(Topic ID: 252879)

Value of machines with HARDTOP installed?

By too-many-pins

4 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 160 posts
  • 59 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by chuckwurt
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Value of machines with HARDTOP installed?”

    • Machine with a hardtop is worth about the same as a machine with a nice used playfield 53 votes
      20%
    • Machine with a hardtop is worth less than a nice used playfield. 58 votes
      22%
    • Machine with a hardtop is worth $200 more than a machine with a nice used playfield (basically just the cost of the hardtop) 37 votes
      14%
    • Machine with a hardtop is worth $500 more than a machine with a nice used playfield (cost + labor to install)) 35 votes
      14%
    • I wouldn't want a machine with a hardtop 51 votes
      20%
    • I love hardtops and wish all my machines had them 12 votes
      5%
    • You ask too many stupid questions 13 votes
      5%

    (259 votes)

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    #23 4 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Not incorrect at all. Lacquer was referred to as topcoat. All pinball machines had some kind of topcoat, until clearcoat of the or close to the automotive variety arrived on the scene. Never was it called clearcoat prior to that that I know of.

    We are observing, but standing clear of the conversation.

    Interjecting here for this comment for historical accuracy. The clear was actually screen printed originally... as were the colors.

    Correct, very soft, and not originally intended/engineered coating for frictional wear.

    Diamond coat was a step in the right direction.

    Modern coats... still softer than the Hardtop product.
    #ATSMtabertests!

    Hardtops Will. Not. Dimple.

    More backspin than a traditional/modern clear coat?? ... We will compare that via real data sometime soon. We rebut that claim.

    Happy debating! Love this thread

    #29 4 years ago
    Quoted from PinMonk:

    You don't have to wait. It already happened. Mafia did this last year. It was not well-received.

    Incorrect... indeed, it was a subsurface printed approach... but not our product. The devil is in the details.

    We even spoke to these folks, and they used our product name to define. I asked them not to. We had no hand in those.

    Actually, a Spanish (I think) Pinball company also experimented years ago with an approach that is similar. I believe Rob told me that he is bringing some to Expo. I have been told that these playfields still look new today. (Hearsay)
    I am guessing these may indeed have had odd ball play though, not sure.

    Remember.. Duesenburg tried front wheel drive cars in the 30s, then many said it didn’t work...That particular approach didn’t work. The theory was sound, as history now shows.

    #58 4 years ago
    Quoted from PinMonk:

    There's lots of talk about plastic playfields with all the clear and ink adhesion problems, but I think that fixing the wood playfield problems and moving forward is much better than trading one set of temporary problems for an unknown set of new problems. Plastic playfields and overlays are not liked by the majority of pinheads I know.

    I appreciate and (as a fellow pinhead) can understand your sentiment. To a degree, I completely get it.

    However, keep in mind that some of these differences are. “Feeling” I suspect.

    I say that because when you are playing on a well clear coated traditional surface.... you are in fact playing on a polymer surface. The problems begin when this .5 to 1 mil thick “barrier” brakes down. Additionally, dimples (dents)... now folks are making comments about a traditionally “screened” playfield, which is actually also... incorrect. These are being produced via digital ink jet today. Traditional screen print process would NEVER produce the near photographic stocastic screening process used. These new fields are digitally ink jetted for all new games. Similar to the old traditionally screen printed playfields, the ink MUST be protected from the sever frictional wear the ball creates.... soooo the fields are then clear coated with a clear coat (careful, not too much harder!! Hint, hint) and cured.

    In the end, the only people playing on “wood” are those playing machines worn down to wood. Not so great.

    A more careful comparison we have used in our development is compare our plastic surface to the .... plastic clear coat used to protect the ink surface. Ours just happens to be 30X thicker and agreed... different in construction.

    As stated in my earlier thread.. we will be conducting more testing over the next year to demonstrate differences.. and as needed dial in to match durometer, COF, pounce... comparing the traditional feel using a real life modern “traditional” playfield.

    We will make public these results to debunk erroneous claims, while possibly confirming others.

    Yea, you found yourselves a nerd.

    Love this discussion!

    #123 4 years ago
    Quoted from wdennie:

    Their self adhesive, I think if they were screwed down, there would be nothing to keep the dirt out,
    and screws would probably make it bow, and never lay totally flat.

    Certainly that issue among several other problems. Reliably providing a true/flat surface, sealing out contaminants and best replicating the traditional clear coat surface in regard to ball play is deceivingly difficult.

    Yes, we are still reading

    #124 4 years ago
    Quoted from Its_me_aj:

    I’m pretty sure that a hardtop would help the value of my EK even if it’s just a little bit. I guarantee I can get more for it if I were to sell it with with a hardtop on it than beat to crap.[quoted image]

    EXACTLY an example of what we hope we will never have to shed a tear over again while someone says they are “parting out” due to playfield being trashed. Awesome example of why we do what we do!

    #147 4 years ago
    Quoted from mrm_4:

    This is the space shuttle that made me believe in hardtops increasing value. This is @fattdirks game at Madcap brew co in Kent. Hardtop was installed almost 3 years ago. Has easily 10,000 games on it. This poor game gets the shit played out of it and still looks brand new.[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    The highest game number we have heard yet on route is for a Space Shuttle... is 20,000+ games and counting. Still looks great according to the owner.

    Perception is playing a large roll with folk's opinions vs hard (no pun intended!) facts. That is ok! I was once told by a smart guy that perception forms 99% of reality. We are the new kids here (well sort of... the post referring to the now quite old Spanish games is spot on).

    Tradition is tradition, and we understand that. Just like they quit mounting seats backwards in station wagons...then they quit making station wagons!... was I mad? Hell yes I was! ... but anyway...

    We will continue to do what we do with many more titles coming. Along with that, for all of you to review... we will disclose actual material testing results sometime down the road as they become available.

    The traditional way of playing on a cured polymer surface is by spraying it onto wood. We are simply choosing a more durable/thicker polymer and bonding it via industrial PS adhesive... and our refinement and development will continue. In the end, if you want the art to hold up.... you are ALL playing on plastic via sprayed on, or an adhered hardened surface).

    Perception.... and we know we wont convince everyone, but we are confident more will understand as we go. We want many many more games to look and play like a million bucks before we are done.

    We will be roaming, hydrating, playing at Expo if anyone wants to chat! We are not exhibiting this year, but will be around. We are delivering more than a few Hardtops to customers who have already purchased also. Just PM me if you want...

    Cheers!

    #151 4 years ago
    Quoted from Skypilot:

    Did you want a station wagon?

    Umm... yea!

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