Vid's Guide to Ultimate Playfield Restoration

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#776 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

THE PROPER CHOICE FOR CLEAR COATING

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So above, we ran through all the choices of what we don't want to use to clear a playfield, so what CAN we use?

2 Part Auto Clear (2PAC).

2PAC is the stuff the pros use (and soon you will too).

It REALLY protects the playfield from wear.

It does not yellow.

It makes the playfield colors pop.

It has UV blockers to keep your painted or printed repairs from fading at a different rate than the rest of the paints.

It is hard in an hour, and crazy hard in a week.

It is ready for another coat in 5 minutes.

It buffs to the highest shine (although you can latter knock down the shine to match older EMs, if you want)

It is compatible with acrylic paints and Waterslide decals commonly used for repair.

It can be used to fill in cupped or shrunken inserts so they are level with the rest of the playfield.

It can be mixed with different hardeners so the speed that it catalyzes can be controlled.

There is currently no better clearcoat choice available on the market.

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#777 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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There are probably 100 different 2PAC brands and formula on the market, so what do I recommend ?

PPG JC660 (or it's plain labeled cousin "Omni 161" )

It is the most forgiving 2PAC I've found for the beginner. Literally, a beginner can lay down a layer of this stuff their first time out, with a $12 HVLP gun and stand back and say DA-HAMMMMMM!

It is available everywhere PPG paints are sold (over 2000 dealers in the USA).

It has 3 different speeds of hardener.

It is less "hot" than the old DuPont Imron DiamondPlate that Williams used to use (I have 5 gallons of DP, and it is HOT stuff).

Vapors are very toxic

http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheets/PPG/Automotive/Shopline/JC661.pdf

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Now, like I said, there are 100s of other choices and experienced auto painters are all going to religiously preach about their favorite brand. If someone is familiar with another brand and how it lays up, or has a friend who gets it "free" at work, or got laid once because they cleared their Trans-Am with it, more power to them.

JC660l.jpg

Post last edited 6 years ago.

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#785 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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STUFF YOU ARE GOING TO NEED TO CLEAR A PLAYFIELD.

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1-718.jpg

You are gong to need a pile of stuff to clear a playfield. Even if you are not going to clear anything today, you might as well start getting all your supplies in order.

The first chemical you are going to need is Naphtha. It is usually sold as VM&P Naphtha (Varnish Maker & Painter's Naphtha). It has little odor, but is a carcinogen, so you need to wear your chem mask while using it. Naphtha evaporates very fast and won't dissolve our playfield touch-up work. We clean everything with Naphtha before we clear.

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The next chemical you need is Lacquer Thinner. This is nasty stuff that dissolves many finishes. We use it to clean our spray guns, eye droppers, measuring cups, spills. DON'T use Lacquer Thinner to clean your playfield. Lacquer Thinner is a mega carcinogen, so again, chem mask needed during use.

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Next you need the Clearcoat itself and the hardener. Unlike Poly, the 2PAC will not just air dry. The hardener acts as a catalyst and chemically turns the clearcoat hard as a rock. You must be very careful to never even get a drop of the hardener into the can of clearcoat - if you do, in about a month the entire can will turn into a solid cube of plastic. So again, do not dip an eyedropper into one can and then use it in the other!

The clear is mixed with the hardener in a 2 ratio, so a half cup of clear to a quarter cup of hardener. Or 10 drops of clear to 5 drops of hardener if you are mixing small batches to level inserts.

Don't mix the clear in any old plastic or foam cup, because the clear will become contaminated as it melts the plastic. Use a glass measuring cup and do it right. The store you buy the clear at will have disposable plastic measuring cups that are solvent safe, but I like to reuse the glass and keep the plastic out of the landfill.

Most of the time I use the Medium speed hardener, but the fast can be useful when we don't want to have decals dissolve, or we don't want out-gassing bubbles in old Bally playfield inserts (more on that latter). So you might buy a small can of Fast hardener to have on hand along with the Medium.

The clear contains super toxic Isocyanates (as the names implies, it contains cyanide) so you don't want to breathe it into your lungs. Isocyanates don't have a smell, so the company that makes the clear adds the most horrific smell to the formula. It smells like a mixture of Chlorine and Puke. If your chem-mask is leaking, you will know it!

Yes, I've seen the videos on Youtube with the guy shooting 2PAC with just a "10 cent dust mask", but that is the most insane thing I've ever seen. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT.

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paint-respirator.jpg

Next you need the all important Chem-mask. You can get one at the store that sells you the clear for $29. Home Depot sells an Isocyanate rated mask, but it is not with the other dust masks, it's in the isle with the Mold abatement products. Don't ask me why.

You need to wear the Chem-mask anytime you spray clear, rattle can paint, work with solvents (Naphtha, Toluene, Lacquer Thinner...) or sand painted cabinets (commercial products continued to use lead paint well into the 2000s - you can safely assume any pinball cabinet is painted with lead paint). Do not sand pinball cabinets in your basement or garage - you will NEVER get the lead dust out.

Your Chem-mask only works if it is sealed to your face. That means you need to shave the day of the spraying. That means you people with fancy facial hair are going to need to shave the mask's pattern through it.

You need to keep the mask in it's thick zip-lock bag when not in use. The chem part of the mask lasts about 40 hours of use, and then you can start to smell the stench of the clear. Don't continue if you can smell the clear - stop and replace the cartridges!

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If you start clearing playfields all the time, it makes sense to switch to a full hood that supplies outside air . The $350 cost of the hood will pay for itself in replacement cartridges and it is much more comfortable to wear. You can even wear it with a full beard.

SAR.JPG

Next you need some packs of Tackcloths. Tackcloths are Cheesecloth covered in resin that grabs even the smallest particles of dust. Even stuff that won't blow off with the Airgun, will be removed by the Tackcloth.

tackcloth.jpg

You will need some fine 500 or 600 grit sandpaper. You need to rough up the existing surface so the clear has some "tooth". Once the 1st layer is down, you can use finer 800 grit sandpaper between coats. It's that first coat that really needs some tooth.
800 grit.jpg

An Airgun or Blowgun attaches to your air compressor hose and lets you blow off fine dust out of the nooks, slots and holes. It is also great for blowing 40 years of dust and mold spores out of old cabinets (do this outside, not in your garage).

blowgun.jpg

Post last edited 3 years ago.

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#797 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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Quoted from Anth:
The clear I would need for this would preferably be able to be purchased in very small quantities and shot through an airbrush. Any recommendations on what I should use?

I don't know where you would find small quantities of 2PAC.

Maybe ask here on Pinside if anyone local can hook you up.

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#799 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Yeah, I've been working on the road, so although I can do playfield touch ups and circuit boards in my hotel room, I can't really do 2PAC.

I did finally get a few days to do some clearing - lots more pics and details soon.

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#803 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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2PAC hardens on it's own, and does not have to chemically melt the underlying layer.

You just lightly sand the old playfield with 800 grit to give the 2PAC some tooth and you are good to go.

You can always test under the apron for compatibility with iffy past coatings.

Every factory coating I've covered with 2PAC has worked fine.

Only trouble makers are junky past "repairs" like Testor's paints, Paint Markers, Sharpie pens or people who put silicone on the playfield like Pledge or Millwax.

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#833 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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CUPPED INSERT REPAIR

================================================

Before we clear a playfield, we often need to repair it first.

One common problem is cupped inserts.

Common pinball folklore says that hot, incandescent bulbs melted the cupped inserts; but even NOS playfields have them, so that can't be the case.

Old inserts that are not reinforced with jeweling, will simply cup from being made too thin and the pressure of the surrounding wood.

You almost never see a cupped jeweled insert.

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Q: Shouldn't I take them out and sand them flat?

A: No, they are too thin already.

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Q: Shouldn't I take them out, heat them up and flatten them again?

A: It's risky and they will cup again in a few years.

We want to avoid removing inserts whenever possible. Many styles have not be made in years, so you are unlikely to find replacements should you break one during removal.

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So what do the pros do? They fill the cupping with 2PAC.

This reinforces the insert, making it stronger, and less likely to cup further.

We also know that the cupping fix is compatible with our clearcoat.

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#835 9 years ago

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vid1900

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So first we epoxy all the inserts from the back of the playfield to keep them from moving once they are heated by the lights.

Any inserts that are proud of the playfield are heated up and pressed back in flat with a 12" C-clamp, and then glued:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration

Then we take some 800 grit sandpaper and sand off the gloss. This gives some tooth to the 2PAC so it does not "ghost" .

Don't sand too much or you will wear away the paint on the insert. There is VERY little clear coat on these old playfields.

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#836 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Blow off any sanding dust and then clean out the insert and the surrounding area with Naphtha. Once you clean it with Naphtha, don't get any oily fingerprints or dust near the insert.

Put your respirator on and find a glass substrate to mix the 2PAC on. You can use an upside down pickle jar.

Using 2 different glass eyedroppers, drip the correct ratio of Clear & Hardener onto the mixing surface.

Remember not to get even a single drop of hardener into the can of clear, or the whole can of clear will become a cube of plastic in a month. This is why we use 2 different eye droppers.

Depending on how many inserts you have to fill, you need to mix up your clear, by counting drops. Each insert might need 12 drops of clear, so your ratio might be 10 drops clear : 5 drops hardener.

Use the fastest curing hardener you can for this. The faster it cures, the less chance of any outgassing from the insert (more on this latter).

Mix up the clear and then let it sit for 5 minutes to allow any bubbles to dissipate.

Draw the clear up into an eyedropper without creating any bubbles.

"Draw" around the edge of the insert with the clear, so as you fill it, the clear will climb to the very top edge.

Overfill the insert slightly, it will get sanded flush.

Suck out, or drag out any air bubbles with the eyedropper.

You can fill in the valley between the inserts and the playfield with this same technique.

CUPPED-3.jpg

Once the 2PAC had hardened, you can then sand it flat with the rest of the playfield.

Post last edited 8 years ago.

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#839 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Quoted from UvulaBob:
But I'm more concerned about the conditions under which Varathane would make someone regret not putting in the effort to use ACC (whether self-applied or paying a local business to do it). What kind of degredation have people started to see after two years? Five years? Ever?

You don't even have to wait 2 years, the moment the Varathane dries, you see that all the colors are now dulled down.

Then once you start playing the game, you see how fast ball trails start cutting through the Varathane.

Quoted from UvulaBob:
Varathane is considerably cheaper, money and effort-wise if not time-wise, to apply to a playfield than automotive clear coat.

Time wise, 2PAC is much faster.

Varathane takes probably 10 coats to build up as much film as a single coat of 2PAC.

And, that coat of 2PAC is dry in a hour. How long would it take 10 coats of Varathane to apply and dry?

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Varathane is good to let your kids use on an art project, but it looks terrible on floors and is not suitable for pinball playfields.

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#841 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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Quoted from UvulaBob:
Much like the agonizing wait for the next book in a certain sweeping medieval fantasy series, I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for Vid to get to the part where he tells us how long to wait after a given coat before we can sand it down and apply the next one.

Every brand of 2PAC is different, and every brand has different speed hardeners that can be used with it. So like George Martin would say, YMMV.

Many restorers sand the next day. If you wait a week, it is much harder to sand.

If your last coat came out perfect you might not even need to sand at all, wait 15 minutes and top coat it.

Sometimes the last coat comes out perfect, and you don't even have anything to buff out.

2PAC tends to "wall up" around holes in the playfield, so you may end up sanding to make the playfield dead flat.

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#843 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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For many people, a good single coat of 2PAC is all they need and they would be very happy with the results.

It would be better than any factory clearcoat.

For others, spraying, flattening and buffing to absolute perfection is their goal.

Quoted from UvulaBob:
The alternative is buying a big compressor,

A big compressor is a great workshop dream, but remember, you can do it with a cheap 28 gallon too.

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#844 9 years ago

BOB

UvulaBob

Pinside member

Revere, MA

10y 33,900 750

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
For many people, a good single coat of 2PAC is all they need and they would be very happy with the results.

What, whaaa? /mindblown

It's possible that I've been conflating the Varathane clear coat process with the 2PAC process. With Varathane, you need to sand in between each coat, right?

Meanwhile, I have also seen the video of the guy using 2PAC to coat his playfield with a ten-cent dust mask. (If it's the guy I'm thinking of, he's a big fan of "Noovis 2".) He puts down, like, five coats with copious amounts of wet sanding in between. Are you saying that I might not need to do all that work? That a single coat (after that initial light coat to lock down wood fibers and lay the touch-ups on top of) would probably do it?

I'll just wait for your next update and see how the pro does it.

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#847 9 years ago

ISM

mac622

Pinside+ Frequent

Green Village, NJ

12y 54,900 483 4

This is somewhat OT but type of wax do you recommend and how long should you wait before applying to make sure the 2PAC is fully cured?

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#848 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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Quoted from mac622:
This is somewhat OT but type of wax do you recommend and how long should you wait before applying to make sure the 2PAC is fully cured?

The 2PAC cures chemically rather than by evaporation, so it's not like Poly where you have to wait a month.

Different brands require different cure times.

Try putting your nose next to it and see if it still stinks. If it does not smell like solvent, wax with Blitz 1 Grand and then populate.

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#861 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Q: Does this happen with all playfields?
A: Once DiamondPlate coatings started to be used in the 1990s, Outgassing was not as much of a problem. The DiamondPlate is much more compatible.

Q: Why is it more of a problem with NOS playfields, rather than all playfields of that era?
A: Usually the factory topcoat is already worn off, or mostly worn off on well used playfields. If you scrape the old lettering off, and replace it with a decal, there is no topcoat to react with anyway.

Q: Does it matter what clearcoat I use?
A: Yes, the slower the cure time, the more chance of Outgassing. Always use the fastest hardener for your first coat over a NOS playfield. Never use DiamondPlate clear on old NOS playfields, it is WAY TOO HOT and ALWAYS creates Insert Blooming.

Q: Could I protect the insert with a water based clear first to guard it from the 2PAC.
A: No, I've tried that, and it does not work at all.

Q: Does it always happen?
A: No, it is hit and miss. You can test an insert near the back of the playfield and check it in a week .

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#863 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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So what can we do?

I know some restorers spray and pray - then grind out the outgassing. But I'm going to teach you to preemptively strike, saving massive time and energy.

We are going to quickly and efficiently clean off the old topcoat, so there is nothing for the 2PAC to react with.

How do we do this without chipping up the Keylining surrounding the insert?

With an Acrylic Template with various sized holes.

A 1/4" thick piece of acrylic is ideal. You can see through it for alignment, and it drills cleanly with Forstner bits.

Make one with a bunch of common insert sizes.

3.jpg

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#869 9 years ago

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vid1900

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On Arrows or other inserts that you don't have a template for, lightly cut just inside of the Keyline with an Xacto knife, so that you don't accidentally take a chip of keylining out along with the topcoat. You will feel the Xacto cut with the tip of your chisel.

On inserts with lettering, weigh the risk of trimming around the letter, with the risk of Insert Blooming. Test the 2PAC on an insert near the back if in doubt.

Small scratches from the chisel can be left alone, they actually give the clearcoat more tooth and will fill in just fine once cleared.

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#880 9 years ago

CMW

KloggMonkey

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11y 47,150 764

I've pounded down screw 'mounds' like show above, but there is still some variability in the smoothness those areas.
When clear coating is it like filling a swimming pool where the top is an even layer regardless of the bumpiness below?

Also should I 600 grit sand, then fill cupped inserts with 2PAC before the light coat prior to color touch-ups?
Or is the pre-touchup light coat put on before any insert filling?

Regardless the next step would be to 600 grit to give tooth to whatever is next right?

Getting close to clearing time and want everything right

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#893 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Quoted from Lonzo:
Will the inkjet still fade under Auto clear? I thought it had UV protection. I have a playfield with inkjet decals on it that was auto cleared a couple of years ago and still looks as good as the day I did it. Of course all machines are in a pretty dark room as well. I am still going to look in to a Laser printer for future decals.

Someone told me that genuine Epsom inks don't fade because they are pigmented rather than dye based.

2PAC is good for UV protection, but I've seen inkjet fade anyway.

But printer manufacturers could change their formulas at any time, so YMMV for sure.

The Declaration of Independence is under UV glass, but it's still fading......

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#949 9 years ago

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vid1900

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FLATTENING THE PLAYFIELD BETWEEN COATS:

========================================

Everyone has the idea in their head that each coat of clear "fills in" or "levels off" dips and depressions in the playfield, but that is not true at all.

There is a cohesion tension that breaks up the surface tension of the clearcoat and causes it to wall up around holes and slots.

You need to sand down this build up between EVERY coat of clear.

Also, little dips in the playfield around pop bumper nails, sunken inserts and fisheyes will not just fill in by spraying over them. You need to de-gloss these areas, and fill them using an eyedropper with 2PAC.

-

Here we have the first coat of clear on a playfield.

I've gently sanded it with some 800 grit paper on a sanding pad to show any low spots. The sanding pad is flat so it really makes the low spots evident. If you sanded by hand, the sandpaper would just follow the contour of the playfield, never showing how uneven it is.

Note the insert that "felt" flat to my hand before clearcoating, now shows it is sunken and needs to be filled. I'll rough it up with sandpaper by hand, and fill it with an eyedropper.

Note the build up of clear around the drop target slot. This I'll sand back to flat before the next coat of clear.

IMG_9441.jpg

Here again we see some shiny low spots around the pop bumper nails and just a random dent in the field. You can see that the tip of the 3rd arrow insert has a low spot in front of it too.

IMG_9442.jpg

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#971 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Quoted from REMPins:
The 4 inserts along the top are cuped causing the ball to atually sit on them if its rolling slow enough, sanding them flat is not an option... I don't want to loose the image.

You never want to sand down cupped inserts, they are already too thin - that's why they cupped in the first place.

Gently de-gloss them to give the clear some "tooth" and then fill them with 2PAC.

Once they dry, sand them flat and your new reinforced inserts will be ready for action.

Detailed directions about 2/3rds down:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/17

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#985 9 years ago

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vid1900

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Quoted from flugs:
I can clearly feel a "plastic" type something on top of the insert and when I press on it, I can here a noise as if it is glued (this is at places where there is no mylar). Is this "plastic" the layer from the silkscreen (maybe this is a dump question, but I do not know much about this)).

Let's see a close up picture or two.

The ancient silkscreen overcoat would not have any tackiness 30 years latter, so I'm not sure about the sound.

Quoted from flugs:
If I will be lucky and able to remove the mylar, could I clearcoat the playfield or should I place new mylar?

Clearcoat would be the best, but new Mylar is easier/cheaper.

Quoted from flugs:
Would you advise to push the inserts a bit higher prior applying clear coat or new mylar?

You will want to push the inserts down, so they are flush with the surface of the playfield. Then glue them in place to keep them from popping up again.

You can fill all the cupped inserts with 2PAC to make them flat again, once they are glued in place.

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#988 9 years ago

OLI

flugs

Inactive member

Montech

12y 27,550 96 8 8

Salut,

Back from my playroom.
I should have looked better in the first place.
In fact there is a giant mylar over the complete playfield.
There are the marks from the original installed mylar, which is only present at some spots (I have a second playfield, which has much more wear and which I wanted to swap).

Of course as you can imagine the mylar cannot be removed without taking some paint with it.

So I will change the plan and will fix the original playfield (which has only mylar around the bumper and the slingshots).

Here some images:

Playfield wear 01.jpg
Playfield wear 02.jpg
Playfield wear 03.jpg

The inserts are cupped as well on this one, but this can be fixed by filling them up with 2PAC.
I have started to clean it a bit to get the millions of visible impacts from the ball removed (I suppose these are impacts).
Once this done I will fill and level the inserts followed by a first layer of clearcoat prior the touchups.

Anyway, your tips from this thread will help me a lot for this project (if you have additional, please let me (us) know).

Thanks again Vid.

Cheers,
flugs

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#1214 9 years ago

OP

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vid1900

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Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Sijcolo:
This is better. It looks like the wood is lifting.

First determine if the wood, or the clear is lifting.

If you are sure it is wood you can:

1. Inject CA glue under the lift, then glue it down. Many CA glues have the consistency of water, and will flow through a syringe.

http://www.woodcraft.com/search2/search.aspx?query=ca%20glue

2. If it is clear and it has not lifted under any painted graphics, you might just cut it out, and fill the dip with 2PAC.

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#1215 9 years ago

OP

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vid1900

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Sana'a

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Quoted from Rock914:
I have a nice and flat water damaged playfield, unfortunately the diamond plate clear coat is de-bonding in areas. What would be the best plan of attack as far as removing the de-bonded areas so I won't have an issue with my clear coat? Any helpnwould be greatly appreciated.

First be sure that it is the DiamondPlate lifting and not some aftermarket Mylar.

You need to remove any loose material.

Get an Xacto knife and a good magnifier lamp and cut out all loose clear.

lightly sand and feather with #800. If anything else is even thinking of letting loose, the sanding will get it started.

Spray a light coat of 2PAC and let it dry a month. That way the tension of the new clear will pull up anything (if there is anything to pull up).

If nothing terrible happens after than month, do you paint touch ups and final clear.

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#1235 9 years ago

BUR

TheRingMaster

Inactive member

Unknown City

10y 40,150 1,309

Hi there! First of all, thanks for an amazing guide!

I am doing a restoration of a bride of pinbot and I have now gotten to the playfield fixing. Need to repair some areas where the paint has worn off and also fix some yellowed areas that were outside the Mylar. Also some inserts with uneven edges. So I have removed the Mylar and all the glue and wiped it off with ME and alcohol trying to clean some areas. Done some sanding to level screw holes etc.

My question is how to prep the PF before painting. I have read the guide (but will do it again before starting) but I cant really find out if I should just paint now or if I should first clear a thin layer of 2PAC over the whole thing to settle everything? Also, should I go over everything gently with ME and alcohol to remove any old wax and things?

Thanks again, Andy

Edit: From what i understand by looking a little closer it goes like:
1. Remove mylar

2. Clean with Magic Eraser + alcohol + fix uneven screw holes, shooter lane etc.

3. Lay down a thin layer of clear to lock down the wood and prevent existing paint from lifting when the frisket is applied. (could be done in just the area that needs repainting?).

4. Do the painting and decaling

5. Clear coat it all

Sorry for taking up the time.

_{Post edited by TheRingMaster: My bad, did not read well enough =)}

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#1339 9 years ago

BUR

TheRingMaster

Inactive member

Unknown City

10y 40,150 1,309

Another question =),
I am going to fix most inserts on my BOP playfield. They have some different wear. Some are shrunken in, some are raised and some just have plenty of wear on them. I have not inspected them super careful yet but I think none of them are broken.

Anyway, when I have leveled an insert, how do I fine tune it? What i want to adress are some small chips in the paint/wood around the insert where the ball has struck while the insert was too low. (might even be some chips in some inserts too if they were raised..)

Whats the best approach to fill/fix these cracks? (especially the ones in the PF wood that resulted from a shrunk insert). Epoxy, 2PAC (Not the rapper though... ), bondo or something completely different? Also not the micro cracks on the insert glass in the middle of the space shuttle. Will that be fixed by sanding it or has the insert suffered too much UV light and will need to be replaced?

I will do a first coat of clear over the whole PF and then paint and decal the inserts and some other spots, and last lay down the final layers of clear. Im about to start this project very soon so just need to get some of these questions straight.

Here are some pics:

bopins.jpg
shuttleins.jpg

Lets hope this has not yet been adressed in the thread.. read it but cant seem to find it.

/ Andy

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#1341 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Fill the cracks with 2PAC .

The cracks in the clear coat of the shuttle can be scraped out with a razor, but you should scan the area first in case you slip and chip out the black ink. Or just scan, make a decal and scrape out the whole shuttle.

Here is a video with Tupac when he was still a background dancer for The Digital Underground:

0

#1352 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from futurepinhead:
Not deep enough to measure but deep enough to stop a fingernail when sliding across the playfield. Maybe these photos will help. It looks worse than it is, it doesn't taper down like it appears. It has one deep spot and that is very thin. It is all the way to the end of the flipper.

I'd sand and feather all the bare wood in the area.

Then lightly tone it with Shellac to match the other wood on the playfield.

Finally, fill the depression with 2PAC.

Clear the entire playfield and sand it all flat.

0

1

#1356 9 years ago

ACE

MinnPin

Inactive member

Saint Paul, MN

10y 17,150 123 1

Just filled my cupped inserts with 2pac and did my first coat of clear today. I am excited to have gotten this done...fear of doing all of this "stuff" and doing it right put me off of my restoration for probably a couple of months.

For those who are in the place I was in (worrying about getting it right)...you warm up to the process real quick. Setup and cleanup are mildly time consuming, but it already seems like old hat to me -- it was so simple.

Tomorrow - sanding, waterslide decals and coat #2.

How long after adding decals before I should hit it with coat #2?

Thanks everyone!

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#1369 9 years ago

BOB

UvulaBob

Pinside member

Revere, MA

10y 33,900 750

I got some of the 2PAC on my garage floor, and I'm not sure if my landlord will take kindly to it when we move out. Is there an easy way to remove it?

0

#1374 9 years ago

BJM

BJM-Maxx

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 58,650 876

I was wondering about adhesion of 2pac to decals. I have read the whole thread and I understand the purpose of 2pac underneath and on top of the decal. Is this true once you scale the decal's size up? Some people have been talking about some pretty large decals. You clear, then sand, then apply the decal, then more clear. You cannot sand the decal itself so the clear on top is laying on a shiny smooth plastic. Wouldn't this cause trouble in the case of a large decal?

0

#1388 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from MinnPin:
but this white bubbling occurred after the first coat of clear. I am not even concerned with the little bubbles scattered around the edges, but the big clusters of foamy white bubbling are ugly.

Take a sharp, pointed Xacto blade and open those bubbles up.

Using only the weight of the knife, gently spit the Xacto.

Vacuum up any dust and use an eyedropper to fill the bubble holes with 2PAC.

0

#1389 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from MinnPin:
In this second picture, I have highlighted two small divots in the playfield. These divots are all over the playfield after the first coat of clear. 600 grit and the block aren't getting me anywhere fast on leveling these out and I want to know how to get them out before I shoot another coat, and how they got there in the first place, so it doesn't happen on subsequent coats of clear. Presumably they are air bubbles? If so, how does one prevent this?

There are often divots all over any playfield.

Just take some worn, soft sandpaper on the tip of your finger and rough up the divot and surrounding playfield.

Fill with a drop of 2PAC.

When you shoot your next layer of clear, it will get leveled by the sander.

1

0

-1

#1390 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Curbfeeler:
Check post 954, Vid talks about these bubbles in decals. is this area a decal?

It could just be outgassing where the 2PAC has reacted with the old lacquer :

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/18

0

#1440 9 years ago

ACE

MinnPin

Inactive member

Saint Paul, MN

10y 17,150 123 1

Hi guys,

Big stupid weather related question.

I want to lay down a coat of clear or maybe two (my final coats) today. I have been trying to get all of this done before it's too late and I am stuck unable to work on my machine all winter.

It's going to be 39 degrees here today for a high. I couldn't find any information on the JC660 product sheet for temperatures of spraying 2pac. I realize colder equals longer cure time, but would I have bad results spraying in my garage at 39 degrees?

I really need to get this done before 39 becomes -9.

Thanks as always!

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#1442 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from MinnPin:
Big stupid weather related question.

I want to lay down a coat of clear or maybe two (my final coats) today. I have been trying to get all of this done before it's too late and I am stuck unable to work on my machine all winter.

It's going to be 39 degrees here today for a high. I couldn't find any information on the JC660 product sheet for temperatures of spraying 2pac. I realize colder equals longer cure time, but would I have bad results spraying in my garage at 39 degrees?

I really need to get this done before 39 becomes -9.

You risk hazing if you spray in the cold.

You need a hanging garage heater that can maintain 60 for a week or so. You also need the playfield and 2PAC to be at the same, steady temp, just like when painting cars.

0

#1444 9 years ago

ACE

MinnPin

Inactive member

Saint Paul, MN

10y 17,150 123 1

Can't really afford a hanging garage heater, plus...small garage, no place to hang. I might put a floor heater down for a few hours....the playfield is already out there and the 2pac supplies I keep inside in the work room, so...I hope that will be enough

If not, just tell me no. If I don't get this done now, I fear it sits for the whole winter. It doesn't appears as if it is getting any warmer any time soon.

0

#1488 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Make sure the high points are glued down with epoxy flush with the surface of the playfield.

Rough up the faces (as much as you can without ruining the art) and drip 2PAC into the depression.

0

#1494 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Don't mix in a plastic cup unless it's made for 2PAC.

0

#1496 9 years ago

ACE

MinnPin

Inactive member

Saint Paul, MN

10y 17,150 123 1

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Don't mix in a plastic cup unless it's made for 2PAC.

That might be it. I've been using a plastic mixing cup that I did get from the auto paint supply shop, but it was given to me for mixing car paint, not necessarily 2pac.

I take it there's a special type for 2pac?

Thanks!

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#1519 9 years ago

MAP

MurphyPeoples

Pinside member

Clinton, SC

13y 72,900 828 4 7

Quoted from tezting:
What happened to the last 5% ?

Vid's covered the sanding here, but for the last 5% I got out the 2PAC and the pipette's to fill 'em in one drop at a time. Live and learn. Never made that mistake again, and part of that reason is due to the fact that I follow Vid here on his restoration guide.

Now I'm expanding my horizon's by delving into Air Brushing instead of Acrylic brush fixes thanks to Vid.

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#1540 9 years ago

CHD

Cheddar

GoldenStatePin

Lodi, CA

11y 117K 5,181 17 10

Hey Vid, a good friend of mine is a craftsman cabinet maker and he wants to try his hand at clearing a playfield. I talked to him about 2pac and your thread. He wants to use a conversion varnish. Do you have an opinion on this?

Thanks

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#1541 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Cons:

Many Conversion Varnishes need the substrate sanded to 220 grit to have enough tooth to adhere to.

Many CVs need a vinyl "primer" between any non-catalyzed (playfield paint) and catalyzed (CV) finish.

Many CVs list a limit of 3mil thickness before risk of cracking, so leveling inserts could not be done.

Unlike 2PAC, if you sand through a layer of CV and hit the next layer over dark colors, you will see the halo.

Not as clear as 2PAC.

Not as tough as 2PAC.

Cannot be buffed to as high of a shine as 2PAC.

-
Pros:

Not as toxic as 2PAC

1/2 the price of 2PAC

0

#1547 9 years ago

ACE

MinnPin

Inactive member

Saint Paul, MN

10y 17,150 123 1

Lee, you seem very tuned in the technical aspect of the product, but I would tend not to argue with the man who has been using said product for this very specific use for some time now and with a great deal of success.

When it comes down to it, in this forum, it only matters how the 2pac works for clearing a playfield -- with glue variances, material variances, paint variances and decals.

0

#1562 9 years ago

DKP

tezting

Inactive member

10y 54,300 1,104 1

Danger with 2PAC.
I know 2PAC is very bad for you and I am using all the protection when spraying. But is it the fumes when spraying? The product? Or? The reason I am asking are if I should be just as careful when sanding and handling the playfield after spraying it? Or if the sanding material is not full of danger?

0

1

#1566 9 years ago

ACE

MinnPin

Inactive member

Saint Paul, MN

10y 17,150 123 1

Quoted from LEE:
I am not arguing, I am trying to be helpful. I have worked using automotive paint for a living for the last 20 years and have attended numerous workshops at paint manufacturers technical training facilities. Something that most people that paint probably never get a chance to do. I also clearcoated my 1st PF around 16 years ago.
Just trying to be helpful.

Awesome. And noted. I wasn't slamming you, I was simply saying the amount of useful, detailed and highly functional advice Vid has given out regarding pinball repair, and directly in regard to how 2pac works (for this purpose), I just don't feel like there is much to argue about.

That being said -- everyone on here is helping and/or getting help, so in the end all comments are appreciated.

0

#1571 9 years ago

PGR

PhilGreg

Ayscrim Studios

Québec, QC

11y 101K 2,446 6 1

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
There is a little bit of sanding skill and a little bit of fudge factor involved. Take your time, it either will be nice, or a pile of crap.
If you think you got it nice, take some Naphtha on a rag and wipe down your work.
This gives you a preview of what the clear coat will look like.
Sometimes it looks great dry, but looks terrible when Naphtha-ed.
Other times it looks dicey and grey, but comes out perfect when wet.
If the damage is too bad to sand out, don't despair.
Patch any soft wood fibers with wood filler, sand smooth, mask with tape and simply paint in the "layers" of plywood.
I know this sounds flaky, but I've done it 100s of times and 95% of the time the customer never notices - but if I did not paint it, they'd notice for sure.

shoot-4.jpg 41 KB

Hi,
I started working on a spare Power Play playfield... I was working on the shooter lane and wondering - the rest of the wood has a yellowed varnish, while I'm sanding this down to bare wood. Basically when I wipe it down with alcohol (since we can't get naphta here in Canada), this is the look it's gonna have with 2PAC?
It kinda looks right so I figure I might not have to adjust the color, but what if I did? Would I need to use wood stain or paint?

Edit: so here's how to paint it - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/18#post-1730160
But, my question remains as to whether this needs to be done just to account for the bare wood vs yellowed varnish.

IMG_20141125_214925090.jpg

0

#1593 9 years ago

ARS

Robotoes

Pinside member

Rutland, VT

9y 48,650 1,250

I'm curious about what temp you would consider too cold to work with clear coating at.

I have worked with many types of resins and typically anything below 50° F is asking for problems, wondering if workable temps for 2pac are similar in your experience?

Will a portable heater in a spray booth be enough to help with colder temps, or will cold temps negatively effect how it hardens?

0

#1629 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:
Best way to try and repair this?

I'd fill it with 2PAC or wood epoxy and build it back up.

Luckily, the art in that area is pretty abstract, so if someone won't scan you the area, you can just sample the surrounding patterns and fill it in using Photoshop on a waterslide decal.

0

#1719 9 years ago

MAP

MurphyPeoples

Pinside member

Clinton, SC

13y 72,900 828 4 7

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
AIN Plastics
Grainger

Vid - I'm wondering if Dupli-Color's "Adhesion Promoter" would work as well? It's designed for plastics. Especially Urethane bumpers and such. I use it in Modeling. Spray it down as the base coat (it's clear, and hardens great) then I spray Dupli-Color's Self leveling automotive primer over that.

This creates a bond so that the final layer of paint cannot be pulled off when using masking agents like #M blue painters tape or friskets. Kinda sounds like what you're recommending. We use it in modeling because it goes on so thin and self levels so that fine details aren't lost in the buildup.

Dupli-Color products are available at all AutoZone or O'Reilly's parts stores.

On a side note, I've been experimenting with using Spies Hecker Acrylic Urethane paints on my playfield this month. After locking everything down with 2PAC, the S/H with reducer goes on and dries like a final finish. A very thin layer has incredible opacity. Pics to come later this month.

0

#1726 9 years ago

FRX

Frax

Pinside member

Conyers, GA

12y 103K 16,662 2 9

OK, so I get clear is all toxic and yuck and crap.. I am getting a PF re-cleared that has ghosting. I know the guy does an *amazing* job on NOS and classic playfields, I don't know how much he's done with DMD playfields. He's saying he is going to sand off the old clear before he shoots his. I don't think he can sand enough down to get rid of ghosting without damaging the playfield, right?

My wife and I are having a debate about what to do. She wants to chip out the ghosted clear and just fill it. I'm more inclined to follow the advice here, open it up and then fill it with 2PAC or UV resin and just have it filled and ready to go for our clear guy.

My question is this... I have no garage, no place to deal with this...that's why I'm letting someone else clear it. If I wanted to get a syringe and fill these inserts in, is it "safe" to mix up just enough to do that in a cup and do it in say my living room or not? I'm assuming NOT but I don't operate on assumptions. If it's safe, I want to take care of this before we hand the playfield over.

Also, if I wanted to touch up keylines, should I do that after he has sanded it down the first time, or after he has shot the first light layer of HIS clear? =\

0

#1741 9 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Lermods:
What about where there is just a hairline separation or small cracks, like in the 2 and 4 million inserts?

Fill in crack with 2PAC, lightly sand, repaint black keyline, clearcoat.

0

#1796 9 years ago

DMD

songofsixpence

ThatOldPinball

Wharton, NJ

10y 79,050 706

Hi Vid -
I had wanted to weigh in with thanks for all you do, and the advice you offer.

I did want to ask your opinion on backglasses. Do you recommend any treatment to the back side of the glass if it is in good condition? I know some spray Triple-Thick on the back. I have a couple glasses in good, original condition and I would like to keep them that way. But I wouldn't want a layer of triple-thick or 2pac to cause more damage down the road
-dave

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#1800 9 years ago

FLX

tabrakadanak

Inactive member

Montréal, QC

12y 23,500 30 4 6

Hi Vid!
Like many said, thanks a lot for your expertise and giving the balls to newbie like me to make a first clearcoat.
I have a question: I read about clearcoating the other side of the playfield when there's no paint on it. I purchased a Mirco playfield for my White Water and it seems to be the case: no clearcoat or sealer on the back of the playfield.
Should I put one or two layers of 2PAC on this side? If so, do I have to block the holes of the insert, or two layers of coating will be fine for them?
I'll wait for your advice, thanks again!!

0

#1970 9 years ago

MDS

Pinterest

Pinside member

11y 73,900 932 4 22

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
There of course will be inserts that you will not need to replace or reseat.
After 20 or so years, you would think that if they were going to move, they would have already moved. And certainly there is some truth to this.
But a new clear coat is going to put new tension on the playfield that was never there before, so usually you will want to apply some glue to the back lip of those inserts.
I know, it's not as good as roughing them up and using plastic primer, but it is better than a surprise 6 months down the road.

So Vid,

So this is what my inserts look like now. (I have already cleaned them with alcohol and q-tips several times and see they still need more.)

image.jpg
image.jpg

I plan to 2PAC my playfield as soon as it gets warm enough so I can touch up the PF..I am currently gluing / re-gluing my inserts to get ready.

Do you try to "spin out" the rubbery mastic stuff (black) on the wood next to the inserts that are flat prior to re gluing them - or would it be safer to remove the insert first? I hate to take them out if I have not found a new replacement first - and I'm pretty sure that epoxy won't stick to this rubbery gook the factory used. (Gook is a technical term.). Thanks!

0

#2002 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from goldenboy232:
Hi Vid, I recently bought a nice 1976 Target Alpha. The playfield is in very good shape with one small exception (shown below). At some point in its life, someone put a post with a small rubber on it right between the flippers (presumably) to make it less likely for the ball to drain on the frequent long drops from the top of the playfield.

I'd scrape out the existing clear, down to clean wood. Put tape over the back of the hole.

Fill hole with 2PAC or epoxy.

Paint to match wood, use very dry, stiff brush to add grain (less is always better than more).

Repair graphic.

Or:

Drill out hole, plug with 1/4" Maple dowel.

Repair graphic.

0

#2008 8 years ago

MCD

dasvis

Pinside member

Salem, OR

12y 101K 4,796 11 16

Hey Vid -
The temp is finally getting to where I can paint again here in the Pacific NW & I'm ready to get back on my High hand project. I will be laying a coat of clear 2pac down first - My concern is the raised areas where the playfield post screws have pulled the wood up. Do I just sand these flat before clearing, or??

IMG_1852 (Small).JPG
IMG_1853 (Small).JPG
IMG_1854 (Small).JPG
IMG_1855 (Small).JPG

0

#2026 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from goingincirclez:
And of course like all Firepowers, the inserts are cupped. But many of them are also... shrunk? There is a gap between the plastic and the wood. I am concerned about how to fill it.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/17#post-1717646

Fill the gap just like you would fill the cupping with 2PAC.

Or if you want, you can just buy new inserts and glue them in. The "starburst" style of inserts never cup like that, so although not 100% authentic, they will end your worry. I've seen reproduction Firepower playfields with all starburst inserts, so obviously many others are happy with that solution.

Quoted from goingincirclez:
Also, most of the pointer inserts have gone banana: curled and raised on one or both ends, so even if I glue and clamp them down no longer proud, they will still be cupped and probably have that gap. Any advice for that situation?

Those I would probably just replace with new inserts

http://pbresource.com/playfins.html

0

#2027 8 years ago

GIC

goingincirclez

GIC Pinball

9y 116K 2,836 27

Thank you sir. I'd seen the portion you linked, but it didn't mention insert gaps relating to cupping so I didn't know if that changes the game.

I'll probably have more questions on the 2PAC process when the time comes. I have this in basement workshop which may be better than the living room I was stuck in for Space Shuttle, but I don't have a very hospitable outdoor environment so I am very concerned about fumes. Shuttle has seen hours and hours and hours of play and the Varathane has held up great... but that was a PITA and a overall spray option would be wonderful if I can get away with it.

I saw another tip where someone flattened the pointers (and I presume could do other shapes also) by using a DIY fit wooden socket base and a metal heatplate in a clamp... I might try that for kicks, but I think I'll order the inserts I can find while I still can... it already seems a couple are unobtanium.

0

1

#2028 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

I would not dick with trying to flatten banana inserts if replacements are available.

Too much headache if they decide to go back to their original shape.

Remember to do all the inserts that are next to each other at the same time. New ones won't match the old ones color wise.

Quoted from goingincirclez:
I am very concerned about fumes.

You simply can't do 2PAC in the house. Don't even think about it.

0

#2039 8 years ago

DKP

tezting

Inactive member

10y 54,300 1,104 1

Hi,
I am about to do my third playfield but this is the first time where I will take of all the parts under the playfield. So have some questions about that:

- What is the must effective way to clean the back of inserts? (while still in the playfield)
- When you sand the back of the playfield and want to protect it, can I use the same 2PAC for that or is that a bad idea?

0

#2106 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from altan:
I wasn't sure which insert solution was best for the pictured condition. Thoughts?

Drip 2PAC in the holes to fill them, like a cupped insert.

Make sure you rough up the holes and really clean the wax out of them = otherwise the clear won't stick.

Quoted from altan:
I'm crossing my fingers it doesn't require clear costing the play field.

Nope, it does not require it; but when a playfield shows that much wear, you are probably not too far from it.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/17#post-1717646

0

#2108 8 years ago

AJS

altan

Skillshot Combo

19y 107K 2,350 20 1

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Drip 2PAC in the holes to fill them, like a cupped insert.

Vid, when you say "holes" do you mean "the center of the insert"?

When running my finger over the area, it doesn't feel like a depression or hole. But maybe it's there and pretty subtle.

I think you are saying to treat this like a cupped insert and it will fix the ugly edges of the inserts in the progress. Is that correct?

When dealing with small amounts of 2PAC (such as "dripping"), is the breathing mask and so forth required? I assume Yes.

Thank you again

0

#2111 8 years ago

AJS

altan

Skillshot Combo

19y 107K 2,350 20 1

Thanks, Vid.

One more... Any thoughts on Solarez vs 2pac for small areas like this?

0

#2118 8 years ago

AJS

altan

Skillshot Combo

19y 107K 2,350 20 1

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I have no experience with Solarez.

Ok, looks like I'll do 2PAC.

Going back to something you wrote me earlier ("make sure your rough up the holes"). How would you suggest doing that?

Also, when you said "drop 2PAC into the holes", how do you recommend dripping? Using an eye-dropper?

Much thanks

EDIT: I went back to your cupped insert post and it looks like

1) I should use 800 grit on the holes to rough them up
2) I should use GLASS eye-dropper

Now I need to figure out where to get those eye droppers...

0

#2131 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from dasvis:
Vid - what's the best way to attack silicone or wax on a playfield that has been worn to the wood?
It's easy to just wipe down an unworn painted surface with naptha, but when there is a lot of bare wood, the contaminants get down into it.

Lightly sand it for some tooth, wipe with Naphtha, and shoot.

If it's a pit that has been dug, you can pre-fill it with 2PAC just like you would do a cupped insert.

0

#2197 8 years ago

MDS

Pinterest

Pinside member

11y 73,900 932 4 22

Ok - so I tried that Klean-Strip Prep-All - (cheap dewaxer) today. Just soaked a rag in this stuff, wiped the playfield down with a very wet coat and then wiped it off with clean prep wipes while it was still wet. To be fair - I had previously wiped the playfield down with Naptha before starting this process - but it worked well and I had no problems with Fisheye.

Note to self: be a bit better prepared next time and don't mix in the garage on my bench and spray in the driveway. I didn't build a spray booth for this - but will do so next time before I put a final coat on because I did get more dust in the clear than I expected. A bug tried to drink my 2PAC and got stuck. Was able to suck him out while it was still wet with my eyedropper)

Next time I will mount my gun holder to the wall right where I'm spraying and have everything I need setup on a table within reach of my breathing air hose - this time I had to keep disconnecting to run back and forth to mix more product, etc and will probably get a horrible cancer or something from this stuff. (I'm kidding I was pretty careful to disconnect away from my immediate work area - but it was a horrible PIA.)

image_25333.jpg

Here is a picture of the playfield right after I finished spraying.

01f59920eb93e8168618e079b7ade4369b4b9a3f19_00001.jpg

This picture shows the "ball trail" groove in the playfield that I built up a bit with my trusty eyedropper before I coated the rest of it.

01242d30d4e57ada88c6cfc10618103534590e2ec6.jpg

I had a few other places that were low and I built up also.

011ca76166206ef2e4709ff26366889b8170a1f97a.jpg

So Vid, I have never worked with Omni 2-PAC before - how long do I need to wait before I can block sand the playfield flat?

image_18332.jpg

Will 240 grit work ok for this or should I use a more aggressive grit (e.g. 120?) to flatten this out before I start airbrushing?

I cannot thank you enough for your assistance - I am so impressed with how easy this was to do and how the 2 PAC makes the colors pop!! (Already thinking about how nice my JM will look and how smooth it will play with a freshly clear coated playfield!

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2

#2249 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

PREVENTING THE CLEARCOAT FROM CRACKING WHEN REPOPULATING PLAYFIELDS

==========================================================

The new 2PAC clearcoat is hard and yet still is slightly flexible. It has to be hard to take on a high gloss, and resist wear, but since it comes from the auto industry, it stays flexible (that is why the paint on your car does not pop off when you press down on a panel).

As you built up your layers of clear, you probably noticed that some holes filled slightly with Clearcoat.

Any dimples on a new playfield certainly filled with Clearcoat.

1.jpg

Key post

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#2259 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from louvnj:
I was going to wax and mylar the affected inserts, is there anything else you'd recommend to minimize further damage?

The inserts that look like they are moving, you might try to glue them from the backside of the playfield.

The insert with the big chip in it, you should fill the chip with a few drops of 2PAC before more material chips off (or the topcoat chips off into the lit portion of the insert).

0

#2276 8 years ago

GBB

mrgregb123

Pinside member

Cumberland, RI

9y 67,550 897 10 26

Vid,

Seeing some lifting of the clear (the layer that my automotive guy put on that fish-eyed all over the place) where frisket has been removed (next to boxing glove). Not quite as simple as removing it from an insert. What to do about this? Will the new correct layer of 2PAC nail this down or is this going to be a big problem? Chipping it and sanding it results in playfield paint coming up so that doesn't seem like an option...

20150818_213728.jpg

0

#2304 8 years ago

DKP

tezting

Inactive member

10y 54,300 1,104 1

How long should 2PAC dry before you can take it inside the house?

0

#2319 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from tezting:
Why does the wood turn so dark with Naptha compared with the clear coat original used?

The old clear has turned milky, the Naphtha (and 2PAC ) is crystal clear.

0

#2333 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from PhilGreg:
Will clearing and getting the clear flat make this stuff blend in or should I try to sand my light coat of clear flat and respray?

Drip 2PAC into low spots you want to fill. Then shoot a thin layer of clear to level everything else.

Quoted from PhilGreg:
-I was thinking of printing a decal for this (after I've replaced the incorrect color of insert - dang!). So, same question, how do I get it flat enough for a decal?

Waterslide decals stick to shiny, so replace insert, drip 2PAC into crack around insert parameter, sand flush, apply decal.

Quoted from PhilGreg:
Will this depression blend in with the clear or will it still stay visible?

Drip 2PAC into the low spots.

Quoted from PhilGreg:
-I guess I'll be able to blend this with the translucent Createx paints?

Yep.

Quoted from PhilGreg:
-I was thinking of doing a decal for this (and basically for every circle, because I can't cut a perfect circle with my plastic stencils) - makes sense?

You will often find that the same size insert Keyline is used all over the playfield.

Print extras for the next game.

0

#2344 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Atreyu:
What would you suggest for the fish inserts on my new FT? Waterslide decals might not work here since there is other artwork on them as well. Do I have to sand and paint these? They don't seem raised (as far as I can tell) but I might just not be able to notice them being raised since there is the clear line around the inserts that have a "moat" around them.

You can clean out the moat and then just fill it with 2PAC if you don't want it to get any larger.

0

#2347 8 years ago

JES

Atreyu

Inactive member

Lynnwood, WA

8y 27,150 123 4

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
You can clean out the moat and then just fill it with 2PAC if you don't want it to get any larger.

So if I wanted it to look as good as possible, I would probably clean out the moat, fill it with the 2PAC, sand down that area with high grit paper (600 or so?), paint over it, sand again, then clear coat.

Does that sound about right? I don't just want to fix the moat, I want the fish to look like they didn't have a cookie cutter taken to their insides

0

#2358 8 years ago

ACE

MinnPin

Inactive member

Saint Paul, MN

10y 17,150 123 1

Hi all,

So a question that certainly has been answered before, but here it goes...

I just redid my decal work last week and then yesterday (Saturday) did a new coat of clear. Once again I got little minute bubbles in it everywhere. Maybe when I look at it later they will be gone, but based on previous experience they won't be. I know I have to sand one more time because of some little pits I filled, but I would really like my next coat of clear to be my last.

If I get bubbles again, I am screwed. How do I clear without getting these? My compressor and gun setup is the exact spec of what Vid recommended in this forum. I am using the exact 2pac recommended as well. So why do I keep getting these tiny bubbles everywhere and what can be done to prevent them?

Thanks!

0

#2360 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from MinnPin:
So why do I keep getting these tiny bubbles everywhere and what can be done to prevent them?

Are they craters or bubbles trapped inside the clear?

Do they instantly appear, or pop up a few minutes after clearing?

Is the playfield and the clear the exact same temp? Or are you bringing the playfield from the hot garage and the clear from the cool basement?

Are you stirring in tons of bubbles, or are you careful while mixing the 2PAC? You can let the 2PAC sit for 10 minutes while bubbles rise to the top.

Quoted from MinnPin:
If I get bubbles again, I am screwed.

You can drill out tiny bubbles with a CLEAN small drill bit and just drip some new clear into the void.

0

4

#2381 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Fred736:
The big ugly blue mylars have to go. I was planing on freezing them but on the last few pages of the guide there is a quick comment by Vid about how its better to use heat on some older PFs. Would it be the case here?

I don't think that is Mylar, it looks like blue vinyl "shelf paper". Try heat on that stuff first.

Quoted from Fred736:
For all the other worn spots it will be a long tedious frisket, paint and decal job I guess. Looking forward to that! Any advice welcome.

Here is what a pro would do:

1. Scan the entire playfield with a HP4600 scanner - so you have the art saved from the following destruction.

2. Sand out the shooter lane (paint if necessary), sand out the ball trail that leads up to the top arch (don't try to spot sand, sand all the wood to the edge of the graphics, sand the bare wood by the flippers up to the graphics, sand the two kick out saucers (wood filler and paint if necessary), sand in front of slingshots. Use some shellac to "stain" the wood back to a realistic color for it's age.

3. Clean the playfield with a Magic Eraser and 96% Iso Alcohol. Get rid of any loose paint that would blow off when you spray a coat of clear.

4. Fill in any cupped inserts or worn divots with 2PAC using an eyedropper.

5. Spray a thin coat of 2PAC over the entire playfield, now the existing paint is locked down and safe to frisket.

6. Sand the clear with 400 grit and now start masking all the colors. Do all the Blue first, then Red, then.....you get the ideas, darker colors first.

7. Seal all the paint under a thin layer of clear.

8. Apply water slide decals to replace all the lettering.

9. Clear over decals. Sand clear dead flat, and apply final layer of clear.

10. Buff to mirror shine.

11. Enjoy the nicest See Saw known to man.

0

#2399 8 years ago

FCB

Fred736

Pinside member

8y 33,050 152 3

Was on the prowl this past week searching for some 2PAC.

Turns out PPG’s Omni MC161 (aka Shopline JC660), which is Vid's recommendation of choice for novices clearcoaters, is no longer available in Canada since 2010 because of its VOC levels.

Vendor’s suggestion for a similarly priced and packaged product from the same family is PPG’s Omni MC262.

Spec sheet for both those products availble here under 'clearcoat'
http://ca.ppgrefinish.com/PPG-Refinish/Products/Automotive-Refinish/Omni

Putting both above spec sheets side-by-side I do see some minor differences. However, I’m not sure how those would affect application.

Vendor also offered PPG’s Envirobase EC800 as a product offered in quart packaging.
But it's an entirely different family of product and is quite pricy at about 3 to 4x the cost of the two above.

http://www.nedsautobodysupply.com/PPG_EC800_EB-800_Ultra_Fast_2.1_Clearcoat_12-2011_.pdf

Has anyone had experience with any of those alternative products.
All you Canadian restorers, what clear have you been using that you feel works for a novice clearcoater?

0

#2460 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from MinnPin:
WHAT IN GOD'S NAME AM I DOING WRONG? I am, once again running out of days in which to do this before cold weather, I am getting very sick of sanding this over and over and over, and I just end up with the same results. Here are some closeup pictures of the bubbles which cover my entire PF.

Could be a few things:

Playfield and 2PAC are not the same temp.

Shop or spraybooth are contaminated with silicone (like from "fisheye eliminator")

Gasket is missing from some part of the gun.

Too thick of a layer of clear and the solvent could not escape.

0

2

#2471 8 years ago

FCB

Fred736

Pinside member

8y 33,050 152 3

Hello Vid,

I believe my PF is now, as clean as it will get.
I've ME the whole surface to get the loose flakes of paint off.
In a few spots, I've ME a bit to much. But i wanted to reveal the original color for my color matching.
I've also scanned the whole thing.

IMG_20151004_192250.jpg

I've managed to get rid of the ball track to my satisfaction.
Still shows a wee bit in certain spots when wiped with Naphtha but acceptable to me.

And the shooter late is also fair.

I'm still debating if I will or not try to stain or shellac the wooden areas from which i have scraped off all of the old varnish.
Top, bottom and slingshots.
I cant really find shellac flakes. I might just leave as is.
Bugs me that there are a few area in upper PF with non-scraped varnish.
Color is different. May just decide to scrape these also.
Wood stain may be an option. Varnish is completely gone, so it would hold.
Would it look good under the clear?

IMG_20151004_192332.jpg

IMG_20151004_192341.jpg

IMG_20151004_192402.jpg

IMG_20151004_192407.jpg

IMG_20151004_192352.jpg

I've even started preparing my masks for the cabinet artwork.
But that's a topic for another post.

IMG_20151004_192700.jpg

Other than the above, here is what i think are my next steps:

-Drill out stripped screw holes, fill with epoxy and top with bondo.
-Fix larger divots with bondo.
-Sand Bondo flush.
-Scuff cupped inserts and small divots and fill with 2PAC.
-Lightly scuff PF with 800 grit to give the first coat some grip. (Scary! Is this correct?)
-Once dry, lightly scuff filled inserts and small divots with 600-800 grit also to give some grip.
-Mask holes and slots in PF.
-Bag and protect PF underside mech.
-Final wipe with naphtha and swipe with tack cloth (At local shop just before clearing).
-1st light coat of clear (At local paint shop).
-Pick up from shop (will likely be more than 24hrs later) and light sand the clear with 600 grit to flatten PF and to reveal dips.
-Scuff dips with 220 or 320 and eyedrop 2pac.
-Let dry (24hrs plus ?) and sand flat with 600
-Mask and paint.
-2nd coat clear (At local paint shop).

Does that sequence make sense?
I'm also not to certain on the grits to use in the various steps.
Maybe you can comment on that also.

Ill be using Onmi 262 as Omni 161 is apparently not avail in Canada because of VOC content legislation.
Any experience with that one?

Thanks

0

2

#2472 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Fred736:
And the shooter late is also fair.

Your shooter lane looks clean, but the wood has that dark knotty spot in the one section. I'd paint this knot to make the lane look uniform.

Quoted from Fred736:
I'm still debating if I will or not try to stain or shellac the wooden areas from which i have scraped off all of the old varnish.

Wipe with Naphtha and see how even it looks.

If it looks funky, hit it with a layer of Shellac to match the unsanded areas of the playfield.

Quoted from Fred736:
I cant really find shellac flakes.

Canada has lots of Shellac suppliers:

http://www.woodessence.com/Dry-Shellac-P54C13.aspx

Quoted from Fred736:
Drill out stripped screw holes, fill with epoxy and top with bondo.

Too much work.

Squirt in a drop of wood glue, pound in a wooden K-bob stick, snip off with flush cut wire cutters.

Quoted from Fred736:
-Lightly scuff PF with 800 grit to give the first coat some grip. (Scary! Is this correct?)

It seems scary, but you sure don't want the clear to lift up every time you pull off your Frisket.

Quoted from Fred736:
I'm also not to certain on the grits to use in the various steps.

You seem to have the correct grits.

It's not written in stone, so don't sweat it too much.

2PAC fills in scratches in itself wonderfully.

0

#2473 8 years ago

ACE

MinnPin

Inactive member

Saint Paul, MN

10y 17,150 123 1

MINNPIN said:
WHAT IN GOD'S NAME AM I DOING WRONG? I am, once again running out of days in which to do this before cold weather, I am getting very sick of sanding this over and over and over, and I just end up with the same results. Here are some closeup pictures of the bubbles which cover my entire PF.

VID1900 said:
Could be a few things:
Playfield and 2PAC are not the same temp.
Shop or spraybooth are contaminated with silicone (like from "fisheye eliminator")
Gasket is missing from some part of the gun.
Too thick of a layer of clear and the solvent could not escape.

I have never used fisheye eliminator, but I do sand in the same booth I clear in (not immediately following, of course) -- could that be it?
Gun is new and I don't think it's missing any parts
Playfield and 2pac are in the same room and are the same temp
Too thick might be the cause. I do look at each successive pass of the sprayer, and it doesn't seem thick...then suddenly it's very thick.

Also, while you were away -- it was mentioned that the fast hardener might be too fast and that I will keep getting these results if I don't switch to the medium speed hardener. Your thoughts on this?

Thanks as always!

0

1

#2474 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from MinnPin:
I have never used fisheye eliminator, but I do sand in the same booth I clear in (not immediately following, of course) -- could that be it?

I'll say to start sanding outside, replace your booth plastic sheeting and wet the floor just before spraying again.

Quoted from MinnPin:
Too thick might be the cause. I do look at each successive pass of the sprayer, and it doesn't seem thick...then suddenly it's very thick.

Very thick is bad because the solvent can't simply migrate to the top and escape.

Quoted from MinnPin:
it was mentioned that the fast hardener might be too fast and that I will keep getting these results if I don't switch to the medium speed hardener. Your thoughts on this?

Since any decals are now deep below the clear, you could switch to a medium hardener, no problem.

-------

But all that being said, I'd like you to try a different fix, and take pictures.

Take a brand new 1/16 or 1/8" drill bit, clean it with Lacquer Thinner, then with Naphtha.

Open up the bubbles just by turning the bit by hand.

Only do the bubbles that will be seen. Skip bubbles under the pop skirts or plastics.

Vacuum up any dust.

Using a fine glass eyedropper, SLOWLY fill the bubble holes with 2PAC. Use a clean straight pin to remove any bubbles you inject by going too fast.

Allow to dry a few weeks. If you rush, the repairs won't polish at the same rate as the rest of the playfield.

Sand flat.

Buff to mirror.

Wax and put your game back together.

0

2

#2495 8 years ago

CJN

Joey_N

Pinside member

Madison, AL

11y 31,900 277 1

Years ago, I restored an F14 Tomcat with factory Mylar. In removing the Mylar, most of the ink and clear peeled off of every insert. I ended up removing each insert, wet sanded it flat to remove any ink/clear and flatten, reglue, and use insert decals. Clearcoat with 2pac, etc. What a pita, but it turned out nice.

0

#2542 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from hisokajp:
I would like to patch clear between the acrylic paint repair and the new patch of Mylar, I was recommended to use a high gloss ultra-smooth lacquer for special purpose (acrylic) but I couldn't quite find that in my HD this morning. Do you have a recommendation?

You probably need to go to an auto paint store if you want some good lacquer.

Even if you found it at HD, it would probably be crap.

(BTW, I'm not recommending anyone use lacquer rather than 2PAC.....do not email me asking questions about it)

0

#2646 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from jimy_speedt:
How do I finish the edges, which are still not clean ? wet sanding ?

I'd drip 2PAC into that valley that surrounds each insert.

Quoted from jimy_speedt:
When the insert is surrounded by a black circle on the wood I can use the circle Template and a black pen.

Don't use a "Sharpie" pen, or the ink will bleed into the clearcoat at some point.

You can print the Keylines on waterslide decals with a color laser printer, or mask it off and use acrylic paint.

0

#2647 8 years ago

JMY

jimy_speedt

Pinside member

Étalle

10y 58,300 1,159 15

I'd drip 2PAC into that valley that surrounds each insert.

you ll laugh at me, but I do not know what 2PAC is. the only Tupac or 2pac I get on the internet is a black singer.

0

#2684 8 years ago

PGR

PhilGreg

Ayscrim Studios

Québec, QC

11y 101K 2,446 6 1

Alright, this project has been on hold for close to a year because I was unsure where to go next with it.
This thing looked like a piece of crap, I made it much better but still not quite there.

I redid all the colors, cutting around the numbers and writings. That looks pretty good imo.
I tried to fill in a gouge with blue paint I mixed in a different batch and the mix isnt quite perfect. I don't feel like redoing the whole thing so I'll see if I can get it closer, and if that doesn't work I'll redo it once more.
I got sloppy when I did the whites and go a bit of overshoot. Pretty sure I can cover that up pretty good and blend it in.
There's some black keyline that's not as sharp as I'd like. I guess for this I'll need to make the colors touch and do decals for the keylines. I was thinking of doing a decal for the blackhawks logo but I guess I should try to cover it up first?

-shooter lane obviously needs to be painted

I put some shellac in the lane at the top but it still shows
redid the hole at the top, I'll need to paint and decal that too.
some parts are pretty smooth looking, some you still see the texture of the beat up paint below. I'm hoping 2pac does away with that...
I'll do the black circles around the inserts with decals

**So.. I'm wondering, is the light 2pac layer next or is there some of this stuff I should do before the clear?**

I did all that stuff so far using createx with an airbrush and frisketed many times, everything's pretty well locked in.

I should point out that I still have the red and white paint mixes I did, and the second blue batch from the right slingshot area, which I hope I can get reasonably close to the rest of the blue.

I know this is not going to be perfect but I get my enjoyment taking things from piece of crap to nice more than from nice to perfect (not sure I'd have the ability yet anyway...)

IMG_20151207_200059.jpgIMG_20151207_200114.jpgIMG_20151207_200148.jpgIMG_20151207_200209.jpgIMG_20151207_200229.jpgIMG_20151207_200248.jpgIMG_20151207_200427.jpgIMG_20151207_200132.jpg

0

1

#2700 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from PhilGreg:
And about the clear, what would you do?
Try to blend in the top track a little better with shellac, then thin layer of clear, then fix up all the other issues, then complete the clear process?

I'd sand back to bare wood.

Then spray layers of shellac until the color matches with the wood around the slingshots.

Don't try to "spot patch" or blend with the worn wood, just do all the all the exposed wood one color.

Fix any problems with the shooter lane.

Then install your inserts.

Then shoot a thin layer of 2pac to lock everything down and start your repaint.

0

1

#2705 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from jimy_speedt:
Can I play with the thinner the way I want or do I have to keep proportions ?

You don't want to use the thinner unless you absolutely have to.

Since 2PAC shoots right from the can, it should be plenty thin already.

0

#2707 8 years ago

ALP

ita47

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 94,800 1,285 1

Hey Vid, thanks for your guides and taking the time to answer all the questions. I have a Bally Hang Glider playfield I am getting ready to restore. The paint has worn away in spots. I plan to sand the unpainted areas and shelac those areas and then spray a coat of 2PAC on it to lock everything before I start working on the colors. My question is what is the best way to clean and remove all the wax that has been applied to the playfield over the years. I am guessing the wax will be in the cracks and crevices and I would think that if there is any left then the 2PAC could fisheye real bad. I also have no idea what has been applied to the playfield before I got it, so if someone did use millwax or pledge how do you remove that stuff without damaging the fragile aged paint on the playfield?

0

#2746 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

The 2PAC usually fills in the low spots automatically, so normally you only use filler on missing wood.

0

#2791 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from hisokajp:
so what would I actually ask a local car body shop if I wanted to see if they can do one of my PF? Just if they could give it a couple coat of automotive clear coat? What would be a 'normal' price range to see if they are not trying to rip me off?

Tell them that you want a them to shoot a pinball playfield, FLAT ON IT'S BACK with 2PAC.

Tell them you will have it pre sanded with 1000 grit.

Try for $50

0

#2828 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from kissedin:
Is there a remedy for this?

It's fixable.

Fill a syringe with 2PAC, remove the wire guide, inject clear under the chip. If clear won't travel all the way to the outside of the crack, lift the chip GENTLY with a dental pick. If you still can't get every part filled, drill out any empty pocket with an Xacto knife and inject where you need it.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/2#post-551833

0

#2829 8 years ago

KDN

kissedin

Pinside member

Tävelsås

10y 27,300 35 7

Thank you for your quick reply!

1. Is 2PAC a brand? (googled but couldn't get to a conclusion) Or is 2pac = 2k clearcoat?

0

1

#2833 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from kissedin:
Is 2PAC a brand? (googled but couldn't get to a conclusion) Or is 2pac = 2k clearcoat?

2 Part Auto Clear = 2PAC

fake_gangster_(resized).png

0

#2848 8 years ago

DEN

jibmums

Pinside member

12y 96,900 3,965 16

This isn't really a "restoration" but more a "refreshing" question, but it seems the best place to post it. I have two playfields that I've torn down, a Space Invaders and an Earthshaker. I'd like to know the best method of cleaning/polishing each. Neither will be clearcoated afterwards, although I will likely add mylar over heavy traffic areas. I know I will have to use different methods for each.

Space Invaders - playfield is in overall good condition, the only mylar is semicircles in front of the slingshots. Has slight wear around a few inserts which can be easily touched up with black. Light areas like the yellow/orange/light blue in the middle show typical ground-in dirt and ball swirling. I am unfamiliar with this era of Bally playfield, can I use M.E. and iso alcohol? Is there a topcoat that this will remove? I would like to use the Treasure Cove polishing kit after cleaning, will the #2 polish be too abrasive to start with? Again, I won't be clearcoating, only waxing, so the less "ink" removed, the better.

Earthshaker - playfield also in good condition, has factory mylar which cleaned up great with naphtha. I haven't touched the non-mylared areas yet, these have the usual grunge on them, plus colors are slightly discolored after 25 years - the same bright blue under the mylar has turned slightly teal where not under mylar. I am going to leave the mylar on and polish it with the Treasure Cove. The non-mylared areas are my concern - can I use M.E. and iso if I'm not clearcoating? If not, is naphtha better for cleaning? Can I safely Treasure Cove these areas if I start with #2 polish? There are also a couple of areas at the edge of switch holes where ball drops have worn the surface layer of the wood a bit. After cleaning, I was going to apply epoxy and smooth it flush to the playfield surface with a plastic scraper, then cover with mylar when cured. Does this sound like a feasible minor repair? 2pac is not an option, and again I won't be clearcoating anyway.

0

1

#2878 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from tezting:
Wet sanding a playfield with the first layer of clear is no problem? (Normally wood+water is no good)

2PAC is waterproof, so if you have laid down a full coat, you are watertight.

0

1

#2893 8 years ago

KDN

kissedin

Pinside member

Tävelsås

10y 27,300 35 7

Regarding clearcoat lifting off when repopulating pf. I have now managed to obtain a horse syringe and 2PAC. (If you would like to see before pictures look at page 57 of this post).

I couldn't get the needle behind the coat but was able to use a "botox" method combined with a small paintbrush and the very nice and handy force of capillary. This is the result. I'm pretty satisfied with it. Thank you very much VID!

Please observe; the following was not an advice from VID so no garanties that this is the right way to go: Afterwards there was a small ammount of excess clearcoat around the hole used to allign the right flipper. I carefully used 1200 grit whet sandpaper and finished with some novus 2 polishing.

F14_lackskada_efter_(resized).JPG

0

#2924 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from BigSpinner:
Did anybody ever figure out what causes this?

Yep, that's the classic Silicone crap that got soaked into the playfield.

Rough up the depressions with sandpaper, drip in 2PAC with glass eyedropper, sand it all back flat.

0

#2931 8 years ago

SLA

Jtslade

Pinside member

Fort Lauderdale, FL

10y 17,650 50 1

Apparently some Auto Zones are carrying 2Pac Clears in small quantities. I'll take some pics tonight and investigate

0

#2947 8 years ago

SLA

Jtslade

Pinside member

Fort Lauderdale, FL

10y 17,650 50 1

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
6.jpg

Vid1900

Sorry to ask so many questions and take the mystery out of every thing.. Where do you get your Norton Black Ice Sand paper from?

// I just picked up this drywall hand sander from Lowes last night... (pic attached).

Also any tips for tracking down sources of 2PAC? I am having a hard time here in South Florida... The Shop Line series seems to be difficult for me to get ahold of. Or any 2PAC for that matter.

Thank you , Danke!!!

051141922966_(resized).jpg

0

#3004 8 years ago

BWF

Elicash

Pinside member

9y 55,900 865 8

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Take the apron off and try to figure out what they put on the playfield.
Looks like it could be Varathane.
See if it's alcohol soluble, water soluble or MEK soluble.

Vid, spoke to the person who did the pf. He says it is 2PAC. Let me know if i still should run any tests on it under apron to learn more specifics.

Any ideas on a (relatively) easy fix?

0

#3005 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Elicash:
Vid, spoke to the person who did the pf. He says it is 2PAC.

Any ideas on a (relatively) easy fix?

Pretty easy.

Mix up some 2PAC in a syringe and repair just like a ghosted insert:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/2#post-551833

0

#3016 8 years ago

BWF

Elicash

Pinside member

9y 55,900 865 8

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Pretty easy.
Mix up some 2PAC in a syringe and repair just like a ghosted insert:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/2#post-551833

Thanks Vid. Assuming i don't need to depopulate the whole playfield to do this? Also, is this safe to do in my basement or should i take playfield outside to do this? I know that 2PAC is dangerous, but wondering if such a small amount would require me to take pf out to garage.

0

#3021 8 years ago

???

Pinphila

Pinside+ Addict

12y 85,300 4,524 3

Vid,

Two questions...

1) best way to remove inserts?

2) can't get ppg 2pac here, any other? What about alresdy mixed?

Thanks

0

#3032 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Nick_C:
I am about to start touching up a kiss playfield, i have an overlay of the center section (first pic) that i want to put down. I imagine that i would need to sand it down? What grit of sandpaper should i use? The second picture is of the area in question.
I also need to touch up both snakes and part of peter criss and ace frehley. Would i just sand (feather) the areas locally? Then clear, touch up, and then final clear?

Job one is to glue in the missing inserts. New ones won't match the old ones color wise, so make sure your entire rows are all one color.

Job 2 is to fill all the cupped inserts so they are level.

Job 3 is to shoot a thin layer of 2PAC to lock down all the loose paint.

Scan the entire playfield and make black printed waterslide decals of Peter and Ace. Spray over the old art with white paint, then apply the decals to restore their faces.

0

2

#3049 8 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from La_Porta:
At this point, it is nice enough that I don't want to pull everything and clear over the play field. I just want to make localized repair.

The 2PAC is thin like water, so you could try to level each insert without taking the game apart. Just make sure the playfield has been shimmed up dead level.

But I'll still suggest you strip the playfield and **do it right**. You will learn a lot, and FP is a great game to learn on.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/17#post-1717646

0

#3076 8 years ago

DDW

sohchx

Pinside member

9y 87,050 2,259 76

Hey Vid, have you ever seen this happen with Createx white before after being cleared with 2pac? None of the other colors have reacted like this.

IMG_20160423_160537.jpg
IMG_20160423_160524.jpg

0

#3129 7 years ago

DUG

TopMoose

Pinside member

Cincinnati, OH

9y 111K 2,267 10 126 1

Hi, Vid

I'm nearly done disassembling my Flash playfield and need some guidance.

1. I want to remove the top-mounted flipper screws, fill the holes with Bondo, sand it flat and install new flipper assemblies like you recommend, but what's the best way to remove the screws? I can't get them to move from the underside and there's no screwdriver slot on the top.

2. The same system was used on the pop bumpers. Should I remove these screws or just leave them in, and fill the divots with 2PAC?

P5070048_(resized).JPG

P5070050_(resized).JPG

0

2

#3138 7 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

So Vid, I've been reading your guide, and I think I have the order of what I need to do things in for my Firepower. Correct me if I'm wrong:

1. Strip play field of everything and clean over with naphtha.
2. Use magic eraser and 91% isopropyl to remove the 1980s Williams clear coat.
3. Fill in divits and other areas with bonds and sand.
4. Remove/repair inserts. Lower proud inserts, and use 2PAC to fill the bowed ones. Sand to the level of the table.
5. Lightly sand the play field to give tooth to upcoming layers.
6. Rub all over with tack cloth.
7. Spray light coating of 2PAC
8. Make the updates with Createx colors, install waterslide decals. Check all look good with Naphtha.
9. Install star roll over protectors for overspray.
10. Coat with 2 or 3 coats of 2PAC, sanding in between
11. Enjoy your work.

0

#3139 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from La_Porta:
3. Fill in divits and other areas with bonds and sand.

Yes, but only if the paint is worn off.

If it's just a dent, with paint intact, just fill the divot with 2PAC.

Quoted from La_Porta:
4. Remove/repair inserts. .

Only remove inserts if you MUST. Make sure you have replacements IN HAND before removing any of them. Some inserts are simply not available anywhere, and if you break one removing it.......

Quoted from La_Porta:
use 2PAC to fill the bowed ones. Sand to the level of the table.

You don't have to get too crazy sanding completely flush. When you spray your first clear, things tend to even out.

0

1

#3143 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from WakiMiko:
What can I do here to fix the clearcoat and/or to stop it from getting worse?

Try to clean up that crappy Sharpie marker with 94% alcohol.

Repaint white.

Mask off and repaint black keyline.

Scuff up surrounding wood for tooth and repair chip with 2PAC.

0

#3144 7 years ago

RAR

beelzeboob

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 182K 20,714

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Try to clean up that crappy Sharpie marker with 94% alcohol.
Repaint white.
Mask off and repaint black keyline.
Scuff up surrounding wood for tooth and repair chip with 2PAC.

Again, Vid stumps me. What's 2PAC? (And save the inevitable jokes, please. )

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3

#3145 7 years ago

ZUM

Mr_Tantrum

Fort Worth, TX

8y 140K 12,540 3 6 75

Quoted from beelzeboob:
Again, Vid stumps me. What's 2PAC? (And save the inevitable jokes, please. )

Here's a photo, but not sure how he can help at this point.

Actually, now that I think about it, Vid is most likely referring to 2 Part Auto Clear: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration?tq=2pac&tu#post-1669058

TupacShakurPA210311_(resized).jpg

0

#3150 7 years ago

ZUM

Mr_Tantrum

Fort Worth, TX

8y 140K 12,540 3 6 75

Here's another 2PAC.

gallery_4_8_68192_(resized).png

0

#3181 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from mack505:
Would you ever spot clear with an air brush? And if so, would you thin the clear, and if so, with what would you thin it?

Yes, there will be times when you would spot-clear with an airbrush (like fixing someone's melted decal fnckup).

The 2PAC clear comes "ready to spray" right out of the can, so no thinning necessary.

0

#3199 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from No_Skill:
So, right now I have no plans on removing the playfield and clearing the entire thing because the game works perfectly and plays great. Do I attempt some restoration so the areas don't get any worse, or do I just leave them alone?

That's called "insert wear".

You can scrub the wax out of the cracks with a soft toothbrush and Naphtha.

Then use a detail brush and opaque black paint to fill the cracks (leave the lamps in test mode so you can see any cracks you missed).

Top off the black painted cracks with some 2PAC to protect it.

0

#3200 7 years ago

???

westofrome

Pinside member

Alexandria, VA

11y 77,300 2,158 2

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
That's called "insert wear".
You can scrub the wax out of the cracks with a soft toothbrush and Naphtha.
Then use a detail brush and opaque black paint to fill the cracks (leave the lamps in test mode so you can see any cracks you missed).
Top off the black painted cracks with some 2PAC to protect it.

You're saying spot clearing with 2PAC? Seems there's always a chorus against spot clearing.

With 2PAC you're looking at masking, booth, respirator, airbrush?

0

#3202 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from westofrome:
You're saying spot clearing with 2PAC? Seems there's always a chorus against spot clearing.

You can fill a crack with 2PAC.

You can't really "spot clear" with 2PAC because the edge is weak and will lift after time.

But in a crack the edge is better protected, and bonds well to the jagged edge.

Quoted from westofrome:
With 2PAC you're looking at masking, booth, respirator, airbrush?

I just use a syringe to gently dispense it into a crack, very controlled, no airborne mist.

0

#3203 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from No_Skill:
That was pretty much what I thought I needed to do. I've already purchased the Createx opaque black and my plan was to get a can of the Spraymax 2K and spray it into a glass container then use a dropper and maybe a pin to fill the cracks. I wasn't sure how it would turn out since pretty much everyone in this thread puts an entire layer of clear over the top of these spot fixes.

You might just get a quart of 2PAC from the local auto store.

The whole can of 2K will be hard in a few days, for the few drops you are going to use.

The 2PAC will be good for years as long as you don't get any activator into the clear can.

Quoted from No_Skill:
Do I sand and polish the repairs after they cure? My main concern is how the edges will look compared to the stock playfield surface.

The edges are going to be way more shiny than your playfield.

But as you play, it will dull down.

If you are skilled, you might be able to sand it flat, but I'd probably just leave it.

Do an insert way in the back first. Don't do your learning front and center.

0

#3208 7 years ago

BJM

BJM-Maxx

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 58,650 876

Not to deny 2PAC's benefits, I am wondering though what poly was used. They are not all the same. The traditional oil based stuff nowadays is sold as turning amber, I guess some people want that when used on wood. I have tried the outdoor UV protected stuff and it does go on very clear. They sell it as a product that resists yellowing which of course is a relative thing. In Home Depot in Canada there is oil based, and water based with water based coming in an indoor type and an outdoor UV resistant type.

0

#3268 7 years ago

DEN

jibmums

Pinside member

12y 96,900 3,965 16

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Quoted from jibmums:

Both pf's have kickout holes that are getting a little beat-up around the edges. I have to do any work indoors, so spray clear is unfortunately out of the question for now; what's the best brushable alternative, preferably something I could find locally? It won't be covering anything white-colored, just black, golden-yellow, and the bare wood. Thanks!

Let's see some pics

Here you go. Neither are all that bad right now; I did some touchup to Simps a year ago, and ES needs a little touchup on the black ring. I'd like to keep them from getting any more chewed-up looking in the future but spray clear or 2pac is just not possible for now.

100_7153_(resized).JPG
100_7156_(resized).JPG

0

#3270 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from jibmums:
Here you go. Neither are all that bad right now; I did some touchup to Simps a year ago, and ES needs a little touchup on the black ring. I'd like to keep them from getting any more chewed-up looking in the future but spray clear or 2pac is just not possible for now.

No matter how much you sand, you won't get all that black coil dust out of the wood fibers.

You should sand away any stray fibers.

Then paint the wood back to a wood color.

You can mix up a small amount of 2PAC and brush it on since you don't need a glass smooth finish.

0

1

#3282 7 years ago

JDB

kilmarnock1350

Pinside member

Pensacola, FL

9y 34,800 398 25

How long to let cure? (2PAC)

I'm cleared, sanded, polished. About to dimple and start reassembly. How long before a pinball can be put on the surface? I've read some places they recommend 6-8 weeks?

I'll post pics when complete. This was not a restoration, more of a touch up, and a clear. But, small steps. I'm SIGNIFICANTLY more confident now.

Thanks!

0

#3307 7 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Vid, just a general question regarding lacquers: I saw what you said regarding lacquers being "too hot" for other paints. What about Model Master gloss clear lacquer that I use for my models? I have sprayed it over enamel, acrylic, lacquer, and decals with thus far no issue ever. Perhaps it is different than those Minwax types in being specially made to play well with everything? Would there be downside to using this type of thing at all, especially for a first, sealing coat between the original paint and spraying Createx touch up? I ask because, like many others, I am limited in what I can do for shooting clear...meaning the rattle can "will harden in the can in 48 hours" stuff. This is because I have only one pin, and will only need to do this once. I don't want to start the clock on the can for an initial coat, rush to spray the Createx, etc...because we all know what a rush job will achieve. I'd rather save the 2PAC for the final coats once the Createx and decals are in place. Would this be feasible/advisable?

0

#3327 7 years ago

LUD

lb1

Pinside member

Bay Area, CA

11y 66,800 1,242 1

Quoted from tezting:
Thank you all.
When I say ml I mean milliliters.
I use SprayMax (400ml pr. can), and there is no way that 1/4 of a can is enough for a final coat and if I use 1/8 of a can for between it will be uneaven/misty, but is that normal?

Looking at http://www.repaintsupply.com/files/2K_Glamour_High_Gloss_Clear_English_TDS.pdf

Coverage: approx. 5.4 – 8.1 sq ft / aerosol
at a dry film thickness of 1.2 – 2.0 µm = 0.002 mm = 0.8 mils

A playfield is roughly 6ish sqft.

Your numbers make sense and you might even need more than a can. There is probably a lot less actual liquid in the can than 400ml. Solid content between SprayMax and 2PAC is comparable.

0

#3351 7 years ago

E Z

Iizi

Pinside member

Helsinki

10y 31,550 75 7

Hi Vid!

I had a case where a few inserts on Champions Pub were damaged while removing mylar. It looked really good when I filled them with 2pac, I put a clamp and next morning results wasnt as good as I expected. I tried adding some clear with very little success. How would you fix this and can it be done without stripping and clearing whole playfield?

WP_20160617_09_42_22_Pro_(resized).jpg
IMG_0106_(resized).jpg

0

#3358 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Manimal:
Vid, As you can see, the shooter lane on this Getaway is pretty dirty, and a bit of the grain has lifted, making it pretty rough. The rest of the playfield is in great shape, but I need to address this area. If I sand using the dowel or pipe, can I re-clear using the SprayMax 2K? Or will that hold up for this purpose? I am going to try and get of the dirt out, but I am betting a lot of it is too deep.
Thanks

You can try sanding, but I think that dirt has gone too deep. You would sand off too much wood before you got to clean fibers.

Paint it, and then clear over it.

Because the shooter lane is not sanded dead flat, you could even put 2PAC on with a small brush, if you don't want to waste a whole can of Spraymax.

0

#3408 7 years ago

CEM

BlueBlood

Pinside+ Frequent

8y 37,550 68

This is a side view of a lower playfield from a Haunted House. How would we tackle a slightly warped playfield? I understand adding a flat bar or some angle iron to the backside to flatten the playfield. If 2pac is added and then the playfield release from the flat bar, would this add pressure to the clear coat and possibly damage it?

image_(resized).jpeg

0

1

#3419 7 years ago

FCB

Fred736

Pinside member

8y 33,050 152 3

Quoted from BlueBlood:
Would the premixed shellac play well with the 2-pac or do I have to use the shellac flakes mixed?

I used that same Zinsser shellac and then cleared it with 2pac and had no issues at all.
IMG_20160709_180309_(resized).jpg

0

#3500 7 years ago

JAB

jboner1058

Pinside member

Bridgeton, NJ

8y 53,550 985 5 9

I'm painting my wire ramps with deep red glossy rustoleum pro spray paint. Can I spray 2pac on them for extra protection?

0

#3511 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from UvulaBob:
Assuming the Oramask won't pull it up, is there any reason I can't use the Createx Top Coat Gloss finish on color 1 before moving on to color 2? Is that going to be a problem with the 2-part auto clear down the line?

I've never tried it, so please report your results.

I just shoot 2PAC between colors to lock it down.

0

#3519 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from jimy_speedt:
So if I have read carefully, magic eraser with isopropyl, then clear coat ?

Alcohol might absorb into the wood and further raise the grain.

Quoted from jimy_speedt:
I do not intend to strip the whole playfield, and I gave up with the gun+compressor, my house suffered when I tried

Like Lb1 said, if you "spot clear" in the center of a playfield, the edge tends to lift up.

Just like a car, you really can't just spot clear, or it peels.

That's the busiest part of the entire playfield, so any exposed edge is going to get damaged.

Quoted from jimy_speedt:
can I use a foam brush to put the clearcoat over the damaged areas ? I have the good clearcoat.

Good 2PAC clear will probably melt a foam brush, making an even bigger mess.

You would have to carefully sand with 800grit, then apply the clear.

0

#3522 7 years ago

MSC

D-Gottlieb

Pinside member

8y 55,800 1,987

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but is there any reason why I couldn't mylar the entire playfield of Volley after using some eyedropper applied 2pac to level the inserts, rather than clear coat the playfield? Pros and cons? The only thing that continues to be an issue on this machine is the cupped inserts. Otherwise, the playfield has no wear.

0

#3590 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Lermods:
I searched the guide and didnt see anything for older em games. Seems filling with 2 pac is what is suggested, but wasnt sure for older games.

Filling with 2PAC works great on older EMs.

It reinforces the insert, so it stops any further cupping.

Make sure you level the inserts and then glue them in place before you start.

0

#3642 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from jaystile:
I have this same exact issue on my premium, but I have an additional chip where the cutout is. My larger 'bubble' is just crackled right now. Vid, is the best procedure to sand out all the cracked clear before reapplying?

the little bottle from Stern is just clear nail polish, not actual 2PAC clearcoat.

If you had real 2PAC, you might be able to inject it into the crack with a syringe to do the repair.

0

1

#3660 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from clg:
I am looking at STTNG that has been sitting for a long time. Some of the inserts have very slightly sunken, you can feel it with your finger but it would not affect play. I am concerned about the wear it could generate it is a small enough drop it may not even cause wear. This applies to about a dozen inserts.
Any suggestions about how to approach this?

You can wax and then Mylar over them.

Or you can fill the gaps with 2PAC to prevent wear.

0

#3700 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Just use 2PAC before you decal and you know it will never yellow, even if exposed to sunlight for years.

0

2

#3714 7 years ago

DDW

sohchx

Pinside member

9y 87,050 2,259 76

Quoted from pinballinreno:
Use at your own risk,
Some people have reported yellowing:
Posted By: Jerry Wesolowski <[email protected]>
Date: Sunday, 14 November 1999, at 12:31 p.m.
In Response To: Re: The Future debate revisited (TONY)
And now for the sad news. About five years ago I built up a WINGS 48 JILL. I coated the canopy with Future to show of the scratch built interior. When the Hasegawa kit was released, I took the vacu-formed kit off the shelf to compare them side-by-side. Lo and behold' over time the future finish does indeed yellow. So much so that it almost looked as if I had sprayed the canopy with Tamiya clear yellow. I hate to burst any bubbles but it really was noticeable.

This is exactly why I started using only 2PAC on all of my model builds. I too used Future back in the 90's, fast forward to now and it is a night and day difference if you look at my builds from then compared to now, the yellowing is way obvious. It is extremely obvious on the white and light colored cars.

0

#3760 7 years ago

NRC

JLebowski

Pinside member

Holland, MI

7y 38,550 87 5

I'm prepping my Space Shuttle playfield for an Ed Cheung overlay. The artwork was trashed, so I've sanded down the whole playfield to bare wood. Previous owner had played with rusty/scabby balls for years then just let it sit.

How do I prep the bare wood for the overlay and then eventual 2pac clearcoat? Should I just use 2pac on the bare wood and then apply the overlay and insert text decals? Or should I seal the bare wood with something like water-based varathane first prior to 2pac clear coat + overlay + 2pac clear coat again?

My initial thought was to perform the following stepwise process: 2pac to bare wood -> sand lightly -> apply overlay and insert decals -> 2pac again, with sanding/leveling/polishing. But now I am hesitating because I don't know how the 2pac will adhere to bare wood.

FYI, I am using the 2k Spraymax 2pac in a rattle can.

Thank you so much for a great guide, Vid!

0

#3761 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Since you don't care if the Varathane turns yellow/amber under the overlay, you can use it (although 2PAC would be WAY faster to build up a completely level surface).

Dampen the raw wood with water, allow to dry, then gently sand back the raised grain before you Varathane.

You will probably have to tone the wood of the shooter lane or it will look too white vs. the rails.

0

#3764 7 years ago

DAV

PersonX99

GSP mods

Manchester, NH

12y 87,550 1,102 16 36 1

I have a pf I am just about ready to clearcoat for the first time. I have repainted most of it. I was thinking about using the SprayMax 2PAC.
I live in the NE so it is 40-50s outside. My garage can be heated. I plan to level the pf in the cab (its an EM) and spray it while still in the cab (sealing everything else off, of course).

My question is...could I spray the clear while I am outside (in the cold) and then immediately move it into the heated garage to cure between coats? Would I get the temperature related issues if I did this?

My reason for spraying outside is seems easier than building a spray booth in the garage, but I am not sure if the temporary exposure to coolers temps while spraying will create problems. Once it is in the garage, it will be in a more temperature controlled environment while it cures.

0

#3767 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from PersonX99:
My question is...could I spray the clear while I am outside (in the cold) and then immediately move it into the heated garage to cure between coats? Would I get the temperature related issues if I did this?

I've never shot Spraymax (it's way too expensive compared to 2PAC), but shooting in the cold will end up a disaster.

Make sure the spray, the playfield and the garage are all up to the temp on the can for 12 hours, and shoot in the garage.

0

#3839 7 years ago

GUS

Plumonium

Pinside member

Montreal, QC

9y 60,550 1,496 5 7

Hi Vid,

I'm restoring my Pinbot and decided to bite the bullet and refinish my playfield as well. The playfield had factory mylar which removed pretty good. As you can see in the pictures, I got very little paint loss except a few places and got some planking as well.

I through fully cleaned the playfield with magic eraser and alcohol. I still have to sand the shooter lane.

I intend to airbrush solid colors wherever is needed. I needed to patch 2 holes with bondo and I sanded flat.

There are a few screw holes the have the top layer of veneer cracked and split as you can see in the pictures, should I do anything for those?

Is it mandatory to clear before airbrushing?

Can I base clear with water based spray can varathane and do the final clear with 2pac? Then I can only take the playfield to a paint shop when I'm totally done.

Basically, from what what you see and hear, what would be my next steps?

Thanks!

-G

IMG_4472 (resized).JPGIMG_4673 (resized).JPGIMG_4686 (resized).JPGIMG_4684 (resized).JPGIMG_4678 (resized).JPGIMG_4677 (resized).JPGIMG_4676 (resized).JPGIMG_4459 (resized).JPGIMG_4461 (resized).JPGIMG_4675 (resized).JPGIMG_4679 (resized).JPGIMG_4672 (resized).JPGIMG_4458 (resized).JPG

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1

#3854 7 years ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,522 31

Quoted from sethbenjamin:
Would you recommend scoring around the insert perimeters first? I can't believe I missed those.

That would be the best approach to get as little ghosting as possible.
If you do get ghosting, and it doesnt lift any artwork, its not too bad to scrape out areas mix a little 2pac and fill with a dropper.
and of course fill any chipped areas at the same time.

Go slow, take your time.

0

#3889 7 years ago

GUS

Plumonium

Pinside member

Montreal, QC

9y 60,550 1,496 5 7

Hi Vid, I'm about to start trying to find a local paint shop to do the base clear coat over my Pinbot before I do touch-ups. What should I look for or avoid?

Type/Brand/Mix of automotive clear that are OK and not OK, Any type they are using?

Amount of clear to apply and how since it's probably going to be their first playfield. Or does it make a difference?

Basically what question should I ask when calling? I'd like them to take my playfield anytime they plan on doing clearcoat on other automotive pieces so they do all at the same time for minimum cost. To make it simple for them, I thinking saying I got a fancy flat piece of 2'x4' plywood to 2pac. Would that work you think?

Thanks man.

0

1

#3901 7 years ago

BSM

sethbenjamin

ReplayResto

Greenfield, MA

12y 84,050 1,448 8

One avenue people might want to consider for "subbing out" your clear coating - I do work for a large cabinet shop that has an in-house finisher. I showed up with my cans of 2PAC and the guy knew just what to do, no questions asked, he did the preliminary clear on my playfield as well as priming and painting a reproduction pinball cabinet and backbox for $50, and told me to bring the pf back when I was ready and he would do the final clear coating (and level sanding) for no additional charge.

So, find out if there is a cabinet shop or furniture refinisher in your town. Those guys work with volatile finishes every day and are set up to work with them safely. Plus they know how these products behave and will probably need little to no explanation of what you're looking for. If your local professional is a nice person, they'll probably think it's kinda cool and want to help you out.

0

2

#3908 7 years ago

BSM

sethbenjamin

ReplayResto

Greenfield, MA

12y 84,050 1,448 8

Thanks Vid! All in all, so far at least, this process is a lot less work that it sounds like in your description. No doubt I'm not working at the level that you would be, but your instructions have made it really easy to work along and get good results. If I can make it though the waterslide process, this project will be ready to clear.

The CPR website recommends allowing 6 weeks before repopulating a playfield, which seems excessive to me. If we're all using some variation on the 2PAC that you have recommended (I got mine at the local NAPA; it isn't the specific variety you mentioned but essentially the same stuff), is that really necessary? Not that there's any real rush, I'd just like to hear what you typically recommend.

0

1

#3909 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

CPR website is being conservative because when you are dealing with the public, someone is going to screw something up.

Also the 2PAC they have in Canada may be a different formula than other countries.

You can always do a fingernail test, if you can leave a mark, it's not fully hard.

0

#3977 7 years ago

MAP

Radius118

Pinside member

Sedro-woolley, WA

9y 36,300 521

So it looks like the previous owner of this game wanted to move the outlane post. Rather than unscrewing it after removing the bottom nut it appears that he tapped it with a hammer or something. The post grabbed the wood and/or clear and started lifting. Fortunately he stopped before the damage was too severe.

I used to fix things like this by injecting CA glue into the cracks in the clear, covering with wax paper and clamping with a block of wood for 24 hours. Unfortunately I am not going to be able to get the dirt out of the cracks unless I carefully cut away the clear a little bit and clean it which means I would have to fill the divot with CA, clear or some other adhesive - see below. I think at this point I'd rather leave it rather than risk making the damage worse.

Is this still a viable way to repair or are there better ways now? I know I could use some 2PAC to do this but I don't have any handy and don't want to buy any until I am ready to do some clear coating since the activators go bad even if you've never opened the can.

There are also some newer adhesives on the market based on trimethoxysilanes. These are supposed to dry crystal clear instead of leaving the milky haze that CA's can leave. They are also supposed to be more resilient to shocks, water, temps, etc. Has anyone tried any of these adhesives. One brand is Loctite G02 Glue. I have a bottle and one downside I see is the liquid is rather thick, rather than water thin like CA which would make it more difficult to get down under the crack.

I have the playfield completely stripped for a major shopping and polishing, so I'd like to get this repair done as soon as I can.

Opinions?

Thanks..

IMG_20170123_234748819_HDR (resized).jpg
IMG_20170123_234820822_HDR (resized).jpg

0

#3980 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Radius118:
I have the playfield completely stripped for a major shopping and polishing, so I'd like to get this repair done as soon as I can.

If it were my own game, I'd just leave it.

But for a client, I'd scrape out the cracks with an Xacto, then fill them with 2PAC.

0

#3996 7 years ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,522 31

Quoted from sohchx:
I can touch it up by airbrush no problem, what I want to do though is level the wear spots to the playfield. They are basically small craters right now.

Mask off the area, cover everything with towels,
Fill small craters with liquid bondo or 2pac and sand with a pen sander:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA3912D86396&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Tools+-+Other+Power-_-9SIA3912D86396&gclid=Cj0KEQiA5bvEBRCM6vypnc7QgMkBEiQAUZftQM2QgZdTmIXYRFz2KivXNwaM87zX9p7LUeL2SoyXsOoaAhho8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

Then airbrush the color.

0

#3997 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from sohchx:
Vid, For Stern playfields 2003 and up how would you go about repairs small spots that are down to the wood bordering inserts? This is the field in question and the wear is on the right side at letter's I and N inserts where it reads PINBALL. You will probably have to save the photo and zoom in close to see it.

Repaint the entire blue circle, not just the hole. That way it won't look like a patch as the new paint fades.

Fill with 2PAC to level it.

Wax it well, and cover the entire area with Mylar.

0

#4007 7 years ago

CJN

Joey_N

Pinside member

Madison, AL

11y 31,900 277 1

Long story short.. bought a "roached out" KISS project/parts game over 10yrs ago. Missing bg, game had smoke damage, so playfield yellowed on top of flaking badly, cabinet so/so.. really a basis to use repro parts.

I have the repro IPB backglass and plastics. Didn't buy a repro playfield 10yrs ago when they were $450. Damn.. I'm on the CPR repro preorder list, but I have this one-

Bought this slightly worn playfield from a Pinsider a year or so ago. It's absolutely restorable, but my biggest issue is the 40,000 and 80,000 text. I have sprayed 2pac, done some touch ups, it's not completely new to me. I think the best/only way to rectify this wear would be using decals.

Don't wanna go the Classicarcades route, plus I don't need all of that.

I can barely find time to do anything. Is there ANYONE on Pinside that could make decals for the text, possibly just the black layer, for pay?

I understand the how, and have a high res photo of a good one to work from, but at this rate, I'll never get around to it, as the decals seem like a mini project in themselves.

Also, the grid looks like it would be a PITA to repair.

464042 (resized).jpg
IMG_0908 (resized).JPG
IMG_0914 (resized).JPG

0

#4053 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from WhiskeyTango:
Follow ups:
1. Does my home in Florida count? We keep the house relatively cool @ 76-78.

THAT'S FINE.

Quoted from WhiskeyTango:
4. Would an acrylic pen be sufficient?

I HAVE NO IDEA. CREATEX PAINTS ARE ONLY $3, WHY RISK THE UNKNOWN?

Quoted from WhiskeyTango:
5. Is there a recommended clear for CPR boards?

ANY 2PAC WOULD BE GOOD.

Quoted from WhiskeyTango:
6. Flat as in level surface or surface finish?

BOTH. SAND THE PLAYFIELD BETWEEN CLEAR COATS, SO THE INSERTS ARE NOT TALLER THAN THE WOOD.

0

1

#4057 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from DaWezl:
Thank you for clearing that up for me, Vid! I thought there might be a difference in the industrial terms vs what can be picked up by regular consumers.

All the auto paint suppliers will not sell you 2PAC or 2K if they think you are going to kill yourself spraying it.

Just like they won't sell it over the web (you have to call their toll free number and pay by credit card).

So you have to read the data about the product and ask for it like you use it every day.

If you sound like an idiot, they will refuse the sale.

You can ask a **dumb** question if you phrase it correctly. "Hey, I've never used this brand but the customer is requesting it. I'm right on the boarderline at 70*F in our shop, would you recommend the Med or Slow hardener?"

See how you act like you shoot 2K everyday, but you are only uncertain because of a new brand? See how you have read the data sheet, so you know you are on the line? The guy at the counter will gladly help you out.

0

#4062 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from sohchx:
Vid, I'm working on this right now. If it was in your hands, how would you proceed? I will never trust non adhesive Mylar after seeing this.

Non-adhesive Mylar is the dumbest thing ever invented.

It has chewed up so many Gottliebs.

You can do a conventional restoration; matching the colors, leveling the valley with 2PAC, then putting an adhesive protector on the top.

Or you can level the valley with 2PAC, and cut a new protector from 3" Mylar tape in green or blue, hiding the wear.

0

#4121 7 years ago

GUS

Plumonium

Pinside member

Montreal, QC

9y 60,550 1,496 5 7

Hey vid,

I recently had my playfield sealed with 2pac and started my paint touch ups. Once in a while, when I remove the frisket (even though low tack) it lifts the clearcoat from the edge where I cut the frisket (it scored the clear). Basically creating a ghosting effect. I'm now very careful when cutting the frisket but still it scores the clear.

A few places, I just use my xacto to remove/scratch the ghosted clear as it's not sticking to the playfield anymore but I wonder if when I clear again if the new clear will run underneath those and I'll be all good?

I fear the original seal coat will start lifting after I'm done. What do you think?

Like this example:

8aebe6f8a9fd4a87880785fce666da33ef5036d8 (resized).jpg

0

#4130 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Mikala:
Vid, will I have issues using Zinsser water based clear shellac under the clear coat? It's a little late, but I did not know there where different kinds.

Impossible to say.

Not every crazy combination has been documented.

Usually water based clears are the troublemakers.

But people have used water based to seal raw wood, the overcoat with 2PAC; that seems to go without problems - so you might be OK as long as your topcoat is 2PAC.

0

#4131 7 years ago

BRI

Knoler

Inactive member

Southborough, MA

8y 38,050 176

Hi Vid,

Was wondering what you'd suggest for a problem like the one below, on a routed Stern Star Trek I just picked up. No other issues on the rest of the playfield, other than it being dirty as hell, so I think it might have happened due to a tech dropping a tool or something.

Planning on using water slide decals and photoshop to recreate the art. Not sure how to go about protecting the area around the fix and making sure it's all level.

Concerned about 2PAC because of fumes and lack of proper ventiliation in my work space. So, any other options would be great.

Thanks!

image (resized).jpg

0

#4132 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Knoler:
Was wondering what you'd suggest for a problem like the one below, on a routed Stern Star Trek I just picked up. No other issues on the rest of the playfield, other than it being dirty as hell, so I think it might have happened due to a tech dropping a tool or something.

Could be a nicked ball.

That's an odd hole for being the only wear in front of a target.

Quoted from Knoler:
Planning on using water slide decals and photoshop to recreate the art. Not sure how to go about protecting the area around the fix and making sure it's all level.

Bring up the hole by dripping 2PAC into it and then sanding it flush.

Quoted from Knoler:
Concerned about 2PAC because of fumes and lack of proper ventiliation in my work space. So, any other options would be great.

There are no other options than Mylar.

You might just want to Mylar the area unrepaired. Then wait until Spring when you can work outside the house.

0

#4144 7 years ago

JUL

bobmorlock

Pinside member

8y 31,850 40

Fist of all thanks so much for this guide, this is an awesome source of information.
I can't get equiped properly for a complete reclear yet, but I would like to protect a chip that just happened on my MMR shooter lane. Shall I just put a mylar on it, and maybe a protector? Or shall I first sand, drop a bit of 2pac, and sand flat before waxing and applying mylar? When I am ready the playfield will be stripped and recleared, someday...

IMG_20170216_124659 (resized).jpg

0

#4148 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from bobmorlock:
Fist of all thanks so much for this guide, this is an awesome source of information.
I can't get equiped properly for a complete reclear yet, but I would like to protect a chip that just happened on my MMR shooter lane. Shall I just put a mylar on it, and maybe a protector? Or shall I first sand, drop a bit of 2pac, and sand flat before waxing and applying mylar? When I am ready the playfield will be stripped and recleared, someday...

Lightly sand the area, then brush on some 2PAC.

Mylar and play

0

#4158 7 years ago

JDB

kilmarnock1350

Pinside member

Pensacola, FL

9y 34,800 398 25

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
The adhesive will pull the paint off the playfield.

Last one on this subject I promise.

Even pull up 2PAC?

Same with playfield protector adhesive? Thanks Vid

0

#4173 7 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Alright, so after considering everything, and having come this far, I am basically all in: got my Createx and Frisket, just ordering some 2PAC now. I want to make this thing nice. The only thing that I do not have the resources for is spraying the 2PAC...kids, lack of space, weather, etc...it's just not happening. So my hybrid solution is this: I'll foam brush it on as I would polyurethane (unless you guys think it will eat the foam) and get it as smooth as possible for the first coat, and then the overcoat for the decals, sanding in between. Then, for the final coat and buffing, I'll bring the board to the local auto body guy and have him do that part.

0

#4183 7 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from RampShot11:
Vid,
I am about to fill in a couple of deep gouges on a WCS playfield. I saw you said to use 2 part wood epoxy for a majority of the gouge and then the rest with Bondo. My question is how do I sand the bondo nice and flat without damaging the playfield around the bondo? Wet sand?

If there are painted surfaces around the gouge that are not getting repainted, then it might be safer to just fill the gouges with 2PAC.

400 ways to skin a cat, and we have to find the best one for each situation.

0

#4184 7 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Agreed with the mist, I learned that the hard way with model decals that were cheap back when. I think I may have found a solution, however.

One additional question: I saw that, prudently, you said to wear the respirator when filling inserts, etc, with 2PAC. I'm assuming the bunny suit and all that is not required, just enough time for the 2PAC stench to dissipate.

0

#4203 7 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

I know this has probably been beaten to death over the years, but the old links just don't work anymore: anyone know a good source of the plastic primer online somewhere? I can't be sure if what I am finding is the right stuff.

One more question, Vid: you said you do your insert repair prior to laying down clear, which is what I am attempting to do. How is it that you can fill the inserts with 2PAC, and then sand them down without sanding down the paint on the play field? I am sure you can be very, very careful...but is there any other way at all? I already have removed the old top coat with ME & EtOH.

0

#4242 7 years ago

FUN

pinheadpierre

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 94,800 2,559 16 1

Hey Vid - what the heck do you think happened here? My white fields look totally wrinkled. This is createx opaque white under 2pac. What should I do to fix it? Sand flat and try again? Was the white too thick or did the surface not have enough tooth for it to bond properly? I am flummoxed and want to avoid repeating my mistake.

20170426_163959 (resized).jpg

0

#4257 6 years ago

MAC

Sheprd

Pinside member

11y 62,650 547

Quoted from pinheadpierre:
Hey Vid - what the heck do you think happened here? My white fields look totally wrinkled. This is createx opaque white under 2pac. What should I do to fix it? Sand flat and try again? Was the white too thick or did the surface not have enough tooth for it to bond properly? I am flummoxed and want to avoid repeating my mistake.

What brand/type of 2PAC did you use? It seems to have been quite "hot" to attack Createx like that.

0

#4277 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from shutyertrap:
I'm hoping to spray clear for my first time this week. First off, is there a PSI that everyone prefers?

You will probably be on the high side of the products recommended PSI if you are using the HF gun.

When I try out a new product, I shoot a little on a sheet of cardboard, adjust the air, shoot again, and go. It's really easy to see you have the right air.

If you just want to play with the gun, shoot a few ounces of Lacquer Thinner and see how she works.

Quoted from shutyertrap:
It's just I've read elsewhere of people using something in the 20's.

Their gauge must be inaccurate. Even my $400 guns won't spray 2PAC at 20psi.

Quoted from shutyertrap:
My other question is if I want to shoot more than one coat, what do I do with the gun inbetween? Am I able to leave it as is for the 20 minutes of setting and then spray again, or do I have to clean in between?

The can will tell you the "pot life" of how long it will sit in the gun. 1-2 hours is normal depending on temp and product.

Use your leftover 2PAC to give light coats over other playfields between colors, or wooden playfield rails, or dripping it in to level sunken inserts, or ......

0

#4286 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from northside-irish:
In the process I started pulling up large chunks of the polyurethane so I stopped

Water based poly is crap.

It not very clear.

It dulls the colors.

It does not wear well.

It does not polish to a high sheen.

And, of course, you can often peel it off the playfield.

7c424265aeffbcf01c02b3a66d699c3edede4cdc (resized).jpg

Peel off all you can, let the playfield sit in a warm location for a few weeks, and then try locking down the rest with 2PAC.

Hopefully, the remaining poly will stay put under the 2PAC.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/16#post-1667109

0

#4306 6 years ago

SYT

shutyertrap

Pinside member

La Habra, CA

10y 32,150 120 3

Almost an entire sheet of 400 grit paper later, I believe I got all the fish eyes. I swear I took off all the clear, as it's a dull hazed surface now, but to the touch it's for sure there. Where the fish eye was happening, what I see now are all these little divers, seemingly wherever a star was painted.

IMG_2103 (resized).JPG

Is this where the eye dropper of 2pac comes in? To the touch it feels like these little tiny dents. Am I okay to start painting and then when it comes time to clear fill those spots, or fill them now, buff, and then paint?

IMG_2104 (resized).JPG

0

#4317 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

For inserts with chips and small gouges on them, will the process of leveling with 2PAC fill those in so they are unnoticeable? Or should they be sanded down to remove that and flatten it out before using the clear?

0

#4319 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from La_Porta:
For inserts with chips and small gouges on them, will the process of leveling with 2PAC fill those in so they are unnoticeable? Or should they be sanded down to remove that and flatten it out before using the clear?

2PAC simply fills them in.

Usually I do the valley around each insert, so at the same time, I fill in any chips.

0

3

#4333 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Don't think of a WS decal like a paper or vinyl decal, think of it as a temporary substrate.

The solvents in the 2PAC melt the decal substrate, and all you see is the ink.

As long as you have a layer of 2PAC above and below the decal, it can't lift, because the decal itself has become saturated with clear.

If you apply too thick of a first layer of 2PAC, you see that the decal shrivels up into a ball (you've put too much tension on the face of the decal).

If you try to apply 2PAC with a brush, you see the decal instantly disintegrate.

So:

1. Apply your decal, allow to dry.

2. Dust on a thin layer of 2PAC. This layer will have a matte finish. The solvents will make the 2PAC to permeate through the decal, allowing the surface tension to equalize.

3. 15 minutes latter put on the lightest coat of 2PAC that looks barely glossy. This layer saturates the decal, melting it, fusing the ink to the playfield.

4. 30 minutes latter put on a normal thin coat of 2PAC.

0

#4397 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from brenna98:
Vid-
I've done a couple bride of pinbot playfields and they both have this spotting issue. None of this showed up until about a month after completed.

That's called insert blooming:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/18#post-1739707

Try to use the fastest 2PAC hardener available.

Quoted from brenna98:
Any suggestions how to fix this?

Take the tip of a brand new Xacto blade and **spin** it over the bubbles, perforating them. Drip 2PAC into the holes and the clear will creep in. Do a few at the back of the playfield, so you can get a feel how it works.

0

#4402 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from brenna98:
With all those little blooms on each insert, it would be very tedious to drip clear into all of them. Do you think it would be faster/easier to sand past the bloom defects, then clear the entire playfield again?

Depending on how cured the 2PAC is, it may be difficult to sand through, while not damaging the text.

If there was not 2PAC on it, then you could mask the text and scrape off the inserts; so the only blooming would be between the letters.

0

#4409 6 years ago

LUD

lb1

Pinside member

Bay Area, CA

11y 66,800 1,242 1

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I hit mine with Novus3, until they are evenly frosted.
Then I use Novus2, and they come out crystal clear.
Mask around the lamps, because you don't want to slip and scratch the paint with the Novus3 on the buffer, lol.

No 2PAC??? They'll likely get yellow again unless they are protected.

0

#4411 6 years ago

LUD

lb1

Pinside member

Bay Area, CA

11y 66,800 1,242 1

After sanding bottom left. Before sanding bottom right. After 1 coat of 2PAC top. 10 minutes total time.

IMG_4091 (resized).JPG
IMG_4061 (resized).JPG

0

#4426 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from dawasa:
I have never used FR before. How would I be pouring it? Will a razor blade scraping get FR flush with playfield? Also would I be removing Tape before scraping to know the FR is flush with the playfield?
Is that Bondo FR ok to use?

You mix it up in a glass cup (like a kitchen measuring cup), and pour.

It's a little thinner than honey.

Cure time can be fast if it's warm in the shop - you might want to practice on a hole in some plywood.

Scrape with tape on to protect paint. Any depressions will fill in with 2PAC.

0

#4433 6 years ago

SYT

shutyertrap

Pinside member

La Habra, CA

10y 32,150 120 3

Quoted from kilmarnock1350:
What color white did you use and how did you do the lettering?
Thanks. Looking good. Agree with Vid, use a planet scan to fill in the damaged area. Random helps.
Firepower forever!

I used the Creatix opaque white. For the lettering I did exactly what I did for all other areas painted...covered in frisket and then cut out with X-acto knife. Turns out you can do extremely narrow cuts like the pinstripes or lettering without worrying about the frisket lifting or bunching. I tried using a straight edge to guide my cuts on the initial batch of lettering I did and found it was better to free hand them. Reason being is with each edge I had to lift the blade, then do the next, and so on. Well making to cuts meet without it getting sloppy is extremely difficult! On top of that, the font has a lot of curved corners, not crisp. So eventually I just made one continuous cut, never lifting the blade, rotating my body or switching to my left hand to have a good cutting angle. The end result is no, the letters aren't perfect, but from a players standing position at the flippers, they'll never notice. It wasn't that precise a job Williams did on them either! I actually improved a lot of the pinstripes as some would taper off into the black for a 1/4 inch as if the silk screening didn't take. I compared to another person's Firepower and same thing happened with theirs, only in different spots so I knew it wasn't a design thing. Point being with all of this is, I'm not doing a perfect restore, I'm just trying to make a smooth, fast playing surface that is clear coated while also taking care of some of the more glaring wear issues or fading. I'm still undecided if I'll attempt anything with the planet, and I'll leave that for the last thing to be done.

Also want to point out that because of the psi you have to shoot Creatix out at, mask large areas. My buddy's airbrush station I was using, the paint he uses for his projects only requires 15 psi so you can really finesse and not worry about over spray. The Creatix needs to be shot at 45-50 psi we discovered, mainly it seems so any clog that starts happening in the tip just gets rocketed out of it. At first my friend was looking up info on airbrush forums, and they were all saying to dilute it 10, saying Creatix is really meant for t-shirts. I had him read Vid's specific post about the paint, and he had to alter his frame of mind for how to set up for this purpose. I couldn't answer why this was the paint of choice, only that everyone here seems to like it and it doesn't pose any issues with 2pac. Just saying, not having used an airbrush before myself, I went to someone who uses them all the time, and it caused us about an hour of trial and error as he had to unlearn his normal ways of setup.

0

#4460 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from pinballinreno:
Seeing that the painted or inked playfield wood is a different surface material than the inserts, does it make sense that one should apply or dab on a specific plastic primer or adhesion promoter over the inserts if they were sanded down to the plastic?

The best way to get the clear to stick is to have a very rough surface. 2PAC sticks to 400 grit sanded plastic just fine, and shows no scratches once cured.

Quoted from pinballinreno:
What adhesion promoter would be suitable for dabbing on over the inserts?

I've used Bulldog Adhesion Promoter on a brand new inserts to see if it melted them or not, and it seems fine.

Test on a junk insert to make sure it's compatible with the era of game you are restoring.

bulldog-adhesive-promoter-large-can (resized).png

0

#4475 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from kcZ:
I peeled it and it broke in 2

Now what do I do about this area?

Easy fix.

Don't get a bunch of fingerprint oil on the pieces.

Put small amount of 2PAC on the insert, stick pieces back in place, cover with wax paper, clamp:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/2#post-551833

0

#4494 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Insane:
what kind of cleaning do i need to do before that, just good wipe with naptha? Or what? There are better pics in my thread.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dealers-choice-repair-restore#post-3821346

Clean the whole playfield with Naphtha,

gently sand with 800g for some tooth,

sand dirt out of shooter lane (or repaint),

sand cupped inserts (you can sometimes touch up the black keylines at this point),

fill cupped inserts with 2PAC,

clean with Naphtha, spray thin **lock down** coat of 2PAC

Start repainting.

0

#4495 6 years ago

LSK

Insane

Pinside+ Frequent

Baroda, MI

10y 80,800 1,967 6 9

Vid, you say i need to spray a "lock down" coat of 2pac, is the purpose to just lock down the paint for where it is fragile? The paint on this isn't flaking or coming up anywhere. If it wasn't for the planking, it would be great. I think you are going to say its also so that you can easily wipe off or remove your new paint. But just want to make sure. I'm going to try to clean up as much as i can of the pf. Hopefully i can get away with painting the pink and toughing up the others a little. don't want to try to repaint the cards and the numbers. Also around some of the roll over holes, they are chewed up a little. i think i saw where i should bondo them, correct?

0

#4499 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Plumonium:
Hey Vid,
I finished my paint touch-up and did my first 2 coats of clear (spraymax 2k in can). After the first coat, an issue appeared over the white and light grey touched-up areas, see after sanding:

Happened mostly at the edges but I could see some wrinkling in the white and blue as well.
Even in this picture, the white was done months apart using a different paint (1st time createx, 2nd time spectra-tex) You can notice the different tone white.
I bit the bullet and repainted the grey, will redo all the white next. Now, in order to avoid this happening again, what when wrong?
Too much clear on the initial coat over paint? Too much/thick paint?
Thanks!

I've never tried 2K in a can, so I can't say that I've seen this effect with regular 2PAC myself.

The fact that it is along the edges tells me it's some sort of reaction between the first coat of 2K and the final coat of 2K.

Next time, make sure the 2nd coat is super thin, so it's **heat** does not upset the 1st layer.

Did it happen instantly, or did it take 20 minutes?

0

#4504 6 years ago

FUN

pinheadpierre

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 94,800 2,559 16 1

Quoted from Plumonium:
Yes there was. I sealed my touch-ups using it in-between coats.
I was suggested to use it.

Dollars to donuts that's your issue. You'll probably need to sand down the wrinkled white, seal it with 2pac, repaint the white and clear again.

0

#4532 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Ok, so I think that I might have screwed this one up. On my FP, I re-glued the extra ball insert after some pretty serious sanding. Unfortunately, I got interrupted by my nephew after gluing, and the thing sunk quite a bit after the epoxy dried. Here are some pictures of the results:

IMG_3791 (resized).JPGIMG_3793 (resized).JPGIMG_3792 (resized).JPG

Now, of course, it is glued in place. Is this too deep to paint the sides, fill with 2PAC, and later on place the key line decal and hope for the best? Or, can I do that and have it look decent? Do I need to chisel this thing and it's epoxy out and order a new insert?

0

#4536 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from La_Porta:
Is this too deep to paint the sides, fill with 2PAC, and later on place the key line decal and hope for the best? Or, can I do that and have it look decent? Do I need to chisel this thing and it's epoxy out and order a new insert?

Black out the wood, fill with 2PAC, it will be fine.

Do the keyline decal after filling and sanding flush.

Think how deep some of the cupped inserts are, and they are perfect once filled with 2PAC.

0

#4606 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from La_Porta:
How about gouges like this on top of inserts? Should I just sand and fill with clear? Or should I take off all of the top, including paint, and get it back flat?

DON'T SAND INSERTS FLAT.

They are too thin already, that's why they cupped.

Scuff them up with sandpaper for tooth, then fill them with 2PAC to level and reinforce.

0

#4634 6 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Lutz, FL

8y 61,300 1,306 4 7

I'm starting a restore of my Crosstown playfield. The intention is to touch up the paint, fill the inserts and clear with 2pac. I finished removing everything from the top tonight and am a bit shocked at the amount of dirt and paint lose. My next step is to do an initial clean, then melamine. Is it OK to use simple green on a rag to do the initial cleaning? My shoes are cleaner than this.

IMG_0207 (resized).JPG

IMG_0208 (resized).JPG

IMG_0209 (resized).JPG

0

#4636 6 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Lutz, FL

8y 61,300 1,306 4 7

Vid is there a limit to how much insert cupping that can be fixed by filling with 2PAC? Most of my inserts on a 66 Crosstown are cupped a reasonable amount, but several are approximately 3/32 deep. Thanks for the help.

0

#4640 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Silverstreak02:
Vid is there a limit to how much insert cupping that can be fixed by filling with 2PAC? Most of my inserts on a 66 Crosstown are cupped a reasonable amount, but several are approximately 3/32 deep. Thanks for the help.

3/32" is a piece of cake for 2PAC.

0

#4650 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from tomds:
Can anyone advise what I should do with the bare wood areas on this Central Park playfiled? The dark areas (see pics) have started to raise slightly where I think it may have been damp at one stage. I intend to refurbish the playfield but didn't know what the best course of action was for prepping this area first?

Scan the playfield, so you have a backup, in case something goes terribly wrong.

Do any natural wood sanding (like the shooter lane) required, then lock down any flaky paint with a thin layer of 2PAC.

0

#4688 6 years ago

BAB

manples

Pinside member

Montpellier

7y 34,300 148 3

Hi Vid,

After several 2pac clear coats I've noticed some cracks in my inserts. That's what you call ghosting right?

Capture (resized).PNG

You said that it's a good idea to glue the inserts from the back to prevent them moving over time.

So before I spray the last coat, what kind of glue and method do you recommend to have these inserts fixed?

Any pictures appreciated thanks

0

#4710 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

All you guys that shoot PPG OMNI 161 2PAC, I've been told the price goes up next week.

Welle Auto still has the best price, and free shipping:

https://www.welleauto.com/index.php/online-shopping#!/PPG-Omni-Clears/p/75848595/category=13019520

You've got to call with your credit card, as PPG does not allow it to be sold on the web....

0

#4723 6 years ago

???

PinballBillinFL

Pinside+ Frequent

Fernandina Beach, FL

10y 27,650 81

Quoted from China_Grove:
This may have been covered (of which some have but maybe not all in one time) but just want to get a few steps correct as I am about to start an em machine if I can get the courage up to paint clear.
1. Remove all parts from playfield.
2. Magic eraser and alcohol clean with 90% plus.
3. Lock in inserts with 2 part epoxy, if all are tight from under playfield.
4a. SinceI have star rollover inserts, remove stars and place upsidedown on playfield to prevent cleari into star insert.
4b. Lightly sand before light coat of clear. If so what type of sand paper? And do you sand over inserts too?
4c. Put a light coat of clear down.
4d. Bond and planking or wood or holes and sand smooth.
5. Touch up field with air brush using masking tape or frisket or decals. Also use paint brush if needed for all touch up work in this step. Is a light clear coat required before or not?
6. After touching up, Do u sand before clearing the final two coats or just clear a few coats on top of all the work in above step?
7. Sand level with 600 and fill in any low spots with drops of clear to be completely level.
8. Sand from 600, 800, 1000, 2000. Then compound and polish shine.
9. Reassemble playfield.
Does above sound correct? Were do u scan playfield, before or after ME?
Also if u have to repair or paint the bare wood area, what color do u use. Mix a light brown color or just sand to bare wood and clear over?
Also if sanding the shooter lane and its markings from the ball, do you sand this area before the light clear coat in step 4c or after?
Sorry with all the questions but just wanted to get things straight before I dive into this project as I have never cleared a playfield, only airbrushed before and touched up with a can spray.
This probably has been stated for my answers somewhere in this posts but am unsure on a few and wanted to be clear.
Another question is do you leave the raised area on the playfield were the post may have been or sand flat and paint since the post will cover up area again?
Thanks in advance with any of these.

This is a great post, and covers many of the questions I have. This is an awesome thread, and I've read it many times, but sometimes the top level process is hard to see - sort of a forest for the trees situation.

I'll defer to others with more experience, but my take is that I would scan the playfield prior to cleaning with ME and alcohol, since that step may remove some loose paint. A step 1a, if you will.

I'm about to start on a 1975 Williams Little Chief that's in what I would think is fairly typical condition. Planking, worn areas, some down to wood, especially near the flippers, cupped inserts... Pictures below. I am a real noob at this, and have limited artistic ability, but there are a limited number of colors, and the shapes are all pretty much straight lines, so it seems like an ideal starter. For myself, I would ask a few additional questions:

1) Is it really possible to frisket/mask close enough to the black keylines that I would not need to make waterslide decals for them? Or should I assume that all the black keylines between colored areas should be relaid with decals? The keylining around most of the inserts is a given.
2) This will likely be a one time project, so I am thinking I will shop out the clearcoating rather than making a large investment in equipment to shoot 2PAC. Are there specific questions I should ask the shops I am considering for this work? Or... Does anybody in the Jacksonville FL area have experience with a local shop? As an alternative, I am also considering the spray 2PAC in a can and whipping up a pvc/plastic sheet spray booth (and the requisite safety equipment), but I'd rather have a pro do this.
3) What's the best way to get the gummy rubber residue off the plastic posts? Oddly the rubber that had not turned brittle and fallen off has gummed up a number of the posts, and goo gone doesn't seem to work that well, though it does work..

Any other tips, hints or things I should watch for?

playfield - top (resized).jpg

playfield - center (resized).jpg

playfield - lower (resized).jpg

0

#4725 6 years ago

BMR

twenty6point2

Pinside member

6y 28,400 75 3

I am also considering outsourcing clear coating for similar reasons. I won't be making a job of this, and my health is important to me. So I am looking to follow this advice:

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I'd really just take it to a backyard auto body joint.
Go to your local Autozone and look on the bulletin board.
Find auto painters that work out of their garage.
Call and find someone "open" to the idea. A reluctant painter will be a sucky painter.
Remind them you want it shot flat on it's back (easy).
Work on his schedule for the lowest price. If he "cleans out his gun" at the end of an auto job, he might charge you $20.
Be sure to remind him you will be back for additional coats and additional playfields.

Reading this thread it does seem there are clear coating activities I can't really outsource. These seem to be the clear coat needs for my project:

1. Lock down any loose fibers and paint (outsource)

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Usually I remove Mylar, Magic Eraser, and scrape paint off worn inserts .
Then I put down a light coat of clear.

2. Fill/level inserts (in house) - I have edge wear from raised inserts, I want to level and prevent future wear and touch up or decal worn lettering. I think 2PAC and a glass eyedropper has been recommended several times.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
The edge wear is fixed by leveling the inserts (if they are popped) and then filling the chipped area with 2 part clear.

3. Final coats (outsource)

If outsourcing #1 and #3, I am hoping I only need a small amount of 2PAC and new filters for my respirator.

Any issues with this approach? If not, does anyone have a good recommendation (cost effective) on a 2PAC brand/product and where to purchase it for only step #2? Vid previously recommended getting a quart over a rattle can for small work, but $85 for a quart of MC161 seems expensive for this job.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
You might just get a quart of 2PAC from the local auto store.
The whole can of 2K will be hard in a few days, for the few drops you are going to use.
The 2PAC will be good for years as long as you don't get any activator into the clear can.

Maybe someone nearby has one of these opened "good for years" quarts in storage

0

1

#4757 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from tdiddy:
1st issue, it seems at some point she got infested with termites. How could I go about fixing this damage

Clamp the playfield to something dead flat (tablesaw maybe?), put wax paper under it to make sure you don't glue the playfield to the table, put a dam along the edge, and fill the holes with Fiberglass Resin. FR is a structural repair, since we need the edge to be strong on a playfield.

How to do dam:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cabinet-restoration-vids-guide#post-2546343

If termites are still alive, freeze in a chest freezer for a month before you begin.

Quoted from tdiddy:
2nd major issue, the wood around the arrow inserts has shrunk

Fill gap with Bondo, FR, or epoxy. Don't overfill the gap, because the playfield is too fragile to sand at this point. You will do the final leveling with 2PAC when you clearcoat.

Quoted from tdiddy:
3rd, the crazing on the playfield is the worst I've seen, the lower part it's really bad, I'm concerned that if I scuff it I'm going to lose a ton of paint or if I try to remove the Mylar around the pops I'll pull a bunch too.

You won't be able to scuff that playfield.

GENTLY clean with Naphtha.

Scan the entire playfield.

Mylar is going to be a bitch. I'd probably buy a pack of plastic razor blades (auto store), using a heat lamp, heat the playfield from the rear for a few hours before starting.

Use aluminum flashing or 2 layers of loose aluminum foil to make sure you are only heating the pop pit area.

Keep an eye on the temp of the front of the playfield, you don't want it to exceed 110*F

Start in the rear of the playfield, away from the player's side. Start away from the graphics. Try to get 1mm of insertion from the plastic razor blades. Leave them in place and try to get another 1mm tomorrow. Keep it warm, do not turn the heat lamp off. Keep an eye on the temp.

If you are having success, start the razor blades all around the edges and over a few days work your way towards the center. You may find that you check on it and 5mm or more of the adhesive has let go under the heat and razor tension. Move the blades up into this gap, but don't get cocky.

Take that playfield to the paint store, have their computer match the colors of green and buy quarts of the BEST eggshell paint they sell. Doing small sections at a time, dab the paint into the cracks, allow to partially set, then wipe the excess off against the grain of the crack. Do the black too the same way using Createx.

Sand or paint your shooter lane.

Touch up the black Keylines around the inserts.

Spray a lockdown layer of 2PAC, and begin your normal restoration

0

#4759 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Vid, I just managed to fill in my inserts with 2PAC. Some got overfilled in the process...I hope that isn't a big issue, but on the large "hot dog" inserts, it was necessary to fill in the gaps between the play field and the inserts.

IMG_3855 (resized).JPGIMG_3859 (resized).JPG

Second, I was wondering something else while doing the filling. In theory, once the whole thing is sanded flat and wiped with Naptha, couldn't one just fill up the entire play field with eyedropper 2PAC? Or would this cause far too thick of a layer for what we are shooting for?

0

#4762 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from La_Porta:
I just managed to fill in my inserts with 2PAC. Some got overfilled in the process...I hope that isn't a big issue, but on the large "hot dog" inserts, it was necessary to fill in the gaps between the play field and the inserts.

It's totally OK to overfill.

It will all get sanded dead flat once you clearcoat the entire playfield.

Quoted from La_Porta:
Second, I was wondering something else while doing the filling. In theory, once the whole thing is sanded flat and wiped with Naptha, couldn't one just fill up the entire play field with eyedropper 2PAC? Or would this cause far too thick of a layer for what we are shooting for?

It would waste a ton of 2PAC and take a ton of time.

One guy sent me pics of where he clearcoated with 2PAC applied with a brush! He finally got it sanded flat, but he wasted a quart of clear, and a week's time.

0

#4820 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Quick question, Vid. My 3x insert somewhat sagged from heat and developed lines in the plastic itself. I figured that would go away when I filled with 2PAC, but they seem to only have been accentuated. I tried getting into them while deglossing with the steel wool, but it looks like they are really far under there. What to do about this? Any way to stop this in the future?

0BAFFDD0-A9E8-4A71-8600-842354A9491D (resized).jpeg

0

#4821 6 years ago

JOE

alexmogil

Pinside+ Frequent

Parkersburg, WV

7y 79,550 1,026 17 29

I'm getting close to the point where I have to shoot my first layer of clear - but I'm not sure how many passes to do for the first coat.

My plan is to shoot three times:

First coat for locking in the current paint and give me a surface to airbrush
Second coat to cover the airbrush job and give me a surface for decals
Third coat as final top coat.

So for each coat am I doing multiple passes? And do I sand *between* those passes? Is it like this:

1st Coat: one quick pass, wait some time (hour or whatever according to 2pac spec sheet) for hardening, sand, fill depressions with eyedropper and knock down any pooled or raised areas, clean then pass again, sand

Repair paint on playfield

2nd coat: one pass, wait for sandable hardening, sand for tooth, pass again, sand

Decals and any paint touch ups missed

3rd coat, pass, wait for sandable hardening, sand for tooth, pass, sand, polish.

Is there a post that goes through the specific gameplan for passes?

0

#4828 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Firepower. The only resto I will ever do! Lots of work involved...fun, but I have little kids. Difficult to find time for using 2PAC and such!

0

#4834 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from kilmarnock1350:
Vid I was referencing the large blue arrow insert that is lifted in all corners.
Thanks!

Oh,that....yeah remove it and glue it in flush.

Then fill it with 2Pac to reinforce and level.

0

1

#4852 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Soapman:
Can you put to many coats of clear on a play field?

Yes, you can.

It won't get flatter by putting more on, each layer will make it crazier.

See the roller coaster you have with all that clear?

The next layer will be even worse.

1. Get some 200grit and knock that playfield back until it's dead flat. You can't hand sand, you are going to need a powered sander. Keep sanding through 400-600- 800grit.

2. See all those valleys around the inserts? Every layer is building them higher and higher.

3. Once you get the playfield back to flat, fill those valleys with 2pac from a glass eye dropper. Then sand the repairs flat.

4. Now you should have a completely flat playfield sanded to 800 grit.

5. Put one thin layer over this, sand that layer flat, and buff to mirror shine.

Read this on why you MUST sand between every layer:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/20#post-1795975

7df2d02aa192fedcb1cfc2a878c54d633d181aac (resized).jpg

0

#4875 6 years ago

WOT

Atari_Daze

Spd

Houston, TX

7y 141K 10,053 7

Vid, question from my SBM restore:

OP
Quoted from Atari_Daze:
Finally was able to finish masking off the PF in order to paint the black layer. HOWEVER, when I went to remove the Oramask stencils and reveal my paint job, in multiple places, the Oramask removed clearcoat. I had applied the Oramask pieces over a period of weeks and wonder if that has something to do with it removing clear in places. The "lockdown" coat of clear had multiple weeks to cure before I ever put the first piece of mask on so I'm not really sure what happened. I did not get pics of this but would guess someone has experienced this?

I've taken the steps to repair this damage, is there a suggested amount of time to let the new lockdown layer of 2PAC cure before applying more masking in order to airbrush new paint layers to prevent future issues as mentioned in my post above?

0

#4918 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Langless28:
Assuming this is the classic sign of embedded silicone? 1979 to now it must have seen some silicone products in its day? M.E./alcohol, 800 grit and two naphtha wipes andcit still happened. Rest of playfield turned out ok for first time ever using clear and hvlp gun.

Before that gets too dry, use a glass eyedropper and fill those craters with 2pac.

Then it will all sand out level, and you will be OK.

0

#4947 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from Langless28:
Is there a minimum grit size you recommend between clear coats so that the grit scratches do not show through to each layer?

220 will fill in just fine with 2PAC, but so will 400.

Quoted from Langless28:
I am also wondering if I should level all the depressions next (after de-glossing them all of course!), then sand flat again, or start touch ups. Then when i am ready to seal in the airbrush work, spray my coat and then fill the low spots?

I probably would have tried to fill those depressions before the 1st coat and saved a step.

Level them now, and then you will have a nice level surface to paint on your next coat.

0

#4953 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Hi All,

Here's a question that I haven't seen the answer to in the thread. How do you clean your HPLV gun after spraying 2PAC?

-TIA
-W

0

#4956 6 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Lutz, FL

8y 61,300 1,306 4 7

Vid do I buy 2pac with a fast or slow hardener?

0

#4960 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Here is another, more urgent question: apparently, a few bubbles I thought I got rid of created pin-sized holes in my new clear coat. I payed it down about 3 hours ago: can I use a toothpick or something with 2PAC to fill them in and have it melt right in?

49CE23E3-3690-488F-8246-B0B3E84FECDD (resized).jpeg

0

#4967 6 years ago

CCA

phototamer

Pinside member

Limassol

6y 49,800 557 3

First of all A big thanks to Vid and all others helping less experienced pinball owners like myself to restore their machines (| I have gone through this thread more than infinite times !!!) !
I bought a Fast Draw a couple of months ago , and after sorting out its mechanical problems I feel competent enough to attempt a full playfield restore. It will need a loooooot of work , as you can see , but I have the dedication to do it , regardless of time needed.
I was going to clean with Naphtha , ME + alcohol , epoxy glue the inserts , Key-lines , eye drop 2PAC into cupped inserts and deep playfield recessions/bare wood , light 2PAC , sand , decals , and final clear. After seeing the color under the posts removed though , I decided that I must airbrush most of the playfield , since trying to remove gray stuff with ME+alcohol is mostly removing paint !
I need some help with that deep line/crack on the top of the playfield. I will sand and shellac before clearing but how should I deal with that crack , especially cosmetically ?
Also the draining ball hole needs to be patched up .. should I use a ring as a mold and fill with a kind of wood epoxy ?
I am sure this is going to keep me busy me for many many nights

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0

#4969 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from phototamer:
I need some help with that deep line/crack on the top of the playfield. I will sand and shellac before clearing but how should I deal with that crack , especially cosmetically ?

Use dental pick and clean out wax/crud.

Fill crack with 2pac when you fill the inserts.

When you are painting the shooter lane, touch up the crack with 0000 brush.

0

#5003 6 years ago

FUN

pinheadpierre

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 94,800 2,559 16 1

Quoted from DropTarget:
The value of the machine doesn't justify the cost of a professional restore.

Why not find an inexpensive project machine (or two) to cut your teeth on and then tackle this one? Having now done two restorations I can attest that you will make MANY mistakes. Starting off by using Varathane would mistake number one in a series of unfortunate events. If you don't want to obtain a different machine to practice on at least paint yourself some scrap plywood and learn how to shoot 2pac on it so you can at least start off on the right foot. Don't try to modify the steps in this guide while attempting to restore something that you care about. You will be happier and have better results practicing on other stuff before messing with a keeper.

0

#5005 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Quoted from pinheadpierre:
Why not find an inexpensive project machine (or two) to cut your teeth on and then tackle this one? Having now done two restorations I can attest that you will make MANY mistakes. Starting off by using Varathane would mistake number one in a series of unfortunate events. If you don't want to obtain a different machine to practice on at least paint yourself some scrap plywood and learn how to shoot 2pac on it so you can at least start off on the right foot. Don't try to modify the steps in this guide while attempting to restore something that you care about. You will be happier and have better results practicing on other stuff before messing with a keeper.

Thanks for the advice and concern,

I've got the play field stripped (at least the top), and have spoken with local auto body shop. I think they'll be willing to shoot the clear for me. They just need to see the PF 1st, in order to assess my prep work. If they can't shoot it, I'll practice on some scrap wood as suggested.

I'm guessing that I should start by cleaning the PF and redoing the key lines, then have them shoot a dry coat. Do you think I should drip some 2pac on the inserts before bringing the PF to them?

Post last edited 6 years ago: “spelling”

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#5017 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Vid, looked over your sanding and buffing tutorial. How long does 2PAC need to cure to do this? It’s been 4 days since the last coat.

0

#5018 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from DropTarget:
The only thing he thinks could be an issue is that sometimes the clear reacts badly with the original lacquer paints.

It should be fine.

Usually the only reaction is with aftermarket paints, not so much the original with 2PAC.

Quoted from DropTarget:
He also mentioned that they bake the clear on, I don't think that would be a wise thing to do with a wooden PF. I think it would probably be better to just wait for the clear to cure overnight. Your opinion?

Depends on how warm he makes it.

If it's an IR lamp, those cure the 2pac in a hurry.

0

#5036 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from La_Porta:
Well, I did the wet sanding, polishing, and waxing last night. I certainly brought down the high spots and made everything uniform. However, I never really seemed to get rid of all the sanding tracks for some reason. I didn’t skip any grits. Maybe I didn’t buff long enough? If it’s stuck like this, I’m fine with it: I think ittl look good when installed. From what ou said, Vid, eventual ball swirl is inevitable, right? Isn’t this basically what that will look like?

Looks like the clear is not fully hard yet.

2pac should look like glass.

0

#5046 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Dunno, but if heat works, I'd use heat! I didn't mean to open a can of worms here. Perhaps he wasn't speaking for the entire product line.

Back to the restoration.......

I've repainted all of the key lines around my inserts, the next step is to fill in the cupped inserts. There are 15 inserts that I painted on (the ones with the arrows), does that paint need to be roughed up a bit in order for the 2pac to adhere, or should it have enough tooth as is?

0

#5065 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Vid1900,

Have you had experience in using two different brands of 2pac on the same machine?

0

1

#5067 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Filled inserts today,

screwed up a little bit, but nothing that can't be fixed after the 2pac cures.

It smells like an auto body shop in here. I like it! Hey, why am I so dizzy?

0

#5075 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Great info. Thank you.

My insert fills have hardened. This is the first time I've used 2pac. I'm really impressed so far as the last time I tried to fill inserts, I used all sorts of other products, none of which worked. I got so frustrated that I traded the machine and took a hit just to get it out of my sight.

Of course had I used 2pac, it probably still would not have worked out since we did not have Vid1900's insights back then.

So, once again. Thank you.

0

#5076 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Ok, so here's how I screwed up my inserts, sort of.

1) I overfilled them, and some 2pac ran onto adjacent areas of the playfield 2) then while correcting minor imperfections, I dripped more clear on to the already partially cured inserts. those drops did not level out, but pretty much stayed as droplets.

My question is, what's the better way to proceed before adding artwork. Should I sand down the raised spots now and risk sanding off some paint, then add the lock down coat or is it better to spray the lock down layer, then sand the raised areas before adding the art?

TIA

-W

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#5077 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from DropTarget:
Vid1900,
Have you had experience in using two different brands of 2pac on the same machine?

I have repaired other's work, so probably many times.

I have also used real Diamondplate to give that milky Williams look, and that worked fine with the underlying PPG 2Pac.

0

#5082 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
None of that is any worry, believe it or not.
If you are needing to paint or decal the filled inserts, tape off the surrounding area with Blue Painters Tape, and sand the clear with 220, then 400, then 800. Don't scratch the surrounding playfield, if you tear the tape, put a new piece over the tear.
If you don't need to do any paint work on the inserts, then just leave them alone and continue your paint work.
Shoot your next layer of clear, and flatten your inserts at the same time you flatten the clear layer.

Thanks, I don't need to touch up the inserts. I figured this would be the game plan (no pun intended). So spray the lockdown layer, live with the raised areas, paint new art, then another layer and level?

BTW, I'm really loving how the inserts are looking under the 2pac. SHINEY, SMOOOOOOTH and the flat black Createx key lines came out wonderful.

but Dayum this is a time consuming project. I'm doing my best to not rush the process, it's a tall order though. patience patience, patience........

Post last edited 6 years ago: “spelling”

0

1

#5083 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Quoted from DropTarget:
Thanks, I don't need to touch up the inserts. I figured this would be the game plan (no pun intended). So spray the lockdown layer, live with the raised areas, paint new art, then another layer and level?
BTW, I'm really loving how the inserts are looking under the 2pac. SHINEY, SMOOOOOOTH and the flat black Createx key lines came out wonderful.
but Dayum this is a time consuming project. I'm doing my best to not rush the process, it's a tall order though. patience patience, patience........

Vid is right about that. I was worried, too, but I overfilled, dripped some, etc....Once you spray 2PAC over it, you flatten it all out sanding and you can't tell any different. You will be just fine.

0

#5092 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Quoted from Indusguys:
I am considering having my Auto shop do mine as well, but none of them have experience with a play field. Is this something I can trust an auto body shop with, or should I purchase the equipment and materials to do myself? What are they charging you?

It's your call. My shop was a bit afraid to touch the playfield. The concern was spraying 2pac on the PF's original paint and he didn't know if the costing would wear over time due to the ball. He's doing it with the understanding that I won't hold them responsible if anything goes bad.

I wanted to do mine myself, but even though I have most of the equipment, and I have a fair amount of experience with a HVLP gun, I've never sprayed auto clear coat, and I hear there is a learning curve. I didn't want to experiment with spraying it at the moment. Plus I'd have to set up a paint booth outside and it's starting to get to be too cold where I live, and really didn't want to be spraying lacquer thinner around to clean up and the costs of buying the 2pac, a respirator, protective clothing and eyewear, having the shop do it will probably be cost effective(ish). I don't know what the final charge will be, He said their labor rate is 50.00 / hour + materials, but they may charge me less, since they'll be doing the playfield as an extra when they're spraying a car. So far they've given me a bunch of 2pac to take home and fill the inserts. I'm guessing it won't be much more than 100.00 - 150.00. I've used this shop for my cars before, so I have a bit of a relationship with them. They do a great job on the cars, keeping fingers crossed though.

There is the issue, that you'll have to make several trips to the shop in order to complete the project.

They have some incentive to do this well and treat me right. The owner lit up when he heard that I wanted to do a pinball machine. He mentioned that he wanted a Stern Avengers, but they are too expensive. I've since found him several that are way under the prices he was finding. One is NIB.

0

#5098 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Quoted from xsvtoys:
How hard could it be to shoot a quick layer over the perfectly flat small playfield? They should be able to do it literally in about 5 minutes.

Exactly.

Quoted from xsvtoys:
I think it’s just because it’s something they have never dealt with and they don’t want to deal with it.

Those were precisely his concerns, but I think he was still intrigued. Once I assured him that I understand the risks, he was fine with it.

Quoted from xsvtoys:
I read in this thread horror stores about what can happen when a playfield has been previously treated with silicon, causing contamination everywhere that could cause unwanted fisheyes in all future projects.

When I dropped the PF off today, I was wearing gloves, as I had just Naphtha'd it. He made sure to let me do the handling. He did say that he would clean it again with the product that they use on the cars, just in case there was ever silicone used on the PF. He was going to do a test spot first in order to see if their product would have a negative reaction, I'm not sure what they use, I'll try to find out and report to the group.

Quoted from xsvtoys:
After I talked to him about it for a bit, he finally said he would do it. But it would be $250. Well, that’s not practical, it takes at least 3 coats as described in this thread. Hard to justify $750 just for clearcoating a playfield. I need to find someone who will do coats for $50 or maybe $75 a shot.

That's nuts! My guy is just putting the PF in the paint booth when he shoots a car at the same time. Using 2pac that's already mixed up and not adding much time for his painter. It's really no skin off their teeth, Actually I'm surprised that he agreed considering their work load.

It's a rather large shop, with an incredible paint booth that they just built about two years ago. Not a speck of dust can get onto the surface in there. They could also heat cure the 2pac in a 30,000 BTU oven. It brings the temp to 120°. I was concerned about the wood drying out, or the inserts expanding at a different rate than the wood, so he's going to let it air cure overnight tonight.

I'm sure there are other shops in your area. Try contacting them. I'll let the group know what my final costs come out to be.

0

#5194 6 years ago

ACE

pinzrfun

Pinside+ Frequent

Belleville, MI

11y 90,300 4,310 20

Ok, so thanks to this thread I bought a couple cans of 2Pac, an airbrush, some Createx paints, frisket, circle template, etc, and I'm going to take a shot at touching up my Stingray. The center "ADVANCE" graphic is half gone and though I don't have a scanner, I think i can find close enough text online to make a water slide decal.
My question is, how would you guys do this? I'll lay down a coat of clear before I start, but if I were to repaint the white in rhe middle and lay down an ADVANCE decal, the white will stand out like a sore thumb compared to the other 40 year old paint. And repainting those white scores seems daunting.
And if I wanted to re-spray the red area, it would seem like a huge amount of work to lay down frisket and cut around all of those score graphics (not to mention it would look like hell, I'm guessing).
But is that how the pro's would do it? Just lay down red over everything and make water slide decals for the text and numbers? Should I make circle decals for the keylines or put down frisket and actually cut circles and spray? I don't have a laser printer so I'll have to get decals printed at Kinkos or a hobby shop.
I expect to learn a LOT in the next week or three and will document everything, for better or worse.

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0

#5214 6 years ago

GUS

Plumonium

Pinside member

Montreal, QC

9y 60,550 1,496 5 7

Anyone here 2pac clearcoated modern Stern games?

0

#5224 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Quoted from packie1:
See if the Auto Body place will give you some clear. Then rough up the area of the low spot and fill with clear. Fill a little over the other area, so you will sand down to the rest of the playfield. Use more clear to fill other holes or low spots as well. Vid has a section on this. Looks good. You did good, young Skywalker.
Mike

Thanks, that was my game plan, I was looking for confirmation. I'm thinking that since I'll have limited time to go to the body shop, pick up some premixed 2pac, drive home and fill the low spots before it bricks, that I'll block sand the PF as it is to show the low spots, then go get the 2pac and fill.

The shop recommended wet sanding. Oh, and now I'm helping the guy at the shop buy his 1st pinball machine!

The force has been with me so far.

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#5237 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Quoted from DropTarget:
I'm going to have to have the auto body shop do that.

I was curious...why is it you aren't going the 2PAC route on your own again? I didn't do the whole compressor/HVLP gun route myself because it was too much. I used the SprayMax 2K paint which was much more doable. It took me probably two months to convince myself that I could do it and actually go for it...but it worked in the end.

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#5254 6 years ago

FUN

pinheadpierre

Pinside+ Frequent

10y 94,800 2,559 16 1

Quoted from CaptainNeo:
i've populated and played in 72 hours after buffing. My alien poker still looks and plays like new. I waited maybe 50-72 hours before the first ball hit the field to play.
keep in mind, I only use commercial grade automotive clearcoat that hardens in 3 hours. If you are using the air dry stuff, it's going to take a lot longer.

Another game changer for me! Thanks. (Yes, I am using professional automotive 2pac that says it is ready for buffing within hours of application.)

0

#5267 6 years ago

JRL

La_Porta

Pinside member

9y 51,650 781 1

Quoted from pinzrfun:
Spraymax high gloss, 2 pack 33.00 and free shipping on amazon. Got mine yesterday, it's the real deal. CTI Industrial is the seller if you don't want to go thru Amazon, still free shipping according to the advertisement came with the spray.
amazon.com link »

This is what I used. Good stuff...easy to use, spray lays down smooth. Used with another brand of 2PAC I used to fill inserts, no reactions. If you buy a 4 or 6 pack, it’s more expensive obviously, but saves with bulk prices.

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#5270 6 years ago

SMM

dr_nybble

Pinside+ Frequent

Ottawa, ON

10y 114K 3,544 15

Quoted from pinzrfun:
Spraymax high gloss, 2 pack 33.00 and free shipping on amazon. Got mine yesterday, it's the real deal. CTI Industrial is the seller if you don't want to go thru Amazon, still free shipping according to the advertisement came with the spray.
amazon.com link »

I've read quite a bit about using half mask respirator with 2PAC. The conclusion I read about why it is not recommended is because the mask can stop being effective at levels you cannot detect. So the lesson for those of us who cannot buy a supplied air respirator is use a NEW respirator only and pitch it when done:

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/777847O/isocyanates-3m-techupdate.pdf

I had success with SprayMax2K. I sprayed quite close (4-5") as per the directions on the SprayMax website (which seems to contradict the can), you can lay down a whole can in one session.

I used the Porter-Cable DA buffer and got good results, surprised at how much buffing I had to do though to get 3000 grit wet sanding scratches out.

0

#5274 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from dr_nybble:
I've read quite a bit about using half mask respirator with 2PAC. The conclusion I read about why it is not recommended is because the mask can stop being effective at levels you cannot detect. So the lesson for those of us who cannot buy a supplied air respirator is use a NEW respirator only and pitch it when done:

You can certainly replace the cartridges ever time you use them, or write the hours on a zip-lock freezer bag you keep the mask in.

3M told me 40 hours is all the carts are going to last while spraying iso.

The 2pac manufactures add the smell to the clear so you can't miss it. If you ever smell that chlorine/puke smell while wearing your mask - STOP. Check for leaks or replace your carts.

If you have a spare set of carts already in the shop, you will not try to sneak a few extra hours in.....

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#5348 6 years ago

JSA

jsa

Pinside+ Addict

Manchester, MI

8y 77,050 2,017 5

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Yep, it's great to find those populated playfields still in the Bally Crate!
That thing looks amazing.

Thanks, I’m proud of it. The cabinet is going to be my first painted restoration (meaning stencils, not decals) as it needs it. I’m an amateur with paint but it looks like a good first project.

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
I would not even play it, if it were mine.
It's too nice to tear up.
I'd clear it and then you will have one of the nicest FS in the world.

That’s what I’m thinking... but I feel compelled to have it professionally cleared/restored because I’ve never shot 2PAC in my life. I’m going to do it for the cab, but that’s more forgiving. Should I just man up and do it myself?

0

4

#5350 6 years ago

???

DropTarget

Pinside member

11y 64,050 2,283 23

Hi all,

As per Vid's recommendations for polishing an em pf, I just buffed and polished my Mini Pool.

Afterwards, all I could do was stand and stare at it. I think I mumbled some exclamations which shall not be repeated here! I can even almost overlook the mistakes that I made during the process so far, although one of them is really bugging me. It does look great though. Thank you for all of the help and encouragement.

I do have a few questions, the first has been answered in the topic, but I've seen conflicting thoughts. When do you suggest waxing? Obviously I want to wax before populating the pf. I've seen some people that say wax after polishing, and others that say wait a few weeks for outgassing. The shop that shot the clear says tells their customers that it's safe to wax almost right away as they use an oven to cure the 2pac.

Another question is, and I'm sure this has been answered to, and I'm sure that I bookmarked the page, but my computer crashed and I lost a bunch of info, how to reinstall metal ball guides.

Yet one more question......Vid, when do you have time for anything else? You have so many topics on Pinside, and are responsive to all of them. I'm sure I speak for the community when I say thank you.

-W

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#5401 6 years ago

CCA

phototamer

Pinside member

Limassol

6y 49,800 557 3

I am about to airbrush a large amount of area on my Fast Draw playfield with createx sky-blue opaque after I apply the first coat of 2pac. There are small areas with bare wood , that have been covered with 2pac and sanded smooth . Since sky-blue seems to be not covering so effectively like red or blue , I am considering putting a light coat of white on all the area to be painted , before airbrushing the sky-blue. Is that a common technique , and also is white a good choice , or a light coat of grey is more suitable for colors that do not cover so effectively.

0

#5423 6 years ago

CCA

phototamer

Pinside member

Limassol

6y 49,800 557 3

I shot my first coat of 2pac ( one light coat and a second full coat , 15 minutes apart ) and I am getting ready to paint/airbrush most of this Fast Draw playfield. I am a newbie so I was a bit reluctant with the spray gun and I guess my attempt in clear coating resulted in a not so heavy coat and orange peel.
After 24 hours and wet sanding with 400 grit , the playfield looks nice , but the small pits that were all over the place are still there. Maybe a little less prominent though. I will not get a good weather to attempt another coat , so would it be ok if I would go ahead and do my touch ups hoping that the second 2pac coating attempt will cover them ? or must I wait another 2 months for better weather to lay another coat and try to fill those pits ?

Thanks in advance everyone that helps people like me with no experience in playfield restoration and especially Vid that opened my eyes on that subject

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#5424 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from phototamer:
, the playfield looks nice , but the small pits that were all over the place are still there. Maybe a little less prominent though. I will not get a good weather to attempt another coat , so would it be ok if I would go ahead and do my touch ups hoping that the second 2pac coating attempt will cover them ? or must I wait another 2 months for better weather to lay another coat and try to fill those pits ?

You can drip some 2pac into the pits, or just go ahead and paint.

The next coat of clear will fix it.

0

#5425 6 years ago

CCA

phototamer

Pinside member

Limassol

6y 49,800 557 3

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
You can drip some 2pac into the pits, or just go ahead and paint.
The next coat of clear will fix it.

I will go with the middle road then . Fill the major pits with a 2pac soaked toothpick , sand , and paint.

Thanks Vid !

0

#5440 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from flynnibus:
vid1900 anything that works to counter/undo the two part epoxy?
I glued an existing insert that ended up lower than I would like.. (guess the clamp was too tight and deformed my block) but now with the fresh epoxy, of course it's set. I don't want to risk popping the insert fully as it has a lot of art along the insert edges and it's a diamondcoat field that would need scoring to keep from taking too much.
Anything that works to release two part epoxy?

MEK eats epoxy, but I worry it will cloud the acrylic lens too.

I'd just fill the insert with 2PAC and level her off.

0

#5441 6 years ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside member

Sana'a

12y 169K 40,258 18

Quoted from shirkle:
What do you fill scoop wear with? Mine's not too bad, but still noticeable. I don't plan to paint or clearcoat because the rest of the playfield is perfect....just want to fill the wear and cover with Cliffy protectors.

Most people use Bondo, but if you are not painting, you can just fill the wear with 2PAC.

By vid1900

11 years ago

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