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(Topic ID: 35328)

Vid's Guide to Bulletproofing Williams System 3-7


By vid1900

7 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 940 posts
  • 177 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 17 days ago by Matthew2000tx
  • Topic is favorited by 540 Pinsiders

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There are 940 posts in this topic. You are on page 17 of 19.
#801 1 year ago

Yes that was the plan, 9530 Mosfet and 1k resistors.

The previous owner had replaced the original resistors with 5W27ohms ceramic resistors but he didn't leave any space, so they were touching the board...

3 weeks later
#802 1 year ago

Laser Ball was playing just fine at the house. I loaded it up and moved it to a location spot. Play testing it there and the outhole kicker isn't kicking very hard at all. It seems to be trying twice and then it just stops trying. Drop targets reset fine, pops are popping strong, and it saucer in the upper right was kicking when I trigger the switch. Seems like this one coil is struggling and I'm sort of at a loss because it works, just weak.

#803 1 year ago
Quoted from desertT1:

I loaded it up and moved it to a location spot

My first thought, check the connections in back box after a move. You may have done that but did't mention if you had.

#804 1 year ago

Working on a Williams Gorgar.. Done all the basic bulletproofing stuff as documented in this awesome thread, and was testing my CPU/Driver board on the bench, and notice with my light test fixture, that the lights which are OFF are really very slightly still on.. I have done the "upgrade" of replacing the TIP42s with IRF9Z34N, and have replaced the old power resistors with wires.. Should I worry about what appears to be slight current leak though some part of this circuit, or is this not going to be noticeable when running in the machine? I have used the test rom to verify the actual control of each light works properly. If each row/column looked all the same, I probably wouldn't worry about it, but as you can see in the picture, it's different for each row or column. Am I being too picky? If not, what should I try to replace? Thanks!! (This picture is while the test ROM is running, and was randomly snapped while one LED which was flashing, happened to be off)

IMG_6315 (resized).JPG
#805 1 year ago

All Williams games exhibit some ghosting in the lamp matrix with LED's. Just the nature of the beast. LED's just switch on and off so fast that you can actually see it, as opposed to the slower speed of incandescent bulbs where you can't see it happening.

Happens with an unmodified lamp matrix too.

2 months later
#806 10 months ago
Quoted from Patofnaud:

You can also get them from Digikey
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/IRF9Z34NPBF/IRF9Z34NPBF-ND/811960
and anything over $25 your less than a $1/per...
Plus if you really want to cut down on more heat, replace the TIP41's with IRFZ34NPBF's.... They are the 'NPN' version of the IRF9Z34NPBF (just like the TIP41 is the NPN version of the TIP42)
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/IRFZ34NPBF/IRFZ34NPBF-ND/811724

I need to replace a 2n6122 NPN Power Transistor for my System 3 Driver Board, is this the Tip 41 that this is referring to, because I don't see Tip 41 on my schematic? There are 8 of these transistors that control the multiplexed lamps on the playfield.

#807 10 months ago
Quoted from Danovh:

I need to replace a 2n6122 NPN Power Transistor for my System 3 Driver Board, is this the Tip 41 that this is referring to, because I don't see Tip 41 on my schematic? There are 8 of these transistors that control the multiplexed lamps on the playfield.

Yes, for the lamp row drive some boards had 2N6122 as per the schematics, others had TIP41. Those 2 were/are interchangeable in those locations.

#808 10 months ago

Amazing info! Thx V

#809 9 months ago
Quoted from sndchaser:

Yes, for the lamp row drive some boards had 2N6122 as per the schematics, others had TIP41. Those 2 were/are interchangeable in those locations.

Thanks sndchaser

1 month later
#810 8 months ago

WOW, just WOW!

I did the IRF9Z34N +0 Ohms resistors and the replacement went easy peasy!
Plug it in and while smiling at my soldering work, I see the IRF9Z34N are all backwards, FFS!

Any idea if I burnt any chips?

#811 8 months ago
Quoted from CanadianPinball:

WOW, just WOW!
I did the IRF9Z34N +0 Ohms resistors and the replacement went easy peasy!
Plug it in and while smiling at my soldering work, I see the IRF9Z34N are all backwards, FFS!
Any idea if I burnt any chips?

IIRC those are GDS so you installed it SDG so you probably didn't damage anything, not even the MOSFETs.

#812 8 months ago
Quoted from sndchaser:

IIRC those are GDS so you installed it SDG so you probably didn't damage anything, not even the MOSFETs.

Thanks, gonna reverse them out today or tmo.

#813 8 months ago

Done and working....phew!

1 month later
#814 7 months ago

Tonight I start work on my first Williams of this era, Blackout! I have a controlled lamp that isn't working (blackout insert ironically to the left of extra ball insert) and where should I start? Pinwiki is having some sort of fit this morning and isn't displaying images in the System 6 area and looking at the schematics this looks notably very different than how Gottlieb System 80 works which I'm familiar with.

If someone could point me in the right direction I'd like to learn a new system. First course action when I get home is to chase down the wiring to make sure there is continuity from the socket to the driver board and make sure the diode on the lamp socket hasn't failed. Bulb and socket look fine and bulb has been swapped with known good unit.

#815 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Tonight I start work on my first Williams of this era, Blackout! I have a controlled lamp that isn't working (blackout insert ironically to the left of extra ball insert) and where should I start? Pinwiki is having some sort of fit this morning and isn't displaying images in the System 6 area and looking at the schematics this looks notably very different than how Gottlieb System 80 works which I'm familiar with.
If someone could point me in the right direction I'd like to learn a new system. First course action when I get home is to chase down the wiring to make sure there is continuity from the socket to the driver board and make sure the diode on the lamp socket hasn't failed. Bulb and socket look fine and bulb has been swapped with known good unit.

Since it uses a matrix, having a single light out can only ever be a wiring/socket issue. Any board/connector issue will take out a whole row/column.

#816 7 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Since it uses a matrix, having a single light out can only ever be a wiring/socket issue. Any board/connector issue will take out a whole row/column.

Thanks, that is what I was thinking but unused to working with lamp matrix setup. System 80 is simple one or two lamps off each transistor.

Possible bad diode as well or does that cause problems on the rest of the string?

#817 7 months ago

Check the inside of the socket for oxidation first.
Replace the light bulb with a working one to be sure.
Bridge the diode with a simple piece of wire while the game is on.
Do this simply by hand as it is only 18V and just do it briefly to save the bulb.
If the the lamp lights, the diode is bad.
Otherwise replace the socket.

#818 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Possible bad diode as well or does that cause problems on the rest of the string

Bad diode can fail open or closed. One way will make the one bulb not light, other way will mess up other lamps in the matrix

#819 7 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Bad diode can fail open or closed. One way will make the one bulb not light, other way will mess up other lamps in the matrix

That's what I used to think but it isn't always the case. I ran into a leaky diode for one of the lamps at the top of the playfield on my Blackout. It was odd but replacing the diode fixed it. The rest was over a dozen bad lamp sockets that I replaced.

#820 7 months ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Bad diode can fail open or closed. One way will make the one bulb not light, other way will mess up other lamps in the matrix

It turned out to be a diode, now working 100%

Doing some touch up and noticed the knocker coil seems unhappy, onward! Controlled lights now Comet LED

20200210_182139_B (resized).jpg
#821 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

It turned out to be a diode, now working 100%

I too have a Blackout that i'm going to be overhauling this year. Some of the diodes on different lamps and switches are busted/broken on mine. Where can I learn which model diode I need to buy when I get around to replacing them? Forgive me but I can't read a thing on the ones I have and #blackout is the only williams game I own so I have no other games to easily reference. I've seen reference to 1N4004 in other posts but I don't know if that universal for lamps/switches, if it varies by game/vendor, etc. Any help or links to posts where this is discussed would be greatly appreciated.

#822 7 months ago

well, just about as quick I send that, I find this from 11 days ago..

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fh-diodes-on-switches#post-5450167

#823 7 months ago
Quoted from krankin:

I too have a Blackout that i'm going to be overhauling this year. Some of the diodes on different lamps and switches are busted/broken on mine. Where can I learn which model diode I need to buy when I get around to replacing them? Forgive me but I can't read a thing on the ones I have and #blackout is the only williams game I own so I have no other games to easily reference. I've seen reference to 1N4004 in other posts but I don't know if that universal for lamps/switches, if it varies by game/vendor, etc. Any help or links to posts where this is discussed would be greatly appreciated.

I could not find which one in the Williams manual but had a pile I had purchased for DE coils, worked perfect.

#824 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

It turned out to be a diode, now working 100%
Doing some touch up and noticed the knocker coil seems unhappy, onward! Controlled lights now Comet LED[quoted image]

I'm also working on a Blackout. My eject hole fires on and off by itself when the game warms up. I'm trying to figure out if the transistor is going bad or I have a problem with the 40 pin.

#825 7 months ago

Quick question before re-capping the power and sound boards on an old system 3 Contact.
I have kits for each on hand from Big Daddy. Easy enough to tell which cap goes where.

I have a question about the sound board though. My Contact has a type 1 sound board - 1st generation. (Single fuse, largest cap is vertical instead of horzontal. I see some things online saying Contact should have 2nd generation, but that's not what's in my machine.)

It looks like the top half of this image from the Big Daddy site.
sys3-6SNDBRDs (resized).jpg

My question.

On my board, the cap at C27 (100 mfd, 10v) has a 2nd smaller capacitor soldered in at the same location.
From the schematic:
Screenshot (resized).png
Screenshot2 (resized).png

The kit I bought only contains a single capacitor for this location. A 100 mfd 25v.
Should I worry about transferring the small ceramic cap over? It's present in my machine now, but in looking at images of old type 1 sound boards, I'm not seeing the small ceramic cap in any photo with a high enough resolution to check. It's not present in the photo above for example.

#826 7 months ago

No need to replace ceramic caps unless they break off

#827 7 months ago

Interesting Blackout problem or two;

When the machine is on and you play a game, finish.

1) Game will speak when game over but usually gibberish. Blackout Mission Green for example. Usually 3 words strung together at random. This has been answered and is normal for the title and in the manual, doh!

2) If the game is sitting with game over and you just played a one player game. Player one display will display your score and alternate with high score. Other three displays will have 000,000. So far normal.

Game will time out to attract mode "BLACKOUT" flash the lights and displays and when the lights and display come back all the displays will show high score. None will resort back to 000,000 and only the one player will alternate with high score and last score.

Curious. Where do I start looking?

Also had one time when playing the red-green-yellow-blackout inserts would not reset after hitting the outhole and was able to trigger it over and over.

Almost sounds like a bad ram chip or voltage issues. The game does get angry when the garage furnace kicks in which is unusual as it is plugged into a very stout commercial grade surge protection device from a very large copier!

#828 7 months ago

Is your Blackout running original boards? If so what has been done to them? Has the 40 pin interconnect been replaced? What about resoldering cracked solder joints?

#829 7 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Is your Blackout running original boards? If so what has been done to them? Has the 40 pin interconnect been replaced? What about resoldering cracked solder joints?

1) Yes aside from the PinScore LED display set.

2) Not sure, new machine to me. The sound board has been gone over with new caps and eproms recently. The MPU/Power boards have clearly been worked on in the past but some time ago I wager. MPU has socketed 5101 ram. Will make VRAM upgrade easy.

The power supply has a huge cap remote mounted where the original was surface mounted. I think a full recap of that board is in order, the rest are OEM. Diodes look great, F1 fuse already gone (LED displays). If I was a betting man, my money would be on the power board caps causing the erratic play when the furnace kicks on.

3) Unknown, there is four distinct sections, normal for this connector? I'll assume replace since I have to order caps anyways.

4) Have not examined any joints yet. Looking at the beginning part of the guide here now on the to do list.

Machine works fine otherwise which is curious. I did not know if the display issue was normal or not, just seemed odd.

1) Is it normal to say anything when game is over? (ANSWERED! Thanks for the pinsider who pointed out the answer in the manual, yes a random phrase is normal for this title)

2) Do other Blackouts have the same score glitch in attract mode?

#830 7 months ago

Some pictures for your viewing pleasure, yup I noticed the proms sockets already. The junky ones.

I'm learning about early Williams systems rapidly. This thread has been an excellent resource.

And yes I plan on fusing the bridges and replacing the toasty resistor.

20200215_105911 (resized).jpg20200215_105919 (resized).jpg

#831 7 months ago
Quoted from CanadianPinball:

No need to replace ceramic caps unless they break off

Not asking if I should replace it - more "should I put it back in place after replacing the other caps" since I'm seeing so many pictures of these sound boards without it even being present.

#832 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Some pictures for your viewing pleasure, yup I noticed the proms sockets already. The junky ones.
I'm learning about early Williams systems rapidly. This thread has been an excellent resource.
And yes I plan on fusing the bridges and replacing the toasty resistor.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Look here for more Blackout ideas...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/blackout-club-fans-welcome
I've posted instructions on how to split the G.I. lighting into 4 parts and offcource reccommend my Bridge Board.
I can also reccommend using a Special Solenoid Saver Board.

#833 7 months ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

Look here for more Blackout ideas...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/blackout-club-fans-welcome
I've posted instructions on how to split the G.I. lighting into 4 parts and offcource reccommend my Bridge Board.
I can also reccommend using a Special Solenoid Saver Board.

GI not to concerned, already swapped to LED for most of it to reduce load and the SSSB is out of stock =(

#834 7 months ago
Quoted from Beatnik-Filmstar:

Not asking if I should replace it - more "should I put it back in place after replacing the other caps" since I'm seeing so many pictures of these sound boards without it even being present.

Yes you should, expecially since it is listed on the schematic for your board.

Quoted from gdonovan:

Interesting Blackout problem or two;
When the machine is on and you play a game, finish.
1) Game will speak when game over but usually gibberish. Blackout Mission Green for example. Usually 3 words strung together at random. This has been answered and is normal for the title and in the manual, doh!
2) If the game is sitting with game over and you just played a one player game. Player one display will display your score and alternate with high score. Other three displays will have 000,000. So far normal.
Game will time out to attract mode "BLACKOUT" flash the lights and displays and when the lights and display come back all the displays will show high score. None will resort back to 000,000 and only the one player will alternate with high score and last score.
Curious. Where do I start looking?
Also had one time when playing the red-green-yellow-blackout inserts would not reset after hitting the outhole and was able to trigger it over and over.
Almost sounds like a bad ram chip or voltage issues. The game does get angry when the garage furnace kicks in which is unusual as it is plugged into a very stout commercial grade surge protection device from a very large copier!

You should always replace the 40 pin unless you know it is new. At least wait to troubleshoot weird behavior until you have replaced it. Including your game's feelings about your furnace.

You will have better luck getting answers to your specific Blackout questions in the club thread. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/blackout-club-fans-welcome

#835 7 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Yes you should, expecially since it is listed on the schematic for your board.
You should always replace the 40 pin unless you know it is new. At least wait to troubleshoot weird behavior until you have replaced it. Including your game's feelings about your furnace.
You will have better luck getting answers to your specific Blackout questions in the club thread. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/blackout-club-fans-welcome

Rottendog long since installed. No 40 pin to worry about.

(I’m not the Blackout person)

#836 7 months ago
Quoted from Beatnik-Filmstar:

Rottendog long since installed. No 40 pin to worry about.
(I’m not the Blackout person)

oops, sorry about that! Combined the two questions and answers. Fixed my post.

#837 7 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You should always replace the 40 pin unless you know it is new. At least wait to troubleshoot weird behavior until you have replaced it. Including your game's feelings about your furnace.

Forty pin connector and power supply caps on the way from Great Plains.

#838 7 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

oops, sorry about that! Combined the two questions and answers. Fixed my post.

No problem, of course.

Will just transfer that small ceramic cap over when recapping. Does seem curious to me that there's so many pictures of these sound boards that have been recapped but appear to no longer have the extra little cap. Wonder what purpose it really serves. If removing it caused much of an issue I assume there's be warnings about moving it over.

#839 7 months ago
Quoted from Beatnik-Filmstar:

No problem, of course.
Will just transfer that small ceramic cap over when recapping. Does seem curious to me that there's so many pictures of these sound boards that have been recapped but appear to no longer have the extra little cap. Wonder what purpose it really serves. If removing it caused much of an issue I assume there's be warnings about moving it over.

It's about frequency response. They are both there to stabilize the power rail. The larger electrolytic cap responds better to low frequency changes, either in the supply voltage or from increases in current draw from the subject board. The ceramic cap is capable of smoothing high frequency changes, either in the supply (i.e. from noise or EMI), or from any chips on the sound board that may create spurious noise through transistors switching on and off. Putting a ceramic cap in parallel with an electrolytic cap is a sound practice in any power rail decoupling application and putting the ceramic capacitor back (or adding it if not there already) will only serve to improve things.

#840 7 months ago
Quoted from sndchaser:

It's about frequency response. They are both there to stabilize the power rail. The larger electrolytic cap responds better to low frequency changes, either in the supply voltage or from increases in current draw from the subject board. The ceramic cap is capable of smoothing high frequency changes, either in the supply (i.e. from noise or EMI), or from any chips on the sound board that may create spurious noise through transistors switching on and off. Putting a ceramic cap in parallel with an electrolytic cap is a sound practice in any power rail decoupling application and putting the ceramic capacitor back (or adding it if not there already) will only serve to improve things.

Thanks for the info. I'd click upvote twice if I could even though I understood way less of that explanation than I'd like.

Edit: Even though I'm convinced to transfer the ceramic cap over, I can't stop looking around. Did finally find a pic of a board that had been re-capped with the small ceramic capacitor put back in place. Thumbs up to this person being thorough.
s-l1600 (resized).jpg

#841 7 months ago
Quoted from Beatnik-Filmstar:

I'd click upvote twice if I could even though I understood way less of that explanation than I'd like.

I agree, sndchaser really knows his sh*t about electronics.

Either that, or he is a total bullsh*t artist.

#842 7 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Next the Diodes D7 and D8 are always burnt and stressed. These were undersized from Williams.
Replace these with beefy 6A4 Diodes.

Question and pardon my ignorance of Williams System 6 but I'm learning fast.

If one of these diodes has failed will you see a low 12 volt line to the MPU? Say in the neighborhood of 9.3 to 9.6 volts DC?

Because that is what I'm seeing coming out of the power board 12 volt unregulated line, roughly 9.6 volts.

Edit. Just took a meter to diodes, yup one on the right is open. Answered my own question I reckon.

#843 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Question and pardon my ignorance of Williams System 6 but I'm learning fast.
If one of these diodes has failed will you see a low 12 volt line to the MPU? Say in the neighborhood of 9.3 to 9.6 volts DC?
Because that is what I'm seeing coming out of the power board 12 volt unregulated line, roughly 9.6 volts.
Edit. Just took a meter to diodes, yup one on the right is open. Answered my own question I reckon.

Yep, if one of the diodes failed, the voltage would be low. It will also quickly stress out the large filter cap as it tries to even out the pulsing voltage.

#844 7 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Yep, if one of the diodes failed, the voltage would be low. It will also quickly stress out the large filter cap as it tries to even out the pulsing voltage.

Good thing I just replaced it then, pity I did not catch it before the last two order of parts last week.

#845 7 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

You should always replace the 40 pin unless you know it is new. At least wait to troubleshoot weird behavior until you have replaced it. Including your game's feelings about your furnace.

Just a follow up on this point about the workshop furnace, nothing done on the machine changed the behavior but I got a volt meter out and when the furnace blower kicks in the outlet voltage is dropping from 117 to 97! I'm surprised other machines have not exhibited issues as well with that kind of drop.

#846 7 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

Just a follow up on this point about the workshop furnace, nothing done on the machine changed the behavior but I got a volt meter out and when the furnace blower kicks in the outlet voltage is dropping from 117 to 97! I'm surprised other machines have not exhibited issues as well with that kind of drop.

Wow, that's quite a drop and a good find. feels like you have a wiring problem with that circuit or it is very loaded.

#847 7 months ago

A possible "easy fix" for the voltage surge/drop might be the start/run capacitors on your HVAC motors. I'm not a pro tech but I researched this issue when doing some DIY repairs to motors that failed in my systems (outside AC condensor; then the inside duct blower). Each requires a large capacitor to handle the surge current when they start... and like all electrolytic caps, they have a lifespan and the ones on my system were approaching 20 years old. At any rate, after replacing them I noticed the household "brownouts" when they turned on were far less dramatic... more like a brief flicker. (By replacing out of sequence I can confirm this was due to the caps, not the motors).

Might be worth some reaearch. In my case the caps were not expensive, only about $10 and 10 minutes to replace.

Another thing to check might be old wall switches. We moved to a 50yo house with original hardware and one particular circuit had odd symptoms. On a hunch I inspected a switch and it had some connections that had worked loose. After tightening them up the circuit became much more stable. Old/flaky in-line outlets could probably cause the same issue. If you have lots of old original hardware installed, it might be worth checking out. Start by replacing any polarized-only outlets with properly grounded ones - that's a great excuse to get into each one and perform an inspection en route to a worthwhile upgrade.

#848 7 months ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

A possible "easy fix" for the voltage surge/drop might be the start/run capacitors on your HVAC motors.

A good place to start, the garage was built in 2012 but the furnace was a pickup off CL and is much older though in very nice shape. I bet the starting cap isn't so good at this point.

#849 6 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Wow, that's quite a drop and a good find. feels like you have a wiring problem with that circuit or it is very loaded.

I'm still going to explore this a bit more with the machine, I suspect something still isn't right. Last night for entertainment value I hooked up a server class battery backup power supply and Blackout still glitched out. I'm thinking when I got the machine it had a large remote cap attached to the power board for some reason, no doubt to try and resolve the problem. I think I need to look hard at the cord and ac filter in the cabinet if not just replace both on general principle as they are 40 years old at this point.

filter (resized).jpg
#850 6 months ago

What is the easiest way to unsolder the 9 pin edge connectors? I am replacing them with new .156 Trifurcon connectors, and I find that removing them while all pins are still attached to the plastic is a pain.

I would love to (easily) remove the plastic before removing the pins individually, but I have not found a good way to do that.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

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