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Post #6 Removing mylar and the adhesive left behind. Don't clear over it. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #7 Playfield damage assessment. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #8 Insert damage assessment. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #15 Removing inserts, step one - cut around it so you don't remove artwork with the insert. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #23 Removing inserts, step two - how to heat it, what to push it out with. Don't remove them if you're not replacing them. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #26 How a playfield is made and why your new inserts must be sanded flat before installation. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #34 How to sand your new inserts flat. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #35 Cleaning old glue out of the insert holes. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #36 Removing old mastic with a burr tool on a rotary device such as a Dremel. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

Post #37 Prep your insert for gluing by sanding it with 100 grit. Epoxy can be chipped off the insert without this step. Posted by vid1900 (11 years ago)

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Some advice please - even if it's "Don't even think about it - just clean, wax and play"

Working on a Jacks Open. Quarantine + working from home has led me to tearing things down for cleaning to a larger degree than I have with prior machines. Playfield is currently completely torn down. I cleaned the playfield with naphtha tonight and things are OK if not great. There are some swirls that I don't like but I can live with them. I prefer to let naphtha do what it can, mayyyyybe a little novus 2, and leave it at that. Magic eraser scares the crap out of me.

Unfortunately, the previous non adhesive pop bumper mylars were pretty dirty underneath and did a number on the paint around the bumpers:
IMG_7550 (resized).JPG
IMG_7551 (resized).JPG

There are a few other spots here and there similar to this:
IMG_7553 (resized).JPG

Worst to me since it was my fault - there's some damage from removing lane guides:
IMG_7555 (resized).JPG

I'd really like to do a little touch up paint on these defects. BUT - I live in an apartment. Easiest method for me would be touching up with a brush by hand. I know there are cheapo air brushes available at Harbor Freight, but I'm not even sure what I'd do for air. This would more or less be the only time I would need it so even the cheapest compressor seems a ridiculous expense. The real issue is that again - I live in an apartment. I have absolutely NO means of clearing over any touch up paint. It's a non starter.

So - do I have any options that won't end up being more trouble than their worth? Can you even use (I assume) some acrylic paint to cover little spots like this and not have it looks like crap if you're only able to wax over it when done? Well, the areas near the bumpers would be re-covered with mylar at least.

Or - is the smart answer just "Clean that thing up as best you can, wax/reassemble things and don't worry about it?

Edit : oh yeah. The inserts are also a bit sunk. Nothing horrible, and something I can live with, but similar related question:
IMG_7556 (resized).JPG
Is there any eye dropper method for filling in inserts like this that wouldn't be a disaster if you're unable to clear over the entire playfield afterwards?

Quoted from TheLaw:
Easily touch those spots up with a brush, 100%. You'd be able to paint each color on the side and the black in the middle.
Areas like that blue pop, get your god blue color mixed, brush a little, smear it with your finger fills in spots like that nice. Same with the red in the middle of a PF

Thanks - doesn't seem too hard or daunting. I know I'll likely not get a perfect match color wise due to inability and paints drying differently anyway, but I still want to proceed considering how small the spots are. I assume the smear with a finger technique would help a lot with blending as well.

Any recommendations on paint for an attempt like this? Read someone's post about a brand called Deco Art Americana, but really have no ideas myself.

edit - no idea if this will even be helpful, but my wife has a set of Pantone cards she uses for print work. Assuming I can get RGB/CMYK codes for close matches to the playfield, is there a way to order small amounts of custom colors? Or will I be limited to "go buy the closest blue/red/purple and try to lighten/darken as best you can."?

Quoted from pinballinreno:
Sunken inserts lead to edge wear and erratic ball play.
Id do the whole thing right.
Jacks open is a great game and deserves a total restore.

Agreed on all points, but again - I have no ability to clear a playfield. If my wife didn't kill me for trying to set up a paint tent in the middle of the apartment, the fumes or landlord surely would.

The more I've read about the eye dropper technique as well as the cost of the clear - I'm afraid the inserts are likely staying as is. I've certainly played on worse ones in the past.

Quoted from TheLaw:
What I would do is start with a createx opaque set from wherever
amazon.com link »
Your standard colors can be mixed pretty well for a lot of area; but once you start getting in to the purple area it's a little tougher.
So starting with the basics and then adding in acrylic bottles for a closer match can help. Decoart Americana is a fine paint to use.
You can also take your matches to Michaels or whatever and try to match them as close as possible. Pick up a cool brush whilst you're there in the painting section, not crafting. Princton Liners are nice.
Maybe someone knows a good off the shelf purple for Gottliebs?

Forgive my ignorance. Are you saying pick up a set of the Createx primary colors and try to mix my own custom colors? Adding cheaper acrylics to hone in on what I'm looking for?

Quoted from DropTarget:
I use pantone cards as well. Sometimes you can get pretty close with them. Usually I find I need something that is between two colors. BUT the problem is that Pantone colors are for ink. When I've tried to buy matching paint, I've found that paint pigments won't reproduce the Pantone card colors. They will may get close though. If your paint shop employee has a good eye and a lot of experience, they may be able to tweak the result to get closer.

You post loaded as I was responding to TheLaw.

I was able to find really close matches to the blue and purple with the Pantone cards. And something a hair too light and a hair too dark for the red. Wasn't really thinking of going to a paint store to having things mixed since I literally need an ounce or less of each color. Just hoping to take the cards to a Michaels/Blicks/etc and find something as close as possible. Unless buying something like the Creatix and attempting to mix my own is the way to go.

Quoted from TheLaw:
Correct.
The acrylics are great, and come in way more colors. Sometimes you can get a spot on match. But I think Gottlieb the red & blue are easy with createx primaries.

Well, Michael's was a bust. The in store selection was pretty lacking. There's a Blick nearby that I assume would have a lot more to choose from - will have to check it over the weekend. Wouldn't mind trying to mix my own with the createx, but I guess I'm a bit intimidated by not having a clue where to start / what to mix to get what I want.

Quoted from TheLaw:
Well the red on there is probably straight red primary, give it take a little yellow or white.

Buying the Createx primary set after all. Babbling about this project to (at) my wife and she mentions "Uhh, you know I took color theory classes and things like that in college, right?" She's great and actually enjoys the rare occasion when she can help me with pinball stuff. Anyway - she's exactly the kind of person that can start with a basic primary blue and know what to add to it to get it where you want it to be.

May very well be able to find a premix that's pretty close to what I need, but the added flexibility of mixing my own is too tempting. Thanks for all the advice - much appreciated.

Quoted from Silverstreak02:
Most of these colors were a custom mix from the primary colors.[quoted image]

Recognize the photo - have looked through your thread before a couple times. Looks great.

Stopped by Blicks yesterday and picked up the Createx opaque primary set and a few other things. Wife will be attempting the color matching this afternoon.

Procedural question.

Picked up a Ship Ahoy a week or so ago. Most of the inserts were all but not connected anymore - came right out when I ran a dustbuster over the playfield when I was tearing down the top side. The few that didn't come out instantly popped right out with the slightest tap from the underside.

I cleaned things up as best I could and followed a few videos from youtube. Glued the inserts back in with wood glue, leveling them down with a heavy flat piece of wood. Guess I was lazy though and just pressed them down into place by hand, and didn't use a clamp. Unfortunately a number of them raised up a bit as the glue dried.

Now I've been going back over them with one of the 12" deep clamps from Harbor Freight and trying to get them back level.

What I've tried:
Heating up the insert with a hair dryer from the bottom (mostly) with a bit of heat at the top as well. I've gotten the glue hot enough that I can feel the insert move a bit while pressing on them. Then used the clamp with a piece of hard flat wood on the top of the playfield and a large flat washer that covers the entire hole on the underside. (The underside of the playfield is still fully populated, so space is an issue.) I've tightened the insert down and they feel really level to the touch.

However, most of them then proceed to raise back up.

Next, I tried the same thing, but before applying the clamp, I added a small bit of super glue to the underside of the insert. Clamped it down for anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour. Remove the clamp, and things seem really level again, but soon enough - some of the inserts raise back up a bit.

I'm wondering now if it might be best to heat the insert, clamp it down, THEN apply some super glue and re-clamp it at that point for long enough for the super glue to dry. I was previously just using some random super glue that I had lying around but just bought some loctite gel that I had seen recommended in another thread.

So any advice on how to get these dumb inserts to stay down? Is the heat -> clamp -> glue -> re-clamp a decent idea? Suggestions if not?

Quoted from alexmogil:
I think the wood glue is a bit of a problem. Can you clean out the insert holes and use epoxy? The first page of the thread shows the best way to handle inserts - sand them, sand the sides, use plastic primer, use epoxy. Once they get set the inserts will not move much.

If I were starting from scratch, I would But it's too late for that and everything I've read says trying to get them back out at this point is a bad idea.

They're wood glued in, but some have raised. Heating them does make it so I can press down on them, just don't seem to be able to locked them back in once they're pressed flat.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Unfortunately, most wood glues simply do not bond with plastic.
Just like if you asked me how to weld Aluminum to Steel, I would not have any **easy** answers.
If it were in my shop, I'd probably warm, then Xacto around the proud inserts and cut them free - then follow standard insert gluing procedures
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration#post-551287

Thanks, Vid. (and Alexmogil)

I'm so frustrated with myself for not reading more before diving in. I honestly think this would have worked fine, but I stupidly didn't think to clean old glue out of the holes before regluing the inserts down. I assume that's a part of the issue. It's not the end of the world or anything.

For what it's worth, this isn't a table that I'm going to clear or anything. As with the last time I wrote in this thread - I live in an apartment and have no means of clearcoating without killing myself with fumes. This is another case of trying to make things as nice as I can with space and budget limitations.

So I think I'm left with the terrifying thought of getting about half of the inserts back out without breaking any (see above - if I have to install a new insert I'm up a creek.) or just using the clamp on them, hoping for the best and placing mylar circles over the ones that don't stay down in order to minimize any wear caused by the ball hitting the little raised edges. Hell, considering the center of the playfield on Ship Ahoy / Buccaneer - I may just put down one large circle over the entire ship's wheel.

Quoted from alexmogil:
Well... if you have the time and patience (and a little luck) and you really can't get the inserts out without destroying them, is there any plastic of the inserts still exposed underneath the insert holes? You could try and use epoxy on the exposed parts, THEN clamping them down and see if the epoxy will hold the inserts in place. Almost like you're re-enforcing inserts that are loose:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration#post-551439

Before calling it a night last night I did try something a little different. Heated an insert up for a bit, applied a bit of locktite gell around the bottom edge of the insert from below and then clamped things down and left it. Will be clamped 20 or so hours before I remove it tonight. If there any chance of the inserts staying down, this will have to be the technique. Not holding my breath though.

Pending the results, since I can never really leave well enough alone so I'm going to try to remove one tonight and see how it goes. I have been able to heat them up enough to feel a little give to them before clamping, so I assume/hope sticking with the heat a little longer followed by a nut driver or socket from below should give me the ability to pop them back out.

Figure I'll start with one without any text on it so if the worst does happen it will be a bit easier to replace.

Welp. I guess I'm gonna do it right or not at all.

Three cheers for having the type of personality that would have always been annoyed about things if I hadn't tried to do this better.

The upside of wood glue not bonding to plastic for shit - they weren't hard to get out at all. No cracks, no issues, no fuss no muss.
IMG_8630 (resized).JPG

Thanks for the advice again. Gonna do it right this time.

OK - trying to get my ducks in a row before re-doing the inserts.

This has been asked in the thread DOZENS of times, but most of the questions and answers are years old and links aren't working. The grainger.com one is no longer good, and what looks to be the perfect match on Amazon isn't available:
https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-Weld-62728-Instant-Adhesive/dp/B071JC9PYP

So, like a ton of people, I'm having trouble tracking down the 3m AC77 primer that Vid recommends.
Anyone with a current 2021 source in a size less than gallons? Or a suitable replacement / alternative?

Dumb question.

I started cleaning out old glue from insert holes tonight. Original that I failed to do the first time as well as wood and super glue from my botched attempt.

How far down should inserts sit in the cleaned out holes? Should they naturally sit flush with the playfield before you glue them in or would you expect them to ride a little high, ending up flush once clamped?

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
If they sit flush, and don't need to be clamped; you can get more done at one time.

OK - good to know. A bit late in the day here and I have terrible light in my place. Was getting hard to tell where the dried glue ends and the wood begins and didn't want to overdo it. Will get back to it tomorrow when I have way better light.

Quoted from cookpins:
What should I be looking for in the formula? And is this the brand you got off Amazon? I've not used it before but assume its all the same as Klean Strip[quoted image]

That's the brand I've always found at Menards in MN and never had any issues with it in my limited uses.

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Vid's Guide to Ultimate Playfield Restoration

By vid1900

11 years ago

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