As long as the original playfield is intact and the hardtop can be easily removed without any signs it was ever there, I don't think it would be worth much less than if it never had one.

Hardtops require sanding down the playfield where any inserts are, which typically means a total sanddown for a lot of pins. So, no real going back

That said, installing a Hardtop on my High Speed transformed it. It played pretty well before, but it plays like a dream now. Sooooo smooth.

Hardtops are a last-ditch choice, IMO. I'd pass on one and wait until a nice or restorable used playfield shows up.

Bought a beautiful hardtopped
BlacknKnight and it looks so
cherry! Easy to clean and ball
rolls great. Big fan here.

I think that since it’s “different” and not original, but saves a lot of games without having to get a new playfield, it’s sorta like a game with all replacement boards. I’d say it’s really only the normal cost of a machine plus part of the cost of the hardtop (or replacement equipment) if someone sells me a game with new boards, I’m not gonna pay straight up the cost of the board extra, but you pay a bit more, kinda pro-rated if you will.

I reckon a majority of the peoples have never tried a machine with a hard-top. If it plays the same as original, I dont see why the value would drop, unless the yellowed chipped plastics were not upgraded as well.

hardtops are great "alternative" to a new repro playfield or nicely retouched/restored one. But please, don't let anyone kid you....A game with the latter should have more value than one with a hardtop.

I have installed hardtops and a great many of reproduction and retouched playfields in the past. Hardtops are nice for games that have no reproductions ones available. Most quality restorers would prefer to have an original restored playfield or a nice reproduction one over a laminate that goes across old playfield. Inserts will always look finer and cleaner with reproduction playfields compared to sanded down/cleared inserts with a laminate over it.

There is room for both products on the market and each one has their advantages over the other and obviously the cost/time factor is better with hardtops but do your research and know what you are getting.

I cant get past the weird sound the ball makes when rolling over a hardtop. That causes me to think the game plays different, even if it doesnt.
But I think it really does.....

Definitely depends on your priorities. If rarity factors in heavily into the price, the order of value is NOS, new repro, and so on.

For me, gameplay is key. I’m flexible so long as it plays well.

I played one title with a hardtop and noted right away the ball did odd spin/backspin at times which I attribute to the playing surface. On one hand nice to save a game when there might be no alternatives, on the other not interested in owning a pin with one.

Hmm... so what if you clearcoated the hardtop? Would it then play the same?

I wonder how a hardtop surface differs from a high-quality buffed and polished clearcoat like HEP does? Both are very smooth.

Just as an FYI: Hardtop guys *highly* recommend not clear coating a Hardtop.

But, I get your point.

Honestly, I don’t perceive any difference in how my Hardtop’d High Speed feels versus my friends multiple NIB games (JP, Wonka, JJPPOTC). I *do* feel a difference over my original playfield, primarily because of the factory Mylar, raised inserts, etc.

Every hard top I’ve played feels smooth as butter. (Space Shuttle, Comet, Fire Power, Mata Hari) For the most part anyone who has played one is sold, anyone that doesn’t like them typically just doesn’t like “the idea of them” and hasn’t played a game with one installed. I honestly can’t see how you could play on one and think they’re a bad product. Then again, there are people that hate the way a clear coated playfield feels, so there’s always something I guess.

I love all the various opinions on the subject. One thing I will say though is that anyone who has not actually played a Hardtop, I would consider your opinions negated. I restore games both professionally for others and for my own personal collection. I route games at several locations. Also as many of you know I work very closely with Outside Edge in development and prototyping of Hardtops.

For those of you with games in the one to two thousand dollar range we’ve noticed a shift, and people are really starting to want this product because it is a wonderful cost-efficient alternative to making your game better. Now if I decide I want to make a restoration piece I’m going to go directly to a playfield but I can tell you that I won’t put that out on a route. I am just finishing up the prototype HighSpeed and I am thrilled to place that out on route knowing my cost was down and the game will continue to play well with no wear. Oh and did I mention look amazing...! Do I feel that a game with the Hardtop has a better value? Absolutely. I know what goes into installing these and I also know that if I purchased a game from someone that installed a Hardtop, the game will look fantastic and play great. As far as what value you put on that installation, its subject to personal opinion. I can tell you that it does merit value. Keep flipping

Oh, BTW, Why do people keep mentioning clearcoat over a Hardtop? Please stop.
1. It will fail.
2. Hardtop is a "tested" harder, more scratch resistant surface.
3. Thats just silly,go buy a playfield.

AF468332-3658-4C35-856B-A4C71F81023D (resized).jpeg

Most games hardtops are for were not clearcoated at the factory, so no.

This is completely incorrect, diamond plate was not the first clear. Games had been cleared for a long time, it just want a very hard clear. There was clear lacquer on EMs.

Not incorrect at all. Lacquer was referred to as topcoat. All pinball machines had some kind of topcoat, until clearcoat of the or close to the automotive variety arrived on the scene. Never was it called clearcoat prior to that that I know of.

They could have called it anything it's still a clear that's protecting the underlaying art. It wasn't thick, it wasn't good, it was a clear coat.

As you wish. But I'm sure most here would agree when you say clearcoat , it refers to a certain variety of topcoat, but not all.

We are observing, but standing clear of the conversation.

Interjecting here for this comment for historical accuracy. The clear was actually screen printed originally... as were the colors.

Correct, very soft, and not originally intended/engineered coating for frictional wear.

Diamond coat was a step in the right direction.

Modern coats... still softer than the Hardtop product.
#ATSMtabertests!

Hardtops Will. Not. Dimple.

More backspin than a traditional/modern clear coat?? ... We will compare that via real data sometime soon. We rebut that claim.

Happy debating! Love this thread

You are more the expert than I am.

Just trying to clarify what I have found on playfields of different games, from new to all the way back to the 40s. If my vocabulary is off or I use the wrong terminology, I don't mind being educated.

Chill bro. My point was clearcoat and a hardtop are both types of plastic, so what’s different that would cause one to add ball spin? I never suggested anyone should clearcoat a hardtop.

And I wonder what the reaction will be when the first pinball manufacturer announces they are producing white wood playfields with hardtops installed on all future titles.

No more clearcoat issues. No more chipping playfields. Durable long lasting surface. Easier to replace & install than a full playfield swap. Easy to maintain. And probably cheaper to produce. IMO it’s the future of playfield production.

Now if only a company would allow customers to design & print their own original hardtop designs for homebrew & rethemed games. That would be a game changer for hobbyists as well.

You don't have to wait. It already happened. Mafia did this last year. It was not well-received.

Incorrect... indeed, it was a subsurface printed approach... but not our product. The devil is in the details.

We even spoke to these folks, and they used our product name to define. I asked them not to. We had no hand in those.

Actually, a Spanish (I think) Pinball company also experimented years ago with an approach that is similar. I believe Rob told me that he is bringing some to Expo. I have been told that these playfields still look new today. (Hearsay)
I am guessing these may indeed have had odd ball play though, not sure.

Remember.. Duesenburg tried front wheel drive cars in the 30s, then many said it didn’t work...That particular approach didn’t work. The theory was sound, as history now shows.

I sort of disagree with your assessment. If there are two games with similar characteristics but one has all of the bullet proofing mods done and or has new boards, I'd pay more for it. I'd pay significantly more obviously for a cleared playfield and slightly maybe $100 or two more for a hard top.

Thunderbirds used it before Mafia.

If I’m being honest, on a new machine I would be furious if they stopped using screened playfields. I have absolutely no rational reason for it though- it just seems like a big break from a long tradition I guess? There’s many things I have the same reaction to... I want a working coin door on my home game, I prefer real plasma displays in my classic Ballys, etc. yet I buy lots of reproduction parts... ramps, aprons, boards, hardtops, etc.

I've only gotten to play 3 games on one (Space Shuttle) and to me it did seem to play faster but, aside from that it played and look fantastic.

If the game play was unchanged I'd agree and have no qualms. Just as I have no qualms replacing new junk incandescent bulbs with LED and doing ground mods and other changes to pins to make them more reliable.

However the example that I played and I played it several times, I noted the ball action was notably different. I play games with automotive clearcoated playfields all the time, I have three in my collection. The only difference I can tell is the clearcoated ones might be a touch faster.

This was different as the ball exhibited odd behavior, most notably off the slingshots. I found it not to my taste, and would pass on a pin with one installed. It is nice that it is available to save a pin with a beat playfield and no other options and the ball behavior I noted might not be objectionable to the casual player. Your mileage may vary.

I've been working on a Slugfest recently and realized it's playfield is a 1/4" piece of acrylic reverse screened and screwed to the wood portion. This thing has held up for 27 years and still looks great, so I'm looking forward to giving a hard top a try if they do a game I own that needs it. Harlem and Bally Star Trek pretty please

dang double post

I kinda feel like this is a great time for this thread because it fees like we are at a splitting point. I voted that the value of a hard top game was a bit less than a nice original- apples to apples, because I value the history and even the slight wear of a nice used game. However, I put my games in a climate controlled space and they are the centerpiece of a room with lighting etc designed around them. If I was putting them on route and had a choice between no maintenance and basicaly bomb proof vs wearing out or possibly wearing through an old crappy top coat I believe I would probably value the hard top and probably pay extra to get it. So as usual, I find that a home collector is not the same as an operator in terms of what they value and this what a game is worth. But the market currently is dominated by home collectors so I suppose thats where we should look for value assessment. Either way- I would play them both!!

Great points man, my first encounter with a Hardtop was before I even knew they existed, played a space shuttle at the brewery that I now run the league for, i was blown away by how good the PF looked and played. Played like 3 weeks in our league before having a discussion with Deez about it. He explained the hardtop to me and my mind was blown. I guess for me, I find pinball to be art however I need to remind myself that they are vending machines too. So if you have a product that is "basically bomb proof"
for the wild but looks AMAZING then hell yeah!

Love my Hardtopped Comet! Price wise, decent Comets don't seem to sell super quick when priced $1000-$1500. This Hardtopped one went in 1 day with an asking price of $2200...

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive/85758

I paid $1000 for mine before putting on the Hardtop. I'd say it looks to be in similar condition other than Freeplay40's corkscrew (which I now also have). If that really sold for $2200 and I could sell mine for a similar amount. That would mean the Hardtop added about $1000 to the value.

Here is another, but even more fixed up, this one was $2500...

https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive/85131

Sounds very much like mine, minus the cab repaint (maybe some day).

Sorry to have implied it was yours. The point I meant to make was it was essentially the same approach - printed plastic sheet over playfield.

I think OP's question is wrong when he asks about comparing a hardtop to a "nice used playfield". If I have a game with a nice playfield, there's no way I'm going to hardtop it. OTOH, I've seen a lot of games on CL that have atrocious playfields that would be great candidates for a hardtop. If the question was hardtop or atrocious but original playfield, how many would prefer the hardtop?

Hardtops seem perfect for those games that are lower priced. While a reproduction or high end restore makes sense on games like TAF or CV, it would be hard to get your money out of a Comet or Space Shuttle.

In that comparison, nice used playfield always wins.

Why does this even matter? Are these even being sold anymore? They stopped selling them in summer.

I would think the hardtop adds the value of the hardtop. If the whole game was restored plus hardtop, you're talking more, of course.

Depends on what “nice” means. Nice, for being 30+ years old? Or *really* like-new nice?

I think a lot of people are willing to overlook the playability aspects for the sake of keeping it original. and I was there. I had real hesitations on installing the Hardtop. My playfield wasn’t horrible, sort of nice even for its age. It wasn’t trashed.

But, I knew it could play better. And, with the Hardtop, it does.

It comes at the expense of not being as-shipped, but I am happy I took the leap. I think it plays smoother than it ever could have brand new. Just one guy’s opinion

IMO....

Mint Unrestored Original PF -> Restored Original PF -> CPR Or Similar Repro PF -> Unrestored But Nice Original PF -> Hardtopped PF -> Trashed Beyond Help Original PF

Hardtops have zero collectability but high playability.

So your saying a hardtop does play noticeably different then a regular playfeild.