(Topic ID: 171462)

Unreleased Python Game and P-Roc/FAST?

By BeaglePuss

7 years ago


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  • 43 posts
  • 19 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by MarkInc
  • Topic is favorited by 12 Pinsiders

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    #1 7 years ago

    Good morning gang,

    I posted pics of my unreleased Python game in the prototype thread, but figured it was worthy of it's own thread.

    Earlier this year I purchased an unreleased/undocumented Python title called "Formula 1." The game was designed by Python and pitched to Williams at the tail-end of their pinball production. The game was later pitched to JJP, but Jack wanted to retheme the game into a card playing/poker title.

    One of the more unique features seen in the prototype whitewood is the center ramp DMD. This DMD would play race animations beneath a piece of clear plastic. Pretty wild.

    In addition to the playfield itself, I also managed to acquire original Python artwork for the backglass and storyboard.

    The game is currently resting (poorly) in an empty Fire cab, and there is absolutely no electronics or code present at this time. I've been reading over the recent expo threads regarding all the amazing P-Roc and FAST Pinball projects, and that's what ultimately lead me to the creation of this thread.

    The game is (obviously) 100% unplayable in it's current state, and I think that's a sin given all the talent and software available today. My question to the community is: What do I do next? Programming a pin is WELL beyond my skill set, so I'm going to need more than a little help. I'm willing to loan the playfield to anyone capable of getting this game to potentially shoot again (and potentially pay a commission to get it shooting). I suppose I could sell the game is push came to shove, but I'd much rather keep in my collection. With that said, it's just a discussion piece that's collecting dust at the moment. It'd be better off in the hands of a more capable collector.

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    F1 backglass (resized).jpgF1 backglass (resized).jpg

    F1 Storyboard (resized).jpgF1 Storyboard (resized).jpg

    F2 (1) (resized).jpgF2 (1) (resized).jpg

    #2 7 years ago

    Oh My this looks like it'll be totally cool and fun if completed!

    #3 7 years ago

    Following this thread.

    With the DMD ramp. Are there optos or anything to detect ball position? I wonder if there is supposed to be ball interaction with the image on the DMD of if its just running cars up randomly.

    The right ramp with the wheel on it. What does it do? What are the choices on the wheel?

    #4 7 years ago
    Quoted from HighProtein:

    Oh My this looks like it'll be totally cool and fun if completed!

    Absolutely! The in and outlanes look like they'd be wildly fast.

    It's hard to see in the pic, but there's also a drop target bank that blocks the left ramp. Another neat feature.

    #5 7 years ago
    Quoted from Taxman:

    Following this thread.
    With the DMD ramp. Are there optos or anything to detect ball position? I wonder if there is supposed to be ball interaction with the image on the DMD of if its just running cars up randomly.
    The right ramp with the wheel on it. What does it do? What are the choices on the wheel?

    There are no optos on the ramp currently, but I would imagine that was the intention if the game were to go into production.

    The wheel has numerous scenarios based on an F1 race. It reads almost like a board game of sorts. Like "Pass one car" and things of that nature. I'm at work now, but I can write up the entirety of the wheel when I get home.

    #6 7 years ago
    Quoted from BeaglePuss:

    pitched to Williams at the tail-end of their pinball production

    The design of the game looks older than that..

    Anyway, to put this game working would be as a nightmare as making a game from scratch. To do so you would have a one and only game, but only after 2 or 3 years of various people's hard work.
    Or you can leave it as it is. You have a failed pitch game and it's an important part of history as all the games that never got produced.
    I would leave it as is: a collector's piece at your collection.

    #7 7 years ago
    Quoted from hassanchop:

    The design of the game looks older than that..
    Anyway, to put this game working would be as a nightmare as making a game from scratch. To do so you would have a one and only game, but only after 2 or 3 years of various people's hard work.
    Or you can leave it as it is. You have a failed pitch game and it's an important part of history as all the games that never got produced.
    I would leave it as is as a collecting piece at your collection.

    The prototype playfield was originally housed in an NBAF cabinet, so it was created after that title at the very least.

    As for coding and such, I think your overestimating my expectations. I'm just hoping that this table can shoot again at the absolute most. While it would certainly take plenty of work, but I don't think it's in the realm in which your expecting.

    #8 7 years ago

    Neat but I do not see anyone doing all the work for you.

    Right now you need someone to wire it up, put a system in it, program it, create sound, and create the dmd animations. You are not going to pay them anything approaching minimum wage to do it either.

    Keep at is it is, a neat piece of pinball history or sell it to someone who has the skills and time to do it.

    My advice, leave it as is, there isn't enough there to justify it. You have no playfield inserts, no rules, a rudimentary idea of how the dmd was supposed to work, and end of the day its a failed prototype twice over. If this were further along like say the brooks and dunn that was being worked on during expo there would be a lot more incentive to get it running.

    #9 7 years ago

    Is there any wiring at all? Is there any mechanism attached to the wheel?

    What is that upper flipper for?

    It's easy enough to get the flippers flipping, etc, but it'd definitely be a weird game since there's no inserts. You'd have to put all the info on the DMD

    If I owned that I'd totally be hacking some code together...

    #10 7 years ago
    Quoted from dung:

    Neat but I do not see anyone doing all the work for you.
    Right now you need someone to wire it up, put a system in it, program it, create sound, and create the dmd animations. You are not going to pay them anything approaching minimum wage to do it either.
    Keep at is it is, a neat piece of pinball history or sell it to someone who has the skills and time to do it.
    My advice, leave it as is, there isn't enough there to justify it. You have no playfield inserts, no rules, a rudimentary idea of how the dmd was supposed to work, and end of the day its a failed prototype twice over. If this were further along like say the brooks and dunn that was being worked on during expo there would be a lot more incentive to get it running.

    There's certainly a lot of truth in what you're saying, which is one of the reasons I'm open to selling/trading the game to a more capable owner. I wouldn't expect inserts to be added, much or any sound, etc. I do see your point though. It's a LOT of work for little return.

    I think it would be great to have someone take it on as a project and bring it to shows, but it might be in pipe-dream territory at this point. It just seems a shame to have a Python game remain unreleased for good, in any state.

    I do know that the game was playing/shooting when presented to both BW and JJP, but nothing beyond that.

    #11 7 years ago
    Quoted from zacaj:

    Is there any wiring at all? Is there any mechanism attached to the wheel?
    What is that upper flipper for?
    It's easy enough to get the flippers flipping, etc, but it'd definitely be a weird game since there's no inserts. You'd have to put all the info on the DMD
    If I owned that I'd totally be hacking some code together...

    There is no wiring included at all, and I'd have to check the wheel when I get home. I believe there is a mech there, though I may be mistaken.

    The upper flipper shoot at some static targets on the right side of the playfield. They're a bit tough to see in the picture, but they're there (red targets).

    As for owning it and hacking code together, that sounds like a good idea to me. You'd be the exact type of canidate I'd want as a potential buyer given your experience in programming and such

    #12 7 years ago

    If you truly only want it to flip, it's actually pretty trivial to do that. I'm brand new to electronics, soldering etc, and I accomplished the same amount of work with FAST hardware pretty quickly. If you have any skills at all, you can get it flipping in about 2 hours. If you have zero skills, it could take you 20. Most of that 20 hours is getting comfortable soldering stuff together and understanding how to connect the items properly.

    Add in some animations on the DMD unrelated to gameplay and flashing lights (like an attract mode that flips) - add in another 40 hours depending on complexity.

    If you want a very basic working and scoring game, if you have switches installed already, it's MORE work, but not crazy work. You could certainly have this done in time for Expo.

    It looks like there are slots for inlane & outlane rollovers, but not switches. Those aren't terribly difficult to install. Maybe another 6 hours if you're new. The main challenge would be adding switches where they do not yet exist.

    Depending on your expectations, this doesn't have to be a major project. Even getting a backglass and cab art done from your existing drawings would be pretty trivial if you use someone like these folks: http://www.gameongrafix.com/customer-designed/pinball-translite

    It simply depends on how badly you want it up and running, and to what extent. Simple game = not much time. Time increases significantly with every modification you wish to make.

    My chief concern would be any areas designed to hold a ball (like a scoop) that doesn't yet have the hardware.

    #13 7 years ago

    Reading between the lines, it sounds like your preference is to sell it. If that's the case, put up a FS/FT in the marketplace.

    #14 7 years ago

    Looks like if the ball were traveling fast enough down the outlane, it could come back into play via the other side. pretty cool.

    #15 7 years ago

    I would suggest P-ROC for sure. Not only is it a superior system (IMO of course), but their community and the help you would get along the way via the P-ROC forums is completely unmatched.

    #16 7 years ago
    Quoted from BrewinBombers:

    Reading between the lines, it sounds like your preference is to sell it. If that's the case, put up a FS/FT in the marketplace.

    No, not necessarily.

    I'm 100% capable of all the soldering involved for sure. Installing switches and stuff would be a breeze for me. It's the coding that I have absolutely zero experience. The thread was meant to find out how practical it would be for me to take on the task myself, whether or not it would make sense to commission the work, or if I should just sell/trade the game all together. If I were to go with a sale/trade, I would absolutely make an appropriate marketplace ad for sure.

    #17 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinlink:

    Looks like if the ball were traveling fast enough down the outlane, it could come back into play via the other side. pretty cool.

    I was told that was the intention for sure.

    #18 7 years ago

    Looks like it wld be one fast game...very cool thanks for sharing

    #19 7 years ago

    Looks like similar to Nascar that when plunging the ball it goes around like a track and enters via right outlane?

    #20 7 years ago
    Quoted from BeaglePuss:

    No, not necessarily.
    I'm 100% capable of all the soldering involved for sure. Installing switches and stuff would be a breeze for me. It's the coding that I have absolutely zero experience. The thread was meant to find out how practical it would be for me to take on the task myself, whether or not it would make sense to commission the work, or if I should just sell/trade the game all together. If I were to go with a sale/trade, I would absolutely make an appropriate marketplace ad for sure.

    Do you have any coding experience? If not, you can still do this yourself but I would suggest looking into the Mission Pinball Framework and P-ROC working in conjunction. With MPF you really don't need to have experience with coding and the docs are easy to follow. To just get it flipping would be pretty easy.

    #21 7 years ago
    Quoted from pinlink:

    Do you have any coding experience? If not, you can still do this yourself but I would suggest looking into the Mission Pinball Framework and P-ROC working in conjunction. With MPF you really don't need to have experience with coding and the docs are easy to follow. To just get it flipping would be pretty easy.

    Ah, good to know! That seems totally doable to me.

    Is there a particular thread/resource you could suggest for someone in my situation? I don't even know what materials to purchase or software to download at this point. Outside of the playfield and the mechs attached, I have absolutely nothing else currently. My soldering skills are stong though, so I should be able to handle any assembly associated with the game.

    #22 7 years ago

    Interesting design. FAST + MPF and our new FAST RGB DMD would be pretty sweet in this game.

    Take some pics under the playfield and I could help you map out what it would take to bring it to life. Then you will know what it would cost for switches, coils, RGB leds, power, etc.

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #23 7 years ago

    P-ROC forum: http://www.pinballcontrollers.com/forum/

    Like I said, you will not find a better/more supportive/helpful community than with the P-ROC guys. I would suggest posting there.

    MPF website: http://missionpinball.org/

    #24 7 years ago

    The FAST Community is pretty great. This isn't a FAST vs PROC thing, because I've seen the PROC forums and they're pretty great. I just know that if I can get as far as I have with FAST, then there is nothing lacking in the FAST community support area. I don't think you'll go wrong either way.

    MPF is awesome too, and the basis for most of my answer about scoring. It's not tough to get a simple game up and running and their tutorials basically walk you through it step by step.

    Overall, becoming a part of the homebrew pinball community is fun. Take the plunge!

    #25 7 years ago

    A dmd ramp is pretty clever for its day. No one else tried anything like it. I can just imagine cars running up the ramp.

    #26 7 years ago
    Quoted from BrewinBombers:

    The FAST Community is pretty great. This isn't a FAST vs PROC thing, because I've seen the PROC forums and they're pretty great. I just know that if I can get as far as I have with FAST, then there is nothing lacking in the FAST community support area. I don't think you'll go wrong either way.
    MPF is awesome too, and the basis for most of my answer about scoring. It's not tough to get a simple game up and running and their tutorials basically walk you through it step by step.
    Overall, becoming a part of the homebrew pinball community is fun. Take the plunge!

    Agreed. Don't want to make this a FAST vs P-ROC thread. I am sure that both will work fine. Just in my experience I much prefer P-ROC for several reasons.

    Just do your research and decide which will work best for you. As Brewin said, I don't think you'll go wrong either way.

    #27 7 years ago

    Ohhh, this is a trifecta for me... fan of pinball, Python, and F1. Would love to see this get completed!

    I'm a buyer if you want to move it... will go well with my Grand Prix...

    #28 7 years ago

    How can you make a game without inserts? I would think this is a showstopper.

    #29 7 years ago

    What was your original intention in buying this? Believe me, if I saw it, I'd do the same... but did you have a plan?

    #30 7 years ago

    OPP might be a less expensive approach, and it still uses the MPF:

    http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/OPP

    In any case, that DMD on the playfield is going to be tricky to implement.

    #31 7 years ago

    Too bad you didn't have more info on how the game was supposed to work/rules. Looks like a cool game, hope you get somewhere with this project.

    #32 7 years ago

    You live down the road from me. I used to live in Watertown. Let's tak via PM. You can come over and play Buffy.

    #33 7 years ago
    Quoted from luvthatapex2:

    How can you make a game without inserts? I would think this is a showstopper.

    I have to imagine that inserts were planned for the game, but it just wasn't implemented at the current state of production. I can ask the original seller.

    Quoted from HighVoltage:

    What was your original intention in buying this? Believe me, if I saw it, I'd do the same... but did you have a plan?

    That's a great question. I had absolutely no intention of buying a prototype game to be honest. I've been buying tons of Python artwork from a seller that worked with him on various projects. When scanning through various pieces of art, the seller mentioned that he had a playfield to go with the Formula 1 backglass and storyboard. I wouldn't feel right buying the artwork without buying the playfield as well, so we worked out a bulk deal. I've spent many, many thousands of dollars with the seller knowing full and well that I wouldn't recoup that money. As someone that's collected console prototypes for years and years, I've always had a soft-spot for one of a kind items with poor returns lol. I didn't think out the scope of the work involved before purchasing the game, and that leaves us here today.

    Quoted from crlush:

    Too bad you didn't have more info on how the game was supposed to work/rules. Looks like a cool game, hope you get somewhere with this project.

    The original seller worked on the game with Python and pitched it with him to both JJP and BW. He has a pretty good understanding of the original rules from what I gather, so I may be able to glean more information from him in the future.

    #34 7 years ago
    Quoted from Mocean:

    You live down the road from me. I used to live in Watertown. Let's tak via PM. You can come over and play Buffy.

    giphy (resized).pnggiphy (resized).png

    #35 7 years ago

    What does the underside look like? Is there a trough?

    #36 7 years ago
    Quoted from fastpinball:

    Interesting design. FAST + MPF and our new FAST RGB DMD would be pretty sweet in this game.
    Take some pics under the playfield and I could help you map out what it would take to bring it to life. Then you will know what it would cost for switches, coils, RGB leds, power, etc.
    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    I will definitely be taking some pictures of the underside of the playfield as early as tonight.

    #37 7 years ago
    Quoted from BeaglePuss:

    I will definitely be taking some pictures of the underside of the playfield as early as tonight.

    Cool. I love finding projects like this. When we started FAST I always thought it would be cool to find the projects from our favorite Pinball designers that never saw the light of day. Whether they be in white wood form or just sketches, even just ideas in the head, I love seeing this kind of stuff come to life. I would have loved to have the opportunity to work on Pinball Circus, but that project was already well underway when we came around.

    I mean, who thought the Brooks and Dunn pin would ever come to life? Lol...

    Aaron
    FAST Pinball

    #38 7 years ago
    Quoted from BeaglePuss:

    When scanning through various pieces of art, the seller mentioned that he had a playfield to go with the Formula 1 backglass and storyboard. I wouldn't feel right buying the artwork without buying the playfield as well, so we worked out a bulk deal.

    Good work keeping the stuff together!

    #39 7 years ago
    Quoted from Mocean:

    You live down the road from me. I used to live in Watertown. Let's tak via PM. You can come over and play Buffy.

    I live down the road from you also. I know the road crosses state lines but, but, but, you know. Buffy!

    #40 7 years ago

    If any custom mechs need to be completed I would be happy to help

    #41 7 years ago
    Quoted from Taxman:

    I live down the road from you also. I know the road crosses state lines but, but, but, you know. Buffy!

    Not to hijack this thread, but yeah... I'm working on trying to be more sociable.

    Maybe we can find a way for me to have Buffy on location for a little while before Pintastic. Not unlike Lin did with Haunted Cruise at Lanes and Games

    #42 7 years ago

    Am I the only one twisted enough to think the game should be written in Python?

    #43 7 years ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    Am I the only one twisted enough to think the game should be written in Python?

    And it most likely will be! Both mpf and skeletongame are python.

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