(Topic ID: 310192)

Upgrading flipper coil in Williams system 11

By Null_Ptr

2 years ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Null_Ptr
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#1 2 years ago

Is there any issues replacing a flipper coil for one of lower resistance (such as a FL1-15411) in a system 11, besides possibly breaking plastics? Just a little backstory this is on a Black Knight 2000 and I am finding the upper playfield skyway loop very difficult to make. The ball tends to want to come down before going all the way around. Flippers have been completely rebuilt, the voltage at the coils was a little low and recently replaced the power aux board which did help. Not sure if I am missing anything else, or if just wear on the playfield has made it harder for the ball to get around as well when it was new.

#2 2 years ago

Playfield angle?

#3 2 years ago

Did you gap your EOS switches properly? If they aren't making good contact or open too early, you will get weak/sloppy flips

#4 2 years ago

Play better

But seriously, nothing prevents you to install stronger coils but beware of breaking plastics. Since you have already rebuilt mechanisms, the normal coils should be powerful enough. Try to find out why the voltage is low (how low exactly?) Regap/file EOS and flipper switches, clean connectors etc.

#5 2 years ago

Playfield is set pretty low currently just under 6 degrees much higher it basically will never go through the loop fully. In fact even with some of the bumpers removed at the end of the loop it still has trouble making it through at this angle.

EOS is gapped pretty close. I don't think I could safely gap it any closer than it currently is.

Hahaha yeah that's probably true!
Yeah okay so that's what I thought, but when I tried using a stronger coil on a Rottendog MPU board it actually blew a cap and killed a diode along with some other issue I'm still tracking down as it currently gets no power to the flippers now. I currently have the original MPU back in now after doing a separate repair to it but I just didn't want to fry something else.

So before changing the aux board the bottom right flipper was around 60v and the top right just under at ~59v. After changing it it's around 64 lower and upper is 63.5 or so. The EOS switches are new I actually replaced the he entire flipper mechanisms with the switches just to rule anything out.

#6 2 years ago
Quoted from Null_Ptr:

In fact even with some of the bumpers removed at the end of the loop it still has trouble making it through at this angle.

By bumpers do you mean rubber? If they are newer type rubbers, they may be fatter than intended. Also check whatever metal is up there to make sure it hasn't shifted, a very small difference here changes angles significantly.

#7 2 years ago

Ah that's good to know and yes the rubber, but also even with the metal post by the loop switch removed it's a problem. I did find an old service bulletin a while back about bending some metal pieces in. I did this and it actually did help a lot with the ball lining up with the flipper but still feels a bit under powered. Besides that I checked the metal lining around the loop it seems pretty flat with just some expected wear.

#8 2 years ago
Quoted from Null_Ptr:

The ball tends to want to come down before going all the way around. Flippers have been completely rebuilt, the voltage at the coils was a little low and recently replaced the power aux board which did help.

The way the two right side flipper coils are wired, is that the lower right flipper has an EOS switch and another switch, this other switch acts like a flipper button but for the upper flipper. So it's important to make sure this switch is clean and gapped properly to get optimal strength. What I did on my BK2K was, I rewired this "other switch" to be activated by the flipper button directly. I did it this way because it gave me better control of the sensitivity.

Before I did this to my game, I was also struggling with a weak upper flipper and I switched to a more powerful coil. After I rewired the switch, I went back to the proper, factory coil. But really, moving the switch was less important than making sure it was clean and properly gapped.

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Null_Ptr:

Yeah okay so that's what I thought, but when I tried using a stronger coil on a Rottendog MPU board it actually blew a cap and killed a diode along with some other issue I'm still tracking down as it currently gets no power to the flippers now. I currently have the original MPU back in now after doing a separate repair to it but I just didn't want to fry something else.
So before changing the aux board the bottom right flipper was around 60v and the top right just under at ~59v. After changing it it's around 64 lower and upper is 63.5 or so. The EOS switches are new I actually replaced the he entire flipper mechanisms with the switches just to rule anything out.

Very strange that changing a flipper coil could blew anything from MPU board, since the coil is only controlled by the flipper buttons - not by the MPU. Only thing that comes to my mind is a short between flipper EOS switch and lane change switch or miswiring of those.

Of course the coil itself must be connected correctly, else the diodes will short out coil voltage possibly blowing a fuse or damaging flipper enable relay.

Your voltages sound normal, as long as it is about 50V with coil operating. Idle voltage at 60-70 is OK.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Null_Ptr:

EOS is gapped pretty close. I don't think I could safely gap it any closer than it currently is.

I don't get this statement.

Should be tight with good contact at rest and 1/8" gap at full stroke, right?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers#post-284674

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from shaub:

What I did on my BK2K was, I rewired this "other switch" to be activated by the flipper button directly. I did it this way because it gave me better control of the sensitivity.

That's a really good idea, I think I will change my setup that way as well. I have done some cleaning on the switch but I probably should go over it a little more just to be sure it's as clean as it can be.

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

Very strange that changing a flipper coil could blew anything from MPU board, since the coil is only controlled by the flipper buttons - not by the MPU.

That's good to know that isn't a normal thing to have happen at least. The only thing I can recall that maybe could have caused an issue is I discovered after the fact that one of the wires on the EOS switch was not making great continuity and needed to be reflowed as I wasn't getting high voltage, just the hold voltage.

Does anyone have any schematics to the Rottendog board by the way? I have been trying to track it when down and haven't turned up anything online and would really like to get it fixed.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Barr993:

I don't get this statement.
Should be tight with good contact at rest and 1/8" gap at full stroke, right?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers#post-284674

Well it is doing that, but I mean if I were to push it in closer it would have trouble fully opening potentially. I'll admit I probably didn't do it the best way I still need to get something to properly check the gap as I'm just eyeballing it.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from Null_Ptr:

Well it is doing that, but I mean if I were to push it in closer it would have trouble fully opening potentially. I'll admit I probably didn't do it the best way I still need to get something to properly check the gap as I'm just eyeballing it.

Can you post of a picture of the eos switch both with the flipper at rest and the flipper at full stroke?

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from Jmckune:

Can you post of a picture of the eos switch both with the flipper at rest and the flipper at full stroke?

Sure thing.

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#16 2 years ago

That is not enough of a gap to prevent arcing and possible EOS switch damage. Hard to say for sure of course, but that could be an issue.

#17 2 years ago
Quoted from dozer1:

That is not enough of a gap to prevent arcing and possible EOS switch damage. Hard to say for sure of course, but that could be an issue.

Yeah I'm sure you are right that it should be gapped more. Kinda going back to why I'm trying to figure this out, if I gap it more it starts to really feel underpowered.
I may swap the coil out knowing it shouldn't be a problem now and I'll re-gap it and see how it feels afterwards.

#18 2 years ago

Seeing the pics, I now have something else for you to look at. You used conical return springs. If you do not happen to have the right plunger link in there for conical springs, you will bottom out on the spring and not the coil stop. I have seen this many times. Best way to eliminate the problem is to shit can the conical springs and convert to extension springs. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers#post-284661
The pic I attached is of my Mousin' Around. This shows extension springs being used, and the plunger link are the style you would need if you used conical springs. (you can use either spring with these links) The other style has the rounded base to the link and will squash the conical spring.

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#19 2 years ago
Quoted from dozer1:

Seeing the pics, I now have something else for you to look at. You used conical return springs. If you do not happen to have the right plunger link in there for conical springs, you will bottom out on the spring and not the coil stop. I have seen this many times. Best way to eliminate the problem is to shit can the conical springs and convert to extension springs. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers#post-284661
The pic I attached is of my Mousin' Around. This shows extension springs being used, and the plunger link are the style you would need if you used conical springs. (you can use either spring with these links) The other style has the rounded base to the link and will squash the conical spring.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

I'll add that to the list. That's a great point, I had read that those conical springs can cause issues before but I thought it was more of a premature wear issue. Hopefully all these changes should drastically improve the gameplay. Really appreciate all the advice!

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from Null_Ptr:

Flippers have been completely rebuilt...

Check the resistance across both right EOS switches while closed. New high power EOS switches often have oxidation that you can't see. If over 1 ohm resistance, sand contacts with 400 grit sandpaper until under 1 ohm. Lower outer EOS switch also needs to be under 1 ohm. Both of those switches supply power to the upper flipper, so any resistance will result in a weak flipper.

1 week later
#21 2 years ago

Just a little update, I tried basically everything including upgrading coils, changing the return spring to the more modern style. Nothing fixed it.
I did some more testing shooting it and I finally discovered what was causing my issue. It's the wire gate at the top of the skyway loop that prevents the ball from coming back down the ramp. It seems to move easily but I did clean it up, for whatever reason it tends to direct the ball downwards so it doesn't complete the loop. With it removed the ball easily completes the loop now. Anyone else ever experience this, any solutions besides completely removing it?

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