(Topic ID: 33446)

Vid's Guide to Ultimate Playfield Restoration

By vid1900

11 years ago


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#1101 9 years ago
Quoted from Fast-Ed:

Where did you get them? Ed

I could only find them in the US on eBay. ebay.com link: Molotow ONE4ALL METALLIC BLACK Acrylic Premium Paint Marker 127HS 2MM Tip Refill

That one has a 2mm tip. It works well in conjunction with a circle template for insert edges and thicker lines. It is a tad too thick for fine line work. For that, you'll want the 1mm tip. You can buy the tips for them. These are also re-fillable.

Here is the 1mm tip version: ebay.com link: Molotow One4All Marker 127Hs Xfine Black

#1102 9 years ago

Somewhere in this epic Victor Hugo-ian thread, VId floats the idea of $15 a day to rent an air compressor. Perhaps that's the case in certain parts of the country. Here in Seattle, though, the lowest price I can find for a suitable compressor that may or may not even have the right gallon size is 30 to 45 dollars a day.

I have to buy a pancake compressor for my airbrush and staple gun anyway, which is 60 bucks. That only 100 dollars difference if I want to go with the HF one. I think that's worth it to be able to clear my own playfields with a DIY paint tent instead of trying to ask someone else if I can borrow theirs or drive all the way out to their house. Even if this thing only lasts five years, 25 bucks a year is much better than 45 a day.

Much like Kirk's faith in Spock's educated guesses, I'll take a "Looks good enough" from Vid any day as the OK to pick this guy up.

#1103 9 years ago

So here in San Diego there is a Maker Space with a real paint booth. Not sure about paint equipment but would guess they'd at least have air to the room. Not a ton of these around but may be worth at least a months membership.

If your aren't familiar with maker spaces, like a gym membership but for workshop stuff.

#1104 9 years ago

It's been 22 F#@king hours since the last post in this thread...........Vid.........Please..........Having bad withdrawals........need more info.

#1105 9 years ago

So I have a craftsman air compressor that is probably 10 years or older. It's a 5HP with a 25 gallon tank. The specs on the side of the motor say 11 CFMs at 40 psi. The HVLP gun from harbor freight says it requires 6.0 CFM at 40 psi. Am I going to be ok with my compressor even though the tank is less than 30 gallons?

#1106 9 years ago
Quoted from Deez:

So I have a craftsman air compressor that is probably 10 years or older. It's a 5HP with a 25 gallon tank. The specs on the side of the motor say 11 CFMs at 40 psi. The HVLP gun from harbor freight says it requires 6.0 CFM at 40 psi. Am I going to be ok with my compressor even though the tank is less than 30 gallons?

You have plenty of compressor and nobody can spray at 100% duty cycle for more than a few minutes anyway. You might use the equivalent of 4-5 CFM averaged out over many minutes of use. You have line and regulator losses and things not included in that 11 CFM but either way, that is going to work fine.

#1107 9 years ago
Quoted from Deez:

So I have a craftsman air compressor that is probably 10 years or older. It's a 5HP with a 25 gallon tank. The specs on the side of the motor say 11 CFMs at 40 psi. The HVLP gun from harbor freight says it requires 6.0 CFM at 40 psi. Am I going to be ok with my compressor even though the tank is less than 30 gallons?

Air tool makers always underrate their air consumption, and compressor makers always overrate their output.

As you get better at spraying, you will use way less air.

#1108 9 years ago

So after I pulled the mylar glue up, a few inserts got really cloudy. If I wet them with cleaner or alcohol, the cloudiness goes away, but once it dries it comes right back. Is there a solution to this besides replacing the insert?

#1109 9 years ago

Hey Vid,

I've got a MM playfield I was thinking about trying to restore and wanted your opinion. There seems to be quite a bit of wear. I have read through this entire thread and I am not sure of what the best approach would be.

1. Is this playfield even worth trying to restore? I've included a couple of pics of the worst wear spots, but there are other inserts with wear also. Plus, whoever had the playfield before me put a scroll decal on it and the colors don't match.
IMAG0001-613.JPGIMAG0001-613.JPG
2. Assuming this playfield is still worth restoring, I'm not sure what is the best way of fixing the wear on the shield area at the top of the playfield. Do I try to get a high res scan from someone and then laser print on white wsd paper?
IMAG0001 (2)-784.JPGIMAG0001 (2)-784.JPG
3. I can do a wsd for the Knight on the horse, but I need a high res scan. Maybe you could point me in the right direction?
IMAG0004-843.JPGIMAG0004-843.JPG
IMAG0007.JPGIMAG0007.JPG
IMAG0009-285.JPGIMAG0009-285.JPG

I would greatly appreciate any advice you could give me. I really would like to make this playfield look nice, but if it is just too far gone then any suggestions for repairing the worst spots would be helpful.

#1110 9 years ago

Gees man, I don't think it looks that bad. Saying it's "too far gone" seems a bit of an overstatement when really it's just the joust artwork that is bad. The rest is just simple ball trails. If you're going to toss it I'll gladly take it off your hands.

#1111 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Air tool makers always underrate their air consumption, and compressor makers always overrate their output.

As you get better at spraying, you will use way less air.

This is exactly what I'm worried about. I already have the compressor, so buying the spray rig wasn't a big investment to try it out. I've got a buddy passing me a trashed playfield so I can try it out.

#1112 9 years ago

You don't even need a playfield.

Practice on a piece of junk sheet metal like an old computer case side.

#1113 9 years ago

Hey Vid ! First off, thanks for this thread. It is no doubt the second best thread EVER on Pinside, only to be topped by Pinball3000

I am getting ready to start a restore on a King Of Diamonds and have run into something unexpected right off the bat. I ME & naptha'ed the PF, cleaned all that up, got the remaining paint all nice and shiny, went to lay down some frisket, and this happened where the frisket touched. My question to you is, am I going to be lifting all the rest of the paint as I do my touch ups.......only to make a problem 10x worse? PLEASE HELP !!!IMG_4509.JPGIMG_4509.JPG

#1114 9 years ago
Quoted from pinball_erie:

I ME & naptha'ed the PF, cleaned all that up, got the remaining paint all nice and shiny, went to lay down some frisket, and this happened where the frisket touched. My question to you is, am I going to be lifting all the rest of the paint as I do my touch ups.......only to make a problem 10x worse?

That is one of the reasons we always shoot a thin layer of clear to "lock down" the wood fibers, hold together chalky paint, and make sure that decals have the same substrate as their top coat.

Alcohol is also notorious for getting into the wood fibers and swelling them.

Let's see a pic of the entire playfield.

Most likely you should sand and clean your shooter lane + the ball trail leading up the top, then shoot a layer of clear to lock down all that loose paint.

1 week later
#1115 9 years ago

Vid,

Thanks for all the great information contained here. Was wondering if you could expand on filling in holes underneath the playfield to re-solidify loose screws. I read here that you just epoxy in a bamboo skewer so the screw has something to bite into.

I have a playfield where the PO broke the heads off a couple of screws and then to get the screws out they must have dug them out. There was one screw body with no head and then 2 other large holes left behind.

For this type of repair can I just ream the hole to 7/32 and epoxy in a 1/4 inch dowel? I'm worried that the dowel - which has wood grain running with the length of it - might not be enough to hold the ball popper solenoid screws which are obviously under some stress.

There is no where else to re-position the ball popper solenoid. I have to fill these holes and re-mount.

Thoughts.

#1116 9 years ago

I find that wood glue and either tooth picks or wooden dowels, depending on the size of the hole, make a fine repair in the underside of a playfield.

#1117 9 years ago
Quoted from GoodManners:

Was wondering if you could expand on filling in holes underneath the playfield to re-solidify loose screws. I read here that you just epoxy in a bamboo skewer so the screw has something to bite into.

You don't even need epoxy, just wood glue and a skewer will hold just fine.

You can fill an entire hole with epoxy and then drill a new pilot hole.

Quoted from GoodManners:

I'm worried that the dowel - which has wood grain running with the length of it - might not be enough to hold the ball popper solenoid screws which are obviously under some stress.

Wood dowels are very strong, with tight grain. Glue them in and you will never have to worry about their strength.

#1118 9 years ago

Is it safe to assume that these side areas, under the plastics, were originally white as discussed earlier in the tread? Should the be repainted white?

20140819_221352.jpg20140819_221352.jpg 20140819_221346.jpg20140819_221346.jpg 20140819_221401.jpg20140819_221401.jpg
#1119 9 years ago

Did you already Magic Eraser the topcoat off and see if it is white underneath?

#1120 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Wood dowels are very strong, with tight grain. Glue them in and you will never have to worry about their strength.

Cool - Thanks for the guidance.

#1121 9 years ago

I need some help! Does anyone have a hi res scan of the knight on the Medieval Madness pf?
IMAG0004-53.JPGIMAG0004-53.JPG
As you can see mine is in bad shape.

#1122 9 years ago

[attachment=1854234,undefined]

#1123 9 years ago
Quoted from dawgs650:

I need some help! Does anyone have a hi res scan of the knight on the Medieval Madness pf?

Here is something, sourced from repro-playfield. It's 26.6Meg tiff so won't attach it to here.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65794414/jouster.tif

Btw, whats wrong with that sample-image? It's distorted horizontally quite badly. Could be nightmare to use as source material. That image I provided isn't perfect, just a quick scan with HP 4600. So lot's of dust etc. particles, colors can be off so make test-prints before actual printing.

#1124 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Did you already Magic Eraser the topcoat off and see if it is white underneath?

The first picture is after some work with a magic eraser. I am not sure if I should give it another run or not. I am not sure if the paint has just yellowed if that was the original color.

Also, I am replacing some star inserts. Should they get sanded flat before installation like other new inserts?

#1125 9 years ago
Quoted from NickRocco:

I am not sure if the paint has just yellowed if that was the original color.

It was white 30 years ago, but nothing wrong with keeping the natural look of aged white.

Quoted from NickRocco:

Also, I am replacing some star inserts. Should they get sanded flat before installation like other new inserts?

Give them a light sanding so the clear has some tooth.

If you are not clearing, you can just polish the faces and install them.

#1126 9 years ago

There's a lot of back and forth and this and that over the suitability of a cartridge-based respirator for use with isocyanates like the JC660 clear. OSHA/NIOSH have said that the "smell test" is not an acceptable way of telling when it's time to change your cartridge, because by that point you've alreayd inhaled too much of the stuff.

3M lists the basic use life of their 6001 series cartridges thusly:

1. Cartridge service life should be at least eight hours if:

the contaminant has a boiling point greater than 70 degrees C (158 degrees F);
the concentration is less than 200 parts per million (ppm)
the relative humidity is less than 50%.

2. If the concentration is reduced by a factor of 10, the service life increases by a factor of 5.

3. Service life is inversely proportional to flow rate.

4. Relative humidities above 85% reduce the service life by 50%.

Do you have any input on how any of these variables might be different enough to effect the shelf life of cartridges? I'm fine with using them for even as little as four hours if it means I'll stay safe. From what I can tell, this stuff goes on so easily that it's not like I'll be creating a hot-box full of the stuff for hours at a time.

#1127 9 years ago

I can't tell you because I don't know the humidity or vapor concentrations of the space you work in.

Call 3Ms toll free safety line and give their product experts your particular info.

I can tell you that you will only spend 1 minute clearing a playfield, so you will get plenty of life from your cartridges.

#1128 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I can tell you that you will only spend 1 minute clearing a playfield, so you will get plenty of life from your cartridges.

That's about what I was expecting. I live in Seattle, and our humidity is usually between 45 and 60 percent, but as I said - I'm fine with only using four hours of the maximum possible eight under perfect conditions. I'd probably be OK with two hours, considering how little time I expect I'll be in the middle of a clearcoat cloud.

#1129 9 years ago

I'm picking up a mask and a pair of cartridges:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MCUULW/ref=ox_sc_act_title_3

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XBKLLE/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2

Do I need the pre-filter and pre-filter retainer as well? Or is the cartridge good enough? I'd Google it, but pretty much every place that sells these says that a half-mask and cartridges aren't acceptable for use with Isocyanates in the first place, so they're no help.

I'm thinking of getting this instead, which is a mask that isn't quite as fancy but comes with everything it looks like I need.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004Z4EB/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1

#1130 9 years ago

Vid, can you comment on the difference between these two? It looks like you've used both.

http://www.harborfreight.com/deluxe-airbrush-kit-95810.html
www.harborfreight.com/quick-change-airbrush-kit-93506.html

#1131 9 years ago

Top brush can do fading.

Bottom brush is for masked off areas only - it only sprays full on or full off.

#1132 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

It was white 30 years ago, but nothing wrong with keeping the natural look of aged white.

Give them a light sanding so the clear has some tooth.
If you are not clearing, you can just polish the faces and install them.

Vid,
I am only using 91% alcohol ( All I can find in the store). Is that enough to soften the old clear?

#1133 9 years ago

91% is fine.

#1134 9 years ago

Picked up a Monopoly a few days ago. After playing it as-is all weekend with my friends, I decided to start stripping the pf last night for cleaning. Found this...

Should show topside and under pf, then a pic of how it "should" look.

Target removed so damage is easier to see.

Thanks for any advice on how to go at this.
IMG_3252.JPGIMG_3252.JPG
IMG_3251.JPGIMG_3251.JPG
m8_zpsbde3f05e.jpgm8_zpsbde3f05e.jpg

#1135 9 years ago
Quoted from Pinstym:

Picked up a Monopoly a few days ago.

That's a cool game, you will have a lot of fun with it.

Quoted from Pinstym:

Thanks for any advice on how to go at this.

Fill it in with epoxy, or fiberglass resin.

Overfill into the target slot to give it some extra reinforcement (that means you will have to install that front target first upon reassembly). Dremel out JUST enough material to let the switch fit.

Finally drill it out and replace that post with a machine screw post (rather than a wood screw post).

Normally I'd suggest a T-nut below, but there is so little meat there, I'll gently suggest putting a metal plate underneath, and using a few inches of 12-24 threaded rod and locknuts instead of an actual post.

#1136 9 years ago

what about using an adjustable underplayfield post bracket that screws into the pf with 2 holes. the kind usually used for outlane post adjustments to make the lanes easier or harder. You would want to do the epoxy thing too to give it strength, this would be replacing the T-Nut idea with something to spread out the load better.

-c

#1137 9 years ago
Quoted from CraigC:

what about using an adjustable underplayfield post bracket that screws into the pf with 2 holes. the kind usually used for outlane post adjustments to make the lanes easier or harder. You would want to do the epoxy thing too to give it strength, this would be replacing the T-Nut idea with something to spread out the load better.
-c

The post needs to be able to accept a rubber post sleeve because it gets hit 20000 times a game, so whatever is used needs to work with that.

#1138 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Normally I'd suggest a T-nut below, but there is so little meat there, I'll gently suggest putting a metal plate underneath, and using a few inches of 12-24 threaded rod and locknuts instead of an actual post.

I think you can use a T-nut here, after repairing with maybe bondo or reinforced epoxy. Just grind off the bottom flange of the t-nut in the shape of the slot, and put a nice looking washer on top for a compression repair.
Maybe get one of the T-nuts that have the bigger flange on it. I think it would hold up better than a carved washer and a nylock underneath.

#1139 9 years ago

The crazy thing is that a machine screw was there and actually belongs there. Those solid plastic post sleeves they used on this game have to be the reason the beating was so bad. I figure the rubber post sleeves absorb much of the energy, while the solid white plastic posts just keep getting beat back.

Thanks for the input. Much appreciated.

#1140 9 years ago

what about putting the t-nut in the hole before the repair material? Thread a screw into the nut until it is flush to keep the repair out of the threads.

#1141 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The post needs to be able to accept a rubber post sleeve because it gets hit 20000 times a game, so whatever is used needs to work with that.

it would need to be tapped to a #8 #10? screw and then filled with epoxy. the plate, the epoxy and then a nylon lock nut on the bottom of the plate should hold up nicely.

i would do this over hacking up a T-nut.

-c

#1142 9 years ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

what about putting the t-nut in the hole before the repair material? Thread a screw into the nut until it is flush to keep the repair out of the threads.

Might work, but if you do that, make sure you wax the T-nut so it can be removed from the epoxy in the future. They like to strip out or the post will break off, lol.

#1143 9 years ago

This might be beyond the scope of the guide, but can you give us new sprayers some general advice on how to actually lay down a coat of clear? How do you make sure your playfield is level? How much back-and-forth do you do? Do I need to replace my Tyvek suit every X number of sprays? That kind of thing.

#1144 9 years ago
Quoted from UvulaBob:

How do you make sure your playfield is level?

Literally shim it up using a standard Construction Level.

Quoted from UvulaBob:

How much back-and-forth do you do?

You need each pass to flow evenly into the edge of the last pass.

Lay out enough clear to get it looking smooth after it flows out (after about 30 seconds).

Practice on an old computer case side, freezer door, or a piece of scrap sheet metal. After about 1 minute of practice, you are ready for a playfield.

Quoted from UvulaBob:

Do I need to replace my Tyvek suit every X number of sprays?

It will probably tear long before you get too much clear on it.

Keep it clean so you don't have trash falling into your clear.

Always wipe the last 4 feet of air hose clean of trash before you start, too.

#1145 9 years ago

Thanks a lot for all this information vid.

Is there any trick to easily remove the dried white wet sanding residual that ends up on the vertical walls of playfield openings? I tried alcohol and naphta but it feel like it always require a bunch of careful manual work. In some cases the residual seems stuck in some crack and refuses to go away.

#1146 9 years ago

I'm having a hell of a time finding PPG Shopline anywhere in the Seattle area. Can you recommend any other clear types? The places around here offer PPG Omni. Do you think that'll be good enough for a beginner and/or a playfield?

#1147 9 years ago
Quoted from lb1:

Thanks a lot for all this information vid.
Is there any trick to easily remove the dried white wet sanding residual that ends up on the vertical walls of playfield openings? I tried alcohol and naphta but it feel like it always require a bunch of careful manual work. In some cases the residual seems stuck in some crack and refuses to go away.

I usually use the blow gun at 150psi outdoors.

#1148 9 years ago
Quoted from UvulaBob:

I'm having a hell of a time finding PPG Shopline anywhere in the Seattle area. Can you recommend any other clear types? The places around here offer PPG Omni. Do you think that'll be good enough for a beginner and/or a playfield?

Omni and Shopline are the same really.

If a store only carries PPG, they will have Omni and if they carry many brands of paint, they will have Shopline.

#1149 9 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Magic Eraser + Alcohol works best when the cracks and ball swirl is in the top coat of the playfield AND when the top coat is Alcohol Soluble.
Here we have the usual cracks in the top coat of the playfield. The playfield top coat is Alcohol Soluble ( tested under the apron).
Using ME + 96% Isopropyl Alcohol (don't use the 50-75% Alcohol, or all that water can raise the grain of the wood), we wet the top coat with a light, quick scrub. Wait 30 seconds for the top coat to soften, and return to give the area a gentle scrubbing.

CRACKS.jpg 154 KB

I am using ME for removing balltrails and "cracks" but I find it very very hard (In the yellow on image).
It feels like as soon as I am deep enough for reaching the crack i start removing paint.
Am I doing something wrong or are the "cracks" just all the way through the paint? :-/

EDIT: Could the cracks be planking? I did not think it was planking because it was so inconsistent.. But if I have to mask and spray it I guess. Is it no problem to cut the masking when its not straight lines?

Billede 05-09-14 17.14.14.jpgBillede 05-09-14 17.14.14.jpg

#1150 9 years ago
Quoted from tezting:

Could the cracks be planking?

That's what the picture looks like.

Quoted from tezting:

Is it no problem to cut the masking when its not straight lines?

You will develop the skill of cutting "freehand" with the frisket. Stick it down, cut your lines, and "weed" it.

You of course can also use straight edges, milk caps or any other guide to help you cut exactly on the line.

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