Sana'a
Let me know if you see any Comet playfields from CPR
Thanks,
Vid
(Topic ID: 220072)
Quoted from radium:vid1900 So you install the star rollover insert AFTER you put on the hardtop? I’m guessing so that it’s flush with the hardtop. I wouldn’t have thought of this!
Exactly.
Not only is it flush, but it's registration is perfect.
The number one question I got when the guys at the shop saw this was "Won't the flippers drag if the playfield is .03" thicker?"
With the worn out bushings and flippers from the old game, it was really close.
But here, with new Bushings and Flippers, you can see that there is plenty of clearance:
42 (resized).jpg
1 week later
Here you can see some important finishing details:
1. The tops of the LED bulbs have been sanded with 120g paper.
This defuses the light so you get less hotspotting through the plastics.
These bulbs were Comet (what else would you use on a Comet?) LEDs in Warm White
http://www.cometpinball.com/product-p/2smd.htm
2. The red original plastic star posts have been replaced by clear ones. The clear allow more light to shine onto the playfield than the dark reds.
3. The rubbers have all been replaced with translucent silicone. Again, this is part of the effort to get every bit of available light transferred to the playfield.
These were made by Titan:
https://www.titanpinball.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=33&product_id=52
4. Note the plastic protectors under the post nuts. If you are reading this, you probably know that unbroken Comet plastics are rarer than Amish school shootings.
Make sure that all plastics in direct line of fire from Flippers or Pops are protected.
Remember that the protectors go UNDER the post nuts. This gives a buffer zone to defuse the energy, rather than transfer it to the fragile plastics.
The Slingshot Bases and Linkages are worn out for sure.
It can be hard to find the old style Slingshot Arms, often everyone is out of stock, so you might have to reuse the old ones.
The newer style Bases fit, but the newer style Linkages are thicker than the old ones.
So take the new style Plunger and Linkage apart.
Tap the Roll Pin with a punch to remove the Linkage. You don't have to take the Roll Pin all the way out, just enough to remove the Linkage.
Put a piece of 120g sandpaper face up on a table and sand the plastic Linkage thickness down a little until it freely spins on the Kicker Arm. Test and reassemble.
Put 1/10 of a drop of oil in the hole where the base pivot goes. This is another metal to metal wear point.
Install under the playfield. Don't forget that the scoring switch is run through the Base.
55 (resized).jpg 56 (resized).jpg
Clean the scoring switch by drawing a crisp $100 bill through the contacts. Replace the Coil Sleeve.
Removing all the slop from the Slingshots by replacing the worn parts REALLY puts some life back into the game. Don't forget to do this in your haste to get the game back together.
=
Plunger and Linkage:
https://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=657
Base:
Cranford, NJ
Quoted from vid1900:1. The tops of the LED bulbs have been sanded with 120g paper.
This defuses the light so you get less hotspotting through the plastics.
Does that work well with the backglass also? I remember you mentioned somewhere that the LEDs tend to wash out the Comet backglass. Mine came with LEDs, and the previous owner mentioned he had some over heating issues that went away when he put the LEDs in the head. So I'm a bit reluctant to go back to the incandescent bulbs.
On another note cpr just announced (30 min ago) that the repro plastics are on their site for $129. Not sure why they dumped the leftovers on eBay about a month ago, lucked out and got a set for $80-something. Used a few that I needed and holding the rest for now. Guess I really don't really NEED to amymore.
Quoted from jaytrem:Does that work well with the backglass also? I remember you mentioned somewhere that the LEDs tend to wash out the Comet backglass. Mine came with LEDs, and the previous owner mentioned he had some over heating issues that went away when he put the LEDs in the head. So I'm a bit reluctant to go back to the incandescent bulbs.
Just do the #47 bulbs, they draw 1/2 the current of the #44 bulbs.
No overheating, and the colors will be rich and great looking.
Quoted from vid1900:Just do the #47 bulbs, they draw 1/2 the current of the #44 bulbs.
No overheating, and the colors will be rich and great looking.
Thanks, I'll give that a try and post some before/after pics. Might have enough on hand already, so hopefully tomorrow.
When adding extra LED lighting, you have to be clever.
Hell no to Spotlights. That looks totally out of place, like a modern Stern game.
LEDs running down the length of the playfield looks like a Crane Game at Chuck E Cheeses, so that's not going to work.
Any installation that I can see the LED strips is obviously out.
=
Here I've hid a defused (frosted) LED strip under the metal ball deflector over the Rabbits.
Totally invisible, yet delivers excellent, defused lighting in an area normally only lit by 2 bulbs.
These things get hot, so attaching them to metal is a good way to sink the heat away from them and make them last longer.
http://www.cometpinball.com/MATRIX-20-SMD-5050-6-3V-LIGHTED-STRIPS-p/20smd6.3vstrip.htm
57 (resized).jpg
Here behind the Ducks, I have two LED strips.
Note that they are facing the center of the playfield, NOT up at the plastics.
I ran a length of Aluminum Foil Tape along the wood, hidden under the plastics.
The Aluminum Foil is reflective, putting more light out to the playfield; and it sinks away the heat from the LED strips. Win/win.
Note here you can see that I notched one of the plastic post protectors that was too big with the ball guide next to it. I just nipped it with a pair of wire cutters.
The Aluminum Tape is made for hot ductwork (like your hot water heater vent) so it will not peel off when heated by the LED strips. It's at Homedepot in the isle with the insulation, not in the tape isle for some reason.
I also hid LED strips under the metal Cycle Jump ramp, under the Comet ramp, and along the metal guides under the Million shot plastic. None of them are visible to the player.
No blinding GI lighting where you can see the light source, no crazy bright inserts, just natural looking lighting.
It's impossible to take a picture of a LED lit playfield, but this will give you some idea of the evenness of the illumination with all the lights off in the room.
59 (resized).jpg
Holy smokes! Another great thread! I have zero interest in hardtops (at this time), but opened the thread as it was one of your guides.
Thanks for the fantastic tips on rebuilding the slingshot arms and adding illumination in ways that are actually tasteful.
I always learn something from your threads! 
All the Stainless guides and Ramps were buffed out to a mirror finish on a stationary buffing wheel.
All the metal posts and other hardware were tumbled overnight.
All the ramps were supplied by Freeplay40 except the center Comet ramp.
The Comet ramp was polished out on a wheel using Novus2. The Novus removed all the yellow nicotine and left it looking new.
All the ramps and guides got a coat of Blitz Wax before installation.
60 (resized).jpg
Quoted from vid1900:I also hid LED strips under the metal Cycle Jump ramp, under the Comet ramp, and along the metal guides under the Million shot plastic. None of them are visible to the player.
No blinding GI lighting where you can see the light source, no crazy bright inserts, just natural looking lighting.
It's impossible to take a picture of a LED lit playfield, but this will give you some idea of the evenness of the illumination with all the lights off in the room.
Quoted from vid1900:The Freeplay40 ramps are much better made than the paper thin Williams originals.
Look better too, lol
Can’t wait for him to do the main ramp. That’s the final thing I’m missing to start my restore!
Quoted from Axl:Now on to the important question, how does it play?
It plays about 50% faster than any Comet you have ever played.
Even when they were new, they were Mylar-ed, so they just never had that quickness of other games.
With the Hardtop, sometimes the ball is simply gone. You look around and it drained without you even seeing it, lol.
Dunking the Dummy is now a hard task because if you shoot it from the Left Flipper, it may just drain without any time to react and correct it.
A gentle tap toss from the Right is much safer, but that's harder to set up with no inlane on the right side.
I tried to make a video but there is no way to play it with the glass off. The ball simply leaves the game.
If someone does a 4k video, they are going to need to make a couple of clear ramp guides for the Comet and Cycle Jump.
The Corkscrew is now an easy task. Hit the Funhouse saucer, when the ball ejects to the Right Flipper, the trajectory is perfect and you can hit it every time. The playfield's slick surface allows the ball plenty of momentum to complete it.
When you soft plunge to score the 1986 at the top, you have to REALLY soft plunge. Even the slightest bit of wind up sends the ball through the Corkscrew.
The ball save lane on the left side is probably too fast to be fair. If you are not a great player, you have my permission to double up on the rubber for the lane divider or move the front post to the Easy position. (remember that originally, this lane divider was single sided, so the rubber would slow the ball down enough to bump it back into play. Since they don't sell that size single sided divider anymore, score a normal divider with a razor knife, then snap the fin off with pliers. Now you have the proper divider. Safety glasses while snapping, of course .....)
Note that the INSIDE of the lane divider has been sanded with 120g sandpaper in order to defuse the light coming from that bulb.
The new dividers seem to be of a clearer, more translucent plastic - and of course the LEDs are brighter than an old #47 bulb.
The sanding makes it bearable.
FINAL CONCLUSIONS
------------------------------
------------------------------
Like anything there are Pros and Cons:
CONS:
1. A lot more work than a normal playfield swap.
Scraping and sanding the inserts, sanding and painting shooter lane, Sanding and painting saucer holes, clearing over inserts & kickout holes and the shooter lane.
Adjusting all the switches to register with the thicker playfield.
Cutting out all the Hardtop for Star Rollover switches (think of Starlight or Strikes & Spares!).
Shimming up Ramps and Drop Targets for smooth transitions.
Removing Mylar and it's glue.
2. It's not repairable.
If you get a ghosted insert below the Hardtop, you are SOL
If you get a piece of crud between an insert and the Hardtop, you are SOL
If you get a piece of crud between the Hardtop and the Playfield, you will have a big bump.
If you mis-apply the Hardtop, you can't reposition it. You really have to make sure you clamp it before peeling it.
3. Alignment is not perfect.
You will probably have to split the difference somewhere along the inserts.
If wood is showing along an insert edge, you will have to paint the wood black before installation.
4. Faded or cracked inserts will still be faded and cracked.
5. If you over-tighten posts, they will make a hill around themselves by distorting the Hardtop.
6. Expensive.
These Hardtops are half the cost of a conventional reproduction playfield.
7. No one will be fooled that this is an original or reproduction playfield.
The inserts **look** like they are below the surface, especially when unlit.
8. The original playfield is ruined beyond restoration.
There is no peeling up the Hardtop like you can with a Vinyl Overlay.
Once the inserts and the surrounding wood are sanded, you can't ever go back.
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PROS:
1. Saves mega time over conventional playfield restoration job.
2. Cupped inserts can be ignored (although I would personally level them).
3. Game plays so fast after installation that it's a whole new game requiring new strategies. I can't even imagine how fast SBM plays with this installed.
4. Glasslike surface will never wear through in a home setting (and probably never in a commercial setting either).
5. Balls roll quietly along without deflection from insert edges.
6. Game will be easier to clean without cracks and places for dust to hide.
7. On games that never will be remade with a conventional playfields, these Hardtops are a lifesaver.
8. On inexpensive games like Comet, it might be the most cost effective choice.
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So what's my final verdict?
"Recommend with Reservations"
You will LOVE the play, you will HATE the amount of work required to install it.
Enjoy!
Great summary, thanks for posting the whole thread. Like I said before, I do wish this thread existed before I did mine. But I'm very happy with the way mine turned out, especially since I'm very much a novice. Main thing I would have done different is some lighting stuff, but those can always be done later. The actual hardtop install went great.
I did get the 47 lights in the head today (along with about 8 44s). It does look significantly better to the naked eye. Doesn't really show in the pics though, so I won't bother posting. I'll pick up the rest of the 47s on my next order. Thanks again for the advice.
Quoted from jaytrem:I did get the 47 lights in the head today (along with about 8 44s). It does look significantly better to the naked eye. Doesn't really show in the pics though, so I won't bother posting. I'll pick up the rest of the 47s on my next order. Thanks again for the advice.
Excellent, glad to hear it!
I've got probably 50 different LEDs including a bunch of eval prototypes that are supposedly Warm White.
None of them will light the Comet backglass without it looking like a turd.
1 month later
Quoted from grantopia:Are you sanding by hand or with a palm sander? I'm going to hardtop a Taxi this fall so this is very helpful. Just wondering how to keep all the sanded off "dust" out of everything below the playfield? Go slow and shopvac as you go? It seems like I'm going to have stuff flying everywhere in there...
Lots of random orbit sanders have dust port which accept a shop vac hose - it will make life much better for you! Festool is the expensive industry leader for this, but other companies are getting wise now too. You want one that takes a smaller diameter, more flexible hose.
A 2 1/2" hose is literally a drag to use while sanding.
1 week later
I just installed a Hardtop on my Evel Knievel and it turned out really nice.
I want to thank vid1900 on the suggestion on pulling off the plastic that cover the front of the Hardtop so that you can better line up the insert areas.
When I did that on mine I noticed that the clear insert areas on the Hardtop were very hazy and that would have shown thru after install. I spent the extra time to clean all of the clear insert areas on the Hardtop to make sure they were crystal clear. Took a little extra time but well worth the effort. Make sure you check that before you install or you will wish you had.
Cheers!!
3 weeks later
Quoted from vid1900:4. Glasslike surface will never wear through in a home setting (and probably never in a commercial setting either).
Is the playing surface of the hardtop as hard or harder than clear? Is there a reason to clear over it?
Pickering, ON
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:Is the playing surface of the hardtop as hard or harder than clear? Is there a reason to clear over it?
Absolutely no reason to clear over it. I would think it would be detrimental to the playing surface if you did and it would probably flake off.
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:Is the playing surface of the hardtop as hard or harder than clear? Is there a reason to clear over it?
DO NOT CLEAR over a HARDTOP!!!!!!
Quoted from Skypilot:DO NOT CLEAR over a HARDTOP!!!!!!
That's it, now I gotta clear my Comet just to see what happens. I just can't resist!!!
Quoted from kilmarnock1350:Is the playing surface of the hardtop as hard or harder than clear? Is there a reason to clear over it?
It's softer than clear, so if you clear over it, the clear will ghost (or maybe even chip off).
It's fine how it is, no need at all to clear over it.
Quoted from vid1900:It's softer than clear
No, it is not. At least the surface is definitely not. Hardtops are a poly-carbonate that has been treated with a specific scratch-resistant coating. This coated product along with a high-end clearcoat was sent to a laboratory that does this type of testing for commercial manufacturers and both were tested. The Hardtop results put it well above clear coat. It would be like painting a Steinway piano with a can of Rustoleum clear. 
Vid is a great asset to this community and extremely knowledgeable, but if you have specific questions on this product I feel you need to ask the manufacturer. No disrespect.
Direct from Outsidedge:
This is NOT a new playfield. This is also NOT a thin decal.
This is a high-quality extremely durable alternative for a game where a replacement playfield may not be currently available (or possibly never will be!). Once installed, the colors are brilliant, the surface is seamless, and the playing experience is fantastic.
High-quality licensed art is printed on the bottom side of the clear PETG material so it can't wear off
The .030 thick material creates a perfectly flat and smooth playing surface
The entire playfield is topped with an extremely durable clear coating for superior abrasion resistance
Aggressive permanent adhesive ensures it attaches securely and lays flat
Completely cut and ready to install
"Custom coating is harder than a playfield clear coat."
Quoted from Skypilot:No, it is not. At least the surface is definitely not. Hardtops are a poly-carbonate that has been treated with a specific scratch-resistant coating. This coated product along with a high-end clearcoat was sent to a laboratory that does this type of testing for commercial manufacturers and both were tested. The Hardtop results put it well above clear coat. It would be like painting a Steinway piano with a can of Rustoleum clear.
Vid is a great asset to this community and extremely knowledgeable, but if you have specific questions on this product I feel you need to ask the manufacturer. No disrespect.
I can only go by what I see.
When I put a scratch under the apron to see if I could buff it out like a normal playfield, it was softer than the 2Pac I always use.
A hardened drop of clear, roughly the same thickness, is also stiffer than the hardtop.
None of that is necessarily a negative, it just is what it is.
1 month later
Quoted from aeonblack:Great thread, will be a big help when I do mine. Thanks vid!
Are you doing a Comet or a different machine? I moved my Comet to my Mom's house yesterday, there's a lot less light there. Definitely going to redo the pop bumper lights as seen above.
Quoted from jaytrem:Are you doing a Comet or a different machine? I moved my Comet to my Mom's house yesterday, there's a lot less light there. Definitely going to redo the pop bumper lights as seen above.
Different machine, I'll be doing a Flash Gordon if that one runs anytime soon. It's going to be an undertaking for sure, but it will be interesting to see how it compares to a full playfield swap. I like the idea of not needing to remove absolutely everything. The Star rollovers on FG is the only part I'm worried about.
Quoted from aeonblack:The Star rollovers on FG is the only part I'm worried about.
I was also a little concerned about that, turned out to be super easy with the dremmel tool. I practiced on the side of the hardtop to get the feel of the plastic grinding down. It was hanging over the edge a bit when I lined it up, so needed to be done anyway.
Is the clear coat step necessary? Seems like you wouldn’t need to do this. Wouldn’t the 3M product adhere better to the bare wood?
Quoted from kermit24:Is the clear coat step necessary? Seems like you wouldn’t need to do this. Wouldn’t the 3M product adhere better to the bare wood?
I’ve never met a sticker that wanted to stick permanently to bare wood. You want a smooth nonporous surface, wood can be to porous. As an analogy, check out all the threads from HEP where he first paints the cabinet and then applies the vinyl side art. The freshly painted surface helps the side art adhere.....
I only cleared my inserts. Pretty sure the hardtop isn't going to move any time soon.
One tip that somebody mentioned in a hardtop thread was to be sure to clean the backside of the hardtop "inserts" before installation. I didn't do that, but they look fine. Better safe that sorry, especially if you had it out of the packing plastic at all.
Quoted from vid1900:7. No one will be fooled that this is an original or reproduction playfield.
The inserts **look** like they are below the surface, especially when unlit.
Any pictures to show how bad/obvious this looks?
See Vids pic in post #64 in this thread. That "1" insert is a pretty good example. Looks good, but you can tell something is "not quite right". No doubt that the insert is sunken a bit. One other thing I notice is when some inserts are lit, the light shines through the black writing a little bit. I guess I could use less bright LEDs but it seems like the insert decals on my other machines do a better job. Also the inserts with no design look better on my Comet, like the ones in front of the motorcycle jump. I see the Evel Knievel above has a lot of those, so should look pretty good. All that being said, I think it's an amazing product and wouldn't hesitate doing it again if I had another super crappy playfield.
2 weeks later
So glad I've followed your guide.
#1. Great opportunity to get my feet wet clear coating playfields. 1st Clear Coat session went amazingly well.
#2. I would not of thought to restore the shooter lane and eject holes. Both look amazing now. Though will probably have
to put another layer of Clear Coat down to be 100% happy. I think another coat of 2Pace will make up for the some of the grime and
wood that got took away. Wood seemed to absorb more clear at bottom of trough then I thought it would.
Sure beats the "Worn out Yellowed ugly shooter lane I started with".
I've taken photos and plan on sharing my "Space Shuttle Hardtop experience" hopefully I will get critiqued when I get around to it.
Regardless. Don't take shortcuts they will forever haunt you.
1 week later
Been working on sanding down Flash Gordon for a hard tip install. Using 220g on an orbital sander like vid. Have all the art work off and everything is level, but the inserts have this “crackling” appearance. Worried to keep going with it. Will this disappear with the clear coat?
3FB76263-AD4B-401C-AB43-125ACEFE8D5E (resized).jpegC25520E3-932D-48C5-BAE3-6A398A9A49B9 (resized).jpegQuoted from Spraynard:Been working on sanding down Flash Gordon for a hard tip install. Using 220g on an orbital sander like vid. Have all the art work off and everything is level, but the inserts have this “crackling” appearance. Worried to keep going with it. Will this disappear with the clear coat?
[quoted image][quoted image]
I have this too on my FG. The crackling goes pretty deep and I assumed it will not sand out. Haven’t checked if replacement inserts are available but I’m willing to do that if so.
Keep us updated on your restore!
Quoted from Spraynard:Been working on sanding down Flash Gordon for a hard tip install. Using 220g on an orbital sander like vid. Have all the art work off and everything is level, but the inserts have this “crackling” appearance. Worried to keep going with it. Will this disappear with the clear coat?
[quoted image][quoted image]
Quoted from radium:I have this too on my FG. The crackling goes pretty deep and I assumed it will not sand out. Haven’t checked if replacement inserts are available but I’m willing to do that if so.
Keep us updated on your restore!
Same issue on mine, will be looking at getting new inserts when the time comes.......
Quoted from Spraynard:Have all the art work off and everything is level, but the inserts have this “crackling” appearance. Worried to keep going with it. Will this disappear with the clear coat?
That's totally normal, and the crackling will be even more pronounced when you clear over it.
They have always been there, you just never could see them through the old, cloudy wood sealer and clearcoat that Williams used to use.
Even if you buy brand new inserts, once you sand them flat and clear them, 50% of the time they will show the same crackling as the old ones.
Quoted from vid1900:That's totally normal, and the crackling will be even more pronounced when you clear over it.
They have always been there, you just never could see them through the old, cloudy clearcoat that Williams used to use.
Even if you buy brand new inserts, once you sand them flat and clear them, 50% of the time they will show the same crackling as the old ones.
Ok thank you all this is very helpful! What I’m hearing is, this is normal and don’t waste your time replacing the inserts.
Thank you so much for this thread, @vid1900. It’s been an invaluable resource in this process.
Quoted from vid1900:That's totally normal, and the crackling will be even more pronounced when you clear over it.
They have always been there, you just never could see them through the old, cloudy clearcoat that Williams used to use.
Even if you buy brand new inserts, once you sand them flat and clear them, 50% of the time they will show the same crackling as the old ones.
I've seen it even on brand new CPR playfields 
Quoted from zacaj:I've seen it even on brand new CPR playfields
Absolutely.
It's not a defect.
Probably 40% of all Williams inserts have it, but the OEM playfield clear is too milky to see it. But every playfield restorer has seen it when they sand off the cloudy junk and put crystal clear 2PAC on instead.
2 weeks later
I installed my hardtop last night, and it went great. I wet sanded the inserts down to 2400 grit, and they look fantastic.
As I've begun the process of repopulating the playfield, I've noticed one problem-- the bottom of the metal ramp to the million point shot is slightly lower than the surface of the playfield. Has anyone else noticed this? Did it effect game play? I was thinking about making a flap out of a piece of spring steel. Thoughts?
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