(Topic ID: 35328)

Vid's Guide to Bulletproofing Williams System 3-7


By vid1900

7 years ago



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There are 865 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 18.
#301 4 years ago
Quoted from tonedef131:

Great thread. I'm going to be replacing the recommended caps and resistors on my F14 power supply shortly. I installed a Rottendog LED display already, so I'm not sure if I should change out Z2 and Z4 to run at 100V or not. Would this have any effect or benefit on and LED display?

Don't bother updating the high voltage supply.

In fact, pull the F1 fuse out of the high voltage side - parts can't catch fire if they don't have power.

#302 4 years ago

Can I post videos? I have a Hot Tip doing strange things when powered on and rather than trying to describe it, I thought I could post a 30 second video

#303 4 years ago

Sure, post WELL LIT videos.

I'd make them longer than 30 seconds; for best results.

Post to Youtube, then post link in thread.

1 week later
#304 4 years ago

Greetings gents!! Question, I have a Firepower and I would like all of the boards looked over, tested, and repaired. Could anyone here recommend members that are reputable repair sources for system 6?? Thank you!!

#305 4 years ago

sohchx, I can repair and test them. Wait is very short right now, I'll pm you.

#306 4 years ago

video didn't really have much to show so here is the description!

I have a "Hot Tip" (electronic) that is doing unpredictable things. The cpu and solenoid boards look like they have been replaced/repaired in the past (the battery has a new socket and a couple of the transistors appear to be new)

When I first got it, left kicker coil was on solid and its probably toast. I unsoldered it and left it for now.

When powered on, usually it comes up with the game over sound but even though I have set the switch's to have 10 games, I get zero and am unable to play. It will let me go into diagnostics via the cpu-board pushbutton though. But sometimes it comes up with no sound and all zeros on the display. Nothing works.

It occasionally does strange things by itself if left to sit. Every 30 seconds or so it will make some sounds and usually the display will change the number of credits left or the score of player 1 will count up by itself.

I ran through diagnostic mode, The cpu diags always pass (2 flashes,) after that test 1 (lamp) is good, test 2 (solenoid) works for most of them (a couple will not fire) but test 3 (switch) displays a lot of numbers (sometimes 5-8 numbers) - some of which I have visually checked to make sure they are not closed.

In some of the threads there is mention of capacitors going bad and causing strange behavior, does this sound like it? I am reluctant to start unsoldering caps at random just to check them but i will if I have to.

#307 4 years ago
Quoted from mark532011:

video didn't really have much to show so here is the description!
I have a "Hot Tip" (electronic) that is doing unpredictable things. The cpu and solenoid boards look like they have been replaced/repaired in the past (the battery has a new socket and a couple of the transistors appear to be new)
When I first got it, left kicker coil was on solid and its probably toast. I unsoldered it and left it for now.
When powered on, usually it comes up with the game over sound but even though I have set the switch's to have 10 games, I get zero and am unable to play. It will let me go into diagnostics via the cpu-board pushbutton though. But sometimes it comes up with no sound and all zeros on the display. Nothing works.
It occasionally does strange things by itself if left to sit. Every 30 seconds or so it will make some sounds and usually the display will change the number of credits left or the score of player 1 will count up by itself.
I ran through diagnostic mode, The cpu diags always pass (2 flashes,) after that test 1 (lamp) is good, test 2 (solenoid) works for most of them (a couple will not fire) but test 3 (switch) displays a lot of numbers (sometimes 5-8 numbers) - some of which I have visually checked to make sure they are not closed.
In some of the threads there is mention of capacitors going bad and causing strange behavior, does this sound like it? I am reluctant to start unsoldering caps at random just to check them but i will if I have to.

A lot of your issues sound like they would be resolved if your boards where bulletproofed per vid's guides. =D

Before messing with replacing IC sockets or components, start with this. Reflow the solder on the male connector pins on the two top right corner of the driver board (switches). The 40 pin interconnect is always suspect too. Relfow as needed.

For the displays, resolder the male MPU 9 pin connectors across the top side of the MPU.

1 week later
#308 4 years ago

Been working on getting all of my system 7 and 11's up to snuff on the power boards, replacing the caps and the high voltage sections, I'm running into a problem finding an economic solution to replace the 18000mfd 16v axial capacitor...

Vid, or anyone know of a non-expensive solution to replacing this cap?

some have suggested 15000mfd, but I don't know if thats safe

#309 4 years ago
Quoted from Chosen_S:

Been working on getting all of my system 7 and 11's up to snuff on the power boards, replacing the caps and the high voltage sections, I'm running into a problem finding an economic solution to replace the 18000mfd 16v axial capacitor...
Vid, or anyone know of a non-expensive solution to replacing this cap?
some have suggested 15000mfd, but I don't know if thats safe

12000uF to 18000uF radial or axial cap will work in that power supply. If you use radial, zip tie the cap in place and run a short length of insulated wire.

#310 4 years ago

http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=860

$2.50

Quoted from Chosen_S:

Been working on getting all of my system 7 and 11's up to snuff on the power boards, replacing the caps and the high voltage sections, I'm running into a problem finding an economic solution to replace the 18000mfd 16v axial capacitor...
Vid, or anyone know of a non-expensive solution to replacing this cap?
some have suggested 15000mfd, but I don't know if thats safe

#312 4 years ago

Thanks guys!!!

#313 4 years ago

adding a comment so I can find this and ask questions. Starting on a buddy's Joust soon

#314 4 years ago

Thanks Vid1900 for this blog. It helped with troubleshooting my Time Warp.

2 weeks later
#315 4 years ago

So, I have a real head scratcher of a driver board on the bench today!

It's from a black knight. Lots of socketed ICs, including all 3 pias

I bead blasted it to clean up some alkaline corrosion around the relay area, front and back.

New interconnect, headers, lamp resistors and sockets. Socketed ICs tested in another driver board, they are OK.

There's a short on the 5v rail somewhere that I can't find.

I pulled the first 10 pin interconnect header back out to make sure it isn't there

I pulled the 9 pin .156 header in the lower left corner of the board under there.

Attach it to a CPU, and it fails to boot. Not even a flicker, just locks up.

I hooked a 5v battery up to it, all 5v pins on the left side of the board measure 0, and the battery gets really hot.

Any ideas for pinpointing the source?

#316 4 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

So, I have a real head scratcher of a driver board on the bench today!
It's from a black knight. Lots of socketed ICs, including all 3 pias
I bead blasted it to clean up some alkaline corrosion around the relay area, front and back.
New interconnect, headers, lamp resistors and sockets. Socketed ICs tested in another driver board, they are OK.
There's a short on the 5v rail somewhere that I can't find.
I pulled the first 10 pin interconnect header back out to make sure it isn't there
I pulled the 9 pin .156 header in the lower left corner of the board under there.
Attach it to a CPU, and it fails to boot. Not even a flicker, just locks up.
I hooked a 5v battery up to it, all 5v pins on the left side of the board measure 0, and the battery gets really hot.
Any ideas for pinpointing the source?

John,

One method that I have used in the past to find shorts is to connect a variable lab supply with variable current limiting. If it is a 5V line, then set the voltage down to one volt no load. Set current limiting down to zero, then connect. Then turn up the current limit and watch the meter... keep the current below what the smallest trace will take for the boards you are testing...

I have actually "blown open" shorts that are hairline shorts using this method. If you turn up the current to the max that the traces can take, then you can use a thermal tracer to follow the temp of the traces... the fault path will be hotter than anything else. If your lucky, the short won't be under a component... but we are never lucky are we?

Chances are it is a stray solder ball or wire fray fragment lodged under a chip.

Good luck!

Mac

#317 4 years ago

Back in the module repair depot we used to have these board sized temp sensitive plastic sheets (kind of like a mood ring) that we would lay over the board and connect a power source and it would light up as the area got warm. Maybe something like that? Or a thermal camera?

Barring that, you are going to be cutting traces me thinks.

#318 4 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

So, I have a real head scratcher of a driver board on the bench today!
It's from a black knight. Lots of socketed ICs, including all 3 pias
I bead blasted it to clean up some alkaline corrosion around the relay area, front and back.
New interconnect, headers, lamp resistors and sockets. Socketed ICs tested in another driver board, they are OK.
There's a short on the 5v rail somewhere that I can't find.
I pulled the first 10 pin interconnect header back out to make sure it isn't there
I pulled the 9 pin .156 header in the lower left corner of the board under there.
Attach it to a CPU, and it fails to boot. Not even a flicker, just locks up.
I hooked a 5v battery up to it, all 5v pins on the left side of the board measure 0, and the battery gets really hot.
Any ideas for pinpointing the source?

Did it ever work for you, or did you get it like that?

Did you install the sockets, or another tech?

#319 4 years ago

Vid, it came in dead. My typical mode of operations is to replace header pins and sockets on these boards, along with the interconnect, so I did that, and it's still dead. I took it a step further and pulled all the sockets and new header pins and the 3 ICs that weren't already socketed. So, I have a bare board on the bench with a short that I can't find!

I even clipped all the little caps on each ic, thinking one could be shorted.

I spent all day smoking a pork shoulder and my eyes were starting to get real tired and dry, so I packed it in for the night.

I'll get back to it with fresh eyes tomorrow.

#320 4 years ago

Got a stronger supply?

Crank up the amps and see what glows.

#321 4 years ago

never mind the board, lets get back to the great sounding smoke pork shoulder?

#322 4 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

Vid, it came in dead. My typical mode of operations is to replace header pins and sockets on these boards, along with the interconnect, so I did that, and it's still dead. I took it a step further and pulled all the sockets and new header pins and the 3 ICs that weren't already socketed. So, I have a bare board on the bench with a short that I can't find!

I even clipped all the little caps on each ic, thinking one could be shorted.

I spent all day smoking a pork shoulder and my eyes were starting to get real tired and dry, so I packed it in for the night.

I'll get back to it with fresh eyes tomorrow.

Fresh eyes are good.

So if I understand you, ALL the ICs, headers and sockets are off the the board right now?

#323 4 years ago

There is a 100uF 5v filter, check that sucker out. Caps generally fail open, but maybe it is shorted. RUn a screwdriver along the entire 5v rail looking for a solder bridge. Wire brush the entire board and hope you knock a short off.

Are the PIAs hard soldered? Pull the ground pin out on each one and any chips still on the board. The switch matrix chips are not well protected from incoming shorts. Solenoid voltage could zap one out into a short circuit failure mode, i have seen them exploded out before.

#324 4 years ago

I found it after I set it aside for awhile.

Alkaline damaged boards always seem to be extra challenging. What looks like an easy clean up turns into a nightmare!

I bead blasted the corroded sections of this driver and rebuilt it, but unfortunately, the bead blaster removed the solder mask on some traces and that allowed an adjacent solder pad to short out to a trace - and look like it belonged that way!

image.jpg

A little braid, and we are back in business!

#325 4 years ago

Good find!

I would also use a razor and put a deep scratch in the board to keep the next solder job from jumping across.

-

If you like gadgets, this box changes tone as you get closer to the short in a circuit:

http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/72-11650

-

And if you would rather build than buy (click the black box, it's a PDF):

http://www.edn.com/design/pc-board/4434259/Short-circuit-tracer-finder-uses-low-power

DI5471sch.pdf

#326 4 years ago

Vid, can you list out what components are required to replace 3J1 and 3J2 for both the power supply board and the connectors?

I found this for 3J2, but I'm not familiar with that type of pin.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp

thanks,
-mof

#327 4 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Vid, can you list out what components are required to replace 3J1 and 3J2 for both the power supply board and the connectors?
I found this for 3J2, but I'm not familiar with that type of pin.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/search.asp
thanks,
-mof

09-18-5061 is the PC board male pins.

03-09-1064 is the female housing, although if you don't mind the browning, you can just replace the pins themselves.

02-09-1104 female pins for above

02-09-2103 male pins for above

#328 4 years ago

OK, so the male and female pins for the female connector are standard. But for the piece you mount on the board it has its own special pins that are built in. Then the female connector is special due to the shape.

So for a guy who already has a full collection of 0.93 parts -- I just need the new piece connected to the board and the new 6-pin female connector due to the shape. I already have the pins that will go inside the female connector.

Am I interpreting all this correctly?
Mof

#329 4 years ago

09-18-5061 is the PC board male pins grouped together in that polarized pattern.

03-09-1064 is the female housing that will accept the pins you already have.

#330 4 years ago

Can you recommend a resource which describes what voltages to expect and how/where to measure them on the power supply board?
thanks,
mof

Looking at a 2008 Clay guide online, I see what voltages to expect, but not where/how to measure them:

The "power supply" (that is, the transformer, the power supply board, and the backbox attached bridge rectifiers/filter capacitor) outputs the following 7 voltages:

+5vdc regulated logic power.
+12vdc unregulated, often called "unregulated 5 volts" by Williams, because on the CPU board the unregulated 12 volts gets knocked down to about 5 volts.
+18vdc lamp matrix power (for game controlled lamps).
+28vdc solenoid/flipper power.
+/- 100vdc score display power.
6.3vac General Illumination lamp power.
+50 volts DC (for flippers), Firepower2 and later, via an additional flipper power supply board.

#331 4 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Can you recommend a resource which describes what voltages to expect and how/where to measure them on the power supply board?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6/page/4#post-1634310

Click on the above .pdf.

It shows where to expect what voltages.

#332 4 years ago

Ok, I did a check on my Gorgar System 6, and got the following values:

TP results on the power supply board:

3J3, solenoids, 40 VDC
3J4, lamps, 22 VDC
3J5, logic, 5 VDC
3J5, display, 90 VDC (used the updated parts to drop this voltage -- expected)
3J6, logic, 5 VDC

So, most important, logic and displays are great.

I'm wondering about lamps and solenoids -- are 22 and 40 VDC ok?

(As for the brightness and power of the solenoids they all seem perfect when playing.)

thanks for your input...
-mof

#333 4 years ago

Coils and controlled lamps voltage has zero load.
So the voltage is a bit on the high side, as expected....

#334 4 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Coils and controlled lamps voltage has zero load.
So the voltage is a bit on the high side, as expected....

Thank you -- can someone elaborate a bit more about this response? (with respect to "having load" and which voltages should sometimes be a bit higher than normal?)
-mof

#335 4 years ago

When a coil activates it draws current.
Because of the current draw and resistance the voltage will drop a little.
But a coil isn't constantly activated....
That is why is zero load the voltage is a bit higher than normal.

The same goes for the 18/22 volts for the lamps too.
Try a measurement while the game is in attrack mode (with controlled lamps on).
Compare this measurement with the game in test mode (controlled lamps should all be off).
You will see the voltage fluctuating while the game is in attrack mode and steady in test mode.

#336 4 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Thank you -- can someone elaborate a bit more about this response? (with respect to "having load" and which voltages should sometimes be a bit higher than normal?)
-mof

Here would be a great experiment for you to explain that phenomenon:

Take any unregulated "wall wart" power adapter.

It might say it's output is 9VDC on the label.

Now if you put your meter on it, it will read 15 or maybe even 18VDC!

So you would assume that it is defective and would blow up your 9V equipment.

But, if you put a load on that wall wart, like a circuit or a power resistor, it will indeed read 9-10V

#337 4 years ago

Vid is correct.
Which is why it is called an "unregulated" power supply.

A regulated supply would have a ummmmm regulator in the circuit that would be watching the output and compensating for the load change and resultant drop.

The 12v supply in B/W games is a good example of an unregulated supply. When you add mods you need to watch the voltage so that you do not pull it down too far and cause weirdness.

#338 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Tony asks: "Hey Vid, I don't see those yellow capacitors (?) on my Power Supply, nor do I see them on the schematic. Do I need to update that?"
Williams had two caps (.22mfd) and two diodes (1N4001) that were used only on Hot Tip and Lucky Seven (as far as I can tell). After a while, they quit putting them on the boards at all.
So unless you have one those games, don't worry if you have them, or not.
If you do get one of those games, and are replacing the power supply board, remember to add them in.
9.jpg

Hey Vid, I have this board in my gorgar, which I am repairing, Is it the correct board for this game? The driver board was cooked from a miss matched wire connection (I already asked you about the results of this) This could be hacked together project machine so it would not surprise me if this was the wrong board.

I bought the WAN-HVP-KIT from great plains and replaced all parts but the transistors ( that replace the obsolete SDS-201 and SDS-202 transistors) and I am now I am getting no display and my F1 1/4 fuse is blowing. I also change out the yellow caps and replaced them with 450v 22uf caps. I did not have the recommended I did not have your recommended 15000f 35v, so I did 3 4700f 25v in parallel.

my kit came with 6 diodes 4 of which matched with ones the board, but the final 2 had different numbers than the ones near my one yellow cap ... I assumed great plains just put a compatible part in there and I installed them.

What have I done wrong? Are my 450v 22uf cap wrong for the yellow ones?

#339 4 years ago

Okay, I think I see what i did. the WAN-HVP-KIT had an extra set of diodes a pair of 1N4764 (100v) I mistakenly replace the 1N4001 diodes that were on this my old board which are 1A 50V. Now I need to try to find one of those on some old scrap boards.

1 week later
#340 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Or, if you want to, you can replace the 8 TIP42 lamp matrix transistors (Q63, 65, 67, 69, 71,73, 75 and Q77) with IRF9Z34N MOSFETs.

I just successfully completed this mod on my Firepower. Thanks so much for the info. Is there any mod to reduce temps from the lamp row drive resistors (R95, 100 etc.) that are also screeching hot?

#341 4 years ago

The MOSFET mod is a nice idea. But in this configuration the FET's are driven by a -18 Volts Vgs which is dangerously close to the absolute maximum rating of -20 Volts. I wouldn't do it this way. A 50/50 resistor divider would be very nice but is a bit impractical....

#342 4 years ago
Quoted from MarAlb:

But in this configuration the FET's are driven by a -18 Volts Vgs which is dangerously close to the absolute maximum rating of -20 Volts.

So what do you think would be the worst-case scenario with this mod in place?

#343 4 years ago

I had the unit powered up while replacing a light on my SS Hot Tip table, I dropped the table and the right flipper solenoid struck the metal bar on the cabinet and shorted - smoke and everything.
i checked the fuses, only the 7.5amp main fuse needed replacement. I've replaced the melted solenoid but there is no power to the flipper, the left one works ok however.

I don't see anything obviously burned, cracked or broken on the solenoid board around 2J12. Checking the schematics, it looks like the flipper path is pretty basic compared to the rest, could the flipper relay be partially dead and allow only one to work or is it more likely something else?

#344 4 years ago
Quoted from mark532011:

there is no power to the flipper, the left one works ok however.

So with your meter on DC and the black probe on the grounding braid and the red probe on a coil tab, you have zero volts?

#345 4 years ago

sadly yes. left side I have power, right side I don't. I thought since I blew the main fuse to the cabinet I might have burned a trace on the solenoid board but I don't see anything obvious. I am guessing I fried a component somewhere, just trying to trace backwards and find the culprit.

update...checking the schematic, there is a blue wire directly from the pf fuse to each flipper solenoid, so I checked voltage at each point and found I had a bad solder connection on the replaced solenoid (power when checked wire, no power when checked solenoid.) Reflow and all is ok now...whew!

Got a nice souvenir out of it:

blogger-image-534105234.jpg

3 weeks later
#346 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

We do ALL of our soldering from the back side (non component side) of the PC board.
I'm not going to turn this into a soldering tutorial, but I'll run you through the routine.
Turn your iron up hotter than normal because the end pins often have to be soldered into the large ground plane traces, and these act as big heat sinks. I run at 480° F, but if you are a beginner, use a lower temp until you know what you are doing.
Do all the thick ground plane and power plane traces first, with your hotter temp.
Press the iron firmly against the solder pad AND pin of the socket. Wait half a second after you see the pad face turn to liquid and then add your solder. Watch, the moment you see the solder puddle shrink for a second, move the heat to the next pad. When the puddle shrinks, the solder has flowed to the other side of the board. Go ahead and check. See how you just soldered both sides of the board at once? Nice job!
Once the heavy plane traces are done, lower your soldering iron temp and hit all the rest of the pins on the SIPs.
Check your work on the component side of the board and make sure each SIP pin is soldered on both sides. If you have to touch up a solder joint on the component side, you are going to be VERY thankful you used SIPs rather than closed sockets!
Use your meter set on the continuity mode (beep mode), and check EVERY socket pin to the place it runs to on the board. Don't take a shortcut here. Do every one.
Also check each adjoining socket pin against the next to make sure you did not accidentally make a solder bridge.
Clean the flux left from the solder with isopropyl alcohol and an old toothbrush. I know, you probably don't have to, but it is the sign of professional work.
12.jpg

Another marvellous super detailed guide. It's interesting, I learned such lot of things from your tutorial. Great work.

1 month later
#347 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Tony asks: "Hey Vid, I don't see those yellow capacitors (?) on my Power Supply, nor do I see them on the schematic. Do I need to update that?"
Williams had two caps (.22mfd) and two diodes (1N4001) that were used only on Hot Tip and Lucky Seven (as far as I can tell). After a while, they quit putting them on the boards at all.
So unless you have one those games, don't worry if you have them, or not.
If you do get one of those games, and are replacing the power supply board, remember to add them in.
9.jpg

I have a World Cup with the yellow caps and diodes. Since this game doesn't require them, I'm going to take them off rather than replace/leave them in.

#348 4 years ago

In reference to VID fusing the brideges I use these neat little gadgets.

http://pinballreplacementparts.com/products/product-0003

rectfuse.jpg

#349 4 years ago

Awesome thread.. Thanks to all who contributed ideas and tech info.. I had no idea there were so many fundamental flaws in my Black Knight.. As someone who had a house fire because of an electrical problem about 18 months ago, I know now I'm not going to leave the room with my BK plugged in at least until I get my fuse kit I just ordered! (No, the fire wasn't pinball related!)

-Steve

#350 4 years ago

I've made the Bridge Board for this kind of problem.
It does away with both bridges and the large capacitor and adds fuses and control leds for both voltages.
Available in the US via Big Daddy Enterprises and in Europe directly with me.
http://bigdaddy-enterprises.com/boards/boards-index.htm#newboards

Brug Bord 01 klein.jpg
http://home.kpn.nl/p.koch3/bridge_board.htm

Peter
www.inkochnito.nl

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