(Topic ID: 228005)

United/Williams '65 Pyramid Shuffle Bowl -No pin reset

By DryDock

5 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 21 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by DryDock
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    Pinball (resized).png
    #1 5 years ago

    Schematics located here:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/unitedwilliams-65-pyramid-bowl-allows-one-shot-after-spare

    They say the worst thing you can do to an EM machine is NOT use it! After several weeks of not playing I found the following problem.
    After a fresh game reset two shots are thrown and the pins will not reset. Resets fine after a game reset, but if I intentionally don't get all pins it will score the pins already gone but will not reset the pins and change frames. Any suggestions? Thanks All!

    #2 5 years ago

    You'll want to check the contacts in the "Player Reset Relay" and also if that relay is energizing
    when the Frame Unit suppose to step up to the next frame. If it's not energizing, you'll want to
    clean (and always a good idea to also lube) the wiper and wiper boards on the Coin and Player
    Step Up Units. Those two units correspond together to tell the Player Reset Relay to energize
    which tells the Frame Unit to step up..
    Also cleaning and lubing (light weight grease) the Score Motor wiper board is always beneficial..

    #3 5 years ago

    Still no luck, the Player and Frame Steppers do not move in addition to the pins not resetting. I don't know if this helps but...
    If I advance the Extra Shots Stepper once, the pins will reset and the Player Change will move even if set to one player. Additional shots (I am using the Rear Rollover Relay in back instead of taking a shot) will not reset the pins unless I advance the Extra Shots Stepper again.

    #4 5 years ago

    If I manually move the plunger on the Frame Unit while a game is in play, should the pin reset motor energize? It does not...

    #5 5 years ago

    The Extra Shot stepper I believe is on a different circuit to the pin reset relay.
    And no, stepping up the frame unit will not energize the pin reset relay..
    When it is time for the Frame Unit to step up, does the Player Reset Relay
    energize? It's been quite a while since I worked on a 60s shuffle, so I'm not sure
    exactly where it is, but that relay is there in the backdoor somewhere..
    If the Player Reset Relay is not energizing, you'll want to carefully check and clean
    both the Player-Step-Up unit, and Coin-Step-Up unit..
    The Pin Reset Relay energizes through the Score Motor's wiper and wiper board. There's
    other contacts in that circuitry, but cleaning the Score Motor's wiper board is important..

    #6 5 years ago

    Thanks, I'm going to perform a meticulous cleaning on everything you suggested and I do have the proper clear lube for the contacts. Hopefully I will reporting back to you with positive results!

    #7 5 years ago

    Yes, it's important that at least all the main components have been gone through..
    On the Player Step Up wiper disc. It most likely has the spring loaded wipers. You'll
    want to make sure that those all slide in and out freely. When going through a machine,
    I always put a light weight oil (I like Remington Gun Oil) in each wiper hole and then
    push them in and out to make certain that they have no stickiness..

    #8 5 years ago

    I agree with the manufacturer's recommendation to do very little lubricating. Don't lubricate the wiper holes. I know cleaning them is harder but it's better. Here's an excerpt from the Williams Skylab manual.

    Pinball (resized).pngPinball (resized).png
    #9 5 years ago

    Doesn’t the pin reset relay operate off a score motor cam bladed switch that fires at about 350 degrees ? Have you checked the switch on the pin reset motor cam thats used in the pin reset relay hold circuit ?

    #10 5 years ago
    Quoted from pinballdaveh:Doesn’t the pin reset relay operate off a score motor cam bladed switch that fires at about 350 degrees ? Have you checked the switch on the pin reset motor cam thats used in the pin reset relay hold circuit ?

    Yes, the pin reset relay does activate through the score motors wiper and wiper board. He did mentioned that when he stepped
    up the 10th Frame unit, and the pins reset, but that travels through another circuit, but it did suggest that the pin reset relay along with
    the run out switch on the pin reset motor's cam is doing it's job okay..
    Back in the 90s, I got in ball bowlers where the rivets were worn right off the wiper blades. I replaced the rivets, lubed the wiper
    boards, and since the mid 90s, they now show very little if any wear, and all has been problem free. These are machines that got/get very much play..
    I also had problems with the snowshoe wipers where some would stick and make pour contact. Since the late 90s, I used Remington
    Gun Oil (which contains teflon) in those snowshoes, and haven't had any problems. This isn't finding these positive results with just
    10 or 12 bowlers. This is using this procedure with many, thus I have to stay with wants been successful..
    Some old vendors use to tell me that they don't grease anything. That just collects dust, which probably explains why I find so many worn
    wiper blades and full tubes of lube that the manufactures sent with the machines..

    #11 5 years ago

    Thanks all for your input! SUCCESS! Sort of... Cleaning the Player reset relay and Coin and Player Up Steppers and Lubing the disk rivets as well as cleaning/lubing the score motor disk rivets didn't seem to change anything. But when I cleaned and adjusted the switches around the Score Motor I got Pin Reset!
    But now it will Not change frames... Any Advise?
    By the way when I put my 30V test light on the coil that fires to advance frames on the stepper I don't get power until a full game reset, then the Frame Stepper reset coil fires, it fully resets then the advance coil energizes once after that, advancing one rivet and never again fires.

    #12 5 years ago

    Progress. Good news. I'm not sure if it was mentioned, but making sure that the switch stack screws are
    tightened before adjusting is always a good idea..
    The Frame's reset and step up coils fire at the start of the game because it's going through the Start Relay..
    For the Frame Unit to step up during game play, the Player Reset Relay needs to energize. If that relay is
    energizing, you'll want to first tighten the switch stack screws, then clean and adjust..

    #13 5 years ago

    Cleaned, adjusted and tightened the Player Reset Relay (3rd time). Seems to be energizing just fine, still no frame advance. Both Frame Step Coils are fine...

    #14 5 years ago

    Okay, I was going from memory from 50s Ball Bowlers. Had to check the schematics..
    If you look at the 8 position on the schematics, a bit up from the bottom you'll see the Extra
    Shot disc displayed. You'll want to clean and lightly lube its wiper board. BTW, I clean by
    spraying a solvent (I use carb cleaner) on scotch brite, then wipe off cleanly.
    Also in the circuitry you'll see is contacts from the Score Control Relay, Repeat Strike
    Relay, and a set on the 3rd position Score Motor (which I'm thinking you have already
    cleaned and adjusted), but you'll also want to service those contacts in those relays mentioned
    above. Just for a note: I see from the schematics, your machine's Frame Unit steps up
    at the start up of a game through the Frame Unit's disc when it's on the 0 (totally reset)
    position. It resets at the start up of a game through the Start Relay..
    Check if you can find that circuitry on the schematics at 8 (couldn't see the letter, probably
    C or D), and follow it up through to the Frame Step Up Unit. You'll see those relays mentioned
    with the switches in that circuitry NC (normally closed)..

    #15 5 years ago

    I did notice that when I move the Player Change disk slightly background lighting would increase a bit. Then I found one the back disk contacts (the type with insividual springs) is getting very Hot! I will attempt to locate the individual lead in question and try to trace it with the Schematics but... I have been a consumer electronics tech all my life in addition to TV/VCR/Camcorder, Computer, and most recently Biomedical Engineer. So you can imagine that I am embarrassed to say that the Schematics for these machine is nothing like I have ever seen before! Possibly because I deal almost exclusively with low-voltage DC, but the few times I tried to make heads or tails of these documents it seems my basis for comparison isn't close enough to enlighten me much. Can anyone point me to a "How to Read" document to help me with this issue?
    Thanks!

    #16 5 years ago

    As long as the original issue with this machine is solved (the pin reset issue), should I mark this Topic as "Solved" and start a new topic for the "No Frame Advance" Issue?

    #17 5 years ago

    I'm no expert in what's best, but it does seem like a good idea to start another topic maybe
    titled " Guide to read schematics" for my Pyramid Bowler.
    I'm not much good with computer, so I myself would have problems guiding you for help reading
    schematics, but many here are..
    Yes, these schematics I'm sure have differences, but once you get started, I'm certain it'll come fairly
    quick to you..
    What disc are you referring to that a snowshoe wiper (spring loaded wiper) is getting hot on? I'm sure
    the Player Up has them, and I'm thinking the Game Selector Step Up also..

    #18 5 years ago

    Just the Player-Up, seems strange that just one of the spring contacts are getting hot since the copper runs connect several spring contacts along the outer edge of the disk.

    #19 5 years ago

    Since my original problem with the pin reset is solved, and though my repair may have initiated a problem with the Player Change, it is a different issue so I started a new Topic Here:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/united-williams-65-pyramid-shuffle-bowl-no-frame-advance#post-4662224

    #20 5 years ago
    Quoted from Mopar:

    the Score Control Relay, Repeat Strike
    Relay, and a set on the 3rd position Score Motor

    Had you checked the contacts in these relays already mentioned, along with the
    contacts in the 3rd position score motor?
    Also, the circuitry goes through the Extra Shots wiper disc when the Extra Shot
    Step Up Unit is in it's total (which it normally is) reset position. You might want to make
    sure that the Extra Shot's wiper is aligned properly and squarely on its rivets..
    For sure the Extra Shot Relay is energizing when it's time for the Frame (and)
    Player Up Units should advance, right?

    2 months later
    #21 5 years ago

    Well, took some time off from this problem to deal with other life problems and thought I would go right at the Extra Shots Stepper. I found the Step-Up (not the reset) solenoid had one of it's solder terminals digging into and through another wire's insulation that runs past it. So... Problem Solved!!
    Thanks All!

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/united-williams-65-pyramid-shuffle-bowl-no-pin-reset and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.