pcs

Thanks, Jack

Yeah, those conical springs are crap.

You already rebuilt the whole flipper so get the correct springs;

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=306

and the spring brackets:

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1510

Detailed instructions are in this thread, on page 1:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers

#494 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yeah, those conical springs are crap.
You already rebuilt the whole flipper so get the correct springs;
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=306
and the spring brackets:
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1510
Detailed instructions are in this thread, on page 1:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers

Thanks Vid for the reply. Don't I also need the newer style base plates and coil stops?
Other wise, how do I attach the new style spring on the original Firepower base plates?

#495 5 years ago
Quoted from J_Cutler:

Thanks Vid for the reply. Don't I also need the newer style base plates and coil stops?
Other wise, how do I attach the new style spring on the original Firepower base plates?

If you don't have them, then yes you need them.

Remember there is a L and R. I get an email once a month where someone gets two Rs, lol.

#496 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

No
It does effect the length of travel, so if you need more travel, you can bend the grommet plate backwards with a big pair of Channel-Locks. A little bending goes a LONG way!

Assuming the correct coils are installed, and everything else was rebuild correctly, look to the EOS switch adjustment as your most likely problem.
If you use an alligator clip to jump the two leaves of the EOS together, does the flipper fire at full power?

I'll try this tomorrow. Jumping the leaves out essentially keeps the switch closed so if the shot doesn't make it, the EOS gap is not the problem, correct?

#497 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yeah, those conical springs are crap.
You already rebuilt the whole flipper so get the correct springs;
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=306
and the spring brackets:
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=1510
Detailed instructions are in this thread, on page 1:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers

I know I'm a pain in the A$$... One last question. Which coil stops do I order from pinballlife?

#498 5 years ago
Quoted from Geocab:

Jumping the leaves out essentially keeps the switch closed so if the shot doesn't make it, the EOS gap is not the problem, correct?

Correct.

Look here where a new switch was ruining the flipper strength:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers/page/9

#499 5 years ago
Quoted from J_Cutler:

I know I'm a pain in the A$$... One last question. Which coil stops do I order from pinballlife?

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=273

#500 5 years ago

I must have done something wrong, I did the research and even sent Vid a PM, so what happened??

I started with rebuilding my Elvira flippers with a basic kit I already had for 88-91 Bally....last month.... After doing so and yes gapping the flipper and eos switches as suggested, it was still weak... in fact the right side was even worse and would sometimes go up and not come down. Manually, it wasn't a problem and I used the credit card idea to space it out....

Ok, no problem, It was only my second attempt at rebuilding flippers, so lets ask a few more questions and do the complete job...

I ordered complete flipper assemblies from pinball life C-13174 both left and right and I also went with the fl-11629 coils. Because I had looked further into it, I ordered the updated springs to do the conversion suggested. I also noticed my cabinet switches were horrible as well, no problem, I ordered 2 Williams/Bally leaf switches -single contact, part #SW-10A-48.

I labelled all my wires, installed the new parts, gapped the flippers and fired it up, left flipper is strong and snappy, right flipper doesn't work at all, period. Re-checked all connections, everything looks good and flipper moves freely when moved by hand.

What the heck did I manage to do?

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