(Topic ID: 344976)

Venom Code Suggestions

By BriannaWu

9 months ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 15 posts
  • 8 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by rai
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 9 months ago

I’m almost 200 games into Venom LE. As the code develops, I’d like to suggest gameplay changes that I think would make this stronger.

1. You should not have to restart boss battles from the beginning if you drain. The Knull battle is the worst example of this. Even at level 98 with all the paths saved, you have to do so many shots in a row - I think this is beyond the ability of most players. Have it save the last phase you got to, or even roll it back by one.

The core design idea of Venom should be anyone can beat it if they play long enough. The extreme difficulty of the Knull battle is at odds with this.

2. The secret hideout skill shot should not override and cancel the mini mode skill shot. This is the most consistent way to feed the ball to the right flipper.

3. More frames of animation for the character select screen. The core art design is stellar, but the lack of frames makes it seem very juttery and low rent.

4. Carnage multiball should also be cancelable with the action button. The extreme flipper fade of venom means launching into multiball should be done judiciously.

5. Going into a multiball mode should not remove an active minimode second shot on the table. This would open really interesting tactics, like starting 2 or 3 minimode shots and going into multiball.

6. Failing a boss should not erase all the nodes on a path. Removing one or even two would make stacking minimode bonuses from adjacent hosts more viable.

I realize that all these code changes would make this game easier. But I think stern has so many super hard games, like TMNT and JB 60th, having one accessible game for players of all skills is a worthwhile goal. The challenge is still there for players doing a speedrun or starting from level 1.

#2 9 months ago

I think #6 is the one that stands out to me as it does feel extra punishing. It feels like losing twice.

#3 9 months ago
Quoted from Waxx:

I think #6 is the one that stands out to me as it does feel extra punishing. It feels like losing twice.

Yeah, it’s really demoralizing. If you removed that, you could do a second host after drain, stack bonuses and feel like you have an edge.

#4 9 months ago

I do wanna say that I'm fine with most of this, but I kind of like restarting boss battles from the beginning. When I finally beat Knull the first time (Around 60 games in) it felt really amazing and I felt super accomplished.

At lv 98 you only need one or two shots per phase, and if you get flamethrower I think you only need one shot on each phase except 5, also with extended Ball Saver box you can easily have ball save into phase 3 or 4. and 5 starts a multiball with its own ballsaver.

I do think implementing six and two would be a good compromise and mean that it's not unreasonable to fight Knull on each of three balls. I was already getting to the point where I could get all three mini modes done on most balls and I am not an exceptional player. I like that the last boss feels so epic and grand and it is a challenge so when you get your unlockable character you feel like you earned it.

I think Grendel and Knull should both feel pretty hard and like humps you have to get over in your progress. Also if you're having enough trouble with Knull you can always earn a Hybrid by doing all four mini bosses and take that into the battle. If you abuse ball saver for phases 1 + 2 you can try to beat three use Hybrid to cheese 4 and have ballsaver again for 5 and pretty much guarantee a kill.

Also don't forget you can use Spider-Sense once per ball which gives you a free super attack if you hit the hurry-up. That usually takes down an entire phase for Knull.

I also do think that five should definitely be mandatory and I'd love if you could earn mini modes in multiball because then I'd cancel it much less often.

Also I'd be fine with non-restart bosses as an option, but I'd definitely prefer if factory default/location standard remained restart boss.

1 week later
#5 8 months ago

I have been playing although slowly and still on the fist speed run.

I would like this option. Currently once you beat a minor boss you don't see him again until you defeat Knull. This was done so that the players would be able to play and defeat Grendel and Knull more easily. I understand this, but the way it's playing out for me is that I beat the 4 minor bosses all within the first hour of play (or so) then I've been playing nothing but Grendel and then Knull. You will know that Grendel and Knull are more difficult to beat. So my point is that let's say I've played 130 games maybe I haven't seen a minor boss since game 30.

I know maybe I'll get quicker once I get one Knull under my belt but the point to me is that now when I play it just feels like light the grid and fight Knull and it seems very much like there is nothing to do. I would say it would be like playing DP and after the first 10 games all the battles and all the quests are not available to play until you beat the higher level. I understand DP is not a saved progress game but just that it would seem like there wasn't much to do with the 5 battle modes removed.

My suggestion is that once you battle Grendel or Knull and lose it will reset one under boss as a punishment. This will allow the lower boss battles to be played more often.

I suggest this could be an option, it doesn't need to be the default which can be just the way it is now, that is all battles are permanently completed until you beat Knull and everything resets. But you could have the option to re-spawn one boss (or multiple) when you lose to Grendel or Knull.

I think this will be preferable to some bad players who might play a minor boss a few times and then they are defeated for the next 50 games (or more) also could be preferred for a great player who wants more challange. I read that some guy has beaten Knull already 4-5 times and feel like they've seen everything. Maybe with minor bosses respawn (option) it might feel like a more full game.

Also I'd like to see the motor bosses somewhat more difficult to beat when you are at high levels. I had played one way and was playing Grendel and a lot of games before trying out different characters so when I did play some of the minor boss I was at level 70-80 and thought the battle was way too easy. I know it's suppose dot be somewhat easier at higher and higher levels but don't think it should be so easy that it's over in 3-4 shots. I can't remember exactly because it's been a long time but it seemed way too easy to beat when I was a very high level. I don't think I mean to make it permanently harder because what if I get to the boss at level 10 instead of 70, I would expect the lower bosses to be hard like the DP battle modes but when you are level 20+ easier but never so easy that it would be over in just 3-4 shots.

#6 8 months ago
Quoted from rai:

I have been playing although slowly and still on the fist speed run.
I would like this option. Currently once you beat a minor boss you don't see him again until you defeat Knull. This was done so that the players would be able to play and defeat Grendel and Knull more easily. I understand this, but the way it's playing out for me is that I beat the 4 minor bosses all within the first hour of play (or so) then I've been playing nothing but Grendel and then Knull. You will know that Grendel and Knull are more difficult to beat. So my point is that let's say I've played 130 games maybe I haven't seen a minor boss since game 30.
I know maybe I'll get quicker once I get one Knull under my belt but the point to me is that now when I play it just feels like light the grid and fight Knull and it seems very much like there is nothing to do. I would say it would be like playing DP and after the first 10 games all the battles and all the quests are not available to play until you beat the higher level. I understand DP is not a saved progress game but just that it would seem like there wasn't much to do with the 5 battle modes removed.
My suggestion is that once you battle Grendel or Knull and lose it will reset one under boss as a punishment. This will allow the lower boss battles to be played more often.
I suggest this could be an option, it doesn't need to be the default which can be just the way it is now, that is all battles are permanently completed until you beat Knull and everything resets. But you could have the option to re-spawn one boss (or multiple) when you lose to Grendel or Knull.
I think this will be preferable to some bad players who might play a minor boss a few times and then they are defeated for the next 50 games (or more) also could be preferred for a great player who wants more challange. I read that some guy has beaten Knull already 4-5 times and feel like they've seen everything. Maybe with minor bosses respawn (option) it might feel like a more full game.
Also I'd like to see the motor bosses somewhat more difficult to beat when you are at high levels. I had played one way and was playing Grendel and a lot of games before trying out different characters so when I did play some of the minor boss I was at level 70-80 and thought the battle was way too easy. I know it's suppose dot be somewhat easier at higher and higher levels but don't think it should be so easy that it's over in 3-4 shots. I can't remember exactly because it's been a long time but it seemed way too easy to beat when I was a very high level. I don't think I mean to make it permanently harder because what if I get to the boss at level 10 instead of 70, I would expect the lower bosses to be hard like the DP battle modes but when you are level 20+ easier but never so easy that it would be over in just 3-4 shots.

I like those suggestions and when I watched some of the first gameplay streams, I initially thought you would have to beat ALL the mini bosses before you could fight Grendel or Knull.

Perhaps they could make that as an option or setting to where you have to beat all the mini bosses then you are able to fight Grendel then the maybe the mini bosses reset and they become difficult (like Deadpool) and you have to beat them all again before Knull? Also you could have it where you can only battle Knull if all the Carnage and\or Toxin Team Ups?

Regarding mini bosses always staying defeated, maybe a setting that allows a Mini Boss Respawn and allow the option for one or more respawns anytime you are defeated by Grendel or Knull. I agree that at higher levels the bosses should be easier (otherwise what’s the point of getting higher levels) but if they respawn, then at least you have something else to go for vs. just going after Grendel and Knull over and over.

It also seems like it’s pretty easy and quick in a sense to level up to really high levels whereas in RPG games, the higher the level, the more points and time it takes.

I am in no way saying the current rules are not great and innovative as they are, but just maybe some additional settings to be able to customize the gameplay experience that better suits the individual player skill or preference.

I also hope in the future that Insider Connected would allow each individual to keep their own difficulty settings so that when a better player plays a novice player, they can better compete on a more even level per game.

Just my 2 cents.

#7 8 months ago
Quoted from Pinball_Eddie:

I like those suggestions and when I watched some of the first gameplay streams, I initially thought you would have to beat ALL the mini bosses before you could fight Grendel or Knull.
Perhaps they could make that as an option or setting to where you have to beat all the mini bosses then you are able to fight Grendel then the maybe the mini bosses reset and they become difficult (like Deadpool) and you have to beat them all again before Knull? Also you could have it where you can only battle Knull if all the Carnage and\or Toxin Team Ups?

Yes that's a good idea that you have to beat them all to fight Grendel and harder beat them to fight Knull. I fell like the game is lite on code and once you take away the minor boss battles all you are doing is fighting Grendel or Knull over and over.

Also it seems to me when you can beat the bosses on Mayhem MB that was just taking more code out of the game. Like there is not a lot else besides the battles so you should utilize the battles more (like you said make them harder in phase 2 like DP). This and or make them be allowed to re-spawn if you lose to Grendel or Knull.

I am not saying you need to make it re-spawn as default but let it be an option. On SW there is an option to play modes together (stacking) or not allow stacking. I always play with stacking off because I like to feel like I am playing a scene of the movie and not be in two places at once. But I think if people want to stack modes in SW that's fine too, it's just optional whatever someone prefers.

#8 8 months ago
Quoted from Pinball_Eddie:

It also seems like it’s pretty easy and quick in a sense to level up to really high levels whereas in RPG games, the higher the level, the more points and time it takes.
I am in no way saying the current rules are not great and innovative as they are, but just maybe some additional settings to be able to customize the gameplay experience that better suits the individual player skill or preference.

I also hope in the future that Insider Connected would allow each individual to keep their own difficulty settings so that when a better player plays a novice player, they can better compete on a more even level per game.
Just my 2 cents.

I said that in the other thread that it was almost like the levels were flat like if I gained 3-4 levels on game one, then 3-4 on game 2 and so on so after 30-40 games I am topped out at 99 and so XP after that are meaningless.

In AD&D for example it might be easy to get from 1-10 like for example 5000 EP per level but to get form level 10-20 might take 15,000 XP per level and and so on. This gets you out of the weak levels quickly but keeps you gaining levels longer so you don't top out after 60 minutes of a speed run. I don't know maybe when I get better and quicker might not be as big an issue.

#9 8 months ago
Quoted from BriannaWu:

I’m almost 200 games into Venom LE. As the code develops, I’d like to suggest gameplay changes that I think would make this stronger.

5. Going into a multiball mode should not remove an active minimode second shot on the table. This would open really interesting tactics, like starting 2 or 3 minimode shots and going into multiball.
.

I absolutely love this idea. I’m only 20 or so plays in so still getting a feel, but this exact thing came to mind in my last few plays. I second this to the second power of as many powers as possible

#10 8 months ago
Quoted from BriannaWu:

5. Going into a multiball mode should not remove an active minimode second shot on the table. This would open really interesting tactics, like starting 2 or 3 minimode shots and going into multiball.
6. Failing a boss should not erase all the nodes on a path. Removing one or even two would make stacking minimode bonuses from adjacent hosts more viable.

I like both of these, or anything that can help me with mini modes.

I am at a mini mode roadblock sometimes I can hit 1-2 mini modes in a second but then I will be stuck just chasing the next mini mode or get 3 in a row and not be able to get the next 3 in a row to get the flame thrower. So anything that could give me any help would be appreciated.

I already set the mini mode to easy but don't knew what that does, I assume it gives more time until it times out.

#11 8 months ago
Quoted from rai:

I already set the mini mode to easy but don't knew what that does, I assume it gives more time until it times out.

The MINI MODE DIFFICULTY adjustment influences the timer for the 2nd shot of each MINI MODE.
EASY = 15 seconds
MEDIUM (default) = 12 seconds
HARD = 8 seconds

#12 8 months ago
Quoted from CoreyStup:

The MINI MODE DIFFICULTY adjustment influences the timer for the 2nd shot of each MINI MODE.
EASY = 15 seconds
MEDIUM (default) = 12 seconds
HARD = 8 seconds

This is a great idea.

#13 8 months ago
Quoted from BriannaWu:

I’m almost 200 games into Venom LE. As the code develops, I’d like to suggest gameplay changes that I think would make this stronger.
1. You should not have to restart boss battles from the beginning if you drain. The Knull battle is the worst example of this. Even at level 98 with all the paths saved, you have to do so many shots in a row - I think this is beyond the ability of most players. Have it save the last phase you got to, or even roll it back by one.
The core design idea of Venom should be anyone can beat it if they play long enough. The extreme difficulty of the Knull battle is at odds with this.
2. The secret hideout skill shot should not override and cancel the mini mode skill shot. This is the most consistent way to feed the ball to the right flipper.
3. More frames of animation for the character select screen. The core art design is stellar, but the lack of frames makes it seem very juttery and low rent.
4. Carnage multiball should also be cancelable with the action button. The extreme flipper fade of venom means launching into multiball should be done judiciously.
5. Going into a multiball mode should not remove an active minimode second shot on the table. This would open really interesting tactics, like starting 2 or 3 minimode shots and going into multiball.
6. Failing a boss should not erase all the nodes on a path. Removing one or even two would make stacking minimode bonuses from adjacent hosts more viable.
I realize that all these code changes would make this game easier. But I think stern has so many super hard games, like TMNT and JB 60th, having one accessible game for players of all skills is a worthwhile goal. The challenge is still there for players doing a speedrun or starting from level 1.

1. Strong disagree. The length of the battle seems perfect and forces a player to remember the best path for their shots. Making this easier is NOT a good idea IMO considering how few shots it takes during each phase when you arwe fully leveled up.

2. Not a bad idea.

3. Ehhhh, not noticeable to me but I definitely wouldn't call it low rent.

4. Disagree. You can't cancel most MBs on lots of pins. Here, you can already cancel one which is more than the average already.

5. Agree.

6. Disagree. Learn the shots and adapt. It's not that hard if you get good time on the pin. There are many other things you can do to make it easier, including changing the ball count to 10 or extending ball saves. Changing the core code is a bad idea here in order to make things "easier."

This should also be posted in the owner's thread as well.

#14 8 months ago

I’m 100 plays in. Here’s my Code wishlist right now:

Venom wishlist

1. Impossible mode should have its own speed run and unlockable characters.
2. For normal play (non speed runs) it’s unclear how to change hosts. If you do the mini modes for 2 hosts back to back, change host will not be lit. I’m not sure what the qualification is to light change host at this point is as it’s not stated in the rules - it seems the only way to change host is to play a mini boss and/or drain. If this is by design, then perhaps more instruction on what to do with display or call outs?
3. More callouts and voice over support badly needed.
4. Speed up the Scream video mode; at least the first 10 secs. I actually really like the video mode, but the first 15 or so infected is a complete snooze fest. Perhaps a setting for normal/hard?
5. Better way to indicate that some special side modes are active or lit (call outs or display?) The start insert is lit, but it’s hard to tell what it’s lit for. Perhaps a call out when ‘said’ mode is lit?
6. I’d like to see completing rampage, bloodlust, and/or other deep objectives, award a random unlit grid or some other type of in game reward.
7. Host Hurryups: Recommend changing the hurry up combo indicator to the smaller blue arrow to indicate the active host combo. Also, what about some type of reward for doing 2,3,4 host hurryups in one game? Award multiplier? unlock Hybrid?

#15 8 months ago

Should have more fanfare and animation, sounds when doing Blood lust, toxic team up etc. Often times it’s not clear when you’re in these special modes except for the intro.

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