Vid's Guide to Bulletproofing Williams System 3-7

(Topic ID: 35328)

Vid's Guide to Bulletproofing Williams System 3-7


By vid1900

6 years ago



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There are 775 posts in this topic. You are on page 16 of 16.
#751 4 months ago

Intermittent sound issues with my Firepower... I guess time has come to re-cap the sound board (see hole in cap on picture below!)... But... Won't be easy to desolder caps from this huge ground plane!

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#752 4 months ago
Quoted from matiou:

Intermittent sound issues with my Firepower... I guess time has come to re-cap the sound board (see hole in cap on picture below!)... But... Won't be easy to desolder caps from this huge ground plane!
[quoted image]

Check the DIP sockets on the sound card. I was having intermittent issues with my Blackout and replacing the original sockets with quality machine pin sockets fixed it.

#753 4 months ago
Quoted from matiou:

But... Won't be easy to desolder caps from this huge ground plane!
[quoted image]

You are correct. The huge ground plane makes it a little rough. I got everything out okay, but getting the holes cleared was a little frustrating. I used a solder sucker (the clicky tube type). I found that adding some new solder helped.

I agree with Robotworkshop about the sockets. I have a similar issue I am working on with my Black Knight and I have recapped the board. Oddly, my issue has now reversed. It used to take 20 - 40 minutes for the sound to finally kick in. Now I get sound immediately, but if I turn off the machine for any reason, I then have no sound. That's just weird. I was hot on the trail of fixing it, but my mom passed away last week and I have been sort of reeling from that. But I will get back at it at some point soon.

Hey, something else to add. Make sure you reflow all the connectors. I took like an hour and reflowed every solder point on the board (just to make sure). You have to make sure you are very careful not to over heat anything though. I like to use a really hot iron. Get in, flow it, and get off as fast as possible.

#754 4 months ago
Quoted from matiou:

Intermittent sound issues with my Firepower... I guess time has come to re-cap the sound board (see hole in cap on picture below!)... But... Won't be easy to desolder caps from this huge ground plane!
[quoted image]

That's a vent hole, so if the capacitor pops it does so from a controlled point rather than exploding all over the place.

#755 4 months ago
Quoted from matiou:

Intermittent sound issues with my Firepower... I guess time has come to re-cap the sound board (see hole in cap on picture below!)... But... Won't be easy to desolder caps from this huge ground plane!

Huh! Sorry the sound is flaky. It did go out on me a couple times over the years while tinkering with it but I thought I had it fixed. As I'm sure you know it can be tricky chasing down intermittents.

All of the header pins on each board have been re-flowed already; as someone else mentioned the sockets can be problematic and the ribbon cable between the sound board and speech board can, too. I'm not certain if it can be a source of the sound going out but since the speech board has the "mixer" knob on it that lets you balance sound effect:speech volume level, I'd think it's at least a suspect (the ribbon cable between the boards, that is.)

Richard

#756 4 months ago
Quoted from someotherguy:

Huh! Sorry the sound is flaky. It did go out on me a couple times over the years while tinkering with it but I thought I had it fixed. As I'm sure you know it can be tricky chasing down intermittents.

No problem at all! I signed up for this type of thing, that's what happens with electronics from the 80s I'm going to troubleshoot a bit more. I was hoping the hole in the cap could be a root cause, but if such vent hole is expected, maybe not. Won't hurt to replace it anyway.

#757 4 months ago

Those largebground planes can make removing parts a pain. I've had my son help with a second iron on the other side of the PCB for difficult ones.

#758 4 months ago
Quoted from Robotworkshop:

Those largebground planes can make removing parts a pain. I've had my son help with a second iron on the other side of the PCB for difficult ones.

Yep, in the field I'll use 2 irons for some of those giant groundplanes

On the bench, the Metcal can do it, but it takes about 15 seconds to get it full liquid. It's probably the very limit of what the thing can do.

3 weeks later
#759 3 months ago

I'm having trouble with occasional resets on Gorgar. Pinwiki led me to check the unregulated 12V, and while I understand it can vary, I'm only getting 10V. I traced the 10V all the way back to the diodes on the power board, which are new 6A4 diodes that I installed per this guide. I'm getting 9.5 VAC on the other side of the diodes, which looks correct per the schematic.

Granted this was tested when it booted up fine. My guess is 10V is borderline ok, but it's occasionally dropping below that and causing the reset. What should I be changing or checking here if that's the case? New diodes again? Or does it sound more like I'm going down the wrong path with the reset issue?

#760 3 months ago

^

Check the voltage at the MPU board. If voltages are good then:

Boot it up, then gently twist each IC CW/CCW on the MPU until the game resets.

Replace the socket of the bad IC

#761 3 months ago
Quoted from CaffeineSlug:

I'm having trouble with occasional resets on Gorgar. Pinwiki led me to check the unregulated 12V, and while I understand it can vary, I'm only getting 10V. I traced the 10V all the way back to the diodes on the power board, which are new 6A4 diodes that I installed per this guide. I'm getting 9.5 VAC on the other side of the diodes, which looks correct per the schematic.
Granted this was tested when it booted up fine. My guess is 10V is borderline ok, but it's occasionally dropping below that and causing the reset. What should I be changing or checking here if that's the case? New diodes again? Or does it sound more like I'm going down the wrong path with the reset issue?

So on one side of each diode, you are getting 9.5V AC and on the other side of the diodes, you are getting 10V DC? You should be seeing much more than 10V if both diodes are good with a 9.5AC input.

Measure DC volts between ground and each clip of F5 and tell us what you are seeing.

Remove F5 and tell us what DC voltage you see at the F5 clip (this will be the unloaded voltage).

I would look closely at the pins in J1 for loose, tarnished, worn out connections. Does J1 show any signs of getting warm (yellowed or burned housing)?

#762 3 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Check the voltage at the MPU board.

I first checked at the MPU and that's where I saw 10V, at TP1. Then checked at the MPU connector, then power supply connector, fuse, capacitor, and diodes. Same everywhere.

Quoted from Schwaggs:

Measure DC volts between ground and each clip of F5 and tell us what you are seeing.
Remove F5 and tell us what DC voltage you see at the F5 clip (this will be the unloaded voltage).

I'm getting 10.0 VDC at each clip with F5 in, and 13.1 VDC with F5 removed.

Quoted from Schwaggs:

I would look closely at the pins in J1 for loose, tarnished, worn out connections. Does J1 show any signs of getting warm (yellowed or burned housing)?

Pins 3 and 6 on the board look pretty toasty, but the connector shows no signs. (I don't understand 6 looking bad, there's no mating pin for it in the connector?)

#763 3 months ago
Quoted from CaffeineSlug:

I first checked at the MPU and that's where I saw 10V, at TP1. Then checked at the MPU connector, then power supply connector, fuse, capacitor, and diodes. Same everywhere.

I'm getting 10.0 VDC at each clip with F5 in, and 13.1 VDC with F5 removed.

Pins 3 and 6 on the board look pretty toasty, but the connector shows no signs. (I don't understand 6 looking bad, there's no mating pin for it in the connector?)

6 Being toasty might have been caused by the board being from another game that uses pin 6. Pin 3 is for flipper power so I can't see that as the cause of your issue. I would order a replacement wafer connector and pins from GPE and replace them when you get a chance.

Look below the power board, there are several fuses mounted on the backbox. There is a pair of 4A SB fuses there labeled F2 and F3. These fuse the power supply as it enters the power supply board. Using your meter on AC, measure from ground to each side of these fuses in these fuse holder as well as the inputs to the diodes on the power supply board. You are looking for a voltage drop caused by a dirty connection somewhere. After you measure, remove these fuses, clean with a green scrubby or something, reinstall and remeasure to see if things improved.

#764 3 months ago
Quoted from sndchaser:

That's a vent hole, so if the capacitor pops it does so from a controlled point rather than exploding all over the place.

I had one explode on me, in a monitor, after I'd installed it backward. Looked like confetti in my hair.

#765 3 months ago
Quoted from RoyGBev:

I had one explode on me, in a monitor, after I'd installed it backward. Looked like confetti in my hair.

I installed one with too low voltage on my PSU a while ago. One of the loudest noises I've ever heard. Was fun cleaning all the confetti feather crap out of the game..

#766 3 months ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Look below the power board, there are several fuses mounted on the backbox. There is a pair of 4A SB fuses there labeled F2 and F3. These fuse the power supply as it enters the power supply board. Using your meter on AC, measure from ground to each side of these fuses in these fuse holder as well as the inputs to the diodes on the power supply board. You are looking for a voltage drop caused by a dirty connection somewhere. After you measure, remove these fuses, clean with a green scrubby or something, reinstall and remeasure to see if things improved.

Before:
10.0 to 9.5 VAC, and 9.7 to 9.6 VAC

Didn't do a great job of cleaning those fuse clips with the big cap in the way, but I looked at the fuse for the one with the 0.5V drop, and it was measuring about 5 Ohms resistance. It was also a 1/4A fuse! I replaced that with a 2.5A SB fuse (don't have any 4A on hand).

After:
9.9 to 9.8 VAC, and 9.8 to 9.8 VAC
Diodes both measured 9.8 VAC going in and 11.1 VDC coming out.

MPU TP1 is now getting 11.0 VDC, so definitely an improvement over where I started. Anything else I should be looking at? If not I'll just keep an eye on it and see if I get any more resets.

#767 3 months ago
Quoted from CaffeineSlug:

Before:
10.0 to 9.5 VAC, and 9.7 to 9.6 VAC
Didn't do a great job of cleaning those fuse clips with the big cap in the way, but I looked at the fuse for the one with the 0.5V drop, and it was measuring about 5 Ohms resistance. It was also a 1/4A fuse! I replaced that with a 2.5A SB fuse (don't have any 4A on hand).
After:
9.9 to 9.8 VAC, and 9.8 to 9.8 VAC
Diodes both measured 9.8 VAC going in and 11.1 VDC coming out.
MPU TP1 is now getting 11.0 VDC, so definitely an improvement over where I started. Anything else I should be looking at? If not I'll just keep an eye on it and see if I get any more resets.

Nice find!

Looking at the reset circuit, I can't see how a voltage over 7ish volts on the 12v circuit would cause resets. Since 5v is derived from the same source as the unregulated 12v, I would play it for a while and see how things go.

#768 3 months ago

Performed the fire proofing on my project Laser Ball, "fired up" the game last nite and voila, all is well!
Thanks Vid.

Thanks to Peter ( Inkochnito ) , I modified his fuse chart to take into account the additional fuses.

fuse chart (resized).jpgfuses (resized).jpg
2 months later
#769 41 days ago

I am working through this post on a High Speed that has sat for quite some time. Before and after replacing caps, I am getting 12v on the 5v test point. I think the transistor is bad. Have a new one on the way.

I assume the high voltage changes apply to system 11, as well. My problem is the component layout is slightly different from the image on page 2 of this post. I am not able to find a component layout for the System 11 power board. Can someone point out the resistor and diode numbers or point me to an image with the components labeled?

C5151D0F-4274-46A3-943C-745B16C7FEC7 (resized).jpeg
#771 41 days ago

atari_daze
Thanks! I had seen a page like that before, but it didn’t have the labels. That is very helpful.

#772 41 days ago

NP, bookmark that site, it's invaluable!

4 weeks later
#773 13 days ago

Even after cleaning original GI fuse holder it would fail under load(buzz and spark). I could see how someone could test fuse and move on to further problem solving not knowing the fuse holder is failing. There have been a few approaches on replacing old fuse holders. Here is a picture of my solution and another pinsiders solution. Bottom photo he divided 4 GI(20amp fuse) into 4 separate 5amp fuses. Top pic, I divides into two 10 amp fuses. The biggest problem with putting all 4 together as seen in original is soldering a 4 wires on one little fuse tab as seen in second picture. Do not like this mounted in the front(game had this hack). Hope this helps. Simple easy clean look now.

IMG_0315 (resized).jpgafpbk (resized).jpg

#774 9 days ago
Quoted from tomm1963:

I have replaced the 8 TIP42 lamp matrix transistors (Q63, 65, 67, 69, 71,73, 75 and Q77) with IRF9Z34N MOSFETs on multiple games with great results. But this was the first effort at replacing the TIP41's with IRFZ34NPBF. This did not go well. If you have some decent photos of a full swap on a Sys 6 Driver board I would love to see them posted.

What works for tip41c in sys6? Can you use IRF9Z34N or IRFZ34NPBF? Are these different or the same thing. I'm assuming whatever you use it's recommended to keep resistors in?
Thanks

#775 9 days ago
Quoted from Inkochnito:

@ vid1900, what do you think of my Bridge Board?
A very nice replacement board for the big capacitor, bridge rectifiers, and adding both fuses.
It even fits (9 out 10 times) on the old screw holes from the bridge rectifiers.
Take a look on my website: http://home.kpn.nl/p.koch3/
You can order a Bridge Board at Big Daddy Enterprises.
European customers can order directly with me (via e-mail).
[quoted image]
Peter
www.inkochnito.nl

This is what I installed in my Black Knight. it is soooo much better than the nest of parts and wires. Marco and BDE sell this. I also installed this in my Sega BW.

download (resized).jpeg
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