(Topic ID: 35965)

Vid's Guide - Bally/Stern Driver Board Repair / Bulletproofing.


By vid1900

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 200 posts
  • 52 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 months ago by Mombo-number-5
  • Topic is favorited by 298 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 78 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

20181220_112338 (resized).jpg
IMG_0021 (resized).JPG
IMG_0020 (resized).JPG
IMG_0656 (resized).PNG
IMG_0202 (resized).JPG
IMG_0201 (resized).JPG
IMG_0203 (resized).JPG
IMG_0195 (resized).JPG
IMG_0197 (resized).JPG
IMG_0200 (resized).JPG
IMG_0198 (resized).JPG
hothandinsert.jpg
IMG_0402.jpg
IMG_3768.JPG
IMG_3756.JPG
IMG_3753.JPG

Topic index (key posts)

3 key posts have been marked in this topic (Show topic index)

There are 200 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 4.
#151 3 years ago
Quoted from KennyL:

A heck of a lot of current must have hit that one trace all at once for it to "vaporize" like that. All you could see was the gap in the solder mask where the trace once was and the bare PCB...

Sometimes you find 30A fuses installed instead of a 3A, and that is exactly what happens.

Or the game simply catches fire:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-we-dont-put-larger-fuses-than-spec-into-games

First thing I always do is check every fuse and replace all the incorrect ones.

4 months later
#152 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The Bally boards have a tiny, hard to find, expensive fuse on them.
....

1) Gently mash fuse clips with pliers..

IMG_0402.jpg

2) Insert tiny, easy to find, cheap fuse in them.

http://www.taydaelectronics.com/circuit-protection/fuses/glass-fuses/fuse-glass-fast-acting-160ma-5x20.html

Games with extra displays like Lightning and $6 Man may need the full 187ma (3/16 amp) fuse. I pulled the fuse from Hot Hand and put a meter across the clips - it never read higher than 100ma . ymmv

Quoted from vid1900:

.....
I've seen so many boards with 1/4 amp fuses installed, that I wonder if the factory used them occasionally?

The Stern factory did.

BTW... a lot of those Stern games with no HV fuse on the driver board had a fuse holder on the insert panel.

hothandinsert.jpg

2 weeks later
#153 3 years ago

Relevant question, I replaced all of my displays on Fathom with XPin LEDs. Do I even need the high voltage supply at this point?

#154 3 years ago
Quoted from neurokinetik:

Relevant question, I replaced all of my displays on Fathom with XPin LEDs. Do I even need the high voltage supply at this point?

no, pull the hv fuse out at the rectifier board.

5 months later
#155 3 years ago

Vid, can you explain to me what an ESR meter is? What ESR stands for? Does it test resistance between the two sides of the capacitor, or how does it work?

#156 3 years ago
Quoted from La_Porta:

Vid, can you explain to me what an ESR meter is? What ESR stands for? Does it test resistance between the two sides of the capacitor, or how does it work?

This may help with an explaination:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESR_meter

#157 3 years ago
Quoted from La_Porta:

Vid, can you explain to me what an ESR meter is? What ESR stands for? Does it test resistance between the two sides of the capacitor, or how does it work?

As electrolytic caps age, their ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) increases.

The higher the temps and ripple, the faster the caps age.

Of course, the higher the resistance, the higher the temps, so the problem becomes a downward spiral.

As you could see from the C26 example, even though a cap's capacitance value is within spec, the high ESR tells us that the cap is not functioning properly.

99% of the time, the ESR meter can read a cap while still installed in the circuit. Although, when you have a bank of caps installed parallel to each other (like in an unregulated CNC stepper driver power supply), you have to pull one leg.

An ESR meter is not perfect. It will not read really tiny caps (like anything below .01uf), and there is not a perfect go/no-go line. You quickly learn the acceptable ESR ranges for different cap values. Just probing through your junk box will give you a crash course in ESR in about 15 minutes. Bad caps will often just say "Leaky" on the display.

As far as which ESR meter to buy, there are many that cost more than the Atlas ESR70+, but I don't think any have the all the features that it has. If you repair lot's of boards, it is a great tool. If you just poke around a few times a year, you can buy lots of replacement caps for the $129 that the meter costs...

3 weeks later
#158 3 years ago

Hey Vid. Great guide. Question from post #10. Isn't J3-24 supposed to be connected to J3-23? In your photo it doesn't appear like they are but on the schematic J3-23 & -24 are grounds for the solenoids. Am I missing something?

4 months later
#159 2 years ago

I am working on my second board that has a 160uf 350volt cap at c26 (instead of a 150uf 350volt) it came out of a Bally Star Trek.

Is it okay to replace a 160uf 350 volt with a 150uf 350volt cap?

#160 2 years ago
Quoted from wantdataeast:

I am working on my second board that has a 160uf 350volt cap at c26 (instead of a 150uf 350volt) it came out of a Bally Star Trek.
Is it okay to replace a 160uf 350 volt with a 150uf 350volt cap?

Yes, it's OK.

But, don't reuse old caps.

Caps are mechanical parts, that are rated for X amount of hours runtime. Old caps die quickly when you unsolder them and then re-solder into another circuit.

You can always use a higher voltage rated cap - so a 10000v 10uf is a great replacement for a 25v 10uf cap.

#161 2 years ago

I'm working on getting a Star Gazer I justed picked up playing. Game had a new RottenDog rectifier board in it but the J3 plug was missing, just loose wires hanging there. Previous owner said he couldn't get it working and never got to play it.

I verified the recitifer board connections and fixed the J3 plug. The MPU is showing a solid red LED and I haven't gotten as far to set it up on the workbench for further diagnosis. However, I did check all the test point voltages and they are in spec on the rectifier board, soleniod driver board, and MPU board except for these two:

- SDB: TP5 = 14.82VDC (should be 11.9 +/- 1.4VDC)
- MPU: TP2 = 14.0 VDC (should be 11.9 +/- 1.4VDC)

Would this 1.5VDC overage be enough to cause problems? Seems unlikely...

#162 2 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

I'm working on getting a Star Gazer I justed picked up playing. Game had a new RottenDog rectifier board in it but the J3 plug was missing, just loose wires hanging there. Previous owner said he couldn't get it working and never got to play it.
I verified the recitifer board connections and fixed the J3 plug. The MPU is showing a solid red LED and I haven't gotten as far to set it up on the workbench for further diagnosis. However, I did check all the test point voltages and they are in spec on the rectifier board, soleniod driver board, and MPU board except for these two:
- SDB: TP5 = 14.82VDC (should be 11.9 +/- 1.4VDC)
- MPU: TP2 = 14.0 VDC (should be 11.9 +/- 1.4VDC)
Would this 1.5VDC overage be enough to cause problems? Seems unlikely...

When the LED is stuck on, that's not usually a voltage problem.

Post a pic of the MPU (well lit, focused), especially the lower left hand side.

#163 2 years ago

It looks like battery acid damage.

IMG_0198 (resized).JPG

IMG_0200 (resized).JPG

IMG_0197 (resized).JPG

IMG_0195 (resized).JPG

#164 2 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

It looks like battery acid damage.

Yes, but that's better than most, and totally fixable.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stripping-battery-corrosion-with-a-strong-acid

#165 2 years ago

Yeah, it looks pretty limited.

I found another reason why it wouldn't be workng when I pulled the 5101 chip to assess the socket.
IMG_0201 (resized).JPG

Which components do you think I should replace? I'm thinking the components along the bottom to the left side of the 5101 socket, that are at or below the bottom half of the 5101 socket. There is also a pretty suspect capacitor in the middle of that group with blackened leads.

IMG_0202 (resized).JPG
IMG_0203 (resized).JPG

#166 2 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Which components do you think I should replace?

Anything that looks crusty/corroded or affected by battery damage.

#167 2 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Yeah, it looks pretty limited.
I found another reason why it wouldn't be workng when I pulled the 5101 chip to assess the socket.

Which components do you think I should replace? I'm thinking the components along the bottom to the left side of the 5101 socket, that are at or below the bottom half of the 5101 socket. There is also a pretty suspect capacitor in the middle of that group with blackened leads.

The U8 socket looks like the only show stopper.

Ideally all the components with corrosion should be replaced and all corroded copper cleaned, coated with a fresh solder and sealed.

#168 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

The U8 socket looks like the only show stopper.
Ideally all the components with corrosion should be replaced and all corroded copper cleaned, coated with a fresh solder and sealed.

Yeah, I looked at them really closely under magnification and decided to only replace a few of them. I haven't even had time to review the plentiful information on Pinside re: battery leakage restoration yet, but do I need to remove the solder mask over the areas that are lifted/bubbled from the battery damage, while keeping the traces intact?

#169 2 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Yeah, I looked at them really closely under magnification and decided to only replace a few of them. I haven't even had time to review the plentiful information on Pinside re: battery leakage restoration yet, but do I need to remove the solder mask over the areas that are lifted/bubbled from the battery damage, while keeping the traces intact?

There is some debate on that. I would scrape off all corrosion, replace all the parts effected, put down fresh solder on top of the exposed copper.

If you are not well practiced at doing solder rework, i have a hard time recommending you attempt repair on it. That is a very salvageable MPU200 board. Hate to see the socket replacement go bad that mangles the board.

Find some junky boards and practice pulling through hole chips off of them. Once you can pull chips off and put them back on with out damaging the board, you are ready to tackle that u8 IC socket.

#170 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

There is some debate on that. I would scrape off all corrosion, replace all the parts effected, put down fresh solder on top of the exposed copper.
If you are not well practiced at doing solder rework, i have a hard time recommending you attempt repair on it. That is a very salvageable MPU200 board. Hate to see the socket replacement go bad that mangles the board.
Find some junky boards and practice pulling through hole chips off of them. Once you can pull chips off and put them back on with out damaging the board, you are ready to tackle that u8 IC socket.

Thanks for the advice. Actually, I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron so don't anticpate any issues replacing the socket. I was thinking of using the "acid bath/toilet bowl cleaner" technique on the bottom of the board as well to neutralize the alkalinity. Just not sure I really want to try to peel the masking off but I guess will see what comes off when I wire brush it.

#171 2 years ago

Any flaky green coating needs to be scraped away so that the acid can reach the corrosion.

Look for areas where it's discolored or bubbling underneath.

1 month later
#172 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Any flaky green coating needs to be scraped away so that the acid can reach the corrosion.
Look for areas where it's discolored or bubbling underneath.

Okay, I finished cleaning it up and am trying to disgnose a locked on led. Documented my test results in my Star Gazer thread: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/star-gazer-rising#post-3556378

Any advice is always appreciated.

#173 2 years ago

Vid, left you a response on my SG thread re: MPU issues.

I initially had my J1 plug on the power board mis-wired and was feeding 7v into the 12v line and vis-a-versa. Of course the SDB failed to output 5v in that configuration.

Once I corrected the plug wiring R50 on the SDB burned up immediately.

The rest of the SDB looks pristine, though it has original caps.

So besides the caps I need to order a replacement for R50. Schematic says it's a 4.7ohm resistor, but no wattage rating is specified. Which wattage should I get?

Also, though everything looks fine, should I go ahead and order replacements for the other components on the same circuit?

IMG_0656 (resized).PNG

#174 2 years ago

It is a quarter Watt resistor. You can even just use a zero ohm jumper there. That small value resistor is used to help increase the 5v voltage.

If r50 burned, I would think that there is a problem with the 5v regulator circuit.

#175 2 years ago
Quoted from barakandl:

It is a quarter Watt resistor. You can even just use a zero ohm jumper there. That small value resistor is used to help increase the 5v voltage.
If r50 burned, I would think that there is a problem with the 5v regulator circuit.

Thanks for the reply.

I noticed that C24 looks a little messed up, could that possibly cause the r50 to fail?

EDIT: I should be able to test the 5v regulator by removing the burnt R50 and measuring the vdc from its positive mounting hole, correct? I'll try that before I replace it.

The voltage regulator is fairly expensive, any tips on where to pick one up?

Thanks again!

1 month later
#176 2 years ago

i am not sure if alot of people are aware but i stock all the axial capacitors on my site and alot of odd stuff that i have made several times a year so its not NOS it is brand new electrolytics plus cap kits for almost every arcade and a ton of pinballs and if there is something you would like please ask i would be happy to look at bringing it in or having it made.

https://www.arcadepartsandrepair.com/
https://www.arcadepartsandrepair.com/product-category/components/capacitors/axial-capacitors/

#179 2 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Better late than never, eh Vid?

There are so many posts on Pinside nowadays that there is no way I could ever keep current, lol

But if someone reads this in the future, they will see that a Bridge Rectifier is a $2 part.

#180 2 years ago

Ok, who has done their homework already.
Got out of the hobby 10 years ago do to work. Finally got around to clear out my old storage.
I'm setting on about (40) Bally/Stern driver boards that accumulated over the years. I want to start rebuilding these and was hoping someone already has the part numbers and a good supplier for parts. Anyone have this already figured out? LMK

#181 2 years ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

Ok, who has done their homework already.
Got out of the hobby 10 years ago do to work. Finally got around to clear out my old storage.
I'm setting on about (40) Bally/Stern driver boards that accumulated over the years. I want to start rebuilding these and was hoping someone already has the part numbers and a good supplier for parts. Anyone have this already figured out? LMK

Everything you need is at GPE

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/

#182 2 years ago

A little costly on some parts (C23) $9.00
Question about C23 cap. Is there a minimum physical size for the cap?

looking at these. 30mm x 40mm
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cornell-Dubilier-CDE/SLPX153M035E7P3/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMukHu%252bjC5l7Ycd%2fH5%252bMxIQfMwrK5rByu5s%3d

#183 2 years ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

A little costly on some parts (C23) $9.00

I think they were $3.50 last time I ordered, but I'm on my phone.

Quoted from arcademojo:

Question about C23 cap. Is there a minimum physical size for the cap?

Size does not matter with caps.

Those snap-cap style will need some wire leads added, but otherwise should be fine.

#184 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I think they were $3.50 last time I ordered, but I'm on my phone.

Size does not matter with caps.
Those snap-cap style will need some wire leads added, but otherwise should be fine.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CER-15000uF-25V

Out of stock.

#185 2 years ago

my kits are all in stock and we are always adding new kits weekly with the best quality caps i specialize in and not that stuff here thats 85c and 1000hr cap. most of my kits use 4000 - 10,000hour caps and even my lowest hour caps are 2000hours and all are at 105C. i am even working on new caps with the eyelets to solder the wire to just like the originals have which is much easier to work with. i stock way over 2 million components/parts/kits and add more every week so keep watching. I ship worldwide too with live shipping rates on the site.

#186 2 years ago

They'll get more.

#187 2 years ago

I have been working on restoring a Paragon. I finally am able to boot the machine and can set credits to launch a game. All switches on the playfield will register points, however only the 3 drop target solenoid works in game. In diagnostic mode the coin lockout, the 3 drop target, and the flipper enable switch are the only solenoids that work.

All coils fire when I touch a ground to the non-banded side of the coil. Q5,6,7,8,9,15,18,19 do not fire when I touch a ground to the transistor. All other transistors will cause the solenoid to fire when touched with a ground wire. No coils or solenoids work in game.

I have posted this elsewhere but thought I would post here since it the topic deals with the SDB. Could it be U2 or one of the CA3081 chips? If is use logic probe on the U2 chip during solenoid diagnostic mode nothing pulses - not sure if that means anything.

#188 2 years ago
Quoted from StratDoc:

All coils fire when I touch a ground to the non-banded side of the coil. Q5,6,7,8,9,15,18,19 do not fire when I touch a ground to the transistor. All other transistors will cause the solenoid to fire when touched with a ground wire. No coils or solenoids work in game.

Probably a connector issue.

You don't have a connection between those transistors and the coils.

Have you replaced J2 and J5 male pin connectors?

Have you replaced the female pins inside the plugs?

#189 2 years ago

Replaced the female pins, the male connctors look fine but I don't have a replacement.

Checked the u2 chip and can make coils fire by grounding the corresponding pin on the IC. Running a new Alltek MPU. Checked the corresponding pins on U2 during solenoid diagnostic that sends signal to SDB. They pulsed correctly high/low.

2 months later
#190 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Here is a list of the minimum bulletproofing needed for a Classic Stern board on the front side:
1. Replace C26 and C23 Caps. These always have to go if they are the silver originals, or if more than 10 years old since being replaced.
2. Add 3/16 amp fuse protection for HV.
3. Replace .156" male pin connectors. These are always tarnished with broken solder joints. They are so cheap, it's not worth trying to clean or resolder them.
4. Replace .1" male pin connectors. These are even worse than the .156" connectors. Trash 'em.
5. Upon first time powering up the board, remember to set the HV to +170V (or lower if the displays will stay lit) using the little thumb wheel in the HV circuit. The lower the voltage, the longer the displays will last.
The only exception to this rule is if you have installed BRAND NEW display glass; because new displays will probably require +190V for a few hours until they break themselves in. After a few hours of play, turn the HV back down to +170V (or lower).
Remember this is high voltage - use care!

That fuse holder almost looks like it belongs there, yes?

This might be dumb, but can the HV section bite you with the power off and game unplugged? I'm about to bulletproof one of these for the first time and wasn't sure if it was like the anodes on old CRTs that can still knock you on your ass even after they've been off.

#191 2 years ago
Quoted from ShootForSlrValue:

This might be dumb, but can the HV section bite you with the power off and game unplugged? I'm about to bulletproof one of these for the first time and wasn't sure if it was like the anodes on old CRTs that can still knock you on your ass even after they've been off.

CRTs had higher voltages and the older ones did not have resistors to drain the caps - so they could get you decades latter.

Generally, the displays in a pinball drain off the last juice, but there could be some circuit board somewhere that when charged on a benchtop that might hold a charge.

So if the boards are in a game, you can be reasonably certain that the displays have discharged the caps.

If in doubt, on some oddball game, check with your meter.

#192 2 years ago

Thanks, vid. Just wanted to clarify. My first-born is due any day now, and I want to be sure I'm around for the party!

7 months later
#193 1 year ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Replace any blackened fuse clips. No, you can't clean them. Once they get hot and corroded enough to turn black, they lose their tension. Use HIGH CURRENT clips here, Great Plains Part Number: 1A1907-03.
Now it's time to test your work.
Rather than blowing up the rest of your boards, it's best to test outside of the game, on the bench.
Connector J2, pins #6&7 take the line voltage (115VAC here in the USA).
Using an old power cord, crimp together a connector you can use for all your Classic Bally servicing.
There are two sources of high voltage, the line voltage (115VAC) and the display voltage (190VDC) - so you need to be careful as you work. Remember that the transformer is ready to shock the careless tech too.
TP1 - (4.6 - 6.4VDC) this is protected by the F1 fuse, and is Bridge Rectifier #1. This supplies voltage to the switched lamps.
TP2 - (160-250VDC) This is protected by fuse F2, and is the group of diodes CR1-4. This supplies the voltage to the displays.
TP3 - (11-16VDC) Fuse F3, Bridge Rectifier #2. This latter becomes the 5VDC that powers the game's logic circuits on the Solenoid Driver Board.
TP4 - (6.3 to 8VAC) Fuse F5. This is the GI lighting circuit.
TP5 - (40-49VDC ) Fuse F4, Bridge Rectifier #3. This powers all the coils in the game.
=====================================================
Q: Vid, I don't like the big range of possible voltages. Why are they not just nice even numbers like 6v or 12v?
A: Remember these are Unregulated Voltages. No capacitors or voltage regulators have touched the voltages yet. So depending on your home's line voltage, there can be some big swings in the actual numbers.

Hi vid1900, thanks for this tutorial! I rebuilt my Bally Harlem GlobeTrotters rectifier board and implemented all the bullet-proofing ideas you suggested. One question: why does the 230VDC read low? I power my transformer / rectifier unit on my bench and all the voltages checked ok except TP2 which reads between 150-170VDC. I am getting the correct AC voltage into and out of the transformer block (120VAC in and 173VAC out). I noticed the resistor R3 is an 80kohm whereas the schematic calls for a 100kohm. I would think a bigger resistor would cause a lower voltage out so this would not be the issue. Is there something in this circuit that could be pulling the 230 dc voltage down? I am concerned that one of the didoes might have been exposed to high heat while installing it and testing powering it on...

1 week later
#194 1 year ago

I am trying to bring a globetrotter back to life. New voltage reg board, all tps within spec on it. But when I plug in the solenoid board I am getting 4.0v instead of 5.0 at tp1. I replaced c23 but not c26 yet. Do you think that could that be it?

IMG_0020 (resized).JPG

IMG_0021 (resized).JPG

#195 1 year ago
Quoted from mark532011:

I am trying to bring a globetrotter back to life. New voltage reg board, all tps within spec on it. But when I plug in the solenoid board I am getting 4.0v instead of 5.0 at tp1. I replaced c23 but not c26 yet. Do you think that could that be it?

Did you tie TP1 & TP3 together, C23 neg to ground ?

#196 1 year ago
Quoted from mark532011:

I am trying to bring a globetrotter back to life. New voltage reg board, all tps within spec on it. But when I plug in the solenoid board I am getting 4.0v instead of 5.0 at tp1. I replaced c23 but not c26 yet. Do you think that could that be it?

No c26 is part of the high voltage circuit.. not the 5v circuit.

Your 12v to 5v regulator is probably bad. Check the resistors in the 5v generator circuit... but those are unlikely the problem. Check the schematic for the 5v circuit. (The area around tp1). The 12v input is fed to the regulator... which outputs 5vdc

1 year later
#197 5 months ago

Not having much luck finding a source for these ceramic capacitors for my Seawitch board. Anybody have a source or know of an acceptable substitution that is readily available?

20181220_112338 (resized).jpg
#198 5 months ago

Modern values are now .0022 uf instead of .002 uf. Great Plains has it:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=5

Scroll down to # CCD-0.0022uf-1kv That's what you need.

#199 5 months ago
Quoted from KenLayton:

Modern values are now .0022 uf instead of .002 uf. Great Plains has it:
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=5
Scroll down to # CCD-0.0022uf-1kv That's what you need.

Thank you, Ken!

3 weeks later
#200 4 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

On the back we always need to:
1. Tie C23's Negative lead to ground. Use a short length of insulated wire.
2. Tie C26's Negative lead to ground. This can be done with the excess leg from the new cap - so don't trim it until you tie it in.
3. Tie Test Point #1 to Test Point #3.
4. Repair any missing traces or damaged foil.
[quoted image]

I should shut up and stay in bed. I have repaired well over one hundred of the -22, -16, and the early Stern SDU 100's. I have had them come in with all manner of burns some very severe. But that forgen little fuse was fine, it didn't do sh!t. I know nobody replaced it before I got it because back then you couldn't find one of them to save your life. So why bother adding that fuse? Just for looks I guess, but now it doesn't match the manual unless you go as far as putting an addendum in there. Of all the games I have sold over the years I only had one customer ask about the grounding mods on the driver board. He thought they were hacks. c'est la vie.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 16.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
$ 21.00
€ 3.95
Flipper Parts
Multigame
1,000 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Lodi, WI
From: $ 45.00
Displays
PinballSolutions.eu
Trade
Machine - For Trade
San Mateo, CA
$ 279.95
From: $ 169.95
$ 30.00
Electronics
Third Coast Pinball
$ 12.00
There are 200 posts in this topic. You are on page 4 of 4.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside