After reading some of this thread I knocked out a few games on my Comet with a Hardtop with my son before he went to bed just to enjoy it.

I finished my Comet a few months ago, there are No options on a new playfield that any normal person can find right now. Comets were painted with Crayons and mylar seemed to be the only protection most had. Most have severe planking to the wood anywhere there was no mylar including mine. But it was a game I don't see very often and wanted to restore. I had the cabinet sanded, repaired as the back was falling apart, stenciled. I drove from Georgia to Chicago for a repro backglass because mine had no color. I purchased a overlay before I found out about the Hardtop and quickly sold it on ebay when I received my Hardtop, It was the best option for the restore. It got repro plastics and ramps also. Looks amazing to me and plays just as great.

When I finished my Comet that same day it got packed up and taken to the Atlanta SFGE Southern Fried Gaming Expo. I hung around the game asking people what they thought, I didn't get a single complaint. Everyone thought it played great and looked amazing. I don't know how many times I had to explain it wasn't a New playfield that it was a sheet of plastic basically. I opened it up several times for people to check it out up close also and everyone was positive at least to my face if they thought differently I wouldn't know.

It Won Best Restoration at the Show also.

It's a great option in my opinion. I currently have 10 pins set up at my house, a few with playfield protectors, the Comet Hardtop, several with just orginal PF's and wax, and a freshly restored Totan with a CPR Gold and just wax so all flavors right now at my house and they play almost all the same to me. WAX is the key if you wax your games they will play fast, the weird stuff usually happens from slow bounces when you see the weird spin not from your shots. I don't know how other people play pinball but I usually want to hit my shots by shooting at them not hoping for bounce in's.

I've been on the wait list for a Meteor playfield from CPR for a couple years now and maybe it will be out in the next year, I can wait but who wants to wait years for a playfield to be ready if it's even an option because a lot of titles are not. Not everyone knows who to send a playfield to for restoration and the wait time for that can be a long time also and costly.

I enjoy my Comet with the Hardtop, I think it looks and plays Great.

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Nice looking Comet!

Where did you get that repro backglass? You said Chicago, but who makes it?

BertoDRINK1

Yes where??

it was a old timer that didn't want to ship these repos. i saw him and another guy arguing about it on FB. i sent him a PM and said if that guy doesn't want it i'll drive up and pick it up tomorrow. he responded the next day and said come get it and i did. he had a few others like Sorcerer and some others. you can tell its a repro if you look closely its digitally printed not screened but its way better than what i had and is mirrored. not sure if i even have his name it was way over a year ago.

I would have restored that playfield and cleared it honestly.

Hardtops don’t have adhesive over the inserts, so that is not an issue

Similar experience. I took my hardtop Flash Gordon to Bat City Open 2019, a circuit event. Nothing but praise from the tournament players. Several said it was the best playing FG they’ve ever encountered. Most assumed it was just a restored/CPR playfield. Keep in mind, tournament players are notoriously picky about these things (god help you if you put super bands in a tournament). So yeah, my informal single blind experiment shows that no one notices any negative differences in playability, including some of the best players in the world.

IMG_4915 (resized).JPGThese guys loved it.

"Doing it right" is such a moving target though. You know, not that many years ago, Clay's guide to sloppy hand painted touch ups and rolled-on Varathane that yellowed in a few years was considered "restored."

Unless we rescreen a lacquer topcoat on these games, nothing will truly be factory restored. Even NOS has naturally aged. Check out that Playboy thread floating around here.

I like the thought of a hardtop. But like some, i'm on the fence. I have a very poorly "restored" Taxi that would be an ideal candidate but it's just the unrealistic idea in my head that I'm that much further away from the wood that's got me on the fence.

Fair point. Since I’ve never gone playfield restoration, can’t guarantee it would have ended up better, though (to @slicknick13 ’s point).

My question is about the poll for this thread and what a “nice” playfield looks like. Is that playfield in the realm of “nice”? (Rhetorical question)

That’s pretty typical of all the HS I have seen. Any truly “nice” playfields would be pretty rare, so they *should* be worth more given that rarity.

This. I've played a handful of machines that have been hardtopped, and I own one-- they are IMO better than an original playfield. Plays faster, with no ball marks, and ridiculously easy to clean.

Truthfully, I think most of the hate comes from people who have never tried one. I was at a tournament last year where everyone was raving about how this one particular machine played. The owner mentioned that he had recently installed a hard top. a couple of people immediately changed their tune to "oh, I don't like those". BS... when you didn't know the game had one, you thought it was the best example you had ever played.

It’s made for interesting discussion. Thanks for starting the thread!

Looks like based on the poll, about 60% are not wanting the hardtop, think it decreases value, or is equal to a nice used pf.

Thats just based on 196 people that even participated in the poll, not the entire hobby. I'd be willing to bet more than 196 hardtops are on back order.

Very true but IME polls on here with almost 200 responders tend to give a pretty solid look into the hobbyist market.

Before and after. Gee I dunno guys, did I increase the value?

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Better than beat to hell for sure, but see if you can get $3k for it.

What one I know of just sold for with a slightly worn original playfield

I’m pretty sure that a hardtop would help the value of my EK even if it’s just a little bit. I guarantee I can get more for it if I were to sell it with with a hardtop on it than beat to crap.

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Well that won't require much sanding.

Didn't realize these glued to the pf. I thought they just dropped right over. I imagine if you manufactured pins with hardtops from the start you could screw them down in places to make them easier to remove.

Their self adhesive, I think if they were screwed down, there would be nothing to keep the dirt out,
and screws would probably make it bow, and never lay totally flat.

Certainly that issue among several other problems. Reliably providing a true/flat surface, sealing out contaminants and best replicating the traditional clear coat surface in regard to ball play is deceivingly difficult.

Yes, we are still reading

EXACTLY an example of what we hope we will never have to shed a tear over again while someone says they are “parting out” due to playfield being trashed. Awesome example of why we do what we do!

Yeah. I got f--ked on my Shuttle after I put the CPR playfield in it. I'm not even sure I broke even, and I bought that game as my first pin for all of 500 bucks! If I could go back, I never would've sold it. Still pisses me off that it won a "Best XYZ" award at a show after being repainted and the trim being cleaned up. Just a bit. I completely resoldered every wire on that play field. Every. ONE.

I feel bad ruining an original playfield (gramma margie repainted the pool balls on with oil paints) but I think this sucker is getting a hard top! Will it hurt the value?

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60% don't like hardtops?

What is up with people on both sides of this debate counting “worth about the same” as either for or against hard tops depending on their agenda.

Sounds like a vote for not caring either way.

Umm. That first category is a negative.

That is saying that after all the work of stripping, leveling, sanding, and installing a hardtop, that you wasted your time and money as those people would have just taken it with the nice original pf.

I read it like this: Two games for sale, one with Hardtop, one with decent original playfield. Price is the same.

For the Hardtopped machine, I'll assume that the playfield was blown out and replaced while you can assume that the playfield was already nice and then replaced.

I was going to make the point that you will spin things to your advantage. But it was late and I did not realize I left that on a post. I liked the"60% are not wanting the hardtop"

I am sorry you don’t seem to understand that I get no advantage from this. I am just a customer and collector sharing my opinion. Appears the poll is not clear it people read that first one differently, but your defensiveness and personal attacks are abundantly clear.

Oh well.

Your product is cool for what it is, but the poll shows that installing one does impact the demand of resale down the road as many people have no desire for it.

If anything, I think this thread provides a good example of where those selling a product should probably not constantly interject and defend the product when customers are providing a valid opinion.

I think a hardtop increases the value of a machine it's installed in.

The original manufacturers spent a lot of time and money to make their playfields smooth and shiny with great artwork to provide the player with a visual treat while ensuring fast, and zippy game play.

Unless the original playfield is in perfect as-new condition a new hardtop will make a tired playfield new again. Thus increasing it's value.

Original playfields are awesome... when they're in as-new condition, and 99.9% of what's out there isn't anymore.

-Paul

Whysnow,
You have made it well known that you are a HUGE fanboy of CPR in past threads. You express the pinball world in black and white. So please don't paint yourself as the voice of reason. I am not trying to attack you but I grow tired of the spin.

As far as my defending Outside Edge and their product, well guilty. I will always express my opinion on this product because I use it. I have several Hardtop game in my shop that I'm preparing for route. They are sitting next to a couple of full restoration games that I would never consider putting out. I believe it to be the greatest product to hit the pinball market in years.
Sorry if you feel its personal, its not. We have two very different opinions.

A hardtop placed over a worn playfield will increase the value of a machine for me.
I respect that not everyone will want one, but if you look at the market archives already, the machines with hardtops ( comet/space shuttle for example ) have definitely sold for more than even nice/touched up originals. I take this to mean there is a demand for them by at least some people at this point.
I also think the vote choice of a “nice” playfield is hard bc it will mean different things to different folks. It can be a broad term.

CPR playfields are the gold standard of playfield restoration, period, short of having a NOS playfield that's 100% pristine and having it cleared by a professional. Are we really arguing a plastic sheet is the same? C'mon.

Hardtops are acceptable in MANY situations, but the big three are: Laziness, Cheapskatedness, Unavailability of better option. If there's a choice between CPR or Hardtop for the same game, I really can't fathom picking the Hardtop. Does that mean I wouldn't buy a game with one on it? Hell no, that's stupid. In fact, I plan to put one on a Future Spa playfield because CPR apparently WILL NOT EVER RUN IT even though they're already doing Paragon and Space Invaders!

You also have to consider the CPR playfield is more likely to hold up over time, and be more easily repairable, while a hardtop, if damaged, is simply done and has to be fully replaced. You can't touch up art and reclear a hardtop. In that regard, a hardtop is definitely worth less than a CPR playfield, but I still think it's vastly better than a beat up original playfield with flaking worn art.

Honestly I was going to buy a whirlwind playfield from cpr but after reading about clear chipping off during assembly, the art defect that was never addressed, dimples not present or in the wrong spot. I decided to do touch ups and get a playfield protector and don’t regret it one bit. I have a feeling all my pins will end up with a layer of plastic on them, either hardtop or protectors.

Not so sure about that. Those 30+ year old plastic Spanish playfields all seem to have held up great. I guess if you carve your initials into a plastic playfield it would be much harder to fix up. But metal balls rolling around on them seem to cause minimal damage.

There is another: Return on investment. Paying $800+ for a playfield on a pin that you’d be lucky to get $1900 for would have to be done on a “bolt it to the floor” situation. For those who want to earn a bit of sweat equity by improving it, play the pin, then rotate it out, those numbers just don’t make sense.

I respect that many see a Hardtop as degrading the pin, not improving it. As the poll shows, there’s enough people out there that see it differently to at least break even on the deal.

If you manage to let it wear through the 30mils of PETG before it touches the art, then you’d have a poorly playing pin, anyway Best to just get a new playfield at that point.

I personally would take the time to find any game I'm looking for with a decent original playfield or an OEM NOS.

If that is not your standard, you have the option of a repro, a hardtop, or any of the other ways to make a game presentable enough for whatever your budget or standard is.

Or you can just play a beat to shit worn out playfield if that is your fancy.

All this debating what is worth more or less and who is right and who is wrong, seems kind of silly.

There is an answer.

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Even Vid himself threw in the towel because of the economics for some pins

First: Totally agree

Second: For me it’s about learning everyone’s opinions, the basis for them, etc - not saying one side is “right”

Third: This *is* Pinside. What else do we do here?

This is the space shuttle that made me believe in hardtops increasing value. This is @fattdirks game at Madcap brew co in Kent. Hardtop was installed almost 3 years ago. Has easily 10,000 games on it. This poor game gets the shit played out of it and still looks brand new.

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I know a guy that does restorations and he actually charges extra for CPR playfield swaps. This is just a great honet guy all day long and if he says CPR stuff is a PITA I believe him.

So with that being said, if there's a huge price difference between a hardtop and a CPR I'd definently go hardtop. In a home environment I sincerely doubt you'll ever wear one out anyway.

The highest game number we have heard yet on route is for a Space Shuttle... is 20,000+ games and counting. Still looks great according to the owner.

Perception is playing a large roll with folk's opinions vs hard (no pun intended!) facts. That is ok! I was once told by a smart guy that perception forms 99% of reality. We are the new kids here (well sort of... the post referring to the now quite old Spanish games is spot on).

Tradition is tradition, and we understand that. Just like they quit mounting seats backwards in station wagons...then they quit making station wagons!... was I mad? Hell yes I was! ... but anyway...

We will continue to do what we do with many more titles coming. Along with that, for all of you to review... we will disclose actual material testing results sometime down the road as they become available.

The traditional way of playing on a cured polymer surface is by spraying it onto wood. We are simply choosing a more durable/thicker polymer and bonding it via industrial PS adhesive... and our refinement and development will continue. In the end, if you want the art to hold up.... you are ALL playing on plastic via sprayed on, or an adhered hardened surface).

Perception.... and we know we wont convince everyone, but we are confident more will understand as we go. We want many many more games to look and play like a million bucks before we are done.

We will be roaming, hydrating, playing at Expo if anyone wants to chat! We are not exhibiting this year, but will be around. We are delivering more than a few Hardtops to customers who have already purchased also. Just PM me if you want...

Cheers!

Played a Wizard! at the York pin show that had a hardtop installed. Wouldn’t have known if the guy working on the Space Shuttle next to it didn’t tell me. I assumed it was a reproduction playfield. Thought it played great. Much rather have that than a blown out playfield.

Did you want a station wagon?

I was surprised to find that many SUV's are classified by the state of PA as station wagons.

This makes me happy because the registration fee for trucks is way higher than for passenger cars/station wagons. I assume full size vans count as trucks? I know cargo vans do.

The thinking that a pickup truck requires 4x the registration fee than a passenger car I haven't figured out yet.