(Topic ID: 233994)

United Shuffle Alley 1st shot relay troubleshooting question

By Newt68

5 years ago


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  • 50 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Mopar
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    #1 5 years ago

    I am new to the forum and looking for a little help in my journey to resurrect an old Shuffle Alley into working condition once again. Here is my story...

    I recently purchased what I believe is a 1953 United Shuffle Alley machine that perhaps has not been powered on for 50 years. I did my homework and took my time taking apart all the steppers and score wheels, cleaning and lubricating them. I also took apart the pin reset motor in the head (drilled out the rivets) cleaned and lubed that as well. I visually checked for loose wires, bad connections and mouse damage. Luckily all looked good. Yesterday was the big day! I powered it on!!!! The good news is it starts a game, the pins come down and the score wheels reset to 0. With the play field open I manually trip a pin switch with my hand the pins retract. Then I manually trip the rear puck switches with my hand and nothing. I would expect that to then trip the 1st shot relay, but it does not. Now, I manually trip the 1st shot relay, then trip another pin, then manually trip one of the rear puck switches the 2nd shot relay trips on its own, and the game advances to the next frame. I have checked, cleaned and adjusted the switches on the 1st shot relay and tested the coil with an meter, which is good. I am pretty new to this EM stuff so any help in further troubleshooting would be great. I am guessing I can try to jumper from the rear puck switches to the lugs on the coil??? Anything else I should be considering?

    -1
    #2 5 years ago

    Did you clean and gap those rear switches? That's where I would start.

    #3 5 years ago

    The rear switches do trip the 2nd shot relay so they seem to be working. But I should to that anyway....

    #4 5 years ago

    What's the name of your Shuffle?
    I'm pretty certain that the only set of switches besides the rear rollover switches
    in the 1st Shot Relay's circuitry is a closed set in the "1st Shot Relay".
    You mentioned that you checked all the switches in the 1st Shot Relay, but you
    might want to make sure all the solder tabs on those switches look okay..
    Also, if you close one of the rear rollover's set of contacts together with an
    alligator clip, then place the tip of a small screwdriver between the sets of
    closed contacts in the 1st Shot Relay (one at a time) so for sure they are making
    true contact, then see if the 1st Shot Relay energizes..
    One of the wires on each of the rear roller contacts is a common (probably coming
    from the common yellow). The other (I'm pretty sure) from the rear rollover contacts
    goes directly to one of the closed switches in the 1st Shot relay. So if you can see
    the wire's color code off of the rear rollover switches, it should be the same on one
    of the 1st Shot Relays closed contacts. If you find that wire in the 1st Shot Relay, you'll
    be able to put a jumper from that contact to the rear rollover contacts. Not often, but
    I have had broken wires, yet the cloth insulation was still together..
    I like to add, I"m pretty sure that same wire goes to one of the closed contacts in the
    Score Motor's 1st position, so you should be able to also jump off of that..

    #5 5 years ago

    Mopar that is some good info/tips right there. I will give your suggestions a try over the next few days and report back. As for the name of the game it is United's Liberty Shuffle Alley. Here is a picture as I found it. It really cleaned up pretty nice and I took a lot of pics along the way.

    IMG_5318 (resized).JPEGIMG_5318 (resized).JPEG
    #6 5 years ago

    Oh, and a 6" pin bowler. Are all your pins intacked and okay?
    Maybe an early 1953. but it wouldn't surprise me if it was a
    late 51/52..
    I located a Royal Shuffle schematic (1953). It should be close
    to the Liberty. It shouldn't be to hard of a fix. We'll get her..

    #7 5 years ago

    Yep all the pins are good! Looks like the 9 pin was replaced at one time. If you have a digital copy of the schematic that would great. There is a dusty schematic underneath the play field but to have it on my computer would be awesome! And yes we will get her....

    #8 5 years ago

    The schematic is torn up here and there. I'll check if I have another
    from the same era..

    #9 5 years ago

    So I put an alligator clip on one of the rear rollover switches and took a small screwdriver between all 4 closed switched and nothing happened. However, the screwdriver slipped at one point and contacted two of the closed switches at the same time and the relay energized and tripped. So it seems like the coil is good. I also took a really good look at all the solder tabs and they all look to be in good shape making good connections. Based on this info would you think I have a broken wire? It was kinda hard to tell if the color code of the wires matched up. I did not try to jump anything at this point. Mopar would love to hear your thoughts.....

    #10 5 years ago

    Yes, I would surely have to think that the wire from the rear rollovers
    for some reason isn't making it all the way to the 1st Shot Relay.
    Because the 2nd Shot Relay energizes from the rear rollover after you
    manually trip the 1st Shot Relay, tells us that the rear rollover wire is making
    it to the switch at the 1st position score motor, but not to the 1st Shot relay's
    contact. If you can make out the rear rollover wire (not the one that I believe
    goes to yellow), but the other which most likely has a tracer, and find that wire
    on one of the 1st Shot Relay closed switches, then you can jump from that
    contact to the rear roller's wire. Even if you jumped it to the other rear rollover's
    wire (I believe yellow), it would instantly energize the 1st Shot Relay as if you
    had the alligator clip on the rear rollover's switches..
    If you can't make out which 1st Shot Relay switch has the same wire as the
    rear rollover's, you may have to experimentingly do some jumping until you find
    that right switch..

    #11 5 years ago

    Sounds like a plan. I will try to locate that wire this weekend. In the event I need to fix this by soldering in a new wire would it be best to go from the rollover switch to the 1st shot relay or the first position on the score motor? Also what gauge wire would I use? Thanks for your help!

    #12 5 years ago

    Looks almost like my United "Team" Shuffle Bowler (The back glass has "Cascade" on it, but the manual and others have referred to it as a "Team" ??

    Nice to see another 6" Pin machine out there! I just need the plastic surround at the pins, may end up making one sooner or later.

    Good luck on getting her back up and running!

    IMG_7025 (resized).jpgIMG_7025 (resized).jpgIMG_7033 (resized).jpgIMG_7033 (resized).jpgIMG_7034 (resized).jpgIMG_7034 (resized).jpg
    #13 5 years ago
    Quoted from Newt68:

    ounds like a plan. I will try to locate that wire this weekend. In the event I need to fix this by soldering in a new wire would it be best to go from the rollover switch to the 1st shot relay or the first position on the score motor? Also what gauge wire would I use? Thanks for your help!

    It may be easier to detect the wire on the rollover switch, but off of the motor's 1st position
    would work the same..
    I should know, but I'm not sure what gauge wire is in the cloth that they used. For sure 18 gauge
    would be plenty.
    Let us know how it goes..

    Quoted from Nikrox2:

    I just need the plastic surround at the pins, may end up making one

    Nice looking little Shuffle!
    60/1000, also known as 1/16" Lexan works perfectly for the pin's shield. I used it many times for that
    purpose..

    IMG_1380 (1) (resized).JPGIMG_1380 (1) (resized).JPG
    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from Nikrox2:

    Looks almost like my United "Team" Shuffle Bowler (The back glass has "Cascade" on it, but the manual and others have referred to it as a "Team" ??
    Nice to see another 6" Pin machine out there! I just need the plastic surround at the pins, may end up making one sooner or later.
    Good luck on getting her back up and running!
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    Nice! Your backglass ins in way better shape than mine! There is a dusty schematic inside the machine that has Cascade crossed out replaced by Liberty. I am going to try to take some photos and stitch them together in a PDF. I used a piece of 1/16 Lexan to make the pin surround. I'll post some pic's this weekend. I am probably going to use some Lexan for the bottom shield as well.

    And thanks Mopar will keep you posted!

    #15 5 years ago

    This machine is what got me into this whole EM Pinball Hobby (Addiction??) lol I'll def look into this lexan to see what's available and how to do it. I've heard there may be an metal angle I may need to make the attachment?

    IMG_7027 (resized).jpgIMG_7027 (resized).jpgUnited Shuffle (resized).jpegUnited Shuffle (resized).jpegimage2 (resized).jpegimage2 (resized).jpeg
    #16 5 years ago

    Yes, the 1/16" Lexan will make that front turn with no problem. They may not have it
    in stock, but a place that does glass should at least be able to get it.
    I ordered mine, but got a 4' X 8' sheet..
    I have seen a flat piece of maybe 1/16" flat stock on each side used to attach
    the plastic shield, but 3 or 4 screws on each side with fender washers works fine..
    The Bally bowler has a larger pin hood, so I went with 4 screws (along with fender
    washers) on each side to secure the Lexan..
    It was a 50s United Shuffle that got me started also. The one on the right, and still
    have it..

    IMG_0716 (resized).JPGIMG_0716 (resized).JPG
    #17 5 years ago

    Good news! I cleaned the contacts on the 1st position score motor switch and it started working!! I cycled through 10 frames on single player and it seemed to work fine with the exception of the player 1 (tens) score reel not moving. 0-9 works fine. That will be the next thing to look at. Also here are some pics of the 1/16 Lexan. I bought a precut piece off of eBay. Slightly short but I made it work.

    0C3C3CE7-4FC7-4C37-AB0A-F2DB8D44C169 (resized).jpeg0C3C3CE7-4FC7-4C37-AB0A-F2DB8D44C169 (resized).jpeg732BF139-6F6A-4922-80F5-6DDE897B3A80 (resized).jpeg732BF139-6F6A-4922-80F5-6DDE897B3A80 (resized).jpegC8C02613-D981-4131-BEC6-56BAF1065312 (resized).jpegC8C02613-D981-4131-BEC6-56BAF1065312 (resized).jpeg

    #18 5 years ago

    Both of those are sweet!

    #19 5 years ago

    I’m happy to report after a few more obstacles she is now in working order.

    E291BBC3-561B-49D8-8974-35594A777353 (resized).jpegE291BBC3-561B-49D8-8974-35594A777353 (resized).jpeg
    #20 5 years ago

    Ahh cleaned up and looking good !! nice work!

    3 months later
    #21 4 years ago

    Well after over a year of regular play and no issues it finally happened. I’m not getting a second puck. Throw one and the pins raise. Throw another and any remaining pin I slide over it’s contacts the pins raise. I can keep going till all are up. But no 2nd puck or ever resets. (Unless I power off and back on)

    Suggestions or tips here ? I’ve opened her up and switches look like they’re making contact. I did recently moved her due to getting the game room finished. So that may be my issue. (And drywall dust ugh. Kept her covered. But that gets everywhere )

    As usual any and all help is appreciated

    #22 4 years ago

    Look to see if our score motor is turning to recognize that you through the first shot.

    #23 4 years ago

    It does not

    #24 4 years ago

    Pins go up. That’s all

    #25 4 years ago

    Okay, so the 1st Shot relay is energizing.
    After the 2nd shot, does the 2nd Shot relay energize? If so,
    I'd check the closed switches in the 2nd Shot Relay while it's
    in the energized position. If it's not, I'd check the closed switches
    in the 2nd Shot Relay when it's in the reset position. After the 2nd
    shot, I'd also check the score motor switches that are then closed
    on the score motor. Probably one of the top (easy to get to) set
    of switches. If then no luck, I'll see about checking on a schematic..
    One other thing. Might also want to check the closed switches
    in the 1st Shot Relay when it's in the energized position..

    #26 4 years ago

    Thanks for the help. (All of you). I’ll get on this now. And report back

    #27 4 years ago

    I’ve got her opened. The first shot relay does not activate Its like the puck relay should fire when it hits the back switches but it’s not. I’ve tried each rear switch

    #28 4 years ago

    When I manually activate the 1st shot relay after dropping pins I get no score. Nuttin. Then when I activate the 2nd shot relay it resets the pins and adds up all scores

    #29 4 years ago

    Correction. The score motor turns slightly after activating 1st shot relay. But no scores until i manually activate 2nd shot relay

    #30 4 years ago

    Oh, I thought you mentioned that the score motor turn after shooting the 1st shot.
    So it must not turn (1/4 revolution) if the 1st Shot Relay isn't energizing.

    Quoted from Nikrox2:

    When I manually activate the 1st shot relay after dropping pins I get no score. Nuttin. Then when I activate the 2nd shot relay it resets the pins and adds up all scor

    Yes, this is how it should be responding. Nothing after the 1st shot, adds after the 2nd..
    Had you checked the closed switches in the 1st Shot Relay when it's in the reset position?
    Also the closed switches at the score motor when it's in the start up position..

    #31 4 years ago

    Don’t know if this helps ?

    image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
    #32 4 years ago

    Some progress. The outer switch on the score motor (in the photo). The outside blade was contacting just the outer blade and not the inside one. So adjusted that one to be also normally closed and now the end switches on the board are working but it now activates the 2nd shot relay. 1st shot relay is still not activating ?? What activates the 1st shot relay?

    #33 4 years ago

    The 2nd Shpt relay is not suppose to activate with out the 1st Shot relay
    already energized. I sounds like you might want to put those score motor
    switches back where they were. The make/break switches do look accurate
    in the photo. Is that a before pic?
    Make sure those switches you adjusted are making and breaking properly..

    #34 4 years ago

    That was a before pic. Think I need the schematic. I don’t know how the score motor switches (or the relays for that matter) are supposed to be (as in NO or NC). So I’m blind here. Ugh

    #35 4 years ago

    I would first put the score motor switches back the way they were,
    or at least the way you thought they were, then you can send a pic..

    #36 4 years ago

    Ok, from looking at this photo- does this sound correct:

    Going from the top blade connection to the bottom in that order -

    IN the Down Position In the UP position
    1 - Normally Open Normally Closed
    2 - Normally Closed Normally Open
    3- Normally Open Normally Closed
    4 - Normally Closed Normally Open

    If so, I'll re-adjust these to this listing and see where we fall.

    #37 4 years ago

    I'm pretty sure that it's the mak/break switches you're reffering to. In the pic,
    they look to be set properly, so I'd set them back so that they're in that position.
    The center switch in each set makes with the top switch when up, and the center
    switch makes with the bottom switch when down.
    Of course never are the three switches touching at the same time..

    #38 4 years ago

    Got it. Will do. Thanks. Can’t wait to get home now! Lol

    #39 4 years ago

    And yes my Normally open (means break) and the Normally closed (means make). If I got that right. Lol

    #40 4 years ago

    Some update and some progress. Now getting the puck relay to activate the 1st shot relay. But then the other pins won’t go up when I swipe my hand on a switch on the playfield.

    IF I manually activate a pin relay (say #4). Then manually swipe my hand over the end switches the puck relay then activated and drops the 2nd shot relay.

    But no movement after that.

    I can manually drop the 1-10 pin relay to replicate a strike , and the score motor turns points add, but the score motor turns to a point now where the large relay bank stays stuck on. Like it’s not fully rotating as it should. Like it needs to turn 1/8 or 1/4 turn to make it stop.

    I only had about an hour last night. So back in there again tonight

    #41 4 years ago

    On the score motor not completing its revolution, sounds like the score motor's
    run-out switch is loosing its contact toward the end of the revolution. The score motor's
    run out switch should be a set on the top of one of the stacks. It may need to be adjusted
    a little tighter.
    After the first shot, is the 1st Shot Relay now energizing?

    #42 4 years ago

    I’ll check that But yes it does

    #43 4 years ago

    Finally had some time. But I’m stuck here. I’ll attach some photos but I’ve rotated the score motor checking the operation of each switch (open or closed when supposed to ) but it’s still sticking where the indentation on the middle cam operates the large relay bank.

    Looked for the run out switch noted above but can’t identify which one it is.

    I can manually rotate it just a bit to get it out if the indentation to stop the coil burning up and can then throw one puck again. But it still will not go to 2nd puck - which is where I started So the first issue noted above is my own creation evidently.

    I do have the manual with the switches noted for correct operation but it does not have the score motor switches

    image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg
    #44 4 years ago

    I have to fly, I have not much time but the run-out switches are a set that opens directly after
    the Bank Relay energizes. Maybe the switches are adjusted okay, but there's a loose wire on
    the solder tab..

    #45 4 years ago

    Found it and adjusted. Game is at least now to possibly even further than I started

    I can now start a new game and it clears all scores and resets pins. I can throw a strike and or spare and it behaves properly and resets pins and goes to next frame. Perfect.

    But If all pins are not scored - it does not go to next player or does not reset pins

    So. Some progress.

    #46 4 years ago

    Sorry correction. If I get a strike only it works correctly. I can knock the rest of the pins down on subsequent throws but no spare or next frame

    #47 4 years ago

    And I’m getting closer. Now down to going straight to 2nd puck. Then resets pins and next frame. So just need to find the happy medium here lol

    #48 4 years ago
    Quoted from Nikrox2:

    Now down to going straight to 2nd puck.

    I'm not sure what you're saying. The 1st and 2nd Shot Relays both energize after
    shooting the first puck?

    #49 4 years ago

    Correct. Weird. With the playfield latched open I’m getting it to go to 1st Relay then 2nd as it should. Close her up and it goes right to 2nd Relay I played about 3 games and noticed about a third worked correctly with 2 pucks. But the other 2 thirds just reset after one puck

    #50 4 years ago

    Yes, that is a little odd..
    It might be worth carefully checking if wire harnesses are moving/bending while
    the coffin is being closed, or what possibly may touch when only closed..
    Also, when you're checking when the coffin is open, are you making contact
    with the one of the rear rollover switches by hand from underneath without
    any of the rear rollovers actually being activated?
    If so, it might be that one of the rear rollovers are sticky. Probably one of the
    center ones because that's where the first puck is shot at.. I'm pretty sure you already
    checked, but you'll also want to make sure not any of the last rear rollover switches
    are gaped to close together..

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