(Topic ID: 35328)

Vid's Guide to Bulletproofing Williams System 3-7

By vid1900

8 years ago


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There are 972 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 20.
#251 6 years ago
Quoted from chrisram22:

Is my PS board a system 7?

Post a CLEAR, FOCUSED and WELL LIT photo and let's see what you've got.

#252 6 years ago

okay here are two clear pictures of my power supply from a 1980 Black Knight. I am the person having random game resets during play. You mentioned on the other post if I am converting the IDC
to molex connectors and having to piggy back the wires to use heavier 20 gauge connectors. Where can I get those?

thanks again for your superior advise and willingness to share it

IMG_2285.JPG IMG_2286.JPG
#253 6 years ago
Quoted from chrisram22:

okay here are two clear pictures of my power supply from a 1980 Black Knight.

You have a System3 style power board there.

Not really a problem, just make sure you replace that big 12,000uf cap with an 18,000uf cap - to bring it up to Sys7 standards.

You also need to address the missing Molex connectors, J1 & J2 on the bottom of the board.

Some clown soldered the power wires right to the circuit board. (that means that the GI circuit might be unfused now; because the sys7 boards had the GI circuit added. Look carefully how this has been hacked.....make sure the GI has some sort of fusing.)

Repair this properly:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=98

#254 6 years ago
Quoted from chrisram22:

You mentioned on the other post if I am converting the IDC
to molex connectors and having to piggy back the wires to use heavier 20 gauge connectors. Where can I get those?

The 18 gauge is the heavier one. (the smaller the gauge#, the larger the wire size)

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=80

#255 6 years ago

His GI is fused on an aux fuse board in that case, with a separate GI relay mounted to the bottom of the back box. Early production machine, and same GI control circuit as Blackout.

#256 6 years ago

Hi, thanks for all the guidance in this guide. I have some questions.

I've rebuilt the power supply and checked the outputs/inputs to the cpu. On the 5v circuits good results. On the 3J6 12v output to 1j2, I get 12.6v on the output header pin at the ps board. All good, so I re-connect and check the input voltage at 1J2 and its 10.5v. I trace back to the IDC on 3J6 and at the IDC socket output, the voltage is 10.6v.

Is this a normal drop across the pin/socket of the IDC or should I replace the connector w a new Molex header and socket? And if so, should I replace all the IDCs?

Would the cpu not boot/run or gave issues because of that low voltage input? Just curious there as I am still to update the cpu board to Vid specifications. (Scanbes to replace and combo ROM mod to install).

Thanks!

#257 6 years ago
Quoted from HHaase:

His GI is fused on an aux fuse board in that case, with a separate GI relay mounted to the bottom of the back box. Early production machine, and same GI control circuit as Blackout.

So is this okay the way it is or do I need to address this also?

#258 6 years ago
Quoted from chrisram22:

So is this okay the way it is or do I need to address this also?

I'd recommend replacing the connectors regardless. Return it to the original design/spec so it's more easily serviceable and is compatible with other original or aftermarket boards, should you need to replace it down the road.

#259 6 years ago
Quoted from mtmellum:

Hi, thanks for all the guidance in this guide. I have some questions.
I've rebuilt the power supply and checked the outputs/inputs to the cpu. On the 5v circuits good results. On the 3J6 12v output to 1j2, I get 12.6v on the output header pin at the ps board. All good, so I re-connect and check the input voltage at 1J2 and its 10.5v. I trace back to the IDC on 3J6 and at the IDC socket output, the voltage is 10.6v.
Is this a normal drop across the pin/socket of the IDC or should I replace the connector w a new Molex header and socket? And if so, should I replace all the IDCs?
Would the cpu not boot/run or gave issues because of that low voltage input? Just curious there as I am still to update the cpu board to Vid specifications. (Scanbes to replace and combo ROM mod to install).
Thanks!

The drop actually comes from the load of the circuit when you connected the board back up. I have my recorded measurements when I rebuilt my PSU and I was getting 12.53V at 3J6 with everything disconnected. After I connected everything back up I was getting about 11V. Since the line is unregulated it can vary a bit and from all the reading I did it's completely normal.

I've also read elsewhere that rebuilding 3J6 to molex is virtually mandatory much in the same fashion as replacing Scanbe sockets on the CPU is. I think the big reason is that in particular there is only a single 12V wire that leaves that connector (pin 6) that powers the reset circuit. If it's a 35 year old single point of contact (opposed to three-point trifurcon) fatigued connector touching an equally old round header pin then having issues isn't too much of a stretch. Having since replaced this connector and header pins my boot issues have been eliminated where as before it booted when it felt like it.

#260 6 years ago
Quoted from chrisram22:

So is this okay the way it is or do I need to address this also?

If you restore the connectors, you can easily swap out the power supply with another unit for fast servicing.

Also, if you ever sell the game, many buyers would be terrified of that hack, wondering what other hacks have been done to the machine.

#261 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If you restore the connectors, you can easily swap out the power supply with another unit for fast servicing.
Also, if you ever sell the game, many buyers would be terrified of that hack, wondering what other hacks have been done to the machine.

I started looking into this yesterday. I think the original harness for J1 and J2 were hacked / cut for new connector receptacles. There is no female safety pin in J1's or J2's receptacle connector so the wiring looks to short to even reach the board anymore? the last two pictures are two grey wires male side and I am not sure if these are for the GI Relay or not, they are also hard wired to board.

I have a real mess here and would love to play this game sometime soon. Its really sad someone did this instead of the correct way.

IMG_2288.JPG IMG_2289.JPG IMG_2290.JPG
#262 6 years ago

I saw that in the first pictures, yeech.

Sometimes you can cut the zip ties and get a little extra reach on a group of wires, don't know if that will be enough for you though.

#263 6 years ago

Hi,

As a BIG BIG newbie, I Have been doing everything mentioned in this guide for my firepower restore.

I put in new sockets. Today I learnt a big lesson that I've not seen mentioned often enough! Never ever install a test rom or chip upside down! The little dot/dimple/divet at the base of the chip must go to the bottom!

Lesson learnt! New test rom ordered!

Vid, thanks again for everything you do in making this guides for us newbies.

#264 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Let's start with the 5v section, this always needs updating.
First and most importantly, the C15 12,000mfd 20v Capacitor has to be replaced 100% of the time (C10 is 18,000mfd 20v on Sys7).
Capacitors are designed to last 10-12 years and this one is 3x that old. The one in this picture had a 1989 date code, so it had already failed at least once.
If your game has more than two flippers, you will need to upgrade C15 to a 15,000mfd Cap. Use a Cap with a rating of at least 16v, but higher voltage Caps will last longer.
It can be hard to find a 12,000-15,000 Cap in the Axel style of the original, so you might have to use a Radial, or Snap-cap style.
-
Next the Diodes D7 and D8 are always burnt and stressed. These were undersized from Williams.
Replace these with beefy 6A4 Diodes.
-
Check all the fuse clips for tarnishing and corrosion, especially F5 here in the 5v section. Oftentimes when the voltage is too low, it is these cheap clips that Williams used.
For the 10 cents that they cost, don't bother trying to clean up the old ones, just replace them.
TIP: Put an old dead fuse in the new clips while you solder. It will keep the clips perfectly aligned.

2.jpg 122 KB

Can I upgrade C-15 on a system 6 Power supply to 18,000 uf 25V axel cap? I could not find a 15,000 uf cap. I do have 2 sets of flippers on my Black Knight and the machine continues to reset when both flippers are pushed simultaneously.

#265 6 years ago
Quoted from chrisram22:

Can I upgrade C-15 on a system 6 Power supply to 18,000 uf 25V axel cap? I could not find a 15,000 uf cap. I do have 2 sets of flippers on my Black Knight and the machine continues to reset when both flippers are pushed simultaneously.

Yes, you can.

The sys7 Black Knight power supply indeed uses an 18,000uf.

#266 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yes, you can.
The sys7 Black Knight power supply indeed uses an 18,000uf.

thanks, this whole reset issue is really annoying. It only happens when both flippers on my BK are pressed at the same time. I checked all the diodes and don't have any broken.

#267 6 years ago
Quoted from chrisram22:

thanks, this whole reset issue is really annoying. It only happens when both flippers on my BK are pressed at the same time. I checked all the diodes and don't have any broken.

Make sure your flippers have good diodes on them. An open or disconnected diode can let enough noise out that it will reset the cpu board.

#268 6 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

Make sure your flippers have good diodes on them. An open or disconnected diode can let enough noise out that it will reset the cpu board.

They are all connected but I am not positive they are all good. I guess I need to cut one end and check with MM? I also get a weird flutter of the upper left flipper sometimes, lower works good.
This is on a 1980 Black Knight machine.

#269 6 years ago

Just because a diode is unbroken, does not mean it is not flaky electronically.

Flipper diodes take a beating from being mounted to the flipper coil - ESPECIALLY if the coil tabs are installed next to the Coil Stop...

#270 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Just because a diode is unbroken, does not mean it is not flaky electronically.
Flipper diodes take a beating from being mounted to the flipper coil - ESPECIALLY if the coil tabs are installed next to the Coil Stop...

I think all of mine are mounted backwards, guess I will start there and mount all new diodes.
I bought some 14N004 diodes earlier today.

#271 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Just because a diode is unbroken, does not mean it is not flaky electronically.
Flipper diodes take a beating from being mounted to the flipper coil - ESPECIALLY if the coil tabs are installed next to the Coil Stop...

I have a similar problem. In checking all the coils on my firepower, I found the left flipper coil reading just 1.0 ohm with the diode disconnected. (The right flipper coil reads 15.8ohms). The flipper diode reads .572 which is less than .6. Does this mean the coil is no good? The driver board flipper control 2N4401 transistor (Q13) reads .646 on the left leg and .637 on the right leg, is this toasted too (it's over.6)? Should I replace the 1N4001 diode (D1) on the driver board flipper control when I do the transistor?

And lastly, When I look at the diodes on both of the flipper coils, the banded end is towards the return wire of the coil. The rest of the coils are band to the power side. Is this correct? Clays guides says that banded end of the diode should be to the power side of the coil. It looks like somebody has done a repair job on the flipper coils previously.

Any advice greatly appreciated!

#272 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yes, you can.
The sys7 Black Knight power supply indeed uses an 18,000uf.

This was the culprit of my problem. I installed a 18,000 uf 25v cap on C-15 today and the game no longer resets when both sets of flippers are engaged. Thanks again to everyone who suggested the many different things to look at to resolve this issue which apparently a lot of people encounter.

Replace the cap on C-15 if you are experiencing flipper related resets. Vid1900 knows his stuff for sure.

#273 6 years ago

Congrats on your repair, you are now officially a Pintech!

2 weeks later
#274 6 years ago

Dear vid,
In the spirit of future-proofing your pins...
Can you please explain why you recommend replacing most 30-40year old caps, but not the big blue one? (30,000 uf)

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/30000-uf-cap-substitute-for-bk?tu=vid1900

thanks,
mof

#275 6 years ago

vid not dead. long live vid

#276 6 years ago

Don't think I've ever seen a game with any symptom that the big blue is failing, nor have I ever seen any confirmed reports from anyone else that one has ever failed.

#277 6 years ago

For what it does (check it out in the "power wiring" diagram at http://www.firepowerpinball.com/ under FP documents>Wiring Diagrams), and the cost/hassle it would take I don't think warrants replacing unless something really is going wonky with your lamps. It seems to act as a "smoothing cap" seeing as it comes right after the lamp rectifier.

#278 6 years ago
Quoted from TimeWarp1:

For what it does (check it out in the "power wiring" diagram at http://www.firepowerpinball.com/ under FP documents>Wiring Diagrams), and the cost/hassle it would take I don't think warrants replacing unless something really is going wonky with your lamps. It seems to act as a "smoothing cap" seeing as it comes right after the lamp rectifier.

OK, good info.
-mof

#279 6 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Can you please explain why you recommend replacing most 30-40year old caps, but not the big blue one? (30,000 uf)

Besides pins that have caught fire, I don't think I've ever seen one of those caps go bad.

2 weeks later
#280 6 years ago

I need some help interpreting Leon's instructions about testing sound cards:

Pins: 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 38 = 5volt
Pins: 5 ,34, 40 = 4 volt
Pins: 9 to 20 , also 22, 23, 24, 25, 37 = 2 volt .
Pins: 21, 26, 27, 28, 29, 33, 36 = 0 volt.
Pins: 38 and 39 get a clock signal which measures 0,2 volt with a universal voltmeter.

If a voltages is wrong , check if its an output or input signal. If it's an output like an address line then the cpu IC is broken. If it's an input signal then check the schematics to see where it comes from.

Pin 40 ( reset) gets 5 volt through a delay circuit of 2 transistors. If it's missing then replace the transistors..

The above is the section on testing the CPU with the ROM out. It seems like he says that pin 38 should be both 5v alternating 0,2 also he says pin 40 should have 4v but later says it should have 5v.

Which is right? Also on my specific board, most of the pins that are supposed to be 0v (26-29)have 5v. Any guesses?

2 weeks later
#281 6 years ago

Hi - I have a 1979 Williams System 7 Laser Ball that is playing the wrong sounds. I replaced the sound card, but that didn't fix the problem. It used to play the sounds just fine, then all of sudden they were wrong. Some of them are still correct, but for some I now just get a ding, and some seem to be triggered by the wrong switches. After scratching my head for a bit, I was wondering if it was a problem with the driver board? Way back in this thread there was something about old connectors causing wrong sounds. I did check my connectors, but they are all old/original as far as I can tell. Any thoughts/suggestions much appreciated!

#282 6 years ago
Quoted from MrChuckles:

Hi - I have a 1979 Williams System 7 Laser Ball that is playing the wrong sounds. I replaced the sound card, but that didn't fix the problem. It used to play the sounds just fine, then all of sudden they were wrong. Some of them are still correct, but for some I now just get a ding, and some seem to be triggered by the wrong switches. After scratching my head for a bit, I was wondering if it was a problem with the driver board? Way back in this thread there was something about old connectors causing wrong sounds. I did check my connectors, but they are all old/original as far as I can tell. Any thoughts/suggestions much appreciated!

Laser Ball uses green flipper ROMs, that means it is system 6 software even if you are running a system 7 MPU. That is important to know because the sound signals are generated differently starting on system 7.

Your symptoms sound like you are missing a sound input signal. Most likely cause is a broken header pin on the driver board since you tried a new sound board.

sound signals should all be on 2J9.
http://firepowerpinball.com/downloads/DriverBoard.pdf

2 weeks later
#283 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

That is a useful idea.
When searching for a GI short, you often "divide and conquer" by splitting up those lines anyway, so you would be killing 2 birds with one stone.

Vid, What would Todd's 4-fused GI setup look like?

I see 4 yellow wires coming into the top of the 20a fuse, and 1 going out of the bottom?

Would you set up 4 fuse blocks, and then just have one yellow coming into each 5amp fuse? What's the best way to join up the bottom of the 4? Same wire for GI braid?

Curious: What are the unfused yellow wires on left?

-mof

201505_Gor-GI-fuse-idea.jpg

#284 6 years ago

Vid,

I have a Gorgar. Where the back box connects to the game there are several wire harness. Of them two are mated with the same number of pins and and design other than their color; one is a male/female WHITE the other a male/female BLACK. (This is clearly an area where mating segregation is required.) The guy that had the game before me mated the wires white / black and black / white. I have been told the driver board is blown.

Two question.

1. Are any other boards (or board components) damaged from this improper mating? or did just the driver board take the hit?

2. What will need to be replaced on the driver board? (the eight 3 watt 27 ohm resistors near the lamp matrix transistors (Q63, 65, 67, 69, 71,73, 75 and Q77) are fried away from the board so i will obviously have to replace them and do some solder flowing on the board. What do you think was likely also damaged when this thing got zapped with the wire crisscross?

#285 6 years ago
Quoted from wantdataeast:

This is clearly an area where mating segregation is required.

Oh my.

#286 6 years ago
Quoted from wantdataeast:

Are any other boards (or board components) damaged from this improper mating? or did just the driver board take the hit?

It depends on how long the power was applied, but..

On the CPU, you will probably need:

IC5 (7402)
IC7 (7404)
IC12 (7408)

On the Driver board you will probably need:

IC11 (PIA 6821)
IC17 (7406)

On the Sound bard you might need the amp IC

Crappy Williams had a dozen years to fix this problem, but it continued even into the system9 games....

#287 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Let's start with the 5v section, this always needs updating.
First and most importantly, the C15 12,000mfd 20v Capacitor has to be replaced 100% of the time (C10 is 18,000mfd 20v on Sys7).

Where can I find an 18,000mfd 20v capacitor? It is for a system 7 Black Knight. Does it have to be 18,000?

#290 6 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Vid, What would Todd's 4-fused GI setup look like?

You might ask Todd for a pic, but I would imagine it would be a 4 fuse block, splitting all 4 GI circuits into separate fuses.

There are probably 4 yellow wires tied together on one side of the fuse and 4 white with yellow stripe tied together on the other side of the fuse.

4 block.jpg
#291 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

You might ask Todd for a pic, but I would imagine it would be a 4 fuse block, splitting all 4 GI circuits into separate fuses.
There are probably 4 yellow wires tied together on one side of the fuse and 4 white with yellow stripe tied together on the other side of the fuse.

4 block.jpg

Looking at my pic, I just have one yellow on the south side -- does that mean I just connect it, and then run a braid across the other 3 lugs?
-mof

#292 6 years ago
Quoted from Talon:

For the digikey I would just solder to the terminals correct?

Yes.

I did not do a real search, I'm sure they have an Axial model too.

#293 6 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Looking at my pic, I just have one yellow on the south side -- does that mean I just connect it, and then run a braid across the other 3 lugs?
-mof

Where does that one yellow lead to?

#294 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Where does that one yellow lead to?

Will have to check later.
-mof

#295 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yes.
I did not do a real search, I'm sure they have an Axial model too.

Great. Appreciate the help Vid. Thanks.

#296 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Where does that one yellow lead to?

Yellow wire is GI in a WMS head. At the fuse is where the split off the strands, which is really dumb idea to try and solder four big wires on fuse holder lug... anways. One side goes the transformer, then the four lines is two to the PF, one to the head, and one for the coin door.

Todd is probably individually fusing each strand which makes sense and is easier to solder.

Quoted from mof:

Looking at my pic, I just have one yellow on the south side -- does that mean I just connect it, and then run a braid across the other 3 lugs?
-mof

yes. I would just strip some appropriate gauge wire and feed with through the solder lugs and solder.

#297 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Where does that one yellow lead to?

Quoted from barakandl:

Yellow wire is GI in a WMS head. At the fuse is where the split off the strands

I know where it leads to, lol.

I was asking Mof as a "leading question".

.....If the wire now connects to the single fuse, it would connect to all 4 fuses if the GI were to be split up into it's individual components....

#298 6 years ago

Nevermind, you already answered my question and I missed it the first time through.

#299 6 years ago

I have a space shuttle with a lamp matrix column out (IJ7- column 3? I think). Actuallythe bulbs in this column are burnt out. Wwhen i replace them the bulb burns really bright and stays on even when it shouldnt. I am assuming replacing the transistors and resistors and new IJ7 connector as vid described should fix this and it needs to be done for all on the IJ7 connector anyway. Anything else to check before i order considering what the game is doing? Thanks

#300 6 years ago
Quoted from smailskid:

I have a Space Shuttle with a lamp matrix column out (IJ7- column 3? I think). Actuallythe bulbs in this column are burnt out. Wwhen i replace them the bulb burns really bright and stays on even when it shouldnt. I am assuming replacing the transistors and resistors and new IJ7 connector as vid described should fix this and it needs to be done for all on the IJ7 connector anyway. Anything else to check before i order considering what the game is doing? Thanks

Your have a column driver problem. It is probably the main driver transistor. They pulse 18v fast enough it comes out around 6v average. If it is stuck on and not pulsing, it will smoke the lamps in short order. Using a DMM and/or probe, you can figure out where the pulsing stops.... it is probably the main and largest transistor (tip41c or 42c i think it is)

Andrew

There are 972 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 20.

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