(Topic ID: 33446)

Vid's Guide to Ultimate Playfield Restoration

By vid1900

11 years ago


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#6051 5 years ago

Those buttons are pressings... Carefully wiggle each fastener out.
They are valuable!

#6052 5 years ago
Quoted from vec-tor:

Those buttons are pressings... Carefully wiggle each fastener out.
They are valuable!

Oh! Coolio. Thanks!

#6053 5 years ago

Does anyone have any opinions on if Meguire's Medium cut is safe for mylar? Referenced earlier in the thread here?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/27#post-1986506

I'm looking for an alternative to the old Treasure Cove kit. I had great results with mylar polishing with that kit. I've used the Meguires Swirl Removal and that works decent, but wondering if the medium cut (with a drill to apply - I know... keep it moving) would be too harsh for mylar.

#6054 5 years ago
Quoted from williams:

Does anyone have any opinions on if Meguire's Medium cut is safe for mylar? Referenced earlier in the thread here?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration/page/27#post-1986506
I'm looking for an alternative to the old Treasure Cove kit. I had great results with mylar polishing with that kit. I've used the Meguires Swirl Removal and that works decent, but wondering if the medium cut (with a drill to apply - I know... keep it moving) would be too harsh for mylar.

Mylar is cheap, slap some on a piece of scrap and polish the hell out of it and see.

#6055 5 years ago

There are so many brands of "Mylar" that have been used in the last 50 years, that it's tough to say anything will work for sure.

That super thin stuff seems to quickly burn through.

#6056 5 years ago

I've placed old star rollovers upside down in their holes when spraying clearcoat, but I've never dealt with this style of rollover button. Would I need to do the same with these to keep them from getting gummed up?

20180923_172506 (resized).jpg20180923_172506 (resized).jpg

#6057 5 years ago

You can use a washer of the same size outer ring if you don't want to risk your rare rollover buttons.

#6058 5 years ago

I have replacement buttons already, so that's not a problem. But I should cover the OUTER rings that are level with the playfield? I thought the issue would be with the sunken inner rings.

#6059 5 years ago
Quoted from TopMoose:

I thought the issue would be with the sunken inner rings.

Keep the "sunken" inner circle clean.

#6060 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Clear two-part epoxy is the glue of choice here.
We know it sticks to our primed plastic, we know it sticks to wood.
Any glue you can easily chip off of an old sacrifice insert like wood glue, Gorilla Glue or silicone is obviously not going to give us the permanent bond we require.
I use Two Heads epoxy, but you can use just about any brand. One of my favorite restorers has been using the Harbor Freight $1.50 stuff (http://www.harborfreight.com/super-strong-quick-drying-epoxy-92665.html ) for years with perfect results.
Pick a brand with honey-like consistency, you don't want a big mess dripping out the bottom of the playfield.
Always apply the glue from the bottom of the playfield. This way you won't drip on the painted surface and the "squeeze out" will head towards the underside.
Never apply glue to the insert itself, or the squeeze out will all be on top of the playfield.
If you do somehow get glue on the playfield surface, wipe quickly with a rag lightly dampened with Acetone.
Use an "acid brush" to apply the glue. Epoxy dries quickly, so you will throw a bunch away as you work. Don't bother trying to clean or save them.
If you are a beginner, glue up maybe 2 inserts at a time. Don't get too far ahead of yourself, once the glue hits its "work time" it starts to set up fast!
[quoted image]

Dumb logistical question, for actually "inserting the inserts" into the playfield, I assume you want to put them in from the top, so any excess glue would run down towards the cabinet - correct? Getting ready to replace a few badly cupped inserts on my Flash. Thanks!

#6061 5 years ago
Quoted from grantopia:

Dumb logistical question, for actually "inserting the inserts" into the playfield, I assume you want to put them in from the top, so any excess glue would run down towards the cabinet - correct?

Yep - It's covered way back on page one - linked post #40

#6062 5 years ago

Vid - I had a quick question regarding bare wood and recoloring it. I searched the thread, but the best I could find was the below. Can you elaborate on using shellac (or lacquer or some other method) for staining bare wood back to a similar aged color? If it was just the shooter lane, I probably wouldn't worry about it for my first PF repair - but it's a Pinball Pool and had a lot of bare wood wear right in front of the flippers as well I'd like to at least get close.

"2. Sand out the shooter lane (paint if necessary), sand out the ball trail that leads up to the top arch (don't try to spot sand, sand all the wood to the edge of the graphics, sand the bare wood by the flippers up to the graphics, sand the two kick out saucers (wood filler and paint if necessary), sand in front of slingshots. Use some shellac to "stain" the wood back to a realistic color for it's age. "

#6063 5 years ago
Quoted from statictrance:

Vid - I had a quick question regarding bare wood and recoloring it. I searched the thread, but the best I could find was the below. Can you elaborate on using shellac (or lacquer or some other method) for staining bare wood back to a similar aged color? If it was just the shooter lane, I probably wouldn't worry about it for my first PF repair - but it's a Pinball Pool and had a lot of bare wood wear right in front of the flippers as well I'd like to at least get close.

Shellac is easy to work with.

Apply layer over layer until it's as dark as you want.

It dries fast.

Practice on a piece of maple, so you are confident when you start the playfield.

#6064 5 years ago

Working on a Bally field right now that had an extreme amount of wear at the kick out. With that repaired I am now faced with trying to match the filler's color to that of the wood. How can I go about doing so?

#6065 5 years ago
Quoted from sohchx:

Working on a Bally field right now that had an extreme amount of wear at the kick out. With that repaired I am now faced with trying to match the filler's color to that of the wood. How can I go about doing so?

Pics needed, but generally people paint the repair to match the surrounding playfield.

#6066 5 years ago

OK - one more stupid question. I know we've talked laser printers to make water slides. (still trying to find a decent one that isn't expensive - they always sell out when you post them here). What about scanner beds? Is HP kind of the gold standard, or would any see through type scanner fit the bill?

#6067 5 years ago
Quoted from statictrance:

OK - one more stupid question. I know we've talked laser printers to make water slides. (still trying to find a decent one that isn't expensive - they always sell out when you post them here). What about scanner beds? Is HP kind of the gold standard, or would any see through type scanner fit the bill?

I haven't done this yet, but one could take any flat bed scanner and remove the lid. I bought one of those old HP jobs on eBay but cannot for the life of me find software to enable me to use it. Others don't seem to have been shut down the way I have been, but FWIW, a newer scanner, even if you have to bust off the lid, might be way easier to deal with at this point.

#6068 5 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

I haven't done this yet, but one could take any flat bed scanner and remove the lid. I bought one of those old HP jobs on eBay but cannot for the life of me find software to enable me to use it. Others don't seem to have been shut down the way I have been, but FWIW, a newer scanner, even if you have to bust off the lid, might be way easier to deal with at this point.

Most of them have a raised edge around them that would raise the glass off the playfield resulting in out-of-focus scans. I've heard of people taking them apart and making it work, but I haven't tried it. On my HP I don't think I loaded any special software or drivers, windows 10 recognized it and I used photoshop for scanning.

#6069 5 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

I haven't done this yet, but one could take any flat bed scanner and remove the lid. I bought one of those old HP jobs on eBay but cannot for the life of me find software to enable me to use it. Others don't seem to have been shut down the way I have been, but FWIW, a newer scanner, even if you have to bust off the lid, might be way easier to deal with at this point.

I run mine through Photoshop elements...HP still has the drivers available to download.

#6070 5 years ago

None of the drivers worked on the old Windows 7 computer my mother in law was throwing out. And there are zero drivers for Mac, of course. Would love to be able to *use* the damn thing, but I sank a couple hours into the project a while back and got frustrated and haven't revisited it...

#6071 5 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

None of the drivers worked on the old Windows 7 computer my mother in law was throwing out. And there are zero drivers for Mac, of course. Would love to be able to *use* the damn thing, but I sank a couple hours into the project a while back and got frustrated and haven't revisited it...

If you could borrow a slightly newer laptop off someone for a day, you should be able to make it work.

#6072 5 years ago

Can you guys throw out a model number or two for the ones you do have? Maybe I'm searching by the wrong verbiage, but I keep finding either regular old flatbed scanners or small 'run the paper through it' type scanners. The clear/see through flatbed portables aren't showing. (are they phased out even?)

There is one - but it's only 300-600 DPI. Is that sharp enough? https://www.amazon.com/Flip-Pal-adapter-EasyStitch-StoryScans-software/dp/B003VPPA56/ref=sr_1_3

or if anyone has a lead on a cheap laser printer again - I'll be quick this time, haha.

#6073 5 years ago

You're looking for an HP 4600 series scanner... They have been out of production for close to a decade. You'll have to watch eBay... And make absolutely sure it has the adapter cord, or you will have a brick on your hands. And the adapters are unobtanium.

#6074 5 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

If you could borrow a slightly newer laptop off someone for a day, you should be able to make it work.

I picked up a dirt cheap laptop running XP. It drives the old hp scanners just fine all by itself with the native scanning interface. Look on Ebay or in thrift stores. Pretty much nobody wants a computer that old, so they go cheap.

#6075 5 years ago
Quoted from pinheadpierre:

I picked up a dirt cheap laptop running XP. It drives the old hp scanners just fine all by itself with the native scanning interface. Look on Ebay or in thrift stores. Pretty much nobody wants a computer that old, so they go cheap.

It must be something about Windows 7...my windows 10 laptop runs it just fine. I'll have to try it on my Windows 7 desktop sometime.

#6076 5 years ago

I'm about to give up on this playfield. Every time I put clear down I get a new problem.

Now, this WSD (the circular checkerboard pattern, and green circle) has been cleared over with several light coats. Sanded between each. I put down a fairly good coat of clear and it bubbled up. About 1 inch or so total affected area. Could this decal "suck" air in from the holes in the playfield for the pops?

I already know the wood on this game is suspect, as I've had significant flaking around many of the edges/holes etc.

Does a thicker coat of 2PAC have too much heat at times for weak paint/wood?

Thoughts?

IMG_5667 (resized).JPGIMG_5667 (resized).JPGIMG_5668 (resized).JPGIMG_5668 (resized).JPG
#6077 5 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

It must be something about Windows 7...my windows 10 laptop runs it just fine. I'll have to try it on my Windows 7 desktop sometime.

My Win10 laptop runs the Vista64 HP drivers no problem

#6078 5 years ago
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:

Now, this WSD (the circular checkerboard pattern, and green circle) has been cleared over with several light coats. Sanded between each. I put down a fairly good coat of clear and it bubbled up. About 1 inch or so total affected area. Could this decal "suck" air in from the holes in the playfield for the pops?

I'm not even sure what I'm looking at.

Is that a decal, or Mylar or....?

Is a decal lifting or the clear or.....?

Give some pics from different angles

#6079 5 years ago

Bally Nitro Ground Shaker.
I would just buy a new playfield.

#6080 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'm not even sure what I'm looking at.

Fair enough!

Here you go.

Bally NGS. The original art around pops was heavily damaged from mylar removal. I recreated the art in photoshop, printed on white waterslides and put them down. Several very light coats of 2PAC as I always do.... however, after a couple of heavier coats, I got this bubble underneath.

I haven't cut it yet to see if it pulled the original art from the playfield. I sanded between each coat and this was sandwiched between layers of clear.

I don't know why/how I got this bubble?

Is is at all common with WS decals?

Thanks!

IMG_5670 (resized).JPGIMG_5670 (resized).JPGIMG_5671 (resized).JPGIMG_5671 (resized).JPGIMG_5672 (resized).JPGIMG_5672 (resized).JPGIMG_5673 (resized).JPGIMG_5673 (resized).JPG
#6081 5 years ago
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:

Fair enough!
Here you go.
Bally NGS. The original art around pops was heavily damaged from mylar removal. I recreated the art in photoshop, printed on white waterslides and put them down. Several very light coats of 2PAC as I always do.... however, after a couple of heavier coats, I got this bubble underneath.
I haven't cut it yet to see if it pulled the original art from the playfield. I sanded between each coat and this was sandwiched between layers of clear.
I don't know why/how I got this bubble?
Is is at all common with WS decals?
Thanks!
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Just curious if you used any decal setting solution. I have several decals that are probably about that size on my Fire and have never had an issue. I’ve used water slides several times. I would be curious to know if the decal came up or the later of clear below it. I know how much work went into that. Sucks.

#6082 5 years ago
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:

I don't know why/how I got this bubble?

Was the surface shiny?

Often the decals won't stay stuck if the surface is rough .

#6083 5 years ago

What grit do you sand the area before a decal for tooth?

So this is the tricky part. I like to sand with something for tooth otherwise I’m afraid the clear won’t adhere around the decal well. I usually use 6-800 grit. Maybe I used too rough.

It was stuck down good for 2-3 coats of clear BEFORE this bubble appeared.

#6085 5 years ago

I've seen this happen with too much heat from buffing or sanding.

#6086 5 years ago
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:

What grit do you sand the area before a decal for tooth?
So this is the tricky part. I like to sand with something for tooth otherwise I’m afraid the clear won’t adhere around the decal well. I usually use 6-800 grit. Maybe I used too rough.
It was stuck down good for 2-3 coats of clear BEFORE this bubble appeared.

I usually leave the areas to be decaled shiny, and then surgically sand around them with 400 grit for tooth.

#6087 5 years ago

Question that I seem not to get a good answer anywhere I check.

I am in the middle of a Secret Service restore and I need to see if I can polish the mylar that covers the playfield. It is dull and I will be putting alot into it for that area not to be brightened up to match.

I read about Treasure Cove, but all their stuff is sold out and I saw reviews on both sides of the fence. Then I looked at using Maguires polishing compounds and heard things like "will burn through the Mylar" and " no big difference"

Any help out there?
Mike

#6088 5 years ago
Quoted from packie1:

Question that I seem not to get a good answer anywhere I check.
I am in the middle of a Secret Service restore and I need to see if I can polish the mylar that covers the playfield. It is dull and I will be putting alot into it for that area not to be brightened up to match.
I read about Treasure Cove, but all their stuff is sold out and I saw reviews on both sides of the fence. Then I looked at using Maguires polishing compounds and heard things like "will burn through the Mylar" and " no big difference"
Any help out there?
Mike

The problem is that most of the stuff used in the last 40 years is not brand name "Mylar".

It's all different brands of "polyester film", with different thickness and different adhesives.

I just took a big sheet off a Xenon and it was as thick as a credit card (you know that did not come from Bally, lol)

I've also removed what appears to be clear "contact paper" that kids used to put on notebooks

So if the **Mylar** is already heavily worn, polishing with an abrasive polish will likely cut through.

If the **Mylar** is some low grade polyester, it might not take a polish at all.

-

Practice on a piece of new Mylar stuck to piece of plywood, sand it with 1500 grit, and see if you can bring it back to mirror gloss with auto polishing compounds.

This is your best case scenario.

Once you have those skills down, you know that if you can't get an old piece polished - it simply can't be done.

#6089 5 years ago

Does anyone have experience dealing with mylar damaged to this extent? I'm experienced at removing mylar, but have never dealt with anything this bad. I am thinking the damage is all in the mylar and this could clean up nicely. But I'd like second opinions. Having second thoughts about taking a chance buying this machine.

20171123_113456 (resized).jpg20171123_113456 (resized).jpg
20171123_113505 (resized).jpg20171123_113505 (resized).jpg
mylar-highlight (resized).jpgmylar-highlight (resized).jpg

#6090 5 years ago

This is a great thread. Thank you Vid for the efforts in detailing all of this.

I recently came across a Flintstones game with a challenge on the playfield. It looks like years ago there was a chip or wear. Clear coat or some sort of paint was used to seal it from further damage. Over the years, the coating has yellowed.

I am new at this, but chime in if anyone has suggestions. Here is my high level plan:

1. Remove the yellowed coating via careful sanding. I am afraid paint remover may cause more damage. (Input here on how to remove it would be appreciated.)

2. Attempt to airbrush chipped area using guidance from Vids posts (practicing first).

3. Clearcoat field.

If I mess this up, I think there is a coverup strategy. I have read where there are decals that are made to cover the movie actors with the old cartoon caracter images. I haven’t found the decal yet, but if it covers everything, it may be a fall back strategy if this cannot be fixed. New playfield would be last option.

Picture attached.

E1686B22-E82C-48BE-AE00-CA880364AE9C (resized).jpegE1686B22-E82C-48BE-AE00-CA880364AE9C (resized).jpeg
#6091 5 years ago
Quoted from Inahaz:

I recently came across a Flintstones game with a challenge on the playfield. It looks like years ago there was a chip or wear. Clear coat or some sort of paint was used to seal it from further damage. Over the years, the coating has yellowed.

It looks like it's either Polyurethane or Epoxy - both turn that color over the years.

You should figure out what it is first.

Try putting some mineral spirits on a tiny spot and see if it softens.

#6092 5 years ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

Does anyone have experience dealing with mylar damaged to this extent? I'm experienced at removing mylar, but have never dealt with anything this bad. I am thinking the damage is all in the mylar and this could clean up nicely. But I'd like second opinions. Having second thoughts about taking a chance buying this machine.

It could be mylar that someone tried to polish, or it really could be worn out bad.

Once you see it in person, you can drag your nail over it, Mylar has a crisp edge.

#6093 5 years ago

OK, soo...I'm doing a playfield swap for a friend. He bought this CPR playfield in January, and I have left it wrapped up, safely tucked away until I was ready to work on the game.

Took it out today as I'm getting close to being ready to start the swap, and wanted to pre-wax the PF.
Then I found cracking around 4 or 5 lower playfield inserts.
I'm assuming at this point it would be stupid not to add epoxy behind all the playfield inserts. My friend doesn't tend to be quite as obsessive over details as I am, but in my estimation, the most "correct" thing to do next would be to lightly scuff sand (grit?) and have it re-cleared, as I'm guessing the clear will just crack more once you start actually playing the game.

Thoughts?

BKINSERTS1 (resized).jpgBKINSERTS1 (resized).jpgBKINSERTS2 (resized).jpgBKINSERTS2 (resized).jpg
#6094 5 years ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

Does anyone have experience dealing with mylar damaged to this extent?

My fishtails was like that. As Vid said use your nail to decide if it is mylar or not. If it is use your preferred method to remove the novus 2 the playfield.
After use a flashlight to see any of the small bits left, they will be dull compared to the topcoat.
After that naphtha the playfield and flashlight each area as you go and hopefully all the little mylar bits will come to light one way or the other.

#6095 5 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

I'm assuming at this point it would be stupid not to add epoxy behind all the playfield inserts.

Yep, keep those inserts from moving.

Quoted from sethbenjamin:

but in my estimation, the most "correct" thing to do next would be to lightly scuff sand (grit?) and have it re-cleared, as I'm guessing the clear will just crack more once you start actually playing the game.

It hard to say if it will crack more.

Wood moves at a different rate than plastic, so it's pretty common to see those expansion gaps.

I'd scuff with 400 and clear it, if it were mine.

#6096 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'd scuff with 400 and clear it, if it were mine.

I figured that would likely be your counsel. I was really surprised what a thin clear layer they put on these CPRs, at least this one. (this is my first time working with one up close.) But then I suppose they're only doing one pass as opposed to three for a restoration project...

#6097 5 years ago

I am sure this has been asked a bunch...
Could I coat my playfeild with something like this?

http://www.bestbartopepoxy.com/table-top-epoxy/

It claims it will never yellow...
It would be so nice if it would work- it looks so easy...
Thanks Vid!

#6098 5 years ago
Quoted from sethbenjamin:

I was really surprised what a thin clear layer they put on these CPRs, at least this one. (this is my first time working with one up close.) But then I suppose they're only doing one pass as opposed to three for a restoration project...

Think about it this way, CPR can't give you a $600 clearcoat job, on a $700 playfield.

What they do give you, is a MUCH thicker clearcoat that Williams or Bally ever did, and a much CLEARER clear coat (Williams Diamondplate was milky/cloudy).

#6099 5 years ago
Quoted from ryan1234:

I am sure this has been asked a bunch...
Could I coat my playfeild with something like this?
http://www.bestbartopepoxy.com/table-top-epoxy/
It claims it will never yellow...
It would be so nice if it would work- it looks so easy...
Thanks Vid!

There is NOTHING easy about playfield restoration.

If there was, it would not cost $600 to get a "sheet of glass" clearcoat job.

Epoxy ALWAYS turns yellow. It's just the nature of the beast. Look at any table with the playing cards under it at your local bar using your cell phone light. The bar is dark, imagine how yellow it would be if it were exposed to light.

The manufacturer says: "Epoxy by nature is not UV protected and is not meant to be used outdoors, if used outdoors, it can yellow over time in direct sunlight and may delaminate over time." and "All epoxy by nature has a slight amber color to it" - Amber is worse than yellow, lol.

The directions also say that the wood should be sanded with 80 grit so the epoxy will stick, that might not leave any paint behind.

#6100 5 years ago

I built a Chesapeake Light Craft wooden kayak kit a few years back using the MAS super clear epoxy. I would much rather just shoot 2-pac than go through the process using the epoxy. 2-pac is much easier to work with!

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