(Topic ID: 35328)

Vid's Guide to Bulletproofing Williams System 3-7


By vid1900

6 years ago



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There are 803 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 17.
#201 4 years ago

Hello Vid,

Do you have any advice specific to System 9 games? I just acquired a Space Shuttle, which seems to boot and run normally with no obvious errors. But I know it's not a matter of "if", but "when" things crop up.

I have already done the rectifier fuse mod. Previous-owner botched a battery holder install with marble-size blobs of solder, and I'll have to clean some corrosion in the ground area... not too worried there yet.

I guess my main question is, how to determine what the "safe substitute" components are. I want to change the lamp matrix resistors as mine are rather... mesquite. I've recapped and rehabbed electronics including tube hi-fi's before so I'm familiar with the 1-for-1 process. And I understand Ohm's law to a point as far as some subs go (after all, those hi-fi components required some non-like subs)... but I'm not an EE so changing "this value for that one..." or "trade that transistor for this specific MOSFET option A or B"... how do you know it's better and/or safe?

Do you have any System 9 specifics to watch out for, or will most of this System 7 stuff apply?

Thank you for your guides. I've read a few of them and the playfield one inspired me to go a bit further on mine than I ever intended....

#202 4 years ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

I'll have to clean some corrosion in the ground area... not too worried there yet.

I'd clean that before it spreads.

Quoted from goingincirclez:

I guess my main question is, how to determine what the "safe substitute" components are. I want to change the lamp matrix resistors as mine are rather... mesquite. I've recapped and rehabbed electronics including tube hi-fi's before so I'm familiar with the 1-for-1 process. And I understand Ohm's law to a point as far as some subs go (after all, those hi-fi components required some non-like subs)... but I'm not an EE so changing "this value for that one..." or "trade that transistor for this specific MOSFET option A or B"... how do you know it's better and/or safe?

Much of the Sys9 stuff is the same as Sys3-7, so you can follow most of that.

Much of the power supply is the same, so new caps, diode to drop display voltages.

The GI connectors on the power supply are usually toasted, so you almost KNOW those need to be addressed.

#203 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The GI connectors on the power supply are usually toasted, so you almost KNOW those need to be addressed.

Heh, turns out mine was replaced with the supply from a Comet - I think that's a Sys11. There's no connector as the wires go straight to into the PCB. It works, but looks odd as the GI harness connector has two leads, but the mate from the PS has 4. I'm not real pleased with how they hacked that either. But it's obviously worked for a lonnnnnng time, based on what I heard from the PO.

I definitely intend to rehab the power section. My game has 5 of the plasma displays, but only one is its original, and the driver board was replaced too - making the display section a 5-game Frankenstein! Hey, if it works it works. For now. I'd like to keep it that way.

I have a cart filled of basics you covered from GreatPlains. At a glance of my setup, is there anything else that sticks out to you, before I order?

Boards-879.jpg
1 week later
#204 4 years ago

I didn't listen to vid and my Millionaire Pin started on fire today. The bridge rectifiers weren't fused and they started on fire and started to fuse together. Burnt wires from the transformer up to the BR.

#206 4 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

I didn't listen to vid and my Millionaire Pin started on fire today. The bridge rectifiers weren't fused and they started on fire and started to fuse together. Burnt wires from the transformer up to the BR.

That sucks!

There is that Williams quality engineering again.

#207 4 years ago
Quoted from lordloss:

I didn't listen to vid and my Millionaire Pin started on fire today. The bridge rectifiers weren't fused and they started on fire and started to fuse together. Burnt wires from the transformer up to the BR.

Sorry to hear that. You are not the only one who has been "putting off" putting the safety fuses in.
-mof

#208 4 years ago

I put my safety fuses in today....

#209 4 years ago
Quoted from mof:

Sorry to hear that. You are not the only one who has been "putting off" putting the safety fuses in.
-mof

I want to say I wasn't putting it off, but I was. Even only having it for a week and not doing it is putting it off.

#210 4 years ago

It's literally only approximately a $5 or $6 mod that uses common parts available almost anywhere. And one of the easiest to do since everything is in easy reach.

I did mine immediately after acquiring the machine, and before I did anything else. At least now if my machine catches on fire, I'll have small comfort that it was NOT from something I could have easily prevented.

I know sometimes it's not always convenient to run across town or the hardware store or whatever, but at the very least this mod should be REQUIRED before you ever place a single order and/or spend money on any other part.

Now the labels, though? That's another matter. Labels are a PITA. I blame my wife and the mess in her cra(p)ft room, losing the labelmaker again...

#211 4 years ago

OK, time for me to come by hat in hand and ask how stupid was I, and what should I prepare for...

Long story short, while waiting on pf clear to cure and other things, I did the MPU transistor and zero-ohm resistor mod for the lamp matrix, as detailed several pages back. Everything went really well: my solder connections on the mount pads beneath the board were as quick, clean, and good-looking as the factory.

Trouble is, when I looked at the *topside* of the board, it didn't seem like there were good clean solder mounds on all the pads under all the transistors. I probably didn't have enough flux in spots, or rushed myself trying not to have heat applied for too long, etc.

So I tried to rectify this. And I did, except... well there are a ton of transistors in close proximity there, on a Sys9 board. I had my iron dialed up to ~550 deg. I think I probably got too close for comfort on those transistors, especially that 3rd row, sandwiched between two others...!

I didn't really touch anything, at least not to where it scorched or melted stuff. But I've heard horror stories about how sensitive those components can be....

...it will be a while before I can test this in the machine. What's the worst that would happen if a few got cooked? Is there a way to check them outside the machine? Or should I bite the bullet and order a stash of spares?

#212 4 years ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

Is there a way to check them outside the machine? Or should I bite the bullet and order a stash of spares?

Get your meter out and test them in Diode mode.

If one reads differently than the others - replace it.

#213 4 years ago

550 is too cold for those big pads and leads in my opinion. I solder way hotter than that, but I typically use a fine tip. 750 to 850f.

#214 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

550 is too cold for those big pads and leads in my opinion. I solder way hotter than that, but I typically use a fine tip. 750 to 850f.

Yeah, it's frustrating: everything I read says to use the lowest heat possible and that makes sense. But in practice it's never quite that simple and seems like there is a price of tradeoff: apply lower heat for a longer time until you get good flow, etc... OR use nuclear fusion so you get quicker results? Which is worse?

Good flux helps and I used what seemed like appropriate amounts... a quick touch of the iron and I had a nice shiny silvery puddle within a second or two, sealing the thru hole while looking as good as factory with no slop. Sometimes I had to touch up the top-side of the board, which was easy enough with radial components. That transistor bank just packed everything in too tight. I will probably get a finer tip after this.

It seems too, that the procedure for testing the MOSFETs I used to replace the transistors, is not the same as a generic transistor. Always new things to learn.

#215 4 years ago

Smaller tips have less area to transfer heat. Use the largest one that will fit the pad you are working on.

The more skilled you become, the higher the heat you will tend to use, lol.

You want to lean to solder so you DON'T have to touch up the top of the board. When your puddle forms, keep heat on both the leg and the board for an extra second- you will see a little throb where the solder climbed to the topside of the board. Start watching for it (helps to use a magnifier lamp if you are over 35.)

MagnifyingLamp.jpg
#216 4 years ago

Using lower heat for a longer time period is exactly the opposite of what you want. The longer heat is applied, the further into the component that heat is able to soak. A hotter solder temp allows you to get the joint finished faster, and the heat doesn't penetrate as far into the part. Too hot is bad too, you need to be hot enough to get the job done fast, but cool enough that you aren't going to scorch the board. I solder at 700, and desolder at 800, both for lead free and lead. Watch for the 'slump' when it goes up the barrel and then take the heat off. 3-4 seconds tops per joint unless it's on a heavy power or ground plane.

Pace Worldwide has some fantastic videos on youtube for solder instruction. The cheezy 8mm era videos may LOOK dated, but the techniques and instruction are still perfectly applicable today. The guy from the mid 1990's at his desk is equally recommended, a bit less droll too with more good video of actual solder application. I recommend watching both series.

I'm also a big proponent of using the correct flux. If you don't mind cleanup, RA is the best performer, but there's a lot of good no-cleans out there too. Water soluble works very well, but if you don't clean the board enough it's also the most corrosive over time.

-Hans

#217 4 years ago
Quoted from HHaase:

3-4 seconds tops per joint unless it's on a heavy power or ground plane.

That's pretty much what I was shooting for, and happily most of them were more in the 2-3 second range once I got in the zone. The rest of your and Vid's advice makes sense. The "top surface touch-ups" were mostly incidental - between the MPU and power boards, I easily shattered my record for most soldering in one session so I was bound to have a couple or five of those.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And so now the hopefully, tentatively good news: pulled the MPU board and tested the transistors. In the matrix I was concerned about, none of them tested failed or open, and all of them tested at the exact same values (give or take .005). So I take that to mean either 1) There's no problem after all and I'm just being my usual overly-cautiously-paranoid self... or 2) I am SO FRIGGING AWESOME that I fried ALL them in the EXACT SAME MANNER OF DEGREES....

*ahem* Honestly I'm not sure. Hopefully it's #1.

And get this: while at it, I tested all the other transistors, and found a few flaky ones I never even touched. Ha! I would not have thought thar be dragons. So, can anyone tell me, are TIP122's still the proper and available replacement, or is there an "upgrade" part I should substitute for those?

Thanks again for all the help...

#218 4 years ago

TIP102's are the hot ticket these days. 122's do still work if that's what you have on hand, closer to factory value.

-Hans

#219 4 years ago

On my Taxi, I'm replacing the lamp matrix transistors to MOSFETs, and am trying to put jumper wires in where the cement resistors used to be. It says that you used 16 gauge wire, but I can't even get 18 gauge to fit in those holes, let alone 16. How do you go about making sure the wires you attach stay securely connected? I'm using stranded - do you use solid instead?

#220 4 years ago

If you are using stranded, use 18 gauge

#221 4 years ago

Yeah, I can't get it in there, no matter how tightly I wind it. I smash it down, and 1/3 of the wire ends up mushrooming out. It doesn't look nearly as clean as your picture does, and you're using 16-gauge.

#222 4 years ago

The through holes are of a smaller diameter on system 11 than system 3-7. 22 gauge is fine. Solid core wire is probably a better choice in this application but it really doesnt matter.

#223 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

FIREPROOFING SYSTEM 3-11 POWER SUPPLIES.
Whenever you hear someone boasting about "Williams Quality", you automatically know that they have no idea what they are talking about

LOL

#224 4 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

The through holes are of a smaller diameter on system 11 than system 3-7. 22 gauge is fine. Solid core wire is probably a better choice in this application but it really doesnt matter.

I found some solid-core copper wire in my Wire Bag that I can use. It looks to be either 22 or 20 gauge.

#225 4 years ago
Quoted from HHaase:

TIP102's are the hot ticket these days.

I agree.
Got a nice little supply of these as they work in just about any application and are not going to burn up.

#226 4 years ago

How would I fix bad traces and missing pads from a very bad hack job?
By the way, great job vid! I learned a lot.

#227 4 years ago
Quoted from Pin-one:

How would I fix bad traces and missing pads from a very bad hack job?
By the way, great job vid! I learned a lot.

Let's see a pic of what you have.

There are a few solutions.

#228 4 years ago

TIP102's are the hot ticket these days.

I had this argument with a well know repair guy once about why Bally selected the Darlington that they did. If fused correctly the transistor had an interesting feature. They would crack and go open in most cases upon failure. That came from Bally Distributor Service School in 1982. Williams was similar with it's "specially selected" TIP122. I know many of you have seen that term.

What was so good about that? Didn't blow holes in the circuit board very often, even when slightly over fused. Of course not everything is perfect in this world and sometimes that little "not-designed" plus did not happen. But many times in the field I replaced those original Darlingtons and there was no board damage.

A TIP102 will stay on longer because of it's current carrying ability so if it is over fused things may get ugly. I've repaired more of those damaged boards since everyone started using TIP102's. Double check your fusing.

Just a little history for what it's worth.

#229 4 years ago

Same with leaving the small resistors in a tube amp.

They will burn out upon tube failure, rather than kill a winding or something.

#230 4 years ago

image.jpg See on the top left. This is the 40 pin connector. Most of the connectors have been replaced. I've performed some board repairs but never messed up a pad or trace. My Time Warp needs a lot of help. I'm just trying to bring it to life.

image-905.jpg
#231 4 years ago

40 pin looks like it could be new.

I don't see the lifted pads.

#232 4 years ago

The two through holes on the left side off the 40 pin. It looks like the pad is missing between the front and back of the board. Hard to get a good pic of it. Been reading a lot about board repairs but don't see anything on how to repair the pads and traces.

#233 4 years ago
Quoted from Pin-one:

The two through holes on the left side off the 40 pin. It looks like the pad is missing between the front and back of the board. Hard to get a good pic of it. Been reading a lot about board repairs but don't see anything on how to repair the pads and traces.

The person who soldered p39 and 40 of the interconnect did not transfer enough heat and the solder did not flow through to the top side. In reality this is not a big deal as long as the solder is good on other side of the board.

Someone worked on that board in the past. Bunch of the header pin wafers look new.

#234 4 years ago

Yes the board has been worked on. I bought the pin from a guy in Polaris. He said it just stopped working during play. GI lights are all that work. I bought it as a non working machine. I will start a new thread with my troubleshooting. Look forward to all the Pinside help.

#235 4 years ago
Quoted from Pin-one:

GI lights are all that work.

Check your voltages on the PS board, and go from there.

3 weeks later
#236 4 years ago

This thread has been super useful! Got any hints to eliminate speaker hum in a system 9? I already recapped the power supply and made sure all the screws are present and tight.

2 weeks later
#237 4 years ago

Vid -- Todd has a very interesting idea at 3:33 in... What are your thoughts on this bullet proofing idea?

He suggests removing the single 20a fuse for the lamps, and install 4 individual 5a fuses for each line.

-mof

#238 4 years ago

@ vid1900, what do you think of my Bridge Board?
A very nice replacement board for the big capacitor, bridge rectifiers, and adding both fuses.
It even fits (9 out 10 times) on the old screw holes from the bridge rectifiers.
Take a look on my website: http://home.kpn.nl/p.koch3/
You can order a Bridge Board at Big Daddy Enterprises.
European customers can order directly with me (via e-mail).
Brug Bord 01 klein300.jpg

Peter
www.inkochnito.nl

#239 4 years ago
Quoted from mof:

What are your thoughts on this bullet proofing idea?

He suggests removing the single 20a fuse for the lamps, and install 4 individual 5a fuses for each line.

That is a useful idea.

When searching for a GI short, you often "divide and conquer" by splitting up those lines anyway, so you would be killing 2 birds with one stone.

#240 4 years ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

@ vid1900, what do you think of my Bridge Board?

Looks like a great idea.

I'll have to try one out sometime and do an installation review.

#241 4 years ago

Wanted to post in this thread though I will likely make a video and post in another thread a technique I've been using for removing ic socket pins when doing the bullet proofing in Williams/Stern/Bally boards with the crap sockets. Even with a Hakko 808 and care taken, the first couple Bally MPUs I replaced sockets on I found myself struggling with a couple or three traces getting pulled. The traces on these boards are very thin and easy to pull. I successfully repaired the traces with jumpers but wanted to find a better way. As most know, adding fresh solder usually makes removal easier.

What I've been doing is pulling the case as normal, then adding solder to each pin from the top (component side). Then, I use the soldering iron as both heating element and hook placing the tip inside the curl of the pins and when they heat up the iron can pull the pins without ever touching the board. It is cleaner, quicker, and less likely to damage the delicate traces.

1 month later
#243 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

That 5A-9247 chip is really just a 50 cent 74LS02, so we cut it and the .01 uf capacitor out.
Why not just "clean" off the corrosion? Because we can't clean the back of the chip legs can we? We can't clean what we can't reach.
We can't bulletproof a game if we leave corrosion eating up our board.

8.jpg 60 KB

Hi Vid,

Do we replace the removed chip and capacitor ?

Or do the mosfet mods take care of this?

Thanks!

#244 4 years ago
Quoted from mtmellum:

Hi Vid,
Do we replace the removed chip and capacitor ?
Or do the mosfet mods take care of this?
Thanks!

Yes, replace the chip with a 74LS02, and the cap with a .01uf.

Make sure you put the chip in facing the correct way.

#245 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Here are the two Rectifiers we need to fuse.

Note that one has 2 leads of Red wire coming from the Transformer, and one has 2 Blue leads.

Don't mix them up!

If you for some reason pulled all the wires off of one of the Rectifiers, note that the AC (2 Red or 2 Blue) from the Transformer goes to the 2 lugs marked with the ~ symbol. The other 2 lugs are marked + and -.

Here I removed the Transformer for clarity, but you won't have to.

Hey Vid,
Does it matter which of either the blue or the red wires you take off the rectifier . Is it the same color wires for my F14 ? If as long as i dont use any of the wires connected to the plus or minus sides of the rectifiers, am i good ?

#246 4 years ago

Oh, speaking of rectifiers: my refurbed / restored Space Shuttle has been getting played to death with no issues - including a solid 7 hour stretch during a party I just hosted. I have no doubt that's due to Vid's advice, well taken.

So while cleaning the machine after all this fun, I noticed one of my rectifier fuses is looking a little worn: lightly singed, but intact and not misshapen. But the other fuse looks clean as the day I installed it. Both are 8A SB.

I take that as a warning symptom... what should I check? Or is it simply the associated rectifier going bad?

#247 4 years ago
Quoted from SUPERBEE:

Hey Vid,
Does it matter which of either the blue or the red wires you take off the rectifier .

As long as you are using either wire from the AC side (the rectifier is often marked with ~ on the AC sides) you can use either wire.

#248 4 years ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

So while cleaning the machine after all this fun, I noticed one of my rectifier fuses is looking a little worn: lightly singed, but intact and not misshapen. But the other fuse looks clean as the day I installed it. Both are 8A SB.

I take that as a warning symptom... what should I check? Or is it simply the associated rectifier going bad?

Replace the fuse, it could just be a crummy one.

If it happens again, then measure the current with your meter and see how much you are drawing.

#249 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

As long as you are using either wire from the AC side (the rectifier is often marked with ~ on the AC sides) you can use either wire.

Thank you sir.

2 weeks later
#250 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Looking at an example board here, we see that nothing is labeled from Williams.
Not the connectors, not the fuses; only the polarity of the diodes and capacitors are marked on the board.

1.jpg 258 KB

Quoted from vid1900:

Looking at an example board here, we see that nothing is labeled from Williams.
Not the connectors, not the fuses; only the polarity of the diodes and capacitors are marked on the board.

1.jpg 258 KB

Post edited by chrisram22: correction

Vid, this is just like the power supply I have in my Black Knight but it does not look like the one in the schematics (blue cover) from planetary pinball. Is my PS board a system 7? I ordered a system 7 cap rebuild kit from BDE and am not sure if its the correct parts for this rebuild?

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