(Topic ID: 168102)

Using a System 7 (Jungle Lord) CPU in a System 3 (World Cup) game-long


By cody_chunn

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 38 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by cody_chunn
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 5 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

Sys7 BLANKING Circuit (resized).png
Untitled (resized).png
Sys7 LEON test equipment (resized).JPG
Sys7 LEON Driver J3 Grounded (resized).JPG
Sys7 LEON boardset under test (resized).JPG

#1 2 years ago

Using Sys7 CPU/Driver in Sys3

First, if this has been covered comprehensively somewhere, please let me know. I have been able to find chunks of support documentation in several different places and I am having trouble matching up all the details of what I need to do.

I suppose getting the S7 cpu board to boot would be a good first step. The board has Leon's test ROM in IC-17. I understood this can be done without any jumper changes, just that W-11 is installed, which it is, and W-12 is out, which it is.

I also have a jumper from C23 (+ side) to the bottom of R3 in lieu of connecting +12VDC. This is in some dispute as one resource says to jumper C23 + to R27 which is connected directly to ground. Hopefully R3 is correct.

With the above conditions, I have a clip lead from the +5VDC on the power supply to TP9. Ground is supplied via clip lead from "-" side of C13 on PS to TP10 on CPU.

I have a probe clipped to ground to tap IC1.40 to RESET.

Upon connecting power and RESETing IC 1, I get both LEDs lit solidly and a zero in the diag display. They never change state, although at times the segment display would flicker segments that resembled an "8". I understood this to mean the board was "locked up".

I put the logic probe to work. IC1, 6808 has two DATA lines stuck LO, D5 and D4 at pins 28 & 29 resp. Swapping in a 6802 resulted in same condition. 6808 back in. If I lift those two pins out of the socket and reinsert the chip, those two pins "float" with no connection.

Put those pins back. They are tied directly to IC9, which then outputs the signals to the DATA BUSS. Replaced IC9 with socket, but unfortunately the same result. If I remove IC9 from the socket, all outputs from IC1 going to IC9 go no connection. D5 and D4 still stuck LO.

It is my understanding that D5 and D4 should be pulsing everywhere on the board with that designation. They are all LO. None of them have continuity beeps to the ground plane.

I do not want to replace any more unnecessary components.

glub...glub...help!...glub

#2 2 years ago

I do believe you need some heavier de-conversion done if it's past System 6, not sure though

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6

#3 2 years ago

Honestly, I would try to find a system 3-6 board to use instead. System 7 boards are hard to find, and it seems kind of counterintuitive to convert one to put in a system 3 game.

I'm sure someone would be more than happy to make a trade for a system 3-6 board.

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Honestly, I would try to find a system 3-6 board to use instead. System 7 boards are hard to find, and it seems kind of counterintuitive to convert one to put in a system 3 game.
I'm sure someone would be more than happy to make a trade for a system 3-6 board.

Hmmm...well, it was "free", and that's really important these days. Something to consider...

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Hmmm...well, it was "free", and that's really important these days. Something to consider...

There's also your own time to consider trying to get it to work.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

There's also your own time to consider trying to get it to work.

Meh, it's hobby time and classroom learning time. I haven't had enough time in the WMS Sys3-7 hot box.

My thinking was that the Sys7 board would be that many years younger and maybe more dependable. Little did I know it would take a Master's Degree to decipher online information into a useable knowledge base.

Or I'm just a dummy

#7 2 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

My thinking was that the Sys7 board would be that many years younger and maybe more dependable.

Nope, there's really no difference in reliability. Adding too many modifications or hacks to an otherwise reliable board is what would make it less reliable, regardless of age.

Get a board meant for your game--you'll have fewer headaches.

#8 2 years ago

"Hacks"? Funny.

I thought I was making progress last night. I decided to start removing socketed chips connected to D5 and D4 and found that missing IC9 resulted in all data lines going there went no connection...so no help confirming all DATA lines were pulsing out of CPU. Reinstalled IC9.

Knowing the 5101 is a common failure device in the Bally 6800s, swapped it out with same result. Reinstalled original 5101.

Then I pulled IC16 RAM. This changed which DATA line was held LO. As a test, I swapped IC 16 and IC 13. This recovered pulsing on IC1 pins 28 and 29. So with ICs 16 and 13 swapped, all IC1 DATA lines pulsed but depending on where they were, one or more DATA lines were held LO, preventing the CPU from running completely.

I had some 2114 chips in my parts stock, but they either killed even more DATA lines or resulted in both LEDs and zero on the diag display blinking on-off indefinitely.

I doubt that's a good sign.

So, any suggestions as to getting this board off the ground, that doesn't include swapping it out?

#9 2 years ago

You must burn the test ROM onto a 2532 chip and stick it in IC17. Don't use Leon's either. Use Andre's. You don't have to build the readout board for system 7, andre uses the diag digit in system 7 games. 3-6 use 2716 for test ROM. 7 use 2532 test rom (for most games! i always jumper like BK/jungle lord).

See pinout expamples here. CE is not same pin for 2532/2716. no worky
http://www.unitechelectronics.com/EPROM_data.htm

Also for normal game ROMs you combine the two flipper ROMs onto one 32kbit (2532) for IC17. Then the normal game 16kbit ROM goes into IC14. That is the ROM setup for system 3-6 games on system 7

#10 2 years ago

Sure, NOW you tell me after I already bought Leon's IC17 chip! I think it is supposed to be on a 2532, and the game ROMs are supposed to be the ones that work. I got IC14 (FD97) and IC17 (4F4A), they are labeled "World Cup CPU ROM" and "World Cup Sys7 FLIPPER ROM, respectively. Are these supposed to work, or are they not correct?

Thanks for jumping in with the info. These vintage WMS games are more complicated than they should be.

#11 2 years ago

sounds like your roms are setup correctly. Triple check the jumpers. There are a bunch of them.

is the board actually resetting? You don't have to stimulate a manual reset in these WMS games. At least i never do. The reset day is longer than bally, so they come up on bench supplies OK.

Check CPU p40 for reset high after bootup. Check CPU p37 for external clock pulsing 1MHz. After having a clock and reset known good. You can then pull all the devices off of the address/data bus you can and then scope each line out.

#12 2 years ago

Well, I don't have the new ROMs installed yet. I was trying to get all the DATA and ADDRESS lines pulsing. Am I not correct that any D or A line locked either HI or LO locks the board up?

... ...

OK, I just reinstalled all the 'original' chips that were in JL, and working at the time it was parted out. ALL DATA and ADDRESS lines on IC1 are pulsing properly!

However, when power is applied (and CPU manually reset by tapping pin 40 to ground, just to be sure I get a good reset signal to CPU), I still get a ON solid zero in diag display and top two LEDs ON solid.

Will adding the other two diag LEDs/resistors be of much benefit?

I was reading how to interpret the segment display with 4 LEDs and my skull cracked open a little bit.

#13 2 years ago

Adding the extra LED's doesn't give you any different information than the 7-segment display gives you.

Just to confirm, you're trying to boot it up with the driver board attached, correct? None of the WMS system 3-7 boards will run without a driver board.

#14 2 years ago

No, the CPU by itself. I was under the impression that the CPU could be trouble-shot at least through POST: CPU, ROMs, RAM...

#15 2 years ago

A crashed board could be dumping on the data bus causing those lines to go low.

Pull all the roms, rams, etc you can than check out the address and data lines. They all should cycle when there is no roms installed.

Find the list of system 7 jumpers and make sure it is setup like black knight. Then 2532 goes at ic17.

Also beware wms put wrong ic designations on rom labels in this era too. Go by what the layout drawing says. Jungle lord factory roms probably has ic17/ic20 mislabeled.

#16 2 years ago

It should be possible to run system 3-6 software at system 7 boards.

There are 2 options: rejumpering the boards so the sockets are mapped like the sockets at system 3-6 and IC17 accepts a 2716 Eprom.
Or combining the system 3-6 binaries IC20 and IC17, program it in a 2532 Eprom and install it in socket IC17 at your system 7 board.

Memory mapping system 3-6:

IC14 $6000 ~ $67ff
IC17 $7800 ~ $7fff (the system actually boots from this rom)
IC20 $7000 ~ $77ff

Memory mapping system 7 (as it is usually jumpered):

IC14 $6000 ~ $67ff (same)
IC17 $7000 ~ $7fff (again, system 7 boots from this rom)
IC20 $6800 ~ $6fff
IC26 $5800 ~ $5fff

Combine system 3-6 IC20 and IC17 to a 2532 IC17 binary like this:

IC20 from $000 to $7ff in Eprom and IC17 with an $800 offset at $800 to $fff. You can use DOS commands, an HEX editor or programmer software to do that. If desired I can help you with that.

You can install system 3-6 IC14 software just at IC14 socket at your system 7 board.

Some additional information, hope it is informative. Good luck in solving your problem!

Marco

#17 2 years ago

The history of this board is that when I acquired Jungle Lord years ago, I sent the board(s) off for repair to someone who at the time wrote my name on the board in white ink. This was 1997. The board worked perfectly with the same chipset that is in it now:
IC26 - 2716;
IC20 BLUE FLIP ROM - 2716;
IC17 BLUE FLIP ROM - 2532;
IC14 JUNGLE LORD - 2716

At some point the game became infested with post beetles(?) and had to be discarded. The boardset has been kicking around since then, never used or anything done with it.

IC9 I just replaced, probably wrongly, trying to get the D5 and D4 lines pulsing. It's a SN74LS245N. I thinks it's OK though because yesterday by refitting all the original chips in their original spots I finally got all DATA and all ADDRESS lines pulsing on IC1.

Last night, however, D5 and D4 were back to stuck LO.

So I can pull all the socketed chips, except IC1, and this 6808 will pulse all the D & A lines on it's own...and I can perform these tests with the driver board removed?

I think I will try that today.

To be Pintinued...

1 week later
#18 2 years ago

"Hi! Remember me? I'm the one from the registry office."

So after wasting a lot of time I finally decided to follow advice and de-populate the socket chips and start from "bare bones". Only the test ROM and IC1 CPU were the only socketed chips remaining. Even a couple of chips that had been replaced over the years with sockets were removed. It failed boot with locked on diags.

I probed all the lines on the CPU and the ones going to IC9 were floating, no connection. U9 had a socket and was pulled, so I reinstalled it and cycled power. I then had blinking diags! The test ROM was finally running.

I then proceeded to probe the PIA lines PA0-PA7 and PB0-PB7 on the PIAs IC18 and IC36. All lines were pulsing as expected except IC36 pin 9, which is PA7. It has no continuity to other PA7 destinations like IC2.11 and IC33.12 (IC 18 does have continuity from pin 9 to other PA7 designations except IC36.9).

Looking at IC36.9, it goes through the board VIA topside to the top of R35 and through W25 to ground. I am assuming this line is supposed to be LO and is correct. Can someone confirm? I don't have another Sys7 board to compare to.

Second question: During the test routine IC1.23 is stuck HI, and .25 is stuck LO. Since I have proven these lines pulse with the board fully populated with the JL ROMs, etc, and since the PA and PB lines are all pulsing with the above one exception, I am assuming these two CPU lines are being held by the TEST ROM. Can anyone confirm that as well?

Much gratitude for advice and comments.

#19 2 years ago

IC36 pin 9 doesn't move with Leon's test ROM.

From the PinWiki Archive for Leon's Sys7 test ROM

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Leon_Borre_WMS_System_7_Repair

"The output PA7 of IC36 will not move, as it's connected by W25 to ground..."

Leon vs Andre is really a matter of personal preference. I've played with Andre's test ROM a bit, and still use Leon's because that's what I've been using for years.

I can check a Sys7 board later and advise on IC1-23 and 25.

#20 2 years ago

Dang, sorry for the dumb question (dumb because the answer was readily available). I'm literally using 5-6 different resources trying to wade through this. One is the ink above Thank you for taking the time to respond.

To be pintinued....

#21 2 years ago

Well, after learning to read, I made quick progress. Knowing that the measurements I read are expected I tested all the PIA lines listed on the CPU and driver board. All were pulsing properly. This is with the test ROM only, no other ROMs installed.

Sys7 LEON boardset under test (resized).JPG

I had to ground all pins for J3 to complete testing of the driver board PIAs:

Sys7 LEON Driver J3 Grounded (resized).JPG

The logic probe was really all I needed:

Sys7 LEON test equipment (resized).JPG

I did discover a bad 2114 RAM that was locking the test routine. Replaced and continued.

So now I guess it's time to install the new game ROMs...I hope they are the right type and aren't the "official" PPS ones with "problems" I've read about. We'll see in the next couple of days...

#22 2 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

So now I guess it's time to install the new game ROMs...I hope they are the right type and aren't the "official" PPS ones with "problems" I've read about. We'll see in the next couple of days...

I can tell you I tested them in my test fixture on a Sys7 board before I sent them out, and they seemed to function as expected.

If you have problems, you have nothing to worry about, I'll take care of it.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

If you have problems, you have nothing to worry about, I'll take care of it.

That is a stand up guy!!! Wish there were more like you in this world.
Mike

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

I can tell you I tested them in my test fixture on a Sys7 board before I sent them out, and they seemed to function as expected.
If you have problems, you have nothing to worry about, I'll take care of it.

AH! I just put the pieces together! Thanks for keeping an eye on me!

#25 2 years ago

This game uses a special white flipper ROM at IC17. It is unique to all other games using the white flipper ROMs. If you use the wrong one, the game I believe boots to audit mode at least, but will not play correctly.

#26 2 years ago

Well, I'm making "progress", anyway...

#27 2 years ago

Geeze I wish my memory was better, but i think that is what happens with the wrong white flipper ROM. When you try a certain game play feature that does not exist in the special ROM, the game crashes. What checksum of IC17 did you use?

Untitled (resized).png

#28 2 years ago

So, I dug out my notes...

The checksum of the IC17 I sent you is 4F4A, which matches the archive of the Sys7 combo flipper ROM for World Cup.
I then checked the checksum of the regular Sys7 Combo White flipper ROM, and it's the same checksum.

So, the archive I have appears to be wrong.

I manually combined the Sys3 white flipper ROMs for World Cup, and get a different checksum.

Guessing there is an error in the archive. Your order was the first (and only) time anyone has wanted a combo world cup flipper rom for a sys7 CPU.

I'll send you another IC17 with the combined world cup flipper roms.

#29 2 years ago

Interesting read about the World Cup flipper rom's. I never dealt with a World Cup and I am learning also something here... At IPDB.ORG there is a Williams Service Bulletin listed:

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2810/Williams_1978_World_Cup_Service_Bulletin_dated_28_March_1978_Prototype_versus_Production_ROMS.pdf

Do I understand correctly?

-Prototype World Cup games had a 3rd add-on flipper rom, used in conjuction with the 2 earlier White ROM's used at Hot Tip and Lucky 7. Boards needed to be modified in order to use this add-on flipper ROM.
-Production World Cup games had an updated IC17 flipper ROM which is also compatible with the earlier Hot Tip and Lucky 7 games.

Or ????

#30 2 years ago

They ran out of space in IC14 for the world cup game ROM so they snuck extra world cup game code into IC17 is the way I understand it. Proto games must of had an extra ROM chip instead of the special IC17.

Since the white ROM required for World Cup also works in the other White ROM games, it should be the only one used for maximum compatibility. I think the factory masked ROM label for the world cup special ROM said "WHITE 2-A"

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2810/Williams_1978_World_Cup_White_Flipper_ROM_U17.u17.zip

#31 2 years ago

Now I'm even more glad I undertook this unique endeavor.

But Force Flow was right...shoulda just swapped the board for an earlier one. But I'm in neck deep now I'm gonna see it to the finish line (if I can)!

#32 2 years ago

this may help or maybe you're past this point....
http://www.pinrepair.com/sys37/roms/s3-6to7.zip

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Now I'm even more glad I undertook this unique endeavor.
But Force Flow was right...shoulda just swapped the board for an earlier one. But I'm in neck deep now I'm gonna see it to the finish line (if I can)!

Hope you're successful with it. It may help the next person who decides they want to tackle something similar.

I've had my fair share of challenge projects. They're fun to dive into occasionally, but they're called challenges for a reason.

#34 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

this may help or maybe you're past this point....
http://www.pinrepair.com/sys37/roms/s3-6to7.zip

All I got was an ad for WinZip? Thanks, though.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Hope you're successful with it. It may help the next person who decides they want to tackle something similar.
I've had my fair share of challenge projects. They're fun to dive into occasionally, but they're called challenges for a reason.

Yeah, I don't think I'll be trying this particular type of project again...

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

All I got was an ad for WinZip? Thanks, though.

Sounds like you have the trial version of winzip installed on your computer. Uninstall it. Windows can open zip files without needing 3rd-party software.

#36 2 years ago

Sys7 BLANKING Circuit (resized).png

Allrighty then, let's move on to /BLANKING:

Symptom: All solenoids fire and release upon power up. Fuse does not blow. Fuse was removed for testing.

History: See above. Fitting a System 7 CPU/Driver set (Jungle Lord) into a System 3 game (World Cup). Don't ask, it just turned out that way. Remote battery pack has been fitted to eliminate booting into audits. At this point I am only concerned with getting the /BLNK signal working.

Holding a logic probe on TP4 shows an immediate and solid HI upon power up.

Continuity tests: all good between TP4, pin 37 of interconnect, and pins 3 and 7 (/BLNK out) of IC23. All beepy-beepy.

Logic probe tests on IC23:
Pin 1 = LO
Pin 2 = PULSE
Pin 3 = 1 PULSE @ power up, then No Connection
Pin 4 = Split-second LO, then HI
Pin 5 = Floating, no connection
Pin 6 = LO/PULSE, then LO
Pin 7 = 1 PULSE then no connection

Q1 base = PULSE
Q1 Collector = LO
Q1 Emitter = LO/PULSE then LO (connected to pin 6 above)

I'm trying to identify without question a component is bad before heating up the iron, and I'm looking at IC23, a 555.

What say ye?

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Allrighty then, let's move on to /BLANKING:
Symptom: All solenoids fire and release upon power up. Fuse does not blow. Fuse was removed for testing.
History: See above. Fitting a System 7 CPU/Driver set (Jungle Lord) into a System 3 game (World Cup). Don't ask, it just turned out that way. Remote battery pack has been fitted to eliminate booting into audits. At this point I am only concerned with getting the /BLNK signal working.
Holding a logic probe on TP4 shows an immediate and solid HI upon power up.
Continuity tests: all good between TP4, pin 37 of interconnect, and pins 3 and 7 (/BLNK out) of IC23. All beepy-beepy.
Logic probe tests on IC23:
Pin 1 = LO
Pin 2 = PULSE
Pin 3 = 1 PULSE @ power up, then No Connection
Pin 4 = Split-second LO, then HI
Pin 5 = Floating, no connection
Pin 6 = LO/PULSE, then LO
Pin 7 = 1 PULSE then no connection
Q1 base = PULSE
Q1 Collector = LO
Q1 Emitter = LO/PULSE then LO (connected to pin 6 above)
I'm trying to identify without question a component is bad before heating up the iron, and I'm looking at IC23, a 555.
What say ye?

Replace IC23. There's nothing between the 555 and the blanking pin where it leaves the CPU board. Pretty common failure, sound diagnosis IMO

#38 2 years ago

SUCCESS! A 555 + socket later and I'm getting "clean boots". Well, I'm still getting a single solenoid kicking at power up, but I don't think that's /BLANKING related. I will do more investigating this weekend.

However, if you want to know what a logic probe displays on IC23's legs; 1 @ power applied, and 2 after the game is up and running:

[pinwiki editors feel free to copy this over]

IC23.1 @ power = LO
IC23.1 running = LO

IC23.2 @ power = PULSE
IC23.2 running = PULSE

IC23.3 @ power = LO/PULSE, then no connection/no indication, the probe has no lights
IC23.3 running = no connection

IC23.4 @ power = LO/PULSE, then HI
IC23.4 running = HI

IC23.5 @ power = PULSE, then no connection
IC23.5 running = 1 PULSE when the probe touches the leg, then no connection

IC23.6 @ power = LO/PULSE
IC23.6 running = LO

IC23.7 @ power = LO/PULSE
IC23.7 running = no connection

IC23.8 @ power = HI
IC23.8 running = HI

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 17.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
From: $ 9.00
$ 399.95
$ 22.00
$ 84.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 14.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
$ 20.00
Electronics
Yorktown Parts and Equip
$ 15.00
Cabinet - Other
Siegecraft Electronics
$ 14.99
Electronics
PinballElectronics.com

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside