We're back!

After a disaster in our datacenter took down our server, we are now running Pinside on a brand new server. However, things may not work as expected as we are still polishing the playfield and adjusting some switches! We might be switching to maintenance mode a few times. Please see this forum topic for more info.

(Topic ID: 35328)

Vid's Guide to Bulletproofing Williams System 3-7


By vid1900

8 years ago

Topic Heartbeat


Topic Stats

  • 969 posts
  • 184 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 31 days ago by ibis
  • Topic is favorited by 570 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

There are 969 posts in this topic. You are on page 19 of 20.
#901 10 months ago
Quoted from shaub:

I'm working on a System 6 machine and I added the fuses to the Bridge Rectifiers. I have the solenoid bridge rectifier 8A fuse blowing after I play for a bit. What should I be checking?

Which game?
Does it have magnets?

#902 10 months ago
Quoted from shaub:

I'm working on a System 6 machine and I added the fuses to the Bridge Rectifiers. I have the solenoid bridge rectifier 8A fuse blowing after I play for a bit. What should I be checking?

So I removed the wires and tested the BR, it tested as good. In attract mode, I measured the AC voltage at the BR at 29V and the DC voltage at 35V. My understanding is that it should be 25.5VAC and about 28VDC.

#903 10 months ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Which game?
Does it have magnets?

It's Scorpion

#904 10 months ago
Quoted from shaub:

So I removed the wires and tested the BR, it tested as good. In attract mode, I measured the AC voltage at the BR at 29V and the DC voltage at 35V. My understanding is that it should be 25.5VAC and about 28VDC.

That's fine, transformers are a relatively imprecise item so it's normal for them to not be spot on.

#905 10 months ago
Quoted from shaub:

It's Scorpion

The instruction booklet calls for a 15A SB fuse for F4 on the power supply.
That would mean the before the bridge rectifier will also have to be 15A SB.
I think it's rather high, but logical.
An 8A fuse would get hot during game play and will eventualy blow at one point.
Nothing wroung, just too low for 4 flippers.

#906 10 months ago

Sorry to butt back in but on my stellar wars with the missing transformer. I got new transformer in, new bridge rectifiers, voltages all test good at power supply output. I have 4.9 volts coming out and if I plug the mpu and/or driver board in that drops down to about .5 volts

1 week later
#907 10 months ago

Ok I found my first issue and fixed it, weak solder joint on the 12v on power supply. I fixed that and now TP1 on mpu has 12v and 9 has 5v as required. The top led cane on on the mpu.

I took the driver board off and soldered on a new 40 pin plug and touched up solder on male side. Reconnected and now both leds come on with nothing on score displays. I don’t have any batteries in yet

#908 10 months ago
Quoted from Armyaviation:

Ok I found my first issue and fixed it, weak solder joint on the 12v on power supply. I fixed that and now TP1 on mpu has 12v and 9 has 5v as required. The top led cane on on the mpu.
I took the driver board off and soldered on a new 40 pin plug and touched up solder on male side. Reconnected and now both leds come on with nothing on score displays. I don’t have any batteries in yet

Did you replace both sides of the 40 pin? Leaving the old, round pins on the male side isn't good.

You need to reflow solder or replace each and every header pin on every board.

When you have the game on and there is nothing on the score displays, look at different angles into the displays to see if there is any orange glow at all. If not, CAREFULLY measure the high voltage supplies to the displays.

#909 10 months ago

So before I changed to 40 pin, I would only have the top led, if I cycled the power switch fast, the displays did come one for a bit then off, and the led changed to the bottom one. Now both leds come on. I did reflow solder on all of the male pins

#910 10 months ago
Quoted from Armyaviation:

So before I changed to 40 pin, I would only have the top led, if I cycled the power switch fast, the displays did come one for a bit then off, and the led changed to the bottom one. Now both leds come on. I did reflow solder on all of the male pins

Both LEDs on indicated a CMOS failure. But until you replace the male pins of the 40 pin, you are chasing a ghost.

#911 10 months ago

Reflowing Solder on them is not good enough

#912 10 months ago

Ok, when I first power on the game both leds flash then go off, no displays. If I cycle the power switch both leds come on and stay on. No displays.

I removed the driver board from the mpu but left the board plugged in just pulled away from mpu and the relay on the driver board clicked and all the solenoids on the playfield energized for a second then off

#913 10 months ago

This chip on the driver board also looks like it has been resoldered and not a very good job of it

1CF86E5A-CBE8-4140-836C-C4BA804C8C49 (resized).jpeg
#914 10 months ago

Gonna have to send my boards off... I noticed the rom chips heating up

2 months later
#915 8 months ago
Quoted from exflexer:

In reference to VID fusing the brideges I use these neat little gadgets.
http://pinballreplacementparts.com/products/product-0003

[quoted image]

I’m considering ordering these for the Flash machine I just acquired. Seem like a good “plug and pray” upgrade instead of cutting wires and mounting fuse blocks. Supposedly they bolt right in where the original rectifiers went.

3772322C-7934-418A-A6D8-C9990E7D9F72 (resized).jpeg
#916 8 months ago

You don't need to cut any existing cabinet wires to install fuses

Quoted from Stephan28:

instead of cutting wires

#917 8 months ago
Quoted from Jigs:

You don't need to cut any existing cabinet wires to install fuses

I think he is referring to the dual bridge board that a lot of people use. You do need to chop off the ends of the wires for that.

Nice to see someone make one with the .250" terminals to match what is on the original bridge.

#918 8 months ago
Quoted from Stephan28:

I’m considering ordering these for the Flash machine I just acquired. Seem like a good “plug and pray” upgrade instead of cutting wires and mounting fuse blocks. Supposedly they bolt right in where the original rectifiers went. [quoted image]

That should go right in place of the original bridge and looks like a good solution. I usually just install a standard fuse holder nearby, plug one of the wires from the transformer into that, then make a short jumper with .250 terminal to plug into the original bridge. In-expensive and accomplishes the same thing.

One thing to watch out for is many games have those connections soldered after they were plugged in. You have to heat them up with the iron to melt the solder in order to pull them off.

I've added the fuses on PinBot, Blackout, and soon FirePower.

#919 8 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

That should go right in place of the original bridge and looks like a good solution. I usually just install a standard fuse holder nearby, plug one of the wires from the transformer into that, then make a short jumper with .250 terminal to plug into the original bridge. In-expensive and accomplishes the same thing.
One thing to watch out for is many games have those connections soldered after they were plugged in. You have to heat them up with the iron to melt the solder in order to pull them off.
I've added the fuses on PinBot, Blackout, and soon FirePower.

It sure looks like an idea solution albeit a little more expensive than just mounting some fuse blocks to the cabinet.

Fortunately the wires in my rectifiers aren’t soldered on so this should be an easy and quick remedy.

#920 8 months ago
Quoted from Stephan28:

It sure looks like an idea solution albeit a little more expensive than just mounting some fuse blocks to the cabinet.
Fortunately the wires in my rectifiers aren’t soldered on so this should be an easy and quick remedy.

It looks like a nice option and I prefer not hacking up the original wiring. These look like an easy drop in replacement.

#921 8 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

It looks like a nice option and I prefer not hacking up the original wiring. These look like an easy drop in replacement.

Exactly, it can be easily revert back if needed. I went ahead and ordered a set.

#922 8 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

It looks like a nice option and I prefer not hacking up the original wiring. These look like an easy drop in replacement.

No need to hack the wiring, you simply move the wire from the bridge to the fuse and add a short jumper wire from the fuse to bridge.

IMHO this is a mandatory upgrade as detailed by Williams and should never be undone, machines were catching fire. All machines made after a certain point came with the "upgrade" from the factory.

I say "upgrade" as it should have been on the machine day one.

#923 8 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

No need to hack the wiring, you simply move the wire from the bridge to the fuse and add a short jumper wire from the fuse to bridge.
IMHO this is a mandatory upgrade as detailed by Williams and should never be undone, machines were catching fire. All machines made after a certain point came with the "upgrade" from the factory.
I say "upgrade" as it should have been on the machine day one.

This is a modification that "Should" have been designed into the game originally. It is a safety design that is built into any circuit with short condition possibility that has high amperage. Worrying about if it is OEM is not a consideration here. Just needs to be done.

On top of that it is an easy modification that requires no design change per-se.

#924 8 months ago
Quoted from Pin-Pilot:

This is a modification that "Should" have been designed into the game originally. It is a safety design that is built into any circuit with short condition possibility that has high amperage. Worrying about if it is OEM is not a consideration here. Just needs to be done.
On top of that it is an easy modification that requires no design change per-se.

Totally agree but it really doesn’t take much extra effort at all to make it looks like it belongs. These new bridge modules look like a nice clean easy way to do so. I’d use these.

#925 8 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Totally agree but it really doesn’t take much extra effort at all to make it looks like it belongs. These new bridge modules look like a nice clean easy way to do so. I’d use these.

Yes, it is a clean design. The only issue with this is normally the terminals to the BR's are soldered. Removing soldered terminals like these is not an easy task. With that said it is not hard to cut the wires and put new terminals on.

Still a must do update either way.

#926 8 months ago
Quoted from Pin-Pilot:

The only issue with this is normally the terminals to the BR's are soldered. Removing soldered terminals like these is not an easy task.

They weren't soldered from the factory. If they are soldered you just put your soldering iron on the lug and pull with your free hand.

#927 8 months ago
Quoted from Jigs:

They weren't soldered from the factory. If they are soldered you just put your soldering iron on the lug and pull with your free hand.

...and stand back when the solder flies!

If they were not soldered then it is super easy.

#928 7 months ago

I added fuses to the bridges in Grand Lizard and the terminals were soldered. I don't know about system the older systems. I still need to add fuses to Road Kings.

#929 7 months ago

Fwiw, you may want to consider replacing the bridges at the same time you install the fuses. They're cheap enough, and it'll save you the trouble of replacing them down the road if they're the original 40 year old bridges.

I can personally attest to the effectiveness of those added rectifier fuses. I installed mine in my BK over 10 years ago, and about 3-4 years ago the coils stopped working...just in time for our annual Halloween party, literally an hour before the party began. Found the rectifier fuse blown due to the original rectifier going bad. Can't say for certain it would have started a fire, but it certainly *could* have it the fuses weren't there.

Also, the spade terminals were soldered onto the rectifier lugs on my game. It appeared factory, but i can't say for sure.

#930 7 months ago

My were soldered as well, not uncommon in my experience from the factory

#931 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

No need to hack the wiring, you simply move the wire from the bridge to the fuse and add a short jumper wire from the fuse to bridge.
IMHO this is a mandatory upgrade as detailed by Williams and should never be undone, machines were catching fire. All machines made after a certain point came with the "upgrade" from the factory.
I say "upgrade" as it should have been on the machine day one.

Where did you see that Williams suggested this mod? I can't find any evidence they suggested it. On top of that, they didn't add a fuse in front of bridges until all the bridges were moved onto power boards, sometime in the middle of the system 11 era in the late 80s. Early sys 11 still had no fuses on the offboard bridges.

Not saying it isn't a mandatory upgrade, it is for sure especially considering the low cost and high protection it provides.

#932 7 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Where did you see that Williams suggested this mod? I can't find any evidence they suggested it. On top of that, they didn't add a fuse in front of bridges until all the bridges were moved onto power boards, sometime in the middle of the system 11 era in the late 80s. Early sys 11 still had no fuses on the offboard bridges.
Not saying it isn't a mandatory upgrade, it is for sure especially considering the low cost and high protection it provides.

Was in pdf form a few years ago, scan of the original technical service bulletin.

#933 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Was in pdf form a few years ago, scan of the original technical service bulletin.

I have read it as well in a service bulletin.

3 weeks later
#934 7 months ago

Working on a Vids Guide to upgrade my power supply of my William's Blackout.

A few questions came up related to finding the right parts online so links appreciated:

1. What is the part numbers to the two bridge rectifiers in the backbox? I've got my fuse holder but Thought I might replace them in addition to adding the fuses.

2. What is a good replacement for the fuse holders on these System 6 boards. I'm only finding ones for PCBs with two small prongs that attach to the PCB. My power supply looks like they are pressed into the slot then soldiered?

3. What spacing/style are the pins the wiring harnesses connect to (9 Pin, 12 pin, 6 pin and 15 pin) I see various sizes and "square pin" options. So I'm confused? I've only just always re soldier them but noticed my 15 pin has some bent pins so decided I just want to replace all.

#935 7 months ago
Quoted from Matthew2000tx:

so links appreciated

The one and only https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/

You can't go wrong with Ed G-P-E

#936 7 months ago
Quoted from CanadianPinball:

The one and only https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/
You can't go wrong with Ed g-p-e

What parts specifically are the items mentioned in the questions I think was what the question was he had.

Also GPE is often out of stock on things in my experience.

#937 7 months ago
Quoted from tinamarie23:

Also GPE is often out of stock on things

You can also check
Arrow.com
Digikey.com

And a couple more I can't recall at the moment.
If Ed doesn't have what I need my next stop is digikey.com

#938 7 months ago

Fuse clips: https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=1A1907-03
Bridge Rectifier: https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GBPC3504L
.156 (3.96mm) pitch header pins (cut to size): https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=26-48-1245

I don't really like the look of the cut to size header pins so I order specific size KK Series connectors from Mouser but that is much more expensive and no better (only cosmetic).

#939 7 months ago
Quoted from Matthew2000tx:

2. What is a good replacement for the fuse holders on these System 6 boards. I'm only finding ones for PCBs with two small prongs that attach to the PCB. My power supply looks like they are pressed into the slot then soldiered?

It seems that the style used on the boards isn't available anymore. The closest you can get is one with two vertical lugs

#940 7 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

It seems that the style used on the boards isn't available anymore. The closest you can get is one with two vertical lugs

Thanks

2 months later
#941 4 months ago

I'm trying to help a friend replace his blown transistor. However the previous owner overheated the transistor leg holes and now the 3 metal rings are gone (where the transistor legs should be soldered). So now the solder won't stick/attach to the transistor holes. What's the best way to fix this? Jumper the legs? Is there a rivet or something similar to replace the metal around the holes?

#942 4 months ago
Quoted from trk12fire:

Is there a rivet or something similar to replace the metal around the holes?

Yes. But....

Delicate work and you have to have the right tools including a really good soldering pencil and high quality solder. This video....

...is not exactly as you describe the condition of your board, but should give you an idea. If you've never done it before you should get some help from someone who has the tools. Your Weller gun will not do this job.

OTOH, Vid may have some better suggestions. He always does.

///Rich

#943 4 months ago
Quoted from RichWolfson:

Yes. But....
Delicate work and you have to have the right tools including a really good soldering pencil and high quality solder. This video....

...is not exactly as you describe the condition of your board, but should give you an idea. If you've never done it before you should get some help from someone who has the tools. Your Weller gun will not do this job.
OTOH, Vid may have some better suggestions. He always does.
///Rich

Interesting, thank you
I'll have to check Great Plains and see if they have any of these eyelets.

1 week later
#944 4 months ago

Recently I’ve run into an odd issue on a System 3 MPU in a Williams Hot Tip machine. The board is extremely clean and recently had a new 40-pin connector set and new DIP sockets installed.

The board doesn’t always boot. If I shut off the game and turn it back on it usually just comes up an plays normally without issues.

Read about the factory mod to the reset section of the MPU to remove c27, r30, and r40. Then add a 10k resistor. This board already has this mod done and appears factory.

Any other known reset mods for the System 3 boards or items to check?

#945 4 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Recently I’ve run into an odd issue on a System 3 MPU in a Williams Hot Tip machine. The board is extremely clean and recently had a new 40-pin connector set and new DIP sockets installed.
The board doesn’t always boot. If I shut off the game and turn it back on it usually just comes up an plays normally without issues.
Read about the factory mod to the reset section of the MPU to remove c27, r30, and r40. Then add a 10k resistor. This board already has this mod done and appears factory.
Any other known reset mods for the System 3 boards or items to check?

If you've done all of that, I'm assuming you already proofed out the power supply?(check 5v output, reflow header pins as needed and maybe recap it)

#946 4 months ago
Quoted from Clytor:

If you've done all of that, I'm assuming you already proofed out the power supply?(check 5v output, reflow header pins as needed and maybe recap it)

I completely went through the driver and power supply as well. I'm going to go back over all the boards on the bench again just to be sure and will check the resistors and transistors in the reset circuit in case any are bad. I typically don't have to touch those but don't want to assume they are ok since it isn't consistent when booting.

After that I will probably try my spare power supply and driver to see if that happens to clear things up. May pop in a different 6800 CPU since that is an AMI brand and I've run into issue with their PIA chips. Seems odd that it is just the initial booting of the machine. Once it is up it runs fine.

I did install a Weebly NVRAM module in it and could try going back to a regular 5101 RAM to see if that makes a difference.

Also curious if anyone has tried to do bypass some of the bus drivers like the change in the later System 6 boards and if that applies and would be a good thing to do on the earlier boards like the system 3-4

#947 4 months ago

It's looking like it may be just a flaky AMI 6800 CPU chip. Swapped it out and it seems better. Need to do additional tests tomorrow evening.

#948 4 months ago

I witnessed first hand the non fused bridge rectifier wire melt down on a Williams shuffle. Replaced and it is working now. I will definately take the time to upgrade my games and alert some locals that they should do the same as well.

#949 4 months ago

Just wanted to thank Vid again for this awesome guide!

I have been dipping my toe into the early William's solid state pool and while familiar with Data East, William's has just enough of their own quirks that this guide has been invaluable reference. My Blackout and Space Shuttle are just humming along thanks to what has been gone over here.

2 months later
#950 71 days ago

I was playing Laser Ball today and I double flipped and the game froze. Reading Pinwiki I see two different pieces of advice, but I'm not quite sure what it is referring to when it says "rebuild the solenoid power circuit" in 6.13.7. That is the lower info with the blue tick mark.

The upper info is from 6.7, and I can do that too, but need to know what to check/replace for the solenoid power circuit.

Reset (resized).jpg
There are 969 posts in this topic. You are on page 19 of 20.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside