Than a “regular” 80’s playfield with Mylar, imperfect inserts, etc affecting ball travel, yes. If the playfield is truly “like new” and smooth (like a HUO, NOS, or repro one), go with that all day long - no question.

But, truth is a lot of these 30+ year old machines were routed at some point in their lives, bear the battle scars, and play differently because of it.

I’m only condoning at Hardtop when the playfield has imperfections that affect gameplay - which is easily possible given the age of these pins.

I was (poorly) trying to make this point earlier: Collectors who prize their pins being original will see it as a net negative.

Those who prioritize playability - and knowing it was essentially shopped as part of the Hardtop process - will see value.

I lean towards the latter, but I totally understand and respect the former. I also recognize I’m in the minority here

Id rather have a pin that I can play the crap out of and not have to worry about inserts popping out and paint flaking off. But my firepower has a great playfield, I’ll leave it alone. My eight ball deluxe on the other hand has no paint left on the PF.

So a game with a trash playfield is worth more after a hard top.. but worth the same to a collector because it still needs a new playfield (that also plays different than an original playfield). I would say to people buying them to play them and casual owners will see the value in it and not care about the originality.

Hardtop seems to be the way to go if a playfield is trashed on a lower dollar machine.

Lord help us if it becomes the new standard on expensive NIB games.

Some how I feel that writing is already on the walls the way the wind's been blowing.

That is 100% not true. I have hard-topped two machines and they play completely different than a restored machine with a clear coated playfield. I have done two titles that I have also swapped with CPR playfields.

I actually played both machines hundreds of times before I decided which one I liked batter.

I would suggest that you possibly meant a playfield protector and a hardtop play the same... those two surfaces are actually very close in how they play.

There's lots of talk about plastic playfields with all the clear and ink adhesion problems, but I think that fixing the wood playfield problems and moving forward is much better than trading one set of temporary problems for an unknown set of new problems. Plastic playfields and overlays are not liked by the majority of pinheads I know.

They are setting us up for the kill.

I appreciate and (as a fellow pinhead) can understand your sentiment. To a degree, I completely get it.

However, keep in mind that some of these differences are. “Feeling” I suspect.

I say that because when you are playing on a well clear coated traditional surface.... you are in fact playing on a polymer surface. The problems begin when this .5 to 1 mil thick “barrier” brakes down. Additionally, dimples (dents)... now folks are making comments about a traditionally “screened” playfield, which is actually also... incorrect. These are being produced via digital ink jet today. Traditional screen print process would NEVER produce the near photographic stocastic screening process used. These new fields are digitally ink jetted for all new games. Similar to the old traditionally screen printed playfields, the ink MUST be protected from the sever frictional wear the ball creates.... soooo the fields are then clear coated with a clear coat (careful, not too much harder!! Hint, hint) and cured.

In the end, the only people playing on “wood” are those playing machines worn down to wood. Not so great.

A more careful comparison we have used in our development is compare our plastic surface to the .... plastic clear coat used to protect the ink surface. Ours just happens to be 30X thicker and agreed... different in construction.

As stated in my earlier thread.. we will be conducting more testing over the next year to demonstrate differences.. and as needed dial in to match durometer, COF, pounce... comparing the traditional feel using a real life modern “traditional” playfield.

We will make public these results to debunk erroneous claims, while possibly confirming others.

Yea, you found yourselves a nerd.

Love this discussion!

They do play different but you'd probably get used to it.

My biggest issue with it is if people start to destroy otherwise decent playfields just to put the hardtop on (which already seems to be happening) that's not great IMO. Truly trashed PF's, sure.... go for it.

Flash Gordon has been at my location for 6 months now with hardtop. I've legitimately had top ranked players not know it was a hardtop until I told them. I don't think it plays much different in general, it looks great, and it is holding up amazingly on location. Anyway if anyone wants to come play on feel free to check it out at North End Pub in Lafayette, IN it isn't going anywhere.

I wish all pins had hardtops. Especially in light of recent clear coat hysteria.

I like the way they play and as far as I can tell they are damn near indestructible.

Perhaps just put a note on it asking for feedback on how it plays - leaving the Hardtop part out. Otherwise, you're likely to influence the feedback you get.

As I've read multiple times in various threads, when people aren't informed it's Hardtopped, they don't typically come away thinking "That pin plays odd." If they know it's Hardtopped, they start scrutinizing it. It's human nature. Hell, I did the same for the first couple dozen plays after installing mine.

I like the Pepsi Challenge aspect of that idea. Still say I'd keep it to just asking for feedback, without calling out that there's something unusual. Once you tell them something is fundamentally different, they will start making all kinds of assumptions, etc.

I've played a few games with hard tops installed. They look amazing and play well as well. The Firepower I recently played looked outstanding and was the best Firepower I've ever played. I'm really impressed with hard tops.

Like most posters, I agree, they should be used to for trashed playfields.

In terms of value, I think they should be priced similar to a game with a nice original playfield. I suspect they will actually command more, though. The ones I have seen were completely restored with new plastics, leds, etc. When this is done, they look so much better than an original and they play fast.

It plays definitely different as the ball roll on plastic and not on wood. Same feel than playing on a playfield protector (or Interflip Dragon).
I have one on my Mata Hari and I love it. The game play super fast compare to an original playfield.

As for the value..a new playfield is around $800 and a hardtop is $300 so I would adjust the value accordingly.

Well for all of you that will be attending expo this year, I have decided to bring the Prototype High Speed pinball machine to the show for everyone to play. I think the more people that have a chance to try this product the more it becomes excepted as we keep seeing.We will also have a Wizard Hardtop there.
20AA7792-E45C-4259-A270-90D0F86F1C07 (resized).jpeg941A0A35-9C98-4C57-B61F-800CB1D9B054 (resized).jpeg

That's sage-like advice on your cabinet, just under Slimer's butt

I think that barring any long-term issues with the hardtops (delamination, etc.) it's only a matter of time that most people will consider them a big plus when purchasing a used game. There will, of course, always be a premium paid for a restored or reproduction PF but for the "mass market" in pinballs hardtops will be the gold standard.

I also wouldn't at all be surprised if you start seeing a substantial number of new games being produced with hardtop-style playfields right from the factory (DeepRoot?). A better product is a better product.

I agree they play very similar to having a PF protector on a game.
Wish they offered more games, keep them coming!

THIS ^^^^^

I don't buy it when some people say that the ball rolls & plays different on a hardtop. I've heard nothing but positive things from the first hand discussions I've had.

I mean the main playfield on Elektra has a plexiglass playfield. Have people been ranting for nearly 40 years that Elektras play poorly because of the plastic playfield? Of course not. Plays like any other pin. In fact it's pretty impressive how they've held up for almost 4 decades.

This happened to me organically, like i explained a few posts back. Played Space Shuttle and kept saying to myself "Damn this thing plays so smooth! I can believe how nice this thing is. " THENNNNN learned about hardtops.

I'm not a fan of playfield protectors, but I think it's inaccurate to suggest that hardtops & protectors are similar. Playfield protectors are a very thin, flexible sheet of plastic with a dull suface. It can dull the colors of the playfield. Gameplay on playfield protectors can be effected by a host of factors, such as cupped inserts, dust & debris that gets under the protector, etc. A hardtop is a hard flat durable surface. It shines like a newly clearcoated playfield. The colors pop. There's nothing on the surface that can effect the ball movement. It's all the things a playfield protector isn't.

IDK you can tell what camp I'm in. I'm looking forward to installing mine on my MH.

This play happens on a nicely new clearcoated and properly waxed pin as well. Many people are used to playing on dingy/not properly waxed games and don't ever experience this.

I didn't say it was similar, I said it plays very similar.
Also a PF protector is not dull.

Can't agree as I have clearcoated two playfields myself and they don't exhibit the behavior I experienced.

And I found out the playfield had a hardtop after the fact when the pin was listed for sale on the forum.

Modern clearcoat is essentially plastic. I've had games cleared by just about everyone and the ball is insane until the surface dulls a bit.

I have played Playfield protectors/hard tops on lots of classic games. Yeah they play fast until they dull up a bit too. I don't really see a lot of difference.

Now if I had 2 games in front of me for the same price, same visual condition, one that had a trashed field replaced with a hard top and one that has a tiny bit of insert wear... All things the same, I'm taking the insert wear.

Questionable clear or clear over bad touch up? I'm going hard top.

I would rate hard top as half the distance between trashed and mint/fully restored. This gap is further apart on some games than others so I don't think it can be looked at as a flat value.

Sorry for adding to this nonsense

I might have to invest in some hardtop stock.

It's going to be forced down our throats whether we like it or not. Hopefully it won't get all scratchy and dull like some of those playfield windows do.

The near 100 year tradition of painted wood is going the way of the dodo bird.

Agreed. Just makes sense especially given all the pf issues lately. Even if the hardtop gets beat up or discolored from age, you just replace it. Any issues with it from the factory and the manufacturer could just send you another hardtop. It would be a pain to replace but not that hard. Hate to say it but manufacturers could even use cheaper wood since it would just serve as a base. Not sure how I feel about all that. If the hardtops hold up great, play well, and look great then I don' see the problem.

In many cases mylar gets dull not because of the surface, but because of the adhesive underneath. No amount of polishing can take that out.

In the case of a painted hardtop that would be noticeable probably only in the insert areas or where there is no artwork.

In playfield windows, they just seem to dull with time. But a replacement can shine it right up again.

I’ll take a hardtoped game any day! As long as the inserts are # properly

For the purposes of determining what a "nice" playfield is, how would you rate mine pre-Hardtop (scale of 1-10)?

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNVnePAk_W7FHlo44TbOGpDCI_wPIfd8x4aRgfONlWm84Le4MFvYyi3kHXT3UTQ?key=YzFNcGtfMHdzcVc3NXc3cHpZdjR0bWk0UVNPTm5R

Ha! I plan on using mine as a sales tool: "High Speed: Special 72,000 Bonus Point Edition™!"

Not really. These things stick to the wood *very* well. You'd pull up the top layer of the wood if you tried to remove the Hardtop. I suppose you could Bondo the playfield, sand, etc. But, at that point you might just wanna find a donor playfield, instead.

I personally will never buy a game with hardtop. They play poorly IMHO ad are not for me. I will take a blown out game over hardtop

Such a conformist.

You enjoy that. IMG_1483 (resized).jpg

I'll play this. IMG_r (resized).jpg
Opinions vary

Honestly, yes. The first one plays better/ real pinball feel and can also eventually be restored.

The second one plays like plastic, has permanently ruined the original, and does not do well around some switches and role overs esp.

I know you sell and rep the product, but It is my honest opinion of it. It is cool that you have made a business out of it and happy for those that enjoy it. I tried genuinely to give it a try and really gave it ample chance to win me over. Sorry, but I don’t like it.

I’ll take a game with a Hardtop/protector on it every time over some old shitter with cupped inserts diverting the ball SDTM every time!

I have a number of protectors that have saved some of my old clangers from oblivion... firepower, nitro ground shaker, Funhouse ... they all play awesome, 10x better than they used to.

I’m looking forward to ordering and installing my SOF and Grand Lizard hardtops that were supposed to be ready last January.

rd

Just quietly, 99% of the other countries of the world are like that too.

Me too. Seems some people just like to change things for the sake of it.

I have a good buddy who will put a new PF in everything - even if his original PF is 99%. I tell him he’s crazy ... down here, by the time you get a CPR/MIRCO shipped down, it’s $1500 NZD or even more. And the original ones are generally better quality than the repros.

The only reason to change anything is if it is completely buggered. Otherwise, leave it be!

rd

“I can’t even play this game, the ball rolls too nicely!!! If you turn the sound down you can’t even hear the ball clicking when it hits the raised inserts!”

You guys crack me up.

I guarantee I can get a hardtop off a playfield without ruining the wood too.. little bit of heat gun action and clean up with some brake cleaner.

I think one thing that people have not mentioned is that some of us have a feeling “if you are going to do it, then do it right”

In other words, if you are going to put in part of the effort to strip a game in order to remove more art and install hardtop, then go the full mile and touch up and clearcoat the game.

I understand the place hardtop has but I think many jump to quickly to its use as a short cut to a full job.

As others have said, your game and do what you want with it.

On the topic of the thread, it seems that if you do a hardtop then you are likely removing some of your possible buyers when you do sell.

It’s simple HARDTOP is the best thing that’s happened to Pinball since Roger!

I played a Space Shuttle at a show with a hardtop and it looked great and played perfectly. I've had games with NOS cleared PF's, CPR PF's and of course OE PF's. A CPR will always be worth more when selling but from a playing standpoint, no difference. With CPR taking years to turn out some titles or having to shake the trees to get some one to sell the PF they been sitting on, buying a hardtop for 1/3 -1/2 the price is a no brainer. Take Flash Gordon, CPR hasn't made one in years and it's not on the radar now. Perhaps digitally in 2020 or beyond. Who knows when. Even then they'll be $800 minimum delivered. I'll take the hardtop for half that.

If you say so.

He did perhaps help bring pinball out into the light for a spell back in the 70s.

Unknown (resized).jpg

Hard tops rule. End.

There is something to be said for hardtops.

hardtop.jpg