(Topic ID: 33446)

Vid's Guide to Ultimate Playfield Restoration


By vid1900

7 years ago



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#1551 5 years ago
Quoted from MinnPin:

Lee, you seem very tuned in the technical aspect of the product, but I would tend not to argue with the man who has been using said product for this very specific use for some time now and with a great deal of success.

When it comes down to it, in this forum, it only matters how the 2pac works for clearing a playfield -- with glue variances, material variances, paint variances and decals.

I am not arguing, I am trying to be helpful. I have worked using automotive paint for a living for the last 20 years and have attended numerous workshops at paint manufacturers technical training facilities. Something that most people that paint probably never get a chance to do. I also clearcoated my 1st PF around 16 years ago.

Just trying to be helpful.

#1552 5 years ago
Quoted from Aladdin:

I just read your post Vid on UV Cure.
Here's a good video to watch on how they UV Cure a Guitar.
» YouTube video

Great video!

Some of the cab shops I service have UV clearing lines and the results are amazing.

I have always wanted to take a restored playfield in and have them UV it.

#1553 5 years ago
Quoted from mrgregb123:

Vid - two questions on touchups:
1) For tidying up the upper part of the inside of a cabinet that has some scuff marks (the part that is visible during gameplay - it's black on my machine), do you recommend airbrushing black with the Createx or is there a better approach?

That black is probably semi-gloss, so the Createx is probably too dull to match ; and Createx is not a very "tough" finish, it usually needs a topcoat.

Also, once you make the sides "nice", you will want to put some adhesive felt strips on the edges of the playfield, as any scratches will stand out like a sore thumb.

#1554 5 years ago
Quoted from mrgregb123:

2) For inserts with small amounts of scratched white paint (eg. Dr. Dude's Dude-o-Meter), is it OK to just touch it up with white Createx between clearcoats rather than having to get a decal made (since I can't print white)?

Sure, that's OK.

Light it up from behind with a flashlight and make sure you match up the opaque-ness of it.

#1555 5 years ago

Thanks! Maybe it is semi-gloss but it does look pretty dull. Here's a pic. What type of paint do you recommend?

A couple more questions I didn't see answered elsewhere - hopefully these help others too...

1) What do you recommend using to stuff/block the light sockets during clearcoating? I saw you said to leave old ones in for touch-ups but wasn't sure if you recommended the same for clearcoating.

2) Do you still recommend sanding System 11c machines before clearcoating? On the lower half of the playfield much of the original clear coat wore away during mylar glue removal - I had to get pretty harsh. Upper is still intact. I don't mind the labor of sanding but don't want to wear away the paint either.

20141121_172644.jpg
#1556 5 years ago
Quoted from mrgregb123:

Maybe it is semi-gloss but it does look pretty dull. Here's a pic. What type of paint do you recommend?

I just steal whatever semi-gloss black they have at work. It does not have to be anything fancy, I think I have Rust-Olium in a 5 gallon can right now.

You are going to have to sand before you paint, or those scratches are going to really draw attention to themselves with fresh paint.

#1557 5 years ago
Quoted from mrgregb123:

1) What do you recommend using to stuff/block the light sockets during clearcoating? I saw you said to leave old ones in for touch-ups but wasn't sure if you recommended the same for clearcoating.

I just use old #44 /555 bulbs.

They are cheap (free), and they don't fly out from the air pressure like foam plugs do.

#1558 5 years ago
Quoted from mrgregb123:

Do you still recommend sanding System 11c machines before clearcoating? On the lower half of the playfield much of the original clear coat wore away during mylar glue removal - I had to get pretty harsh. Upper is still intact. I don't mind the labor of sanding but don't want to wear away the paint either.

If the paint is too fragile to sand, then all you can do is spray a thin coat of clear to protect and lock it down.

Don't sand any paint away.

Don't think of it as "sanding" as much as "de-glossing"

#1559 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

That old HP is still the best, you can find them on eBay and Craigslist - they made a zillion of those things.

Ok, you convinced me. I was able to pick one up NIB for $50 shipped off of Ebay. It even works with Windows 8.1.

#1560 5 years ago
Quoted from WonkoTSane:

Ok, you convinced me. I was able to pick one up NIB for $50 shipped off of Ebay. It even works with Windows 8.1.

You won't be sorry.

#1561 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

You won't be sorry.

It just removes one more excuse that I have been using to procrastinate

#1562 5 years ago

Danger with 2PAC.
I know 2PAC is very bad for you and I am using all the protection when spraying. But is it the fumes when spraying? The product? Or? The reason I am asking are if I should be just as careful when sanding and handling the playfield after spraying it? Or if the sanding material is not full of danger?

#1563 5 years ago
Quoted from tezting:

But is it the fumes when spraying?

The fumes are very bad.

Quoted from tezting:

Or if the sanding material is not full of danger?

The sanding dust of anything is bad for your lungs.

I suggest you wear your respirator when sanding playfields, cabinets (lead paint), plywood (formaldehyde).

Don't get your shop all full of dust either. Sand outside whenever possible.

#1564 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The fumes are very bad.

The sanding dust of anything is bad for your lungs.
I suggest you wear your respirator when sanding playfields, cabinets (lead paint), plywood (formaldehyde).
Don't get your shop all full of dust either. Sand outside whenever possible.

Thank you.
So the dust and fumes are bad for your lungs. But it is OK to get the dust on my skin? (I was it off afterwords)

#1565 5 years ago

Try to keep the dust off your skin while sanding.

Some people even develop a reaction to wood dust after repeated exposure, so might as well be careful.

#1566 5 years ago
Quoted from LEE:

I am not arguing, I am trying to be helpful. I have worked using automotive paint for a living for the last 20 years and have attended numerous workshops at paint manufacturers technical training facilities. Something that most people that paint probably never get a chance to do. I also clearcoated my 1st PF around 16 years ago.
Just trying to be helpful.

Awesome. And noted. I wasn't slamming you, I was simply saying the amount of useful, detailed and highly functional advice Vid has given out regarding pinball repair, and directly in regard to how 2pac works (for this purpose), I just don't feel like there is much to argue about.

That being said -- everyone on here is helping and/or getting help, so in the end all comments are appreciated.

#1567 5 years ago
Quoted from Lowrent:

Thank you Drano, Molotow is by far the best.

Just so you know, litho film is the most opaque you can get. At noon when the sun is the shiniest, you can barely see it through this film.
Here are the values I get in Photoshop (relative to my scanner, just to give an idea).
Litho : 100%
Sharpie : 71%-87% blueish
Molotov : 91% uniform black
Liquitex : 69%-91% black
Waterslide : 89%

blacks.jpg 132 KB

Following up on the marker from many pages ago...

I am restoring my T2 playfield following this very useful guide. Most of the touchups needed are limited to fixing the black around inserts. I have been using a liquitex acrylic marker as I couldn't easily source the Molotow. That made doing the fixes really easy.

I am now at the point where I need to thoroughly clean the playfield before doing the clearcoat but the Naphtha seems to be eating the black from the marker (painted a week ago). Has anybody had any similar experience? I am wondering if I am going a bit too hard on the Naphtha as I am paranoid about fisheyes. BTW I am using Ronsonol, perhaps this isnt exactly the same as the Naphtha you guys use (I can't get it here). There was a post somewhere stating it was the same thing. 99% Alcohol doesn't seem to affect it as much. Can I use this instead?

My other worry is that if Naphtha is eating the marker, is it going to bleed in the clear coat? I plan on using Spraymax and do 2 very light mist coats first to minimize this risk.

#1568 5 years ago

Was this the HP scanner? What is the model number?

Quoted from WonkoTSane:

Ok, you convinced me. I was able to pick one up NIB for $50 shipped off of Ebay. It even works with Windows 8.1.

#1569 5 years ago

Was it an HP ScanJet 4670 See-Thru Vertical Scanner

#1570 5 years ago
Quoted from GoodManners:

Was it an HP ScanJet 4670 See-Thru Vertical Scanner

It was the HP 4600. From the HP site the only difference between the 4600 and 4670 was the plastic stand that it came with.

#1571 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

There is a little bit of sanding skill and a little bit of fudge factor involved. Take your time, it either will be nice, or a pile of crap.
If you think you got it nice, take some Naphtha on a rag and wipe down your work.
This gives you a preview of what the clear coat will look like.
Sometimes it looks great dry, but looks terrible when Naphtha-ed.
Other times it looks dicey and grey, but comes out perfect when wet.
If the damage is too bad to sand out, don't despair.
Patch any soft wood fibers with wood filler, sand smooth, mask with tape and simply paint in the "layers" of plywood.
I know this sounds flaky, but I've done it 100s of times and 95% of the time the customer never notices - but if I did not paint it, they'd notice for sure.

shoot-4.jpg 41 KB

Hi,
I started working on a spare Power Play playfield... I was working on the shooter lane and wondering - the rest of the wood has a yellowed varnish, while I'm sanding this down to bare wood. Basically when I wipe it down with alcohol (since we can't get naphta here in Canada), this is the look it's gonna have with 2PAC?
It kinda looks right so I figure I might not have to adjust the color, but what if I did? Would I need to use wood stain or paint?

Edit: so here's how to paint it - https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/18#post-1730160
But, my question remains as to whether this needs to be done just to account for the bare wood vs yellowed varnish.

IMG_20141125_214925090.jpg

#1572 5 years ago
Quoted from PinStef:

Following up on the marker from many pages ago...
I am restoring my T2 playfield following this very useful guide. Most of the touchups needed are limited to fixing the black around inserts. I have been using a liquitex acrylic marker as I couldn't easily source the Molotow. That made doing the fixes really easy.
I am now at the point where I need to thoroughly clean the playfield before doing the clearcoat but the Naphtha seems to be eating the black from the marker (painted a week ago). Has anybody had any similar experience? I am wondering if I am going a bit too hard on the Naphtha as I am paranoid about fisheyes. BTW I am using Ronsonol, perhaps this isnt exactly the same as the Naphtha you guys use (I can't get it here). There was a post somewhere stating it was the same thing. 99% Alcohol doesn't seem to affect it as much. Can I use this instead?
My other worry is that if Naphtha is eating the marker, is it going to bleed in the clear coat? I plan on using Spraymax and do 2 very light mist coats first to minimize this risk.

You can order the Molotow markers from Curry's in Toronto.

I found a place in Canada where it seems you can order Naphtha: http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/cspages/ptivmp09-04137-40.php

#1573 5 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

You can order the Molotow markers from Curry's in Toronto.
I found a place in Canada where it seems you can order Naphtha: http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/cspages/ptivmp09-04137-40.php

I found Naphtha at Sherwin Williams (thanks to BJM-Maxx for the tip) and tried it but it still dissolves the Liquitex marker. Based on what I found, I would recommend avoiding this product.

I found some Molotow markers at Bombing Science but they are taking forever to arrive. I will try it and report back on results.

#1574 5 years ago
Quoted from dr_nybble:

You can order the Molotow markers from Curry's in Toronto.
I found a place in Canada where it seems you can order Naphtha: http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/cspages/ptivmp09-04137-40.php

Sherwin Williams has Naptha, they call it VAPM Naptha (Varnish and Paint Makers). I bought a 4Litre jug in Ottawa.

<Oops, beat me to it.>

#1575 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

I started working on a spare Power Play playfield... I was working on the shooter lane and wondering - the rest of the wood has a yellowed varnish, while I'm sanding this down to bare wood. Basically when I wipe it down with alcohol (since we can't get naphta here in Canada), this is the look it's gonna have with 2PAC?
It kinda looks right so I figure I might not have to adjust the color, but what if I did? Would I need to use wood stain or paint?

If we were sanding the flat "face" and then clearing over the freshly exposed wood, it would indeed look too bright and new.

But the shooter lane is technically "end grain" so it is more porous and thus looks darker when cleared.

Get yourself some Naphtha and you will see that 90% of the time it looks good enough.

BUT, if it did look too light, you could tone it with Shellac until it looked dark enough - just like you would do if you were darkening a ball trail in that had been sanded in the face of the playfield.

-

From your picture, you are not yet done sanding.

Imagine right where the ball is ejected into the lane; that is where I can still see a little ground in dirt pattern.

#1576 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If we were sanding the flat "face" and then clearing over the freshly exposed wood, it would indeed look too bright and new.
But the shooter lane is technically "end grain" so it is more porous and thus looks darker when cleared.
Get yourself some Naphtha and you will see that 90% of the time it looks good enough.
BUT, if it did look too light, you could tone it with Shellac until it looked dark enough - just like you would do if you were darkening a ball trail in that had been sanded in the face of the playfield.
-
From your picture, you are not yet done sanding.
Imagine right where the ball is ejected into the lane; that is where I can still see a little ground in dirt pattern.

Shellac!
Thanks
Yes I know I'm not done sanding yet. I'll also get myself some Naptha.

Cheers
Phil

#1577 5 years ago

A decal question.
I have used clear decals for inserts on my last project.
This time I have to replace James Bond on my Goldeneye.
I thought white decals where the way to go. But I am having problems with a white "edge" where I cut the decal.
Can I use clear decal paper? I think I would not have the edge problem and it would also be easier to align correctly.
Also what are the guideline for when to use white and transparent decal paper?

(The decal on the the image is only for test)

Billede 27-11-14 19.48.27.jpg

#1578 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

Shellac!
Thanks
Yes I know I'm not done sanding yet. I'll also get myself some Naptha.
Cheers
Phil

Oh man, I overdid it... I went wide to clean up the eject marks, then I didn't like the bump I had at that spot so I corrected the line to make it straight all the way to the end.
What kinda threw me off too is that for some reason I don't have the regular plank pattern. Not a huge deal because I picked a very rough playfield to practice, but I'm not too happy with my work there...

IMG_20141127_210337515.jpg
IMG_20141127_224450546.jpg

#1579 5 years ago
Quoted from tezting:

Can I use clear decal paper? I think I would not have the edge problem and it would also be easier to align correctly.

Sometimes you use white, sometimes clear.

It just depends on what you are decalling over.

Inserts might need clear, a colorful section with "photo" appearance might only show the correct colors on white.

If white decals let the white edge show, touch up with paint before clear coat.

#1580 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

Oh man, I overdid it... I went wide to clean up the eject marks, then I didn't like the bump I had at that spot so I corrected the line to make it straight all the way to the end.

If you go too wide, then the ball might not center itself every time in front of the shooter tip.

#1581 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If you go too wide, then the ball might not center itself every time in front of the shooter tip.

I think the ball sits pretty well down there, it just looks kinda weird.
I'm wondering if maybe I could shoot the inside of the lane just a tad darker with translucent paint but "draw" it a little straighter and thinner than the actual shape.

Here's how it looks "wet".

Maybe I'm just overthinking this - I'll do the rest of the PF and see if I still care towards the end. Kinda like when I redid my kitchen. Some details nobody notices I was distraught over at first.
Certainly not professional work, but probably ok anyway.

Edit: I don't want to hijack this thread, maybe I'll start my own later, but just wanted to give an update on this.

So i wasnt happy with the shape of the shooter lane. I put some minwax epoxy wood filler then used a broomstick as a guide for the sandpaper. In my case where I had to reshape it, I found it helpful to keep it straight and continuous. Now be very careful when working with that thing ("I was working on my shooter lane and I slipped" )

I think I'll have a hard time matching that funky wood pattern though. I'll probably have to paint it flat or fake the regular plank pattern.
6090134210360147650.jpg
6090134182147951650.jpg
6090134404125349586.jpg

#1582 5 years ago

I think it looks fine.

Those classic Ballys had different plys, so the shooter lane does not look like a modern game.

#1583 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Sometimes you use white, sometimes clear.
It just depends on what you are decalling over.
Inserts might need clear, a colorful section with "photo" appearance might only show the correct colors on white.
If white decals let the white edge show, touch up with paint before clear coat.

Would you suggest to use white for my case?

#1584 5 years ago

It's below freezing temperature over here and I don't have a garage. I'd still like to get started with my first coat of clear to be able to get crackin' with the airbrush.
How long does that stuff stay airborne and toxic? I was thinking of doing it at my office after work friday so it has the time to settle and leave a nice coat all over the furniture for when people come in monday morning...
Kidding aside, I don't want to make anyone sick, does that sound like a somewhat reasonable plan?

If not I'll just wait until christmas vacation to do it over there when no one's gonna come in for over a week.

#1585 5 years ago
Quoted from tezting:

Would you suggest to use white for my case?

Sure, I'd probably do it.

#1586 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

How long does that stuff stay airborne and toxic? I was thinking of doing it at my office after work friday so it has the time to settle and leave a nice coat all over the furniture for when people come in monday morning...
Kidding aside, I don't want to make anyone sick, does that sound like a somewhat reasonable plan?

No, it will escape into the air handler and poison the joint.

It really is too dangerous to mess with.

Quoted from PhilGreg:

If not I'll just wait until christmas vacation to do it over there when no one's gonna come in for over a week.

I'd really just take it to a backyard auto body joint.

Go to your local Autozone and look on the bulletin board.

Find auto painters that work out of their garage.

Call and find someone "open" to the idea. A reluctant painter will be a sucky painter.

Remind them you want it shot flat on it's back (easy).

Work on his schedule for the lowest price. If he "cleans out his gun" at the end of an auto job, he might charge you $20.

Be sure to remind him you will be back for additional coats and additional playfields.

#1587 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

No, it will escape into the air handler and poison the joint.
It really is too dangerous to mess with.

OK thanks for the tip, and thank you on behalf or my coworkers who will never know about my crazy plan.
I do know some classic car guys i can probably find someone to help me out... Or maybe ill try to start painting without that first coat and see how it holds up

Cheers

#1588 5 years ago

So lets say i do go ahead with the paint without clearing first, do i need to sand to help the paint stick? Il be using createx paint.
I cleaned the PF with alcohol and novus 2.

#1589 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

So lets say i do go ahead with the paint without clearing first, do i need to sand to help the paint stick? Il be using createx paint.
I cleaned the PF with alcohol and novus 2.

If there is any gloss, the paint won't stick.

#1590 5 years ago

OK, so a light 600 grit sand and wipe with naphta first?

#1591 5 years ago

1000 grit would be safer - just degloss, not sand off any art.

#1592 5 years ago

Thank you sir, will do.

#1593 5 years ago

I'm curious about what temp you would consider too cold to work with clear coating at.

I have worked with many types of resins and typically anything below 50° F is asking for problems, wondering if workable temps for 2pac are similar in your experience?

Will a portable heater in a spray booth be enough to help with colder temps, or will cold temps negatively effect how it hardens?

#1594 5 years ago

Each hardener has a temp range (read the data sheet, some cans all have the exact same temp range on the labels).

Remember that the clear, the air and the substrate should all be at the same temp.

#1595 5 years ago

I don't know if this was linked already, but PAPA have made a nice digest of this thread (with due credits)
http://papa.org/learning-center/collector-resources/playfield-restoration/

and on pinballrehab.com:
http://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/pinball-restoration/playfield/219-ultimate-playfield-restoration-guide

#1596 5 years ago

Let me know when I can buy the book =)

#1597 5 years ago
Quoted from TheRingMaster:

Let me know when I can buy the book =)

F*@kin'-A! Just take my money now.

#1598 5 years ago

Good and popular thread and if those digests are popping up like bumpers on a PF (oouh) the book might some day too.

#1599 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

I think the ball sits pretty well down there, it just looks kinda weird.
I'm wondering if maybe I could shoot the inside of the lane just a tad darker with translucent paint but "draw" it a little straighter and thinner than the actual shape.
Here's how it looks "wet".

Maybe I'm just overthinking this - I'll do the rest of the PF and see if I still care towards the end. Kinda like when I redid my kitchen. Some details nobody notices I was distraught over at first.
Certainly not professional work, but probably ok anyway.

IMG_20141128_131837040.jpg 46 KB

Yeah I'm not happy with it... I think I'll try to remodel it into the correct shape using wood filler. I picked up some Minwax epoxy wood filler at the Home Depot. I'll give that a shot, and when I get to painting time I'll try to dig myself out whatever hole I dig myself into.
I'm thinking I'll try to fake the ply wood pattern and then try to match the wood color, all with Createx paint and the airbrush. I'll wait to do that over the first layer of clear though, so I can try to fix it if I do mess it up at first.

#1600 5 years ago
Quoted from PhilGreg:

I don't know if this was linked already, but PAPA have made a nice digest of this thread (with due credits)
http://papa.org/learning-center/collector-resources/playfield-restoration/
and on pinballrehab.com:
http://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/pinball-restoration/playfield/219-ultimate-playfield-restoration-guide

Vid1900 is not only immortal but now has fame around the land, I can only hope that fortune follows.
Thanks for this incredible gift of knowledge.

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