(Topic ID: 213089)

Up the Irons - Stern Iron Maiden Owners and True Fans Club!

By AlexSMendes

5 years ago


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#12751 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

I have the backboard on the way (for a premium) but I do have a LED strip ordered just in case the back of the game looks a bit dark. However, I'm also curious as to where the best place would be to mount the LED strip. Along the backboard, or at the top of the cabinet above it (which would be a bit of a problem with cabling attached to any GI lighting when you want to take the playfield out)? Has anyone added an led strip and can suggest a good mount spot?

Attach it to the black glass channel or the wood just behind it.

Quoted from Anony:

This thing was a bit of a pain to install on the pro but boy does it look cool. It's a little dark on the pro though since you lose all of the backboard GI. I need to figure out where I can mount an LED strip to light up that back area of the playfield.
Can anyone tell me if the polarity matters for the GI sockets for these games, or can I solder in another socket in any orientation?
[quoted image]

Polarity does matter.

#12752 1 year ago

Did make a dedicated thread where I'll make more detailed updates. I'm not a wordsmith anyway, but a place I can get more detailed in some of the processes without adding too much noise here.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/cheko-s-iron-maiden-mods

#12753 1 year ago

Suddenly my prem started ejecting the ball from underneath the ramp straight into the right sling, rather than onto my right flipper. Not sure that I bumped anything, everything looks tight, but occurred after putting in gel inserts into the mode lights. Weird. What can I touch to tweak ball trajectory out of the ramp scoop?

#12754 1 year ago
Quoted from chickenscratch:

Suddenly my prem started ejecting the ball from underneath the ramp straight into the right sling, rather than onto my right flipper. Not sure that I bumped anything, everything looks tight, but occurred after putting in gel inserts into the mode lights. Weird. What can I touch to tweak ball trajectory out of the ramp scoop?

check level side to side

#12755 1 year ago
Quoted from Jamesays:

check level side to side

Ah, stupidly simple and likely the issue now that I look at the feet on the office carpet; not in it's "carpet hole" - thanks!

#12756 1 year ago

installed precision flippers, just got new hi score by far. Got 3 rounds of 2mins to midnight in. Only didnt do Run to the Hills:

20230310_004252268_iOS (resized).jpg20230310_004252268_iOS (resized).jpg
#12757 1 year ago

Thinking I’m going to go the mirror blade route for my upcoming Premium. I see for newer Stern games they offer both screw-in or 3m style. Anyone with preferences? Looking for the best deal out there…

-2
#12758 1 year ago
Quoted from John-Floyd:

Thinking I’m going to go the mirror blade route for my upcoming Premium. I see for newer Stern games they offer both screw-in or 3m style. Anyone with preferences? Looking for the best deal out there…

None, none is the preference. Super easy to install

#12759 1 year ago

Does anyone have pinwoofer on their Maiden is the juice worth the squeeze. I put Kenwood speakers and a Polk 10 sub on my pro sounds good. Picked up a premium and considering going Pinwoofer HELP!!

#12760 1 year ago
Quoted from Sluggo39:

Does anyone have pinwoofer on their Maiden is the juice worth the squeeze. I put Kenwood speakers and a Polk 10 sub on my pro sounds good. Picked up a premium and considering going Pinwoofer HELP!!

Hell Yes

#12761 1 year ago
Quoted from Sluggo39:

Does anyone have pinwoofer on their Maiden is the juice worth the squeeze. I put Kenwood speakers and a Polk 10 sub on my pro sounds good. Picked up a premium and considering going Pinwoofer HELP!!

I went kicker speakers in the head, JBL sub in the cab with the Polk 10 external sub and it sounds just as good as the pinwoofer setup at about 1/4th the cost.

#12762 1 year ago
Quoted from tomdotcom:

None, none is the preference. Super easy to install

Agree, just got a Prem and think NO blades and Black nothingness is the answer. I like how the beacon stands out.

#12763 1 year ago
Quoted from sleepygtr:

Agree, just got a Prem and think NO blades and Black nothingness is the answer. I like how the beacon stands out.

I have been debating the art blades for a bit. I am leaning toward leaving the black so the playfield color pops a bit more.

#12764 1 year ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

that's the same issue i'm having. not a fan of how the light kind of reflects off of it with a satin shimmer. Would be better with a full flat. but does need more lighting. I'm sampling with some items and techniques to hopefully make it nicer.

While the kit is amazingly pretty, the engineering, especially for an instal on a pro, is not. Blocking out the gi lights is enough to say that it is not a great design and really affects general look and appearance of the game. I dislike how in general the holes lined up with the individual components of the mod and install for a pro was fairly difficult. The material itself does not well tolerate any sort of torsion. I’m now debating removing the kit pending light options but find it insanely odd this and other aspects of the design were more considered. At the price, I’m not sure I’d recommend the kit for these reasons and may be pulling mine out if I can’t get the lighting issue it caused addressed. Lior was extremely helpful but I feel these challenges should have been better detailed for pro owners.

Edit: would also add that some of the hardware ( specifically the screws that attach the light board to the torch magnets) were too small and didn’t work. Lots of little things like that as well.

#12765 1 year ago
Quoted from Alaskanzen:

While the kit is amazingly pretty, the engineering, especially for an instal on a pro, is not. Blocking out the gi lights is enough to say that it is not a great design and really affects general look and appearance of the game. I dislike how in general the holes lined up with the individual components of the mod and install for a pro was fairly difficult. The material itself does not well tolerate any sort of torsion. I’m now debating removing the kit pending light options but find it insanely odd this and other aspects of the design were more considered. At the price, I’m not sure I’d recommend the kit for these reasons and may be pulling mine out if I can’t get the lighting issue it caused addressed. Lior was extremely helpful but I feel these challenges should have been better detailed for pro owners.
Edit: would also add that some of the hardware ( specifically the screws that attach the light board to the torch magnets) were too small and didn’t work. Lots of little things like that as well.

I didn't have the issues you had with the hadware but I do agree it seems like saying this kit supports the pro is a bit of an oversight. Lior was helpful but when I heard the words double sided tape my expectations dropped a lot. I think for such a beautiful, well designed piece they should have either said it doesn't really support the pro or done more to make it fit better. On my pro the two sides didn't line up at all, so when installed the pharoah was just kind of floating there with none of the screw holes lining up. This means it's being supported entirely by double sided tape. I think it will hold up over time but there's a chance it will fall and if I ever have to remove it to do work it's going to be a big pain in the butt.

Still looks great though. This is the kind of thing new LEs/Premiums should have, that would really make them stand out and seem worth the extra cost. It just looks so good.
The lighting isn't enough of an issue to stop me from using it but I'm still going to figure out where I can mount some LEDs to help reduce glare, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

EDIT: It looks like there has been some misunderstanding around this as I thought the adjustments to make it fit the pro were already done, but it sounds like the final design for the one that fits the pro is being worked on. So if anyone with a pro is interested in this mod it sounds like there will be a chance to buy one that fits the pro just right which should be awesome.

#12766 1 year ago

Gotta say Lior's backboard complements the apron beautifully. I'm almost done with my Maiden now all that's left is to powdercoat it when I get my new side rails. Such an awesome game.

20230315_211702 (resized).jpg20230315_211702 (resized).jpg20230315_211722 (resized).jpg20230315_211722 (resized).jpg
#12767 1 year ago

Haha the apron is just too much, looks tacky.

#12768 1 year ago

Looks like a hot mess to me, but to each their own.

#12769 1 year ago

Thanks fellas - we all have different tastes obviously ha ha...

However I will say the picture angle probably makes it look like the apron is huge/dominant, it's actually not.

I did add a strip of warm white LED from comet above the backboard - it does improve the lighting at the back from losing the GI, and you can also get an inline dimmer so the effect isn't so in-your-face.

#12770 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

Gotta say Lior's backboard complements the apron beautifully.

50/50 on the apron. Personally, the machine already is 90 percent Powerslave... so I see your point of going for broke. But this is going to seem lame to most, but the Killers illustration (one of Maiden's finest illustrations IMO) in the lower left corner is cool and that is now covered.

#12771 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

Gotta say Lior's backboard complements the apron beautifully. I'm almost done with my Maiden now all that's left is to powdercoat it when I get my new side rails. Such an awesome game.
[quoted image][quoted image]

damn... looks like hell! but not a good one! My eyes are bleeding with that monkfish pharaoh and the apron is also too much.
But if you like, it's the most important, .

#12772 1 year ago

Yeah what can I say I really dig the Egyptian theme, so it's great from my perspective. Also the reason I prefer the premium cabinet over the LE.

#12773 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

Thanks fellas - we all have different tastes obviously ha ha...
However I will say the picture angle probably makes it look like the apron is huge/dominant, it's actually not.
I did add a strip of warm white LED from comet above the backboard - it does improve the lighting at the back from losing the GI, and you can also get an inline dimmer so the effect isn't so in-your-face.

Can you please post a picture that shows how you mounted the LED strip? I still haven't figured out exactly where it can go so it lights things up, doesn't blast the player in the eye and doesn't get snagged on anything when moving the playfield for service.

#12774 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

Gotta say Lior's backboard complements the apron beautifully. I'm almost done with my Maiden now all that's left is to powdercoat it when I get my new side rails. Such an awesome game.

Matching art blades are needed here in my opinion.

https://www.retrorefurbs.com/shop/iron-maiden-pinball-sideblades/

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#12775 1 year ago

Ooooh thanks - they would definitely gel a lot better I might give those a try.

#12776 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

Ooooh thanks - they would definitely gel a lot better I might give those a try.

I have the stern art blades on my premium as well.
These are cool as well. But look darker in color.

https://www.tiltgraphicsinc.com/product-page/iron-maiden-heiroglypics-gameblades
8F7C398B-A3B3-4C88-8DFE-81CC04CAF58E (resized).png8F7C398B-A3B3-4C88-8DFE-81CC04CAF58E (resized).png

#12777 1 year ago
Quoted from RVH:

I have the stern art blades on my premium as well.
These are cool as well. But look darker in color.

Oh ya! I'll have to get those. The dark color gives a "tomb" feel that is completely badass.

#12778 1 year ago
Quoted from Anony:

Can you please post a picture that shows how you mounted the LED strip? I still haven't figured out exactly where it can go so it lights things up, doesn't blast the player in the eye and doesn't get snagged on anything when moving the playfield for service.

I don't have a pic, but I mounted it underneath the plastic glass channel at the back. That does mean the wire is attached to the cabinet from the playfield - however, it isn't really a problem, and I can attest to that because I'm currently fixing an issue with Maiden (right flipper is completely out) and I've had the playfield in/out multiple times and the wire isn't getting snagged or caught and has plenty of slack.

One extra thing - the glass channel is slightly concave underneath, so it hides the strip quite nicely from view if you attach it in the middle of the channel (ie, inside the curve).

#12779 1 year ago
Quoted from Anony:

I didn't have the issues you had with the hadware but I do agree it seems like saying this kit supports the pro is a bit of an oversight. Lior was helpful but when I heard the words double sided tape my expectations dropped a lot. I think for such a beautiful, well designed piece they should have either said it doesn't really support the pro or done more to make it fit better. On my pro the two sides didn't line up at all, so when installed the pharoah was just kind of floating there with none of the screw holes lining up. This means it's being supported entirely by double sided tape. I think it will hold up over time but there's a chance it will fall and if I ever have to remove it to do work it's going to be a big pain in the butt.
Still looks great though. This is the kind of thing new LEs/Premiums should have, that would really make them stand out and seem worth the extra cost. It just looks so good.
The lighting isn't enough of an issue to stop me from using it but I'm still going to figure out where I can mount some LEDs to help reduce glare, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
EDIT: It looks like there has been some misunderstanding around this as I thought the adjustments to make it fit the pro were already done, but it sounds like the final design for the one that fits the pro is being worked on. So if anyone with a pro is interested in this mod it sounds like there will be a chance to buy one that fits the pro just right which should be awesome.

I'd add to this that Lior was an is an absolute gem to deal with. I have zero issues with him and would buy his products again. I would not recommend the kit for a pro, at present, but Lior mentioned they were working on a design for a pro. It is a very pretty kit and I hope this materializes.

#12780 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

Gotta say Lior's backboard complements the apron beautifully. I'm almost done with my Maiden now all that's left is to powdercoat it when I get my new side rails. Such an awesome game.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Where’s Gus?!

#12781 1 year ago
Quoted from Alaskanzen:

I'd add to this that Lior was an is an absolute gem to deal with. I have zero issues with him and would buy his products again. I would not recommend the kit for a pro, at present, but Lior mentioned they were working on a design for a pro. It is a very pretty kit and I hope this materializes.

Yes I hope I did not come off as negative about Lior, I was just trying to give my honest feedback about the kit.

Believe it or not Lior gave me the backboard for free as a bit of a dry run for fitting them to a pro. I misunderstood and thought he had already made the changes to make it fit the pro which is why I was surprised when I had trouble making it all come together. So if any pro owners are interested I would not hesitate to get it once the adjustments have been made. Lior is a super nice guy who will take time out of his day to help any of his customers. I've had issues with a few mods I bought and it was like pulling teeth trying to get answers but Lior was super responsive and even got on a video call with me to help. Top notch service.

#12782 1 year ago
Quoted from gumnut01:

Where’s Gus?!

Ha ha I know right??? I missed out on the first run...

Won't miss it again.

#12783 1 year ago

Now that I finally got a block of time to myself and installed/adjusted the new tomb lock switches ,I’m down to my last issue and am looking for some help please .Prior to today (just reseated all connectors related ) in switch test I would get the upper flippers firing but the bottoms would not .Now ,none of the 4 flippers are firing .All 4 are firing in coil test but the auto plunge is not . These share a common ground .The switch in the shooting lane is f registering .That’s where I’m at .I’m reading through the manual now .A guy told me to pull everything off node 8 and node 9 .Change dip switch settings and hook up node 9 to node 8’s spot and see what happens .I’m trying to avoid that for now but will if needed .I just thought if everything else on CN8 node 8 was working then the board wouldn’t be the problem .I’m thinking I should be looking for a ground short . Please ,if anyone has some insight into this please let me know .By the looks of the best nest around node 9 I’d rather order a node 8 so I don’t pull anything ekse loose causing more problems .

#12784 1 year ago

Edit .I had forgot to plug in CN 9 so upper flippers work in switch test , bottoms do not .

#12785 1 year ago

Im currently having a problem with my lower right flipper not firing too - the coil itself fires in coil test, and its the cabinet switch that's not being activated. Have checked all the continuity from switch to node board, have checked the switch itself is closing, and all the pins on CN9 on the node board are good. The flippers EOS switch activates if i manually move the flipper, and I have also swapped node board 8 & 9 which didn't do anything - bit of a loss as to what this could be now. I'll have a tech here on Thursday but wonder if anyone had any other ideas on what to check?

#12786 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

Im currently having a problem with my lower right flipper not firing too - the coil itself fires in coil test, and its the cabinet switch that's not being activated. Have checked all the continuity from switch to node board, have checked the switch itself is closing, and all the pins on CN9 on the node board are good. The flippers EOS switch activates if i manually move the flipper, and I have also swapped node board 8 & 9 which didn't do anything - bit of a loss as to what this could be now. I'll have a tech here on Thursday but wonder if anyone had any other ideas on what to check?

This is the only issue that has caused me this much stress haha .I feel it’s something simple .Stern seemed to think the board was fine after going through some questions .How long did the board switch take you ? I might just to check a box as after today I’m looking at a couple weeks until back with some real time open .

#12787 1 year ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

This is the only issue that has caused me this much stress haha .I feel it’s something simple .Stern seemed to think the board was fine after going through some questions .How long did the board switch take you ? I might just to check a box as after today I’m looking at a couple weeks until back with some real time open .

Board switch takes 5-10 mins its very simple - just remember where each cable plugs in (its pretty obvious), and change the dip switches when you swap them over.

#12788 1 year ago

I have a flickering GI lamp on my left lane assembly that has has been doing this ever since I bought the game NIB. I have tried oblonging the socket to make better contact with the 44 lamp. I have stretched the spring in the socket to make better contact with the lamp, I have even replaced the lamp thinking it was faulty. Nope. Still flickers when in game and especially when the ball goes back and fourth between the slings. Can’t access the socket unless you remove the left flipper assembly, which I have not done, and wondering if that is the next step I should do to check for a loose wire or something. I think someone mentioned adding some solder to the bottom of the lamp too which I will try this evening. Anybody else had this problem and what did you do to fix it.

#12789 1 year ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

Board switch takes 5-10 mins its very simple - just remember where each cable plugs in (its pretty obvious), and change the dip switches when you swap them over.

Ok , may as well .The more info I gather the better off I’ll be when getting on a call again .Thank you.

#12790 1 year ago
Quoted from Lethal_Inc:

I have a flickering GI lamp on my left lane assembly that has has been doing this ever since I bought the game NIB. I have tried oblonging the socket to make better contact with the 44 lamp. I have stretched the spring in the socket to make better contact with the lamp, I have even replaced the lamp thinking it was faulty. Nope. Still flickers when in game and especially when the ball goes back and fourth between the slings. Can’t access the socket unless you remove the left flipper assembly, which I have not done, and wondering if that is the next step I should do to check for a loose wire or something. I think someone mentioned adding some solder to the bottom of the lamp too which I will try this evening. Anybody else had this problem and what did you do to fix it.

Had that problem on my AiQ, NIB as well. Was faulty sockets. Ended up changing all sockets and never had a problem again. It's really a pain to repair because the sockets are just hammered in the wood from downside and the insulate paper over that as well, all under the flipper ground plate, which you have to remove first. Hard to repair design on that part. Decided to solder in new sockets and changed to the flat screw-in ones, so I can change them easier if they don't work again. If you have long time success with some solder from the top, it's definitely the easier way... But anyway: parts are cheap, so could be worse

#12791 1 year ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

Now that I finally got a block of time to myself and installed/adjusted the new tomb lock switches ,I’m down to my last issue and am looking for some help please .Prior to today (just reseated all connectors related ) in switch test I would get the upper flippers firing but the bottoms would not .Now ,none of the 4 flippers are firing .All 4 are firing in coil test but the auto plunge is not . These share a common ground .The switch in the shooting lane is f registering .That’s where I’m at .I’m reading through the manual now .A guy told me to pull everything off node 8 and node 9 .Change dip switch settings and hook up node 9 to node 8’s spot and see what happens .I’m trying to avoid that for now but will if needed .I just thought if everything else on CN8 node 8 was working then the board wouldn’t be the problem .I’m thinking I should be looking for a ground short . Please ,if anyone has some insight into this please let me know .By the looks of the best nest around node 9 I’d rather order a node 8 so I don’t pull anything ekse loose causing more problems .

If the board is good, I see 2 points of failure. were the molex connectors thats joining both sides of the flipper switches left untouched (on the cabinet floor)? And does the black connector look like this in alignment? Because I would make sure that the header contacts did not get pushed out from the plastic housing in any manner if it was a little loose when reconnecting them.

2023-03-19 19.03.33 (resized).jpg2023-03-19 19.03.33 (resized).jpg
#12792 1 year ago
Quoted from Sleal16:

If the board is good, I see 2 points of failure. were the molex connectors thats joining both sides of the flipper switches left untouched (on the cabinet floor)? And does the black connector look like this in alignment? Because I would make sure that the header contacts did not get pushed out from the plastic housing in any manner if it was a little loose when reconnecting them.
[quoted image]

Thank you for responding .I spent some face time with a friend and after some testing found we have ground .He is leaning toward where Eddie (Stern) was leaning and that switching Nodes 8/9 .I literally have gorilla hands from decades of carpenter work .Rather than risk myself working something loose with my unintentional Kung Fu grip ,I’ve decided to order a new Node and pick it up from Pinball Life tomorrow .If there’s a board to have an extra laying around it’s this one .Plus it’s always best if connections are left alone .Each time you dis/reconnect you’re loosening the hold a little each time .Fingers crossed for tomorrow .I really miss playing this

#12793 1 year ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

Thank you for responding .I spent some face time with a friend and after some testing found we have ground .He is leaning toward where Eddie (Stern) was leaning and that switching Nodes 8/9 .I literally have gorilla hands from decades of carpenter work .Rather than risk myself working something loose with my unintentional Kung Fu grip ,I’ve decided to order a new Node and pick it up from Pinball Life tomorrow .If there’s a board to have an extra laying around it’s this one .Plus it’s always best if connections are left alone .Each time you dis/reconnect you’re loosening the hold a little each time .Fingers crossed for tomorrow .I really miss playing this

Awesome. Good luck! I'm guessing it's the grey wires on the left in the photo that you found to be ground?

#12794 12 months ago
Quoted from Lethal_Inc:

I have a flickering GI lamp on my left lane assembly that has has been doing this ever since I bought the game NIB. I have tried oblonging the socket to make better contact with the 44 lamp. I have stretched the spring in the socket to make better contact with the lamp, I have even replaced the lamp thinking it was faulty. Nope. Still flickers when in game and especially when the ball goes back and fourth between the slings. Can’t access the socket unless you remove the left flipper assembly, which I have not done, and wondering if that is the next step I should do to check for a loose wire or something. I think someone mentioned adding some solder to the bottom of the lamp too which I will try this evening. Anybody else had this problem and what did you do to fix it.

I added some solder to the bottom of my bulbs so the connection point is larger and making a better connection and that seemed to help quite a bit.

#12795 12 months ago
Quoted from Sleal16:

Awesome. Good luck! I'm guessing it's the grey wires on the left in the photo that you found to be ground?

We ran ground through the flipper hot/neutral wires on the leaf and the ground braid .I know when I pulled that black connector off pictured ,the upper flippers wouldn’t fire but I don’t think we tested there .I’ve read a lot this weekend in the manual and I believe most driver grounds were either black or grey .I didn’t bring the manual with me today to work .With remodeling work dying off ,and just working my main job (and very happy to have 4 pinballs ) Im looking forward to diving into learning more in electronics .Id like to take some classes but only after I have the basics down .It’s just when your wrapped up in labor work (job and home / family homes projects ) there’s little free time but I’m going to make the time going forward as I’m very interested in this now that I’m a pinhead

#12796 12 months ago

I'm thinking about picking up a Maiden in the coming run, and I can't make up my mind as to whether to get a Pro or a Premium. I have a Godzilla Premium that I love, but IM Premium seem to have as much going for it for the price difference. Do the mechanical upgrades on IM Pre change the gameplay much?

#12797 12 months ago
Quoted from bloodonthepins:

I'm thinking about picking up a Maiden in the coming run, and I can't make up my mind as to whether to get a Pro or a Premium. I have a Godzilla Premium that I love, but IM Premium seem to have as much going for it for the price difference. Do the mechanical upgrades on IM Pre change the gameplay much?

They do, and the lighting is significantly different.

For my money, I like the flow of the pro. Others prefer the mechs in the premium. I think ultimately you should ask yourself if you prefer more frantic play vs. a little more stop and go. Neither option is a bad one.

#12798 12 months ago
Quoted from bloodonthepins:

I'm thinking about picking up a Maiden in the coming run, and I can't make up my mind as to whether to get a Pro or a Premium. I have a Godzilla Premium that I love, but IM Premium seem to have as much going for it for the price difference. Do the mechanical upgrades on IM Pre change the gameplay much?

Read back the last few pages, this discussion just happened twice lol

Tl:dr anyone with the premium thinks it was worth it but out of all the machines this is one of the better pros since it plays fast with very few breaks in play

#12799 12 months ago
Quoted from bloodonthepins:

I'm thinking about picking up a Maiden in the coming run, and I can't make up my mind as to whether to get a Pro or a Premium. I have a Godzilla Premium that I love, but IM Premium seem to have as much going for it for the price difference. Do the mechanical upgrades on IM Pre change the gameplay much?

As others said, it's been discussed a few times recently - but if you lean heavily into the whole egyptian theme like I do (love it), definitely go for the premium. Not only for the amazing cab/translite art, but the extra mechs are very "tomb-y".

#12800 12 months ago
Quoted from Ceemunkey:

As others said, it's been discussed a few times recently - but if you lean heavily into the whole egyptian theme like I do (love it), definitely go for the premium. Not only for the amazing cab/translite art, but the extra mechs are very "tomb-y".

Also, for me, the mechs provide some welcome deep breath moments, to gather yourself from the frenetic pace of the game itself - I have played and love them both

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