(Topic ID: 251237)

Unfair advantages of other cities vs more remote leagues for points.


By TechnicalSteam

6 days ago



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  • Latest reply 5 days ago by plankalkul
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    #1 6 days ago

    I really got to thinking about IFPA points and wondered how some people in different states and cities can fairly compete
    with one another.

    In states where there are higher ranked players and more population IFPA gives more points for these events while other
    regions with low population of players do not.

    How can we honestly compare Ohio vs Oklahoma, St. Louis, MO vs Springfield, MO. In these examples we compare
    two states with very different player population densities. Let's say IFPA #1 individual played in both cities. He would
    receive much lower points for his efforts in the low pinball player area vas the high population pinball area.

    How is this fair? How can you truly say this person is top ranked player in role merely on his ability to compete against
    people in a more densely populated area vs another.

    What could be done to make a more fair system where players can compete ?

    #2 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    What could be done to make a more fair system where players can compete ?

    No ranking system in anything in the world is perfect...other than pinside top 100 of course.

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    How can you truly say this person is top ranked player in role merely on his ability to compete against
    people in a more densely populated area vs another.

    Can you truly say a player that beats of bunch of jamronees over the weekend in the sticks is as good as someone that plays against top competition?

    #3 6 days ago

    Would seem ranking system with weighted system to enable people in other regions a fair shake.

    #4 6 days ago

    Every event will have a different value based on format, number of players, players ranking/ratings, etc.

    All you can really do is try and build your local scene or travel.

    The rankings dont really matter until your in the top 100. Its arbitrary kinda like the pinside top 100

    Focus on your instate ranking each year to make state. win state and go to nationals. or travel to big events and beat everyone. the best players are going to win the big events 99% of the time. dont stress on your world ranking unless you have a goal and plan to be a top player and are traveling to all the big events.

    #5 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Would seem ranking system with weighted system to enable people in other regions a fair shake.

    Why? They get their fair shake. If your state is "easy," then win the state champ and move on to nationals. Head to Papa and Pinburgh and other big events.
    Competitive pinball is a sport, and like other sports it involves traveling and a bunch of shit that isn't "easy" on people; just the way it is.

    #6 6 days ago

    Beer leagues with mostly unranked players is not where you're going to get your points. Bigger events, and travel, and PLAYING WELL are going to start to normalize things out. As your ranking goes up, the points that your leagues are going to capture will increase. But if you're not playing against established players in the IFPA, how in the world could you figure out how "good" they are?

    And it goes both ways. You could have 10 players in a beer league who are some of the best in the world, and if they just play in their microcosm, they'll never climb the rankings no matter how good they are. The "weighting" comes into play at Pinburgh, TPF, and the larger events all around the country. If two of those ten players go to a big event and do well (as they should, they're the best) they're going to come home with a combined 100 points or whatever. The next beer league just got a little more IFPA point heavy. Rinse. Repeat.

    You can't arbitrarily weigh something without having something to weigh it against.

    #7 6 days ago

    Interesting discussion! Our town is just starting to get rolling on the IFPA train. It has been nice to just get more qualified players and waaaaay more events.

    -11
    #8 6 days ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Why? They get their fair shake. If your state is "easy," then win the state champ and move on to nationals. Head to Papa and Pinburgh and other big events.
    Competitive pinball is a sport, and like other sports it involves traveling and a bunch of shit that isn't "easy" on people; just the way it is.

    So people with Wealth and Entitlement - Get the Advantage.
    Soon we will need sponsorships just to get a shot at playing in top 100.

    Let's say there is a way to buy points through Charitable giving. I've heard of said loophole from others. You can rack up points simply by buying these tickets rinse and repeat.

    #9 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Let's say there is a way to buy points through Charitable giving. I've heard of said loophole from others. You can rack up points simply by buying these tickets rinse and repeat.

    ?

    #10 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    So people with Wealth and Entitlement - Get the Advantage

    Says the guy with 20 nice pins in his collection!

    #11 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    So people with Wealth and Entitlement - Get the Advantage.
    Soon we will need sponsorships just to get a shot at playing in top 100.
    Let's say there is a way to buy points through Charitable giving. I've heard of said loophole from others. You can rack up points simply by buying these tickets rinse and repeat.

    To what ends? Eventually you will actually have to compete. Either you can play or you cann't. Buying your points won't change your abilities.

    #12 6 days ago

    I don't do tournaments but it sounds like the electoral college of pinball.

    #13 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    So people with Wealth and Entitlement - Get the Advantage.
    Soon we will need sponsorships just to get a shot at playing in top 100.

    Not sure I'd call most of the top 100 wealthy people. I know a lot of people who 'slum it' when traveling to tourneys.

    Entitlement? Not sure how that is even relevant here.

    Name another game, hobby, sport, pastime that doesn't require an investment of time, travel, and $ to be at the top.

    Pinball is one of the most egalitarian competitions out there. You don't need to buy equipment, you don't need to try out, heck, you don't even have to be good to play with the world's best. You just show up, play your entrance fee and go for it.

    Man you did get pissed off at leagues last night, didn't you.

    #14 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    So people with Wealth and Entitlement - Get the Advantage.

    Wow, didn't see that coming!

    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Soon we will need sponsorships just to get a shot at playing in top 100.

    No, soon you'll have to play a lot to get in to the top 100. Big events too, with top peeps!

    People in larger citites with larger

    #15 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Let's say there is a way to buy points through Charitable giving. I've heard of said loophole from others. You can rack up points simply by buying these tickets rinse and repeat.

    The charity loophole was closed years ago. Just need to build up and get attendance in smaller cities or regions. We have had a bigger issue in our state with a particular location cheating, or as they phrased it to me "manipulating" the rules for the sake of their players. The bottom line is it's an arbitrary ranking system, those players eventually have to play the best and beat them if they want to really have that sense of accomplishment. As Ric Flair said "To be the man, you got to beat the man, Wooo!"

    #16 6 days ago

    Insert image of Keith Elwin here and you pretty much ain't shit until you can take him down...which I don't really see anyone doing any time soon.

    ricflair (resized).png
    #17 6 days ago
    Quoted from Tsskinne:

    The charity loophole was closed years ago. Just need to build up and get attendance in smaller cities or regions. We have had a bigger issue in our state with a particular location cheating, or as they phrased it to me "manipulating" the rules for the sake of their players. The bottom line is it's an arbitrary ranking system, those players eventually have to play the best and beat them if they want to really have that sense of accomplishment. As Ric Flair said "To be the man, you got to beat the man, Wooo!"

    This is happening a lot. People Capping events in specific region. They invite 40x players with x amount of points. Then advertise it publically after they already capped out. Now these 40x players have a unfair advantage over folks outside of this specific region. This capped event didn't include folks from other cities or only select people. Now this eleet group of 40x players has a advantage over everyone else in region.

    Or the tried and true small group of preplay cheets that exist in most every league. I've seen this happen more times than I can count. Usually same people or groups of people that either just write down a score close to the season high average. Or plunk in multiple quarters until they score high enough and write that down. If no one monitors preplays whats the point. With that logic I ought to be able to preplay tournament or events.

    #18 6 days ago
    Quoted from Tsskinne:

    Insert image of Keith Elwin here and you pretty much ain't shit until you can take him down...which I don't really see anyone doing any time soon.[quoted image]

    Happened last week at Cleveland I heard.

    #19 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    So people with Wealth and Entitlement - Get the Advantage.
    Soon we will need sponsorships just to get a shot at playing in top 100.
    Let's say there is a way to buy points through Charitable giving. I've heard of said loophole from others. You can rack up points simply by buying these tickets rinse and repeat.

    Yeah, all competitive sports eventually hit a paywall where you have to be able to afford to take time off and travel to major competitions. Even high level video game competitions have this, and most of them could be played at home. Many of the elite players are sponsored because they regularly have to travel the world for major competitions.

    I don't know what you mean by charitable giving to game the system (I think you might be confused about how HERB style qualification works? Or maybe you mean creating fraudulent tournaments with fake players?)

    Sure you can enter a bunch of tournaments and get a token amount of points, but they don't matter. Only your best 20 events count towards your ranking, and they decline in value over years.

    The simple fact is, if you want to be high in the rankings you have to show up and do well in the handful of major pinball tournaments.

    #20 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    Happened last week at Cleveland I heard.

    Doing it at Pinburgh is mostly what I was thinking. I don't think there is a better test of all-around pinball skill than that tournament.

    #21 6 days ago
    Quoted from poppapin:

    Says the guy with 20 nice pins in his collection!

    Sadly I rarely get a chance to play them or anyone else for that matter. It's insanity that has come to an end for now until I get Alice Cooper.. haha

    #22 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    This is happening a lot. People Capping events in specific region. They invite 40x players with x amount of points. Then advertise it publically after they already capped out. Now these 40x players have a unfair advantage over folks outside of this specific region. This capped event didn't include folks from other cities or only select people. Now this eleet group of 40x players has a advantage over everyone else in region.
    Or the tried and true small group of preplay cheets that exist in most every league. I've seen this happen more times than I can count. Usually same people or groups of people that either just write down a score close to the season high average. Or plunk in multiple quarters until they score high enough and write that down. If no one monitors preplays whats the point. With that logic I ought to be able to preplay tournament or events.

    Tournaments have players capped for practical reasons. You can only do a tournament in a reasonable amount of time based on having X amount of machines.

    Leagues aren't worth much points in general, so no one really cares about that low level cheating.

    #23 6 days ago
    Quoted from Tsskinne:

    Doing it at Pinburgh is mostly what I was thinking. I don't think there is a better test of all-around pinball skill than that tournament.

    I was impressed with pinburg! Great event. It has some minor issues such as selling out in 1 minute. What if I was a top player who had an internet outage that day or family emergency. I'd have to wait. Guess it's good they have the other event.

    #24 6 days ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    Tournaments have players capped for practical reasons. You can only do a tournament in a reasonable amount of time based on having X amount of machines.
    Leagues aren't worth much points in general, so no one really cares about that low level cheating.

    We should care. What if those players are playing 2x or 3x leagues a week. Those points add up in point desserts like MO.
    If I added up all the events in MO would they equate to the same points you could earn in Ohio or Pennsylvania?

    Is there a finite amount of points that can be earned in a region. Then one region would NOT have an advantage over another.

    If regions were capped with a max points avail and had to plan accordingly with events.

    Are the regions points weighted at the end of year. Like St. Louis vs Kansas City. Or even locally lets say Beer League 1 Vs Beer League 2.
    Seems that each league should have same value and then latter up into a city championship of top 10 League players vs other league

    #25 6 days ago

    Well no offense but we don't...and I say "we" becasue Hilton isn't here anymore

    But seriously, email them and nudge this thread, or wait for them to respond. They're more than happy to explain in excruciating detail all the ins and outs of it.

    On a side note, did you hear these bastards are charging $1 now?!?

    11
    #26 6 days ago
    Quoted from TechnicalSteam:

    So people with Wealth and Entitlement - Get the Advantage.
    Soon we will need sponsorships just to get a shot at playing in top 100.

    First off, I love the IFPA and what they are doing. I have a lot of respect for what Josh and those guys are doing for pinball and it's exposure. Who knows where pinball would be current day without efforts like theirs. That said, the faster you forget about "playing in the top 100" the happier you will be IMHO. I used to care a lot about my ranking, but I finally realized it really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things outside of being in the top handful of players. I can't travel to every big event and I can't play 5 events a week here locally, it just isn't in the cards for me, so years ago I stopped caring about my ranking and trying to keep up with the Joneses and had a much more pleasant time after that. There are so many players in and around the top 200 that are there mainly because they travel to numerous bigger events where finishing 65th will net you more points than finishing 1st in a more local tournament. Plus all the tournaments that artificially inflate IFPA points with ridiculous formats like 1 ball qualifying on 12 machines and/or simultaneous play to increase the number of games played and point values for events that the rankings in that range can lose meaning anyway.

    Beyond your IFPA ranking, there is also a efficiency percentage ranking. This number can be more accurate for players who don't travel and play in everything, since it is calculated by the total WPPR points earned by a player divided by the total WPPR points available for 1st place at any IFPA endorsed event. Even if you can't play in everything, do well in events you do play in, and your eff percentage will be lower. I have 2 small kids now so I don't play in events anymore like I used to, minus the Stern launch parties I host when a new game comes out. Because of that my overall IFPA ranking is in the 1400's now down from my lowest days in the 200's, but my efficiency percentage has been historically around 35th and it is 17th now so I know I am playing well when I do play. In the grand scheme of things for me I've had a lot of fun. Over my entire competitive career I have played in over 160 events, won the SCS, finished 1st in better than 1 out of every 4 events I played in (including national events), had a lot of fun along the way, won a lot of money and got to play with, hang with and even beat some of the best players there are...so I'm happy no matter what my IFPA ranking is...and that's what is important to me.

    #27 6 days ago

    Ya okay, lots of 65th placements here lol... I wouldn't diminish the effort it takes to travel to events and play well and comparing it to the local scene, for any of the major events it is next level competition. The top 200 players are no joke and the top 25 players are unbelievable, the rankings are pretty damn accurate in my opinion.

    Your right about one thing IFPA ranking is only one measure there are a ton of local players, non travel players that can beat anyone in any given time, that is what makes the game so great is that even the best can sometimes be beaten.

    Quoted from LesManley:

    The faster you forget about "playing the top 100" the happier you will be IMHO. I used to care a lot about my ranking, but I finally realized it really doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things outside of being in the top handful of players. I can't travel to every big event and I can't play 5 events a week here locally, it just isn't in the cards for me, so years ago I stopped caring about my ranking and trying to keep up with the Joneses and had a much more pleasant time after that. There are so many players in and around the top 100 that are there mainly because they travel to numerous bigger events where finishing 65th will net you more points than finishing 1st in a more local tournament that the rankings can lose meaning anyway. Plus all the tournaments that artificially inflate IFPA points with ridiculous formats like 1 ball qualifying on 12 machines and/or simultaneous play to increase the number of games played and point values for events often give groups of players high ranking than they probably deserve.
    Beyond your IFPA ranking, there is also a efficiency percentage ranking. This number can be more accurate for players who don't travel and play in everything, since it is calculated by the total WPPR points earned by a player divided by the total WPPR points available for 1st place at any IFPA endorsed event. Even if you can't play in everything, do well in events you do play in, and your eff percentage will be lower. I have 2 small kids now so I don't play in events anymore like I used to, minus the Stern launch parties I host when a new game comes out. Because of that my overall IFPA ranking is in the 1400's now down from my lowest days in the 200's, but my efficiency percentage is 17% so I know I am playing well when I do play. In the grand scheme of things for me, over my entire competitive career I have played in over 160 events, finished 1st in more than 1 out of every 4 events I played in (including national events), had a lot of fun along the way, won a lot of money and I have played with, hung with and beaten some of the best players there are...so I'm happy now matter what my IFPA ranking is...and that's what is important to me.

    pasted_image (resized).png
    #28 6 days ago
    Quoted from bcrage88:

    Ya okay, lots of 65th placements here lol... I wouldn't diminish the effort it takes to travel to events and play well and comparing it to the local scene, for any of the major events it is next level competition. The top 200 players are no joke and the top 25 players are unbelievable, the rankings are pretty damn accurate in my opinion.
    Your right about one thing IFPA ranking is only one measure there are a ton of local players, non travel players that can beat anyone in any given time, that is what makes the game so great is that even the best can sometimes be beaten.
    [quoted image]

    I wasn't using anyone as an example and my statements certainly don't apply to everyone, but I will definitely stand by my comment that is easier to finish 65th at a bigger event, than it is to win many local tournaments, especially if you have a solid local player base and since many bigger events are pump and dump formats where if at first you don't succeed...spend, spend again. Even though I don't travel to events or put a lot of importance in my IFPA ranking anymore, I have a lots of friends that still do and I have a great deal of respect for them. I know first hand it's not easy and that it takes a great deal of effort, time and money to travel to compete. I was just saying that if the OP isn't willing to put in the effort towards those things, then the faster he forgets about "playing in the top 100" and instead focuses on how he performs in what he does play in, then the happier he will be.

    #29 6 days ago
    Quoted from LesManley:

    I wasn't using anyone as an example and my statements certainly don't apply to everyone, but I will definitely stand by my comment that is easier to finish 65th at a bigger event, than it is to win many local tournaments, especially if you have a solid local player base...

    I can agree with that 100%. My local group consist of Colin McAlpine, Steven Bowden, Robert Byers, Mark Meserve just to name a few so winning an event here is WAY harder than finishing top 32 at something like TPF. I've qualified for A finals 4 years straight at TPF but I can't think of but 1 local event where even 3 of the 4 players I mentioned showed up and I won it. Some places are even worse. Try winning league in Pittsburgh for instance

    #30 6 days ago

    You get 9.25 points for finishing 32nd at TPF, if your league consists of all of these great players then that would be the same as probably finishing 4th or 5th on a league night if it does a 100% TGP calculation, if it doesn't then you are not comparing apples to apples. TPF had 10 of the top 50 players, a total of 28 of the top 250 players and a total of 44 of the top 500 players. So ya finishing 32nd out of 158 players in a field that strong compared to a 4th place in a tough league seems pretty reasonable to me. I agree that some leagues are tougher then other and it may not necessarily translate but for the most part I think it translates well.

    Quoted from 85vett:

    I can agree with that 100%. My local group consist of Colin McAlpine, Steven Bowden, Robert Byers, Mark Meserve just to name a few so winning an event here is WAY harder than finishing top 32 at something like TPF. I've qualified for A finals 4 years straight at TPF but I can't think of but 1 local event where even 3 of the 4 players I mentioned showed up and I won it. Some places are even worse. Try winning league in Pittsburgh for instance

    #31 6 days ago

    I'm sorry, did I say anything about fair? I just said I agree that it's easier to finish decent at a major tournament than to finish first in some leagues....

    I.e... the point I agreed to was very valid depending on location. Had zero to do with point values.

    #32 5 days ago

    Point taken...

    Quoted from 85vett:

    I'm sorry, did I say anything about fair? I just said I agree that it's easier to finish decent at a major tournament than to finish first in some leagues....
    I.e... the point I agreed to was very valid depending on location. Had zero to do with point values.

    #33 5 days ago

    Wonder if anyone has made infographics for IFPA results. Love to see where the top 100 players originate from. Is there a
    specific location that spawns better players or just higher ranked players?

    #34 5 days ago

    Here's where the top 100 are from:

    http://www.ifpapinball.com/rankings/overall.php

    And I think you're going to have pockets of people that are both better players AND higher ranked players. That's not mutually exclusive. Cleveland had GOOD players 5 years ago, but now we have GREAT players because our scene has grown tremendously. As you have people who started 5 years ago are now 5 years exposed to competition, everyone tends to get better and better. If you have a thriving scene, and participate in it significantly, the whole group is going to get better AND go higher in the rankings.

    If you move to Pittsburgh and play with/against those guys, your going to HAVE to put in the time to get better. If you're in a beer league in [insert remove destination] where nobody gives a shit and it's just for fun, that location is not going to spawn much.

    Regardless, the top 100 is going to be players from all over the world who are making the investment (time, money, travel) in becoming the highest ranked players. But I don't really think that anyone who is in the top 100 is in there accidentally as a benefactor of their location.

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