Vid's Guide to Ultimate Playfield Restoration

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#8051 1 year ago

???

joshmc

Pinside member

Gold Coast

3y 26,800 180

Quoted from pinballinreno:
More and more, people are direct printing these old playfields.
Intricate restorations are probably going out of style in favor of fast wearable surfaces that can be rapidly and cheaply re-inked.
Its not better, but faster and cheaper.

True but there is something “special” about a restoration that has been done with care using masking, airbrush etc… vs a printout which is just laid over the top. I’ll consider that as a last resort. Besides, at the very least I would need a decent scan of a playfield that’s in good condition. No one seems to have one.

0

#8052 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from joshmc:
True but there is something “special” about a restoration that has been done with care using masking, airbrush etc… vs a printout which is just laid over the top. I’ll consider that as a last resort. Besides, at the very least I would need a decent scan of a playfield that’s in good condition. No one seems to have one.

Getting a really good scan or one thats all cleaned up is manditory.

But, they exist and can be acquired.

This is why more and more companies are offering playfield restoration.

Its super quick and easy compared to the hand painted way.

It may not be as artful or perfect.

But give them time...

0

#8053 1 year ago

BSM

sethbenjamin

ReplayResto

Greenfield, MA

12y 84,050 1,447 8

Quoted from joshmc:
Besides, at the very least I would need a decent scan of a playfield that’s in good condition. No one seems to have one.

Much depends on your level of skill, but have you considered scanning the existing playfield and fixing things digitally?
You can make stencil images that can then be cut by a Silhouette or Crikut.
Would take some doing, but if you’re up for the challenge, it can absolutely be done.

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1

#8054 1 year ago

KEN

radium

Pinside+ Frequent

Covington, LA

10y 93,550 4,153 12 2

Quoted from jazc4:
Thanks Zitt. I agree. I was surprised how easy and definitely fun it was with Spraymax. I'm sure hvlp will be also. I have all of the equipment. Which clear do you use when not using the lower tier clear?

Noticed you never got an answer. I just use the one vid recommended 50 years ago, PPG JC660. People will gush about others, but a lot of those people are more experienced than I am and I like that JC660 is beginner-friendly. Like... I'm not going to run out and buy the same clear that HEP uses.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/16#post-1669058

0

#8055 1 year ago

BSM

sethbenjamin

ReplayResto

Greenfield, MA

12y 84,050 1,447 8

…or for that matter you can make full color white-backed waterslide decals. That can be tricky to pull off but the option is there.

0

#8056 1 year ago

MCP

packie1

Pinside+ Addict

Kewanee, IL

12y 57,800 638 26

Quoted from pinballinreno:
More and more, people are direct printing these old playfields.
Intricate restorations are probably going out of style in favor of fast wearable surfaces that can be rapidly and cheaply re-inked.
Its not better, but faster and cheaper.

Where is that? Not a fan of cheap and quick, more curious about the process.
Mike

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1

#8057 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from packie1:
Where is that? Not a fan of cheap and quick, more curious about the process.
Mike

This process has been used effectively on playfields:

You can use a heat gun (as noted in tnis video) and set a playfield glass over a beach towel on top until cooled.

I can imagine buying a printed playfield image and applying it myself, then clear coating ovet it.

Not shown in the video, but you get the idea.

0

#8058 1 year ago

ACE

jazc4

Pinside member

Humble, TX

10y 90,050 1,669 10 8

Quoted from radium:
Noticed you never got an answer. I just use the one vid recommended 50 years ago, PPG JC660. People will gush about others, but a lot of those people are more experienced than I am and I like that JC660 is beginner-friendly. Like... I'm not going to run out and buy the same clear that HEP uses.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/16#post-1669058

Thanks Radium!

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1

#8059 1 year ago

BSM

sethbenjamin

ReplayResto

Greenfield, MA

12y 84,050 1,447 8

Quoted from pinballinreno:
can imagine buying a printed playfield image and applying it myself, then clear coating ovet it.

That seems far superior to hardtops.
I’ll be interested to see how this shapes up going forward. I take satisfaction from restoring playfields, but it’s a time vortex.
Consider me highly intrigued.

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1

#8060 1 year ago

???

joshmc

Pinside member

Gold Coast

3y 26,800 180

Quoted from pinballinreno:
This process has been used effectively on playfields:

You can use a heat gun (as noted in tnis video) and set a playfield glass over a beach towel on top until cooled.
I can imagine buying a printed playfield image and applying it myself, then clear coating ovet it.
Not shown in the video, but you get the idea.

Holy crap. That would work superbly for playfields

0

#8061 1 year ago

???

joshmc

Pinside member

Gold Coast

3y 26,800 180

Quoted from sethbenjamin:
Much depends on your level of skill, but have you considered scanning the existing playfield and fixing things digitally?
You can make stencil images that can then be cut by a Silhouette or Crikut.
Would take some doing, but if you’re up for the challenge, it can absolutely be done.

I could most definitely scan exisiting artwork and patch up in photoshop but IMO it would still be subpar compared to getting a scan of a NOS in good condition. I think I may have found someone with access to a NOS so will see how that goes. In the meantime, I’ll work with what I have. It’s very patchy in some areas

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2

#8062 1 year ago

TIM

MT45

Pinball Loft

Lenoir City, TN

11y 110K 2,371 38 10

Quoted from radium:
Noticed you never got an answer. I just use the one vid recommended 50 years ago, PPG JC660. People will gush about others, but a lot of those people are more experienced than I am and I like that JC660 is beginner-friendly. Like... I'm not going to run out and buy the same clear that HEP uses.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/16#post-1669058

I used similar JC661; medium hardener for my BOP
Came out awesome
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/3-years-for-my-bride-of-pinbot

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#8063 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from sethbenjamin:
That seems far superior to hardtops.
I’ll be interested to see how this shapes up going forward. I take satisfaction from restoring playfields, but it’s a time vortex.
Consider me highly intrigued.

Its already being done in Germany.

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#8064 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from joshmc:
Holy crap. That would work superbly for playfields

Yep

I think its coming real soon. Same results after clear coating as a $1200 new playfield for $100 or less for the image and then maybe $150 to clear it.

0

#8065 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from pinballinreno:
Yep
I think its coming real soon. Same results after clear coating as a $1200 new playfield for $100 or less for the image and then maybe $150 to clear it.

Colors may vary a bit, but its plenty good enough.

0

#8066 1 year ago

CCA

phototamer

Pinside member

Limassol

6y 49,800 557 3

Quoted from pinballinreno:
This process has been used effectively on playfields:

You can use a heat gun (as noted in tnis video) and set a playfield glass over a beach towel on top until cooled.
I can imagine buying a printed playfield image and applying it myself, then clear coating ovet it.
Not shown in the video, but you get the idea.

Well , this is a first for me !
In my recent Robo-war restoration I used pretty large area water slide decals to fix extensive damage on the playfield and while I was sceptic of the outcome , it came out perfect. This though is looks fantastic !!

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#8067 1 year ago

SMM

dr_nybble

Pinside+ Frequent

Ottawa, ON

10y 114K 3,538 15

I saw this which doesn’t need any special equipment, wonder how it would work —

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1

#8068 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from dr_nybble:
I saw this which doesn’t need any special equipment, wonder how it would work —

Should work perfectly!

Like I said before, this is the coming trend.

No more air brushing.
No more color matching.
No more silk screens.
No more hard tops.
No more water slides.

Just get the art and apply it to the plywood.

Perfect results.

The heat transfer method is also as easy as you can use a regular clothes iron, then let it cool under a towel with a glass on top.

(Go light and fast over the inserts please)

Keylines? No problem.

Then clear over it.

The t-shirt industry paved the way decades ago.

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#8069 1 year ago

SMM

dr_nybble

Pinside+ Frequent

Ottawa, ON

10y 114K 3,538 15

The downside is that the colour gamut is worse for a CYMK laser than an inkjet with 10-12 inks.

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1

#8070 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from dr_nybble:
The downside is that the colour gamut is worse for a CYMK laser than an inkjet with 10-12 inks.

Yep. This is true

But better toner is already here.

I never said it was absolutely perfect, but fast and easy that anyone can do with very good results.

It may be that a protective coat of varnish might be needed before clear coat.

Dry transfer has been used before on playfields but never at this scale.

0

#8071 1 year ago

SMM

dr_nybble

Pinside+ Frequent

Ottawa, ON

10y 114K 3,538 15

I’ll probably give it a try on a scrap playfield I have.

0

#8072 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from dr_nybble:
I’ll probably give it a try on a scrap playfield I have.

Ghost white toner is available for 700 different printers.

From what I under stand, you put it in place of one of the colors (say cyan) and change the image to print cyan.
The printer would then print white where the cyan was.

I havent done it yet but the idea is intriguing.

0

#8073 1 year ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,198 18

Kinda like when you etch circuit boards at home, you laser print a mirror image onto the shiny side of HP photo paper, then iron-on the toner to a copper clad board.

The laser toner is wax, so it melts onto the copper, then repels the acid from eating the copper protected by the toner.

pcb-ttp-1 (resized).jpg

0

#8074 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Kinda like when you etch circuit boards at home, you laser print a mirror image onto the shiny side of HP photo paper, then iron-on the toner to a copper clad board.
The laser toner is wax, so it melts onto the copper, then repels the acid from eating the copper protected by the toner.[quoted image]

Other than sorting out a large format printer...

I was particularly interested in dry transferring half tones and gradients onto whole sections that need to be painted.

Or any section for that matter.

One could patchwork everything effectively on a regular color laser printer.

Printing complete overlays needs to be investigated a little more, but Im confident it can also be done.

I think that the days of color matching and frisket are soon to be over.

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1

#8075 1 year ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,198 18

You have to get the printer ink to permanently stick to the Playfield.

Otherwise, the Clear pulls it up, and you get the German Mir-cull surprise
bad mirco (resized).jpg

0

#8076 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
You have to get the printer ink to permanently stick to the Playfield.
Otherwise, the Clear pulls it up, and you get the German Mir-cull surprise
[quoted image]

I wonder if light scuffing or applying and artist fixative would help the toner to stick?

0

#8077 1 year ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,198 18

Quoted from pinballinreno:
I wonder if light scuffing or applying and artist fixative would help the toner to stick?

Hard to say.

Toner is wax that melts to the porous paper

So if it does not stick permanently to the wood surface, you'll get pooling and lifting like a German playfield - no matter how good the clearcoat

0

#8078 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
Hard to say.
Toner is wax that melts to the porous paper
So if it does not stick permanently to the wood surface, you'll get pooling and lifting - no matter how good the clearcoat

Varnish might go over it.

It sticks pretty well to oily/waxy wood. Not perfectly, but it does seal.

P2K sticks pretty good to varnish. Thats already been established.

It may all be just a matter of proceedure and layers.

Much as applying primer to a surface.

Varnish as a primer?

0

#8079 1 year ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,198 18

Quoted from pinballinreno:
Varnish as a primer?

If you think about it, both BIN and Kilz Original are shellac based primers.

The Shellac dries so fast, that stains don't have time to telegraph through like normal primer; and are permanently sealed under

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1

#8080 1 year ago

MCP

packie1

Pinside+ Addict

Kewanee, IL

12y 57,800 638 26

Hello All:
I have access to large format color ink printers. If you point me in the direction of roll paper, I am willing to give this idea a try on a spare playfield I have.
Mike

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#8081 1 year ago

TOM

pinballinreno

Computer Extreme

9y 134K 15,505 31

Quoted from packie1:
Hello All:
I have access to large format color ink printers. If you point me in the direction of roll paper, I am willing to give this idea a try on a spare playfield I have.
Mike

You need laser printers that use toner.

Toner is wax based.

This is why you can transfer it off of the paper or slippery substrate.

Dry transfer is exactly this method.

The printer should also support ghost white toner.

A large format t-shirt or fabric printer would be ideal.

0

1

#8082 1 year ago

MCP

packie1

Pinside+ Addict

Kewanee, IL

12y 57,800 638 26

Quoted from pinballinreno:
You need laser printers that use toner.
Toner is wax based.
This is why you can transfer it off of the paper or slippery substrate.
Dry transfer is exactly this method.
The printer should also support ghost white toner.
A large format t-shirt or fabric printer would be ideal.

Damn IT!!!

0

#8083 1 year ago

BSM

sethbenjamin

ReplayResto

Greenfield, MA

12y 84,050 1,447 8

On the subject of the toner adhering to the surface, would it not make sense to shoot a layer of clear first and then do the transfer, then a topcoat? I understand we’re talking about a different animal from Createx paints or decals.

In my experience it’s pretty hard/impossible to get a black that matches playfield ink black, but perhaps that’s less of an issue with a large format professional print shop machine.

In any case, this sounds really interesting.
I’m curious about the capacity of the smaller time restorers and hobbyists to draft full playfields that lay out 1 perfectly. I’d be up for the challenge of tracing/re-drawing a full playfield in individual color layers - I do it all the time when making decals. But it would presumably be a Thing To Do for me to be certain it lays out and aligns properly.
Anyhow, some very interesting potential here, and I look forward to learning more.

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#8084 1 year ago

ZIT

Zitt

Pinball-Mods.com

Austin, TX

11y 112K 7,861 15 10

Quoted from radium:
Noticed you never got an answer. I just use the one vid recommended 50 years ago, PPG JC660. People will gush about others, but a lot of those people are more experienced than I am and I like that JC660 is beginner-friendly. Like... I'm not going to run out and buy the same clear that HEP uses.

I've been meaning to get a picture but keep forgetting
chromaclear clear coat dupont
Is close

0

#8085 1 year ago

???

jecase

Pinside member

Kansas City, MO

8y 33,800 97 6

I can't seem to find an earlier answer to this common issue. I am repairing a damaged and worn saucer on TOTAN and the big scoop hole on Monster Bash. What Createx paint mix will be a good match for the plain unpainted wood color? Thanks!

0

#8086 1 year ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,198 18

Every playfield has a different wood shade

Trees are different, exposure to UV is different

It's not permanent until you heatset it, so make a few trial dots until you find a match

0

#8087 1 year ago

JMG

Pin_Fandango

Pin Fandango

Ottawa, ON

3y 82,550 4,363

OP
Quoted from vid1900:
You have to get the printer ink to permanently stick to the Playfield.
Otherwise, the Clear pulls it up, and you get the German Mir-cull surprise
[quoted image]

This sucks! What is this?

Sorry Is this a decal printed with a laser printer? I thought it was recommend to use laser.

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1

#8088 1 year ago

SMM

dr_nybble

Pinside+ Frequent

Ottawa, ON

10y 114K 3,538 15

Quoted from Pin_Fandango:This sucks! What is this?
Sorry Is this a decal printed with a laser printer? I thought it was recommend to use laser.

That is a repro AFM playfield where the ink didn’t adhere properly.

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1

#8089 1 year ago

???

CryptKeeperAUS

Pinside member

Perth

5y 52,050 427 5

It seems with project pins becoming harder to find, playfields that would once be considered too far gone for artwork spot repair are being sanded back bare wood and going down the entire playfield overlay restoration route.

The majority of restoration principles outlined by Vid in this forum were a huge help but now i have done one, I did have a few questions specific to the overlay process as i didnt find much information on out there in forums.

For context, the basic process i followed;

Back to bare wood playfield sand 400, 800, insert repairs, Epoxy repairs to worn timber spots, prep etc.

Clear coat followed by 800 grit prep x 2 for a good flat surface

Whole playfield adhesive decal applied

Clear coat thereafter x 2

My understanding on Overlays is they are usually a clear substrate adhesive type with printing on top. That said, the reaction between a fresh coat of clear and the overlay adhesive is mostly unknown? Is it best to give the clear a week or two before sanding and applying the decal? I have seen some completes overlay restorations with a browning/darkening around inserts. I assumed a chemical reaction so waited for the clear to set.

Alao I'm assuming, aiming for a chemical bond between the clear below and above the decal is impossible as these types of whole playfield decals dont seem to be permeable?

Is there an ideal final grit for decal adhesion? I did not want to polish the inserts incase there was a reaction with the decal adhesive but this also results in slightly dull inserts. In hindsight, going to 1500 may have been better than 800? Perhaps even polished?

Thanks

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#8090 1 year ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,198 18

Quoted from Pin_Fandango:
This sucks! What is this?
Sorry Is this a decal printed with a laser printer? I thought it was recommend to use laser.

AFM playfield made by robots in Germany.

Total junk, maker refused to replace it.

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1

#8091 1 year ago

CCA

phototamer

Pinside member

Limassol

6y 49,800 557 3

Quoted from CryptKeeperAUS:
Is there an ideal final grit for decal adhesion? I did not want to polish the inserts incase there was a reaction with the decal adhesive but this also results in slightly dull inserts. In hindsight, going to 1500 may have been better than 800? Perhaps even polished?
Thanks

As I see it for a better adhesion of decal to a clear coated surface , the finer the grade the surface is sanded , the larger the presented surface becomes . the larger the contact surface for a decal the stronger the adhesion. So , logically a polished surface would be ideal for decal to be applied.

0

#8092 1 year ago

JMG

Pin_Fandango

Pin Fandango

Ottawa, ON

3y 82,550 4,363

Quoted from phototamer:
As I see it for a better adhesion of decal to a clear coated surface , the finer the grade the surface is sanded , the larger the presented surface becomes . the larger the contact surface for a decal the stronger the adhesion. So , logically a polished surface would be ideal for decal to be applied.

I was wondering about this. But how do you deal with further clear applications?
My question being, since you want the next coat to get some bite, you would need to sand…
How do you sand the pf while avoiding a freshly installed decal…?

0

#8093 1 year ago

???

CryptKeeperAUS

Pinside member

Perth

5y 52,050 427 5

Quoted from phototamer:
As I see it for a better adhesion of decal to a clear coated surface , the finer the grade the surface is sanded , the larger the presented surface becomes . the larger the contact surface for a decal the stronger the adhesion. So , logically a polished surface would be ideal for decal to be applied.

I had a think about this, and the thickness of the decal adhesive used may play a small part . These calcs may be off but, 800 grit should give a surface with 25 microns variance, so 0.025mm surface abrasions. If the adhesive coat on the decal is thick enough to contour to these smaller ridges/valleys there is technically more surface area/bite.

Anyway I don't want to become any more of a thread hijacker than I already am. Also did want to reiterate I see overlays as a last resort measure. For many here I imagine it's a bit like sending DaVinci to Homedepot to get some wallpaper instead of picking up the brush...

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#8094 1 year ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,198 18

Quoted from Pin_Fandango:
I was wondering about this. But how do you deal with further clear applications?
My question being, since you want the next coat to get some bite, you would need to sand…
How do you sand the pf while avoiding a freshly installed decal…?

There is no problem just hand sanding (detail sanding) around the decal after application

0

#8095 1 year ago

CCA

phototamer

Pinside member

Limassol

6y 49,800 557 3

Quoted from CryptKeeperAUS: Also did want to reiterate I see overlays as a last resort measure. For many here I imagine it's a bit like sending DaVinci to Homedepot to get some wallpaper instead of picking up the brush...

In total agreement ! All the joy I get from playfield resto is using my hands , airbrushing , brushing , applying decals ...

Quoted from Pin_Fandango:
I was wondering about this. But how do you deal with further clear applications?
My question being, since you want the next coat to get some bite, you would need to sand…
How do you sand the pf while avoiding a freshly installed decal…?

Others may think differently , but in my experience you can go up to 1000 grit without any problems with the clear coat.
Or as Vid Stated , detail sanding around the applied decal would do the trick.

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#8096 1 year ago

JMG

Pin_Fandango

Pin Fandango

Ottawa, ON

3y 82,550 4,363

Quoted from phototamer:
In total agreement ! All the joy I get from playfield resto is using my hands , airbrushing , brushing , applying decals ...

Others may think differently , but in my experience you can go up to 1000 grit without any problems with the clear coat.
Or as Vid Stated , detail sanding around the applied decal would do the trick.

1000 grit before applying the decal? To then apply on a sanded pf? Or 1000 to sand over the decal?

0

#8097 1 year ago

AGL

Alan_L

Pinside+ Frequent

Jarrettsville, MD

12y 73,800 1,388 6

What's the best recommendation for a sander to remove playfield graphics prior to installing a Hardtop? Rotary, vibrating or DA?

0

#8098 1 year ago

JRS

Tokkentakker

Pinside+ Frequent

Greenville, NC

10y 62,900 958 46

So I've gotten up the nerve to attempt my first playfield restoration. Mylar removal didn't go too well but I'm pushing on so I can learn the techniques in this fantastic thread. I going to attempt to make waterslide decals to either repair just the black numbers and keylines on each pool ball or I will maybe make a colored waterslide of each whole pool ball. Any thoughts? Also any recommendations on buying a good laser printer for this task without breaking the budget?

20220807_120712 (resized).jpg

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#8099 1 year ago

OP

BOY

vid1900

Pinside+ Member

Sana'a

12y 164K 40,198 18

Quoted from Tokkentakker:
Also any recommendations on buying a good laser printer for this task without breaking the budget?

Inexpensive laser printers don't do too well on colors like Hot Pink, neon orange and Lime....really just the very basic colors.

It's possible that they do make a toner that can do them (especially now that they sell white toner), but I've not seen it.

0

#8100 1 year ago

BSM

sethbenjamin

ReplayResto

Greenfield, MA

12y 84,050 1,447 8

Quoted from Tokkentakker:
Any thoughts? Also any recommendations on buying a good laser printer for this task without breaking the budget?

I used a $300 Brother home office laser printer which performed decently, but as Vid says, the color output might not be so great for what you need. In general though, $300-$350 seems to be enough to get you an adequate printer for basic decals. I would add, though, that the Brother printer ate itself alive when I ran one too many decals in a session and it wrapped itself around the fuser drum. You really can’t do a lot of them at a time. I replaced the Brother with a Xerox which is twice the size and is a complete pain in the ass to use. So avoid those.

You may want to look into a Crickut or Silhouette cutter for this project. You’ll be able to cut very accurate masks and repaint all these details. Down side is, you would likely have to apply clear in between layers, as aligning the masks depends on setting the surface so that you can move them around (the previous paint wont play well with this treatment.) But the up side is very clean curves and number cutouts. And the opacity of airbrushed paint is much better than any decal, even doubled up.

By vid1900

11 years ago

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