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Post #6 Removing mylar and the adhesive left behind. Don't clear over it. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #7 Playfield damage assessment. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #8 Insert damage assessment. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #15 Removing inserts, step one - cut around it so you don't remove artwork with the insert. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #23 Removing inserts, step two - how to heat it, what to push it out with. Don't remove them if you're not replacing them. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #26 How a playfield is made and why your new inserts must be sanded flat before installation. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #34 How to sand your new inserts flat. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #35 Cleaning old glue out of the insert holes. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #36 Removing old mastic with a burr tool on a rotary device such as a Dremel. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #37 Prep your insert for gluing by sanding it with 100 grit. Epoxy can be chipped off the insert without this step. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

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OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Usually I remove Mylar, Magic Eraser, and scrape paint off worn inserts .
Then I put down a light coat of clear.
This:
1. Locks down worn wood fibers, letting the paint adhere cleanly, without fuzz or texture.
2. Locks down existing paint - so masking tape and frisket don't lift paint and make more work for me.
3. Fills in planking and swirl. Sometimes the tiny cracks simply fill in and do not need further painting.
4. A new coat of clear highlights low spots that need to be brought up so the playfield is dead flat. A quick run of 220 grit sandpaper over the field will show much work needed. If you see shine, that spot is low!

Hi Vid - Thank you for taking time out to share your knowledge - it is appreciated.

Is a thin coat of 2-part clear thick enough to allow one to sand without punching through to the color? What grit do you use for this?

Thank you in advance for your help!

_{Post edited by Pinterest: Oops answered one of my own questions re-reading the thread.}

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Every hand scanner I've tried is pretty janky.
If there is a good one out there, I have not tried it.
Get the HP 4670 from ebay for 30-75 bucks if you want my 2 cents.

Hey Vid - It doesn't look like this has a driver for win 7 or win 8 - does it work with win 7 or 8?

Thanks!

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
This is where you start to separate the boys from the men in playfield restoration.
Even sanding the edge of the insert is not enough.
The final step is to prime the plastic with 3M Plastic Primer.
It goes on thin like water and dries in a few seconds.
Now when you apply the epoxy, you can't chip it off.

9.jpg 36 KB

Hi Vid - thank you for sharing your expertise here - it is invaluable information and is undoubtedly saving me from making numerous costly mistakes while restoring my T2 machine. I really appreciate the value of your experience.

I understand sanding the edge of replacement inserts to give the epoxy "tooth" to stick to, but am wondering about the use of 3M plastic primer prior to gluing inserts with epoxy.

I read in this thread that isocyanates (Crazy Glue) are not preferred over epoxy because they tend to fail eventually and so may not offer a permanent solution. When researching purchase of 3M plastic primer i see on the 3M site that this primer is isocyanate based and intended to be used with isocyanates.

My question is whether it makes sense to use this product with epoxy since doing so is in effect the placing a thin layer of isocyanate between the insert and the epoxy? Won't this layer eventually fail also?

If not - one of the things proponents of using isocyanate based glues tout is that the liquid nature of the glue allows it to more fully penetrate between the insert and wood.

I - like you - tend to trust epoxy over crazy glue - as I believe it makes a stronger bond - but wondered about this when I read about the 3M plastic primer.

Thanks for this great thread - it is appreciated!

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I'm not a chemist, so I'll leave the long term explanations to someone who does that sort of thing.
What I do know is that if you put a dot of epoxy on the edge on an insert, you an easily chip it off.
If you put a dot of epoxy on the primed edge, you can't chip it off.

Whatever works I bought the primer - thanks!

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
For instance, in Photoshop just go to FILE>IMPORT>WIA>TWAIN>
Works without any actual driver, just what is built into windows.

Awesome - bought an HP 4670 Scanner on fleabay! Cant wait till it arrives! Thanks.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
There of course will be inserts that you will not need to replace or reseat.
After 20 or so years, you would think that if they were going to move, they would have already moved. And certainly there is some truth to this.
But a new clear coat is going to put new tension on the playfield that was never there before, so usually you will want to apply some glue to the back lip of those inserts.
I know, it's not as good as roughing them up and using plastic primer, but it is better than a surprise 6 months down the road.

So Vid,

So this is what my inserts look like now. (I have already cleaned them with alcohol and q-tips several times and see they still need more.)

image.jpg
image.jpg

I plan to 2PAC my playfield as soon as it gets warm enough so I can touch up the PF..I am currently gluing / re-gluing my inserts to get ready.

Do you try to "spin out" the rubbery mastic stuff (black) on the wood next to the inserts that are flat prior to re gluing them - or would it be safer to remove the insert first? I hate to take them out if I have not found a new replacement first - and I'm pretty sure that epoxy won't stick to this rubbery gook the factory used. (Gook is a technical term.). Thanks!

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Great pics, BTW.

iPhone 6 Plus rocks for pics

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I'd widen the holes on the playfield.

Vid - you are a MADMAN!

Ok - so have been following the orange conversation - because I have to touch up my T2 also.

So what is wrong with this orange?

ebay.com link: 4oz Createx Orange Transparent 5119 4Z Airbrush Paint Color

I think the Wicked Fluorescent Red is closest - and then will probably need to touch it up from there...

Ok - so I found this on Craigslist two weekends ago and finished wiring it up tonight.

image.jpg

I realize it's not a pro unit but I think I'm ready to spray - or whatever else I need to do Vid!!! It should handle my airbrush anyway.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Anything made by DeVillbiss will have parts available in the future, good score.

For $350 I couldn't pass it up

Hi Vid,

I am having a terrible time sourcing Shop-Line JC660/661 or Omni MC161 clears in the Hudson Valley NY area. Is there somewhere I can buy this product online? I have yet to find anyone in the area that even stocks it.

Thanks

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I used Google to search, and found this as the 3rd hit, although shop around, might not be the best price.......
https://www.welleauto.com/index.php/online-shopping#!/MC161-Omni-Clear-Gallon-Kit-PPG/p/50617177

They don't ship to NY and have not found another source yet... let me know if you find anywhere its available. I'd like to order some.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
There are like 20 places in OH that stock it, but I'm not familiar with NY for what's in your neighborhood.
There are 10 dealers within 25 miles of your zip code.
http://us.ppgrefinish.com/PPG-Refinish/RefinishLocator.aspx?CustomerType=17&ZipCode=12552+&QueryType=0&SearchType=1&SearchRadius=25

Vid - you rock! I ran by Kemperle at lunch today and picked up a quart of the Onmi MC161 - 2 half pints of the MH167 fast hardner - strainers - Stir Sticks - Mix cups & Lids - Box of Solvent wash & Dry Cloths.

017d655c6f106de20f1f39a8a9384e763ea1739fef.jpg

The representative at Kemperle had the DX-330 in stock but recommended that I buy a gallon of "PREP-ALL" instead of the DX-330 because they claim it works as well and a gallon is MUCH less expensive than the PPG product.

01e2033b4888eaff54476cd3f71373b09f612e2a29.jpg

Finally - he said to save money and use regular lacquer thinner to cleanup my sprayer after using it instead of the PPG general purpose solvent.

Total cost - approximately $115.00 - very reasonable and I should be able to spray several playfields with this.

Thank you for answering my questions - I do appreciate it.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
He is right. Don't ever waste money on fancy solvents (that are probably lacquer thinner anyway)

How much was it? How much was a gallon?

$24/Quart - $22/Quart if you buy a gallon ($88/Gallon)
$21 / 8oz. Fast Hardner (Need 2 for a quart)
Prep-All $14/Gallon
8oz. mixing cups .56 ea.
8oz. mixing cup lids .48 ea.
100 Count Solvent Wash Rags - $21

I want a full report if it really cleaned out all the silicone from the playfield.....
Looks like a nice haul!

You know it! Now I just need to finish gluing inserts and plan to spray a coat this weekend so I can start touch ups!!

Oh, ran by Harbor Freight after that - this buffer is on sale for $29.00 with a coupon through the end of July - crazy cheap - and the pads are on sale too!

http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/polishers/7-in-10-amp-variable-speed-polisher-60626.html

Ok - so I tried that Klean-Strip Prep-All - (cheap dewaxer) today. Just soaked a rag in this stuff, wiped the playfield down with a very wet coat and then wiped it off with clean prep wipes while it was still wet. To be fair - I had previously wiped the playfield down with Naptha before starting this process - but it worked well and I had no problems with Fisheye.

Note to self: be a bit better prepared next time and don't mix in the garage on my bench and spray in the driveway. I didn't build a spray booth for this - but will do so next time before I put a final coat on because I did get more dust in the clear than I expected. A bug tried to drink my 2PAC and got stuck. Was able to suck him out while it was still wet with my eyedropper)

Next time I will mount my gun holder to the wall right where I'm spraying and have everything I need setup on a table within reach of my breathing air hose - this time I had to keep disconnecting to run back and forth to mix more product, etc and will probably get a horrible cancer or something from this stuff. (I'm kidding I was pretty careful to disconnect away from my immediate work area - but it was a horrible PIA.)

image_25333.jpg

Here is a picture of the playfield right after I finished spraying.

01f59920eb93e8168618e079b7ade4369b4b9a3f19_00001.jpg

This picture shows the "ball trail" groove in the playfield that I built up a bit with my trusty eyedropper before I coated the rest of it.

01242d30d4e57ada88c6cfc10618103534590e2ec6.jpg

I had a few other places that were low and I built up also.

011ca76166206ef2e4709ff26366889b8170a1f97a.jpg

So Vid, I have never worked with Omni 2-PAC before - how long do I need to wait before I can block sand the playfield flat?

image_18332.jpg

Will 240 grit work ok for this or should I use a more aggressive grit (e.g. 120?) to flatten this out before I start airbrushing?

I cannot thank you enough for your assistance - I am so impressed with how easy this was to do and how the 2 PAC makes the colors pop!! (Already thinking about how nice my JM will look and how smooth it will play with a freshly clear coated playfield!

Quoted from CaptainNeo:
I use 600 grit. 240 is too course. You will have to deep of groves for the next layer and will see it in the next layer. 400-600 is the best. Especially for breaking through. Otherwise you will break through fast before you have a chance to catch yourself, and then you have a bunch of touchups to do.

Thanks for your feedback - I ordered some 400 yesterday after Vid replied - and I have some 600 here too if I need to smooth out the 400 sanding.

Vid - I am trying to match the playfield yellow-brown color of the wood. Do you have any tips regarding how you mix this to match? I have started with transparent sand and tried to darken it slightly with transparent dark brown. I have tried starting with an opaque white base and then added dark brown and a touch of purple. Ugh! This is a tough color to match!

What colors to you use to mix this and what are the approximate proportions? Please help!!

Thanks!

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I don't see an attached pic, but use different shades of Shellac until you match it up.
Don't try a "patch" of Shellac, try to shade it all one color all the way to the edge of the next color or graphic.

Shellac_shades.png

You mix shellac in a white base of createx paint? That's how you color match paint to touch up the repaired holes in the playfield?

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
No, I would not do that.
Shellac is usually dissolved in alcohol.

My question must not have been clear. I am trying to match the playfield wood color where I had to fill damage with epoxy putty. Also need to paint the shooter lane because I am unable to sand all of the dirt out.

Can you please walk through your basic formula (color of createx paint and approximate percentage of each) I am trying to "dial in" the light wood color and having a horrible time doing so.

Thank you!

Ok - so like Minnpinn i'm trying to get my playfield done before the cold weather hits. Looked pretty good at first blush.

01d3faebc1062664bd4ec2e20fd2a7b25dfb8eebff.jpg

Unlike him - I then noticed a different problem.

I was a bit worried about how hot the clear would be over the top of my touch ups - so on Saturday I sprayed two "dust" coats 30 minutes apart and then sprayed a full coat on Sunday when it got warm enough.

First, where I cut the frisket I ended up cutting into the playfield slightly - and it transmitted through the clear a bit. I'm not too worried about this - I figure after I block out the playfield I'll just fill it in before I re-clear it. Yes?

This is what really sucks.

Only two places (no where else) my touchups wrinkled even though I took precautions by spraying two "dust" coats first. Guess 2 were not enough? Anyway - this is what it looks like. It wrinkled to the right of my T-800 and under the small red arrows on the left.
0113a1cf90ba230c28bb9988538118b06d6563c21f.jpg
01a6edaab671ddb9b5809211c19df4730efacdafc1.jpg

I figured I'd wait a couple of days for the clear to harden, block it out flat, dropper fill any of the low spots and then give it another coat?

Is that the correct approach?

I really appreciate your advice.

This thread sucks without VID -but like everything he does - he did it with class quietly fading into the background.

Quoted from Radius118:
Ok so what happened to Vid?

No idea - he's just been MIA.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Yep, just sand it out, no problem.

The decals wrinkled?
I can't tell from the photos.

No - the touch up paint wrinkled - but only in the two places. Weird huh? It didnt' wrinkle anywhere else.

It sanded out fine though - and hoping for another warm weekend before the winter to finish this so I can get it back together.

I have been posting on the progress here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-first/page/2#post-2723373

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Do NOT keep sanding away wood like this:
http://www.treasurecovepinball.com/shooter-lane-repair.htm

WTF Vid!?!?! - he DOES say not to use a machine polisher or you can damage the lacquer!

Quoted from BJM-Maxx:
I am going to ask a dumb question but bear with me. If I want to drip liquid clear into a depression (see 4 posts up) is liquid clear still unsafe indoors to use? I would not be spraying, just using an eye dropper.

Yes - unsafe at any speed indoors.

That said, and although I don't recommend it - I have found I can fill in my garage with a fan blowing across the playfield and out an open window at the end of my workbench.

Quoted from lb1:
I got the same and they did not seem to fully clean with mineral spirits. Next I will try these disposable ones amazon.com link »

I have used these - they work great and no cleanup - just throw 'em away when done.

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Vid's Guide to Ultimate Playfield Restoration

By vid1900

11 years ago

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