United/Williams &#039;65 Pyramid Shuffle Bowl Pin Retract Issue

I have a United/Williams 1965 Pyramid Shuffle Bowler that at the start of each frame the 9 pin retracts a second or so after all the pins reset. It doesn't seem to be a mechanical issue as the pin lock relay trips and the relay trips along the vertical relay bank in back. I have cleaned a few roll over switches and tried to leave a puck on different roll over switches to try and see if I can get just the 8 pin to retract (like the 9 pin does) because the 8 pin seems to be electrically similar to the 9 pin but on the left side instead of the right side.I have been an electronics tech for years but these schematics are hard to decipher. Can anyone tell me by the attached schematics what the series of events are that would trip the 9 pin right after a full pin reset at the beginning of every frame?

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#2 6 years ago

???

Mopar

Pinside+ Member

Unknown

7y 80,050 4,180

Have you checked the contacts on the 3, 5, and 6 pins to make sure
they weren't gapped too close?

#3 6 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Does it score when it retracts? Make sure all the contacts above the pins (under the hood) are clean, as these work on a combo of switches being made. Here's a map of the switch combos; different maker but same idea. Yours may be a little different.

swdiag (resized).jpg

#4 6 years ago

???

Mopar

Pinside+ Member

Unknown

7y 80,050 4,180

Yes, you would think maybe a rollover switch, but according to the schematics, Pyramid's
8 and 9 pins don't activate through a roll over switch(s). The 9 pin energizes through
made contacts once the 3, 5, and/or 6 pin(s) are energized. I thought maybe a contact at
one of those pins were a little too close, and perhaps when a small vibration was created
when the Pin Reset Motor completed it's full revolution, a very closely gapped set of contacts
would touch which would explain why it takes a split second after all of the pins reset. Can also
check solder tabs maybe touching near the 3, 5, and 6 pins..
I really don't see anything else from the schematics unless a hidden bare wire(s) are touching..

#5 6 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Ooop, missed the diagram on the schematic the first time, but I'm guessing the N and O switches are the same as the one I posted. It's more likely something under the hood, as I said. The diagram is just to show which contacts to focus on. If 9 is going up but not scoring the coil might need replacing. Had to do a couple on my United Astro.

#6 6 years ago

BYL

DryDock

Inactive member

I will check all of this out, and Thanks Much!! I already physically and electrically swapped the 8 & 9 pin retract coils (above the pins themselves) and no change, still the 9 pops up. And Yes, it does score. It trips the relay for the 9 pin on the long, vertical relay bank mounted on the door. I then hit the rear-rollover relay twice, once for each shot (as if 2 gutter "balls" were thrown) and it did indeed score just one point.

#7 6 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Sounds like a switch on the door, and again, there's a combo involved. 9 comes off a double sw. on 5 and out the jumper.

#8 6 years ago

BYL

DryDock

Inactive member

I'm not sure what you mean by " 9 comes off a double sw. on 5 and out the jumper."....

#9 6 years ago

BYL

DryDock

Inactive member

Also, can anyone tell by the schematic exactly what directly sends power to the 9 pin trip relay? It seems to me that the 8 pin is sort of a mirror of the 9 pin, electrically speaking. Can anyone think of a way for me to trip ONLY the 8 pin? I tried laying the puck over different roll-over switches and starting a new frame but could not get just the 8 pin to trip (the 9 pin of course trips anyway). I think if can get the 8 pin to trip by itself it might go a long way to figuring out why the 9 pin trips...?

#10 6 years ago

???

Mopar

Pinside+ Member

Unknown

7y 80,050 4,180

Quoted from Mopar:
The 9 pin energizes through
made contacts once the 3, 5, and/or 6 pin(s) are energized. I thought maybe a contact at
one of those pins were a little too close, and perhaps when a small vibration was created
when the Pin Reset Motor completed it's full revolution, a very closely gapped set of contacts
would touch which would explain why it takes a split second after all of the pins reset. Can also
check solder tabs maybe touching near the 3, 5, and 6 pins..

#11 6 years ago

BYL

DryDock

Inactive member

I have a bad back so my brother cleaned/adjusted 3 of the roll-over switches he felt may be at fault. He actually took them down and worked on them and re-installed them. I will have him read this thread and have him clean/adjust the ones mentioned above and I will take care of the switches above the pins and get back to you all. Thanks! Any other advise will be appreciated!

#12 6 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Look at the first schematic. See top left where it says YELLOW? Look at layout to the bottom right of that. Those should be the switches on the door. Check colors, etc. and trace the wires to see where the contacts are. You can't get just the 8 or 9 to trip alone because you can't do that in real bowling and these copy that ruleset.

1 week later

#13 6 years ago

BYL

DryDock

Inactive member