They said it's already in early production stages on NPR.
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=256328172&m=256361358
Does anyone have any more info on this?
(Topic ID: 74653)
Chattanooga, TN
It's gonna be Junkyard Cats to debut JJP's line of "throwback titles" 
Quoted from harbngr:would be ice to see the price drop down as well, since if it is an unlicensed or original theme then they shouldn't have to fork over any extra cash for it for every pin sold.
Man, people sure think that licenses are expensive, hey?
Quoted from goatdan:Man, people sure think that licenses are expensive, hey?
Yeah, I dunno where this idea comes from. I think it's because we're geared to think of pinball machines as something special, so licensing something for them must be a really big deal.
Licensing is how companies make money, they don't price it such that people won't want to buy them. As Vid is fond of pointing out, he has a box of Universal Monsters Kleenex. That $2.50 pack of fruit snacks your kid wants with Spongebob on it? They aren't paying $2.49 per pack for the character to appear on the outside.
No one knows exactly how many machines get sold these days, all private figures, but most estimates put it under 2000 a run. Licensing something for a run that small just isn't going to break the bank. JJP is charging bank because they can, not because they have to.
I had it in my mind that licenses are 100-300$ a game. The unfortunate part is that since an unlicensed game might sell fewer copies, the price might even need to be higher to reach an appropriate economy of scale. Sound right?
Quoted from btw75:I had it in my mind that licenses are 100-300$ a game. The unfortunate part is that since an unlicensed game might sell fewer copies, the price might even need to be higher to reach an appropriate economy of scale. Sound right?
yes, and add in the extra content creation, creating video, audio, music assets from scratch. That will cost a lot more than $300 per game.
Licensed themes are great business. Original IPs are a huge gamble.
We are so far removed from 90s Williams games. If they were still making pinball, they would not be creating original themes like they did back then.
Quoted from btw75:I had it in my mind that licenses are 100-300$ a game. The unfortunate part is that since an unlicensed game might sell fewer copies, the price might even need to be higher to reach an appropriate economy of scale. Sound right?
I'm not an expert in this, so someone correct me if they know better, but no, that doesn't sound right. It should be cheaper to license for a smaller run, not more expensive. Licenses aren't physical goods, the concept of economy of scale doesn't really apply.
That's how Skit B got the Predator license, they limited the run to 250 machines (I think?) as part of the license agreement. At least that's how I understood it. They're selling them for under $5000 a pop, obviously the license didn't cripple them.
Quoted from frolic:yes, and add in the extra content creation, creating video, audio, music assets from scratch. That will cost a lot more than $300 per game.
Yes, that's the excellent point that a lot of people miss. Developing a theme from scratch is expensive and time consuming. When you can just pay Disney and get The Avengers? Done. Your characters are set, you jack the DVD cover for your translite (boooooo) and call it a day.
Quoted from Aurich:I'm not an expert in this, so someone correct me if they know better, but no, that doesn't sound right. It should be cheaper to license for a smaller run, not more expensive. Licenses aren't physical goods, the concept of economy of scale doesn't really apply.
That's how Skit B got the Predator license, they limited the run to 250 machines (I think?) as part of the license agreement. At least that's how I understood it. They're selling them for under $5000 a pop, obviously the license didn't cripple them.
Sorry - I must have not been clear. I meant that an Unlicensed run would likely be smaller due to less demand, but might cost more due to not reaching economy of scale. In other words, I was thinking that the benefit of the license (more sales of the game) would outweigh the actual cost of the license.
Quoted from btw75:Sorry - I must have not been clear. I meant that an Unlicensed run would likely be smaller due to less demand, but might cost more due to not reaching economy of scale. In other words, I was thinking that the benefit of the license (more sales of the game) would outweigh the actual cost of the license.
LTG will probably chime in, but he was saying its only $50 or so per machine to license.
Quoted from lordloss:LTG will probably chime in, but he was saying its only $50 or so per machine to license.
If that number is anywhere close to reality, then it would be nuts to go unlicensed. for $50 a machine you get:
-automatic fan base
-pre-orders on theme alone
-instant sales to crossover non-pinball people who love the theme
-assets, video, music, ready to plug and play
the alternative is to save $50 and give all that up.
I think the push for non-licensed themes is driven from nostalgia. But one only needs to look anywhere else (children's toys, slots, etc) and can see we live in a different world now.
Quoted from btw75:Sorry - I must have not been clear. I meant that an Unlicensed run would likely be smaller due to less demand, but might cost more due to not reaching economy of scale. In other words, I was thinking that the benefit of the license (more sales of the game) would outweigh the actual cost of the license.
Oh right, gotcha!
Quoted from frolic:If that number is anywhere close to reality, then it would be nuts to go unlicensed. for $50 a machine you get:
-automatic fan base
-pre-orders on theme alone
-instant sales to crossover non-pinball people who love the theme
-assets, video, music, ready to plug and play
the alternative is to save $50 and give all that up.
I think the push for non-licensed themes is driven from nostalgia. But one only needs to look anywhere else (children's toys, slots, etc) and can see we live in a different world now.
for $50 you also get a LOT of limitations on what you can do with the machine too. Like how they couldn't put any of the original songs from WOZ in the pin, or how they had to put "motion picture trilogy" on the side of the hobbit cab. there are probably a lot of aspects of the JJP line of pins that they wanted to do, but couldnt' do to license restrictions. Even with a license, did ST get the theme songs from the movie? And with a unlicenesed, you can get as many custom call outs as you want, not just one from a guy who isn't the main character.
Quoted from frolic:If that number is anywhere close to reality, then it would be nuts to go unlicensed. for $50 a machine you get:
-automatic fan base
-pre-orders on theme alone
-instant sales to crossover non-pinball people who love the theme
-assets, video, music, ready to plug and play
the alternative is to save $50 and give all that up.
I think the push for non-licensed themes is driven from nostalgia. But one only needs to look anywhere else (children's toys, slots, etc) and can see we live in a different world now.
Agreed here. It'd be madness from a business perspective if you're not doing a B/W remake. I'd like to see an edgier but still universal appealing theme from JJP, though. How about a proper NFL one?
Quoted from Guinnesstime:Agreed here. It'd be madness from a business perspective if you're not doing a B/W remake. I'd like to see an edgier but still universal appealing theme from JJP, though. How about a proper NFL one?
Universal appeal and NFL don't really go together. The same amount of people who scoffed off WOZ for the theme would do the same for a NFL.
Quoted from lordloss:Universal appeal and NFL don't really go together. The same amount of people who scoffed off WOZ for the theme would do the same for a NFL.
Per Forbes:
The NFL continues to be the most lucrative sports league in the world. The 32 teams are worth, on average, $1.17 billion.
There's just a little appeal there. 
Quoted from lordloss:for $50 you also get a LOT of limitations on what you can do with the machine too. Like how they couldn't put any of the original songs from WOZ in the pin, or how they had to put "motion picture trilogy" on the side of the hobbit cab. there are probably a lot of aspects of the JJP line of pins that they wanted to do, but couldnt' do to license restrictions. Even with a license, did ST get the theme songs from the movie? And with a unlicenesed, you can get as many custom call outs as you want, not just one from a guy who isn't the main character.
You generally can do whatever you want to pay for. Original WOZ songs may have costed more in fees, or (more likely), someone figured out they're not right for a pinball game; they sound "old" both in composition and sound quality, and it would be better to make the game with new, custom music designed *for* the game. Whomever that person would be, I agree with them.
Hobbit gets the motion picture message because that's what they licensed. They did not license the book, they licensed the movie trilogy. JJP *wants* people to think of the movies when they see the game.
Quoted from lordloss:for $50 you also get a LOT of limitations on what you can do with the machine too. Like how they couldn't put any of the original songs from WOZ in the pin, or how they had to put "motion picture trilogy" on the side of the hobbit cab. there are probably a lot of aspects of the JJP line of pins that they wanted to do, but couldnt' do to license restrictions. Even with a license, did ST get the theme songs from the movie? And with a unlicenesed, you can get as many custom call outs as you want, not just one from a guy who isn't the main character.
I would think WOZ songs, ST theme, and custom call outs (or lack of) are money decisions. You can get whatever you want if you pay for it.
I'm open to an original theme, I'm just saying from a business perspective it is not good business, and pinball is a tough enough biz to start with, without greatly reducing your market from having to create one from scratch.
a good question is where do economies of scale occur with pinball? 100 units? 500? 2000? I have to assume that those economies happen somewhere between 100 and 500. you have fixed costs and variable costs. the fixed costs (those costs associated with doing business) happen whether you do 1 widget or 1 million widgets. the variable costs are every cost associated with the production of each widget. with any new pin the costs would be of the variable sort. they already have the infrastructure in place. would they get a better price (on things like play fields and graphics) if they contracted with a third party for 3000 items as opposed to 80 items? in my opinion there would only be a slight price advantage associated with contracting for 1000's instead of 100's. for example LE's have been profitable even though they numbered in the lower 100's (prior to 2013). premiums are another example where the actual number possibly numbers under 500. to answer a popular question could a pin be profitable if less than 500 were produced? I think so. could they pass savings on to the consumer if there were no licensing fees? sure. will they? hard to say but I expect a non licensed pin to still come in at a price around $8000.
Quoted from btw75:I had it in my mind that licenses are 100-300$ a game. The unfortunate part is that since an unlicensed game might sell fewer copies, the price might even need to be higher to reach an appropriate economy of scale. Sound right?
Back when JJP first acquired the Hobbit license it was said they had to outbid Stern for it and that they are paying $200 per machine which he said was 6 times what Stern normally pays for a license. JJP will probably not lower their price by $200 though.
Quoted from harbngr:would be nice to see the price drop down as well, since if it is an unlicensed or original theme then they shouldn't have to fork over any extra cash for it for every pin sold.
When I told you it was $2K a game I guess my memory added another zero to that number, Harbngr.
Quoted from pinballaddict78:Pat Lawler is designing this game. I got this from a pretty good source...
Now, that would be interesting!
Man, if it actually turns out that Lawlor is designing an unlicensed haunted house game for JJP I will be blown away. I will also be making a space for it unless it ends up looking like crap and/or comes with a $9k+ price tag.
Maple Ridge, BC
Quoted from RazerX:It's Lawlor, c'mon at least get the name right.
unfortunately LTG has made it pretty clear that it is not Lawlor.
Quoted from mnpinball:1. It's not Harry Potter
I'm out.
Quoted from Whysnow:welcome back stranger...
Are you still getting a WOZ?
I'm still waiting it out, but it may be going up for sale soon. Got my eye on a house. 
Quoted from Whysnow:unfortunately LTG has made it pretty clear that it is not Lawlor.
Has he?
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com
Quoted from Borygard:Has he?
--Rob AnthonyPinball Classicshttp://LockWhenLit.comQuality Board Work - In Home Serviceborygard at gmail dot com
I already sent in my deposit for JJP3 #1 on the prodcution line
I am hoping LTG is all about misdirection on this one
Quoted from jarjarisgod:I'm still waiting it out, but it may be going up for sale soon. Got my eye on a house.
That is great news! Then you can build a bigger collection
Quoted from Whysnow:unfortunately LTG has made it pretty clear that it is not Lawlor.
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