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(Topic ID: 247924)

Undocumented Gottlieb VS Pinball machine “short videos added”


By N80G80

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 69 days ago by La4s
  • Topic is favorited by 61 Pinsiders

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19
#101 1 year ago
Quoted from N80G80:

Thanks for the info Jon! Do you figure the one I have is the one that sold at auction? All I know is it was operated by an arcade in Amarillo.

There were 3 months between the doors at Gottlieb closing and the auction. (We were hoping that Gil could find a new investor and save the company before the auction). A lot of people attended the auction and I don't remember who bought this game. Probably a game operator. Most of the items being auctioned off were factory and office items such as filing cabinets, desks, machine presses, etc. Not many games were up for bidding that day. I also remember a rack of populated whitewood playfields being sold.

Kind of a sad day because we know that Gottlieb was not going to be reopened any time soon.

#102 1 year ago

Fantastic thread.
Love reading about stuff like this.

#103 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballguru:

Kind of a sad day because we know that Gottlieb was not going to be reopened any time soon.

I am a fan of the Gottliebs from this era owning a Waterworld and Cue Ball Wizard (with an eye out for a Bad Girls) and it is sad to know you guys were hoping for an investor to pull through and save the company. Is it true that it was Gottliebs investment in Keno machines or something of the sort that led to the financial downfall?

#104 1 year ago
Quoted from Foo:

10k by Christmas! Come on... someone had to say it.

20k if it had a Williams or Bally logo instead and the fanboys would be drooling over it. Sad but true.

#105 1 year ago

According to the wiki:
" Premier Technology, which returned to selling pinball machines under the name Gottlieb after the purchase, continued in operation until the summer of 1996, when the declining demand for pinball machines forced the company to cease business. Premier did not file for bankruptcy, but sold off all its assets for the benefit of its creditors."

Quoted from Matesamo:

I am a fan of the Gottliebs from this era owning a Waterworld and Cue Ball Wizard (with an eye out for a Bad Girls) and it is sad to know you guys were hoping for an investor to pull through and save the company. Is it true that it was Gottliebs investment in Keno machines or something of the sort that led to the financial downfall?

#106 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

According to the wiki:
" Premier Technology, which returned to selling pinball machines under the name Gottlieb after the purchase, continued in operation until the summer of 1996, when the declining demand for pinball machines forced the company to cease business. Premier did not file for bankruptcy, but sold off all its assets for the benefit of its creditors."

I was listening to a podcast and they had a guest who was familiar with the situation at Gottlieb at the time (for the life of me I cannot remember who it was or what podcast, sorry) and the guest mentioned a heavy investment in some sort of Keno venture that was never took off due to the tight grip on the industry by the manufacturers. I had never heard that before and would like to see if a second source had any info on it.

#107 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballguru:

Thanks Lonnie for verifying me.
One on One was designed by me in late 1995 and we made a few (three to five) prototypes in early 1996. The game was an arcade novelty game based on the existing arcade hoops style games where the object was to make as many baskets as possible during a timed game. It had an adjustable "Catch-Up" feature, where if one player fell behind by 10 points, their baskets would score more points.
The game was never made because Gottlieb closed in July 1996. I do recall seeing at least one of these sold at the liquidation auction in late 1996.

You’re very welcome, I’m glad that we’re able to get your input directly! And of course it was also thanks to the helpful staff of Pinside! Thanks to forceflow and sealclubber

Quoted from pinballguru:

A side note, I also designed an arcade novelty drag race game that used the same principle except that target hits advanced your car up a drag strip and the first car across the finish line won. Instead of a basket, this game used the drop target arrangement from Hot Shots, with standup targets replacing the drop targets. The cabinet was a side-by-side style rather than a head to head style. That game was titled "Eliminator" This game was done around 1990 and never made it past the whitewood stage and was killed when the company went to the street line design philosophy.

Looks like we’ll have to wait and see when that next whitewood game shows up and baffles everyone! That’s pretty cool. Only one of these exists as a whitewood? Did this have physical cars similar to Corvette? Or was it some sort of display?

Quoted from pinballguru:

There were 3 months between the doors at Gottlieb closing and the auction. (We were hoping that Gil could find a new investor and save the company before the auction). A lot of people attended the auction and I don't remember who bought this game. Probably a game operator. Most of the items being auctioned off were factory and office items such as filing cabinets, desks, machine presses, etc. Not many games were up for bidding that day. I also remember a rack of populated whitewood playfields being sold.
Kind of a sad day because we know that Gottlieb was not going to be reopened any time soon.

It is too bad, games like these might have proven another wind for the company. A lot of companies closed sitting on incredible ideas

#108 1 year ago

Great find! Love the back story on this also!

15
#110 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

According to the wiki:
" Premier Technology, which returned to selling pinball machines under the name Gottlieb after the purchase, continued in operation until the summer of 1996, when the declining demand for pinball machines forced the company to cease business. Premier did not file for bankruptcy, but sold off all its assets for the benefit of its creditors."

Yes, but inaccurate regarding pinball sales being the issue:

It was pinball keeping the company alive until the end. The issue was that Premier Technology bought a company called SMS with the hope of making video lottery and ultimately, slot machines. They were developing an electronic blackjack table game too (This was the early 1990s). In gaming and video lottery, each jurisdiction requires a separate license and it takes a very long time to get approved. By 1996, Premier only had 1 or 2 jurisdictions approved to sell gaming machines.

In the meantime they were paying interest on the debt for buying SMS and the interest rates were high back in the early 1990s. So this debt sapped the company dry before they could get the video lottery/gaming division producing revenue, despite decent pinball sales.

#111 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballguru:

Yes, but inaccurate regarding pinball sales being the issue: It was pinball keeping the company alive until the end.

God, that makes it even more heartbreaking! Thanks for the additional information.

#112 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballguru:

Yes, but inaccurate regarding pinball sales being the issue:
It was pinball keeping the company alive until the end. The issue was that Premier Technology bought a company called SMS with the hope of making video lottery and ultimately, slot machines. They were developing an electronic blackjack table game too (This was the early 1990s). In gaming and video lottery, each jurisdiction requires a separate license and it takes a very long time to get approved. By 1996, Premier only had 1 or 2 jurisdictions approved to sell gaming machines.
In the meantime they were paying interest on the debt for buying SMS and the interest rates were high back in the early 1990s. So this debt sapped the company dry before they could get the video lottery/gaming division producing revenue, despite decent pinball sales.

This makes alot of sense, Williams stopped producing pinballs because the slot machines were much higher profit

Jon, did Gottlieb going under open the door for Williams?

If so, makes one wonder what could have been had Gottlieb been successful in the slot endeavor, maybe stern would've failed and we would be buying new Williams/Bally?

#113 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballguru:

In the meantime they were paying interest on the debt for buying SMS and the interest rates were high back in the early 1990s. So this debt sapped the company dry before they could get the video lottery/gaming division producing revenue, despite decent pinball sales.

oh shit it's like the inverse Williams

#114 1 year ago

Mindblowing that discoveries like this are made 23 years after Gottlieb selling their assets. Now, can we please get some more pics and a video of game play

#115 1 year ago

This is one of the most interesting threads I've read on Pinside in recent years.

Owner, congratulations on getting this. And Jon, thanks so much for the insights. About the game and about Premier's history.

#116 1 year ago
Quoted from Kkuoppamaki:

Mindblowing that discoveries like this are made 23 years after Gottlieb selling their assets. Now, can we please get some more pics and a video of game play

They’ll be up by the end of the weekend I hope!

18
#117 1 year ago

I’m getting a better camera and having a friend with some video experience help me to get up a decent video and better photos.

#118 1 year ago

Created a topic for general Q&A's for Jon https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-jon-norris-gottlieb-designer-qampa-thread so we don't take this thread off topic and can focus on the awesomeness of this discovery.

#119 1 year ago
Quoted from N80G80:

I’m getting a better camera and having a friend with some video experience help me to get up a decent video and better photos.

Awesome, thanks for taking the time to do that for everyone!

#120 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

How'd you beat Lloyd to it?!

That would be my part... 30 minute drive to the sellers house!!

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#121 1 year ago
Quoted from Teknotoyz:

That would be my part... 30 minute drive to the sellers house!![quoted image]

Couldn’t have done it without you man! Thanks!

#122 1 year ago

So as far as you can tell, does it work? Can you play it now?

#123 1 year ago
Quoted from Matesamo:

I was listening to a podcast and they had a guest who was familiar with the situation at Gottlieb at the time (for the life of me I cannot remember who it was or what podcast, sorry) and the guest mentioned a heavy investment in some sort of Keno venture that was never took off due to the tight grip on the industry by the manufacturers. I had never heard that before and would like to see if a second source had any info on it.

I think it was a TOPcast episode, either the interview with Trudeau or the interview with Norris.

I had an episode, devoid of any guests (just me and Tony), where I talked about my research on street level games. Segment starts here: https://soundcloud.com/user-465086826/episode-47#t=23:18

My show notes have all my sourcing, and I note those two TOPcast episodes. I bring it up because later in the discussion (at this point: https://soundcloud.com/user-465086826/episode-47#t=54:35) I discuss the burden gaming had on Premier (to counter the myth that street level was responsible for Gottlieb's late-90s woes).

Though reading the additional comments here from pinballguru I need to note an error I made in the audio; I assumed the license issues were licensed THEMES, not actual gaming licenses. So, FYI about that.

This was before I wrote the article on the street level series for Pinball News, hence why the Show Notes were so detailed. But, if you want to learn more, there may be some more elements in the links (if you scroll down at Soundcloud you should be able to access those notes and hyperlinks).

No mention of this specific game, however (far too late given my focus was 1990-1).

#124 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

So as far as you can tell, does it work? Can you play it now?

I’m in the middle of what’ll be a 15 hour road trip to pick it up. It was working when it was picked up and playable.

#125 1 year ago

Very nice find

The date "1995" is printed on the right side of the playfield.
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Very interesting and fun to see that there is a bill acceptor installed inside.

There is also some technical details to notice:
- this game has both specific display boards, for the the 7-segment LED panels. It can be seen on the first picture that two long ribbons depart from the CPU board (A1) and goes to the displays on the aprons.
- sure that with such display system, the bookeeping/configuration is limited.
- there is a small board missing, visible on first picture near the CPU (A1) board ...

Referencing to others SYSTEM-3, like "Barbwire", the size and location, this missing board is probably a communication (A27) board used for printer.

As Isochronic_Frost said, the most important thing to do : MAKE A BACKUP of ALL EPROMs (CPU and SOUND).

#126 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

So as far as you can tell, does it work? Can you play it now?

Yes, it worked when I picked it up.

28
#127 1 year ago

19 hours
830 miles
Wayyyy too much McDonald’s
A boat load of fuel
About 4 hours of sleep

AND

1x One on One Gottlieb Prototype VS Basketball Pinball (priceless)

Playing 100% and if I may say so a lot of fun!

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#129 1 year ago

this is great! congrats!

any audits on how much it made?

#130 1 year ago

Very cool machine. This is something I would love to have in my collection since I own a lot of rare stuff and both of the Gottlieb cocktails already. Very Jealous!

#131 1 year ago
Quoted from InfiniteLives:

this is great! congrats!
any audits on how much it made?

I just got home 5 mins ago, played two games, I haven’t even tried to figure out the menu system yet.

11
#132 1 year ago
Quoted from Gundam_Pilot_:

Very cool machine. This is something I would love to have in my collection since I own a lot of rare stuff and both of the Gottlieb cocktails already. Very Jealous!

Yeah you and a handful of other people want it, at least I got a handful of pm’s already.....not sure exactly what I’m gonna do with it....I want it documented correctly, high res photos, and some gameplay videos....I’ll probably shop it out and bring it to the York show maybe? Maybe let everyone see it/play it? No idea yet though

#133 1 year ago
Quoted from N80G80:

Yeah you and a handful of other people want it, at least I got a handful of pm’s already.....not sure exactly what I’m gonna do with it....I want it documented correctly, high res photos, and some gameplay videos....I’ll probably shop it out and bring it to the York show maybe? Maybe let everyone see it/play it? No idea yet though

Or you could just leave it over my house.

#134 1 year ago
Quoted from N80G80:

Yeah you and a handful of other people want it, at least I got a handful of pm’s already.....not sure exactly what I’m gonna do with it....I want it documented correctly, high res photos, and some gameplay videos....I’ll probably shop it out and bring it to the York show maybe? Maybe let everyone see it/play it? No idea yet though

I think if I was lucky enough to have been the buyer I would enjoy owning it for a few weeks then put it up for trade. First person willing to give me enough to own two new machines or willing to trade two high end machines for it would own it. It is neat owning something rare but I would have a heck of a lot more fun with two new JJP or two new Stern pins than with one rare pin. Even a couple of the great old classics in nice shape seems like a "fair trade" to me.

Everyone contacting you will have an excuse why you show sell it to them. See if any of them want it bad enough to buy you two new pins in exchange for it. Ideally it should go somewhere where lots of people can enjoy it. But selling it cheap to one of those places there is no guarantee how long it will be their anyway. Use the National Pinball Museum as an example of what could happen to any of those places sometime down the road.

As the new owner you can do what ever you want with it but if it was me I would move it on after enjoying it for a little while.

#135 1 year ago
Quoted from too-many-pins:

I would have a heck of a lot more fun with two new JJP or two new Stern pins than with one rare pin.

LOFL!!!

This think is 5k all day. You may find some sucker at 10k that has more money than he knows what to do with, but I cant imagine anyone giving you 17k for a cocktail no matter if it is 1 of 5 made. (or 1 or 3 that likely exist).

cool to see this thing but sad to see it is more about the flip already.

19
#136 1 year ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

LOFL!!!
This think is 5k all day. You may find some sucker at 10k that has more money than he knows what to do with, but I cant imagine anyone giving you 17k for a cocktail no matter if it is 1 of 5 made. (or 1 or 3 that likely exist).
cool to see this thing but sad to see it is more about the flip already.

Not about the flip at all. Everyone that has messaged me I’ve told I have no idea what I’m doing with it. I mostly want it documented, and like I said in my last post I’m really considering bringing it to the York show so many people can see/enjoy it.

#137 1 year ago
Quoted from N80G80:

Not about the flip at all. Everyone that has messaged me I’ve told I have no idea what I’m doing with it. I mostly want it documented, and like I said in my last post I’m really considering bringing it to the York show so many people can see/enjoy it.

sorry, I did not mean about you flipping it.

I meant about the others that are not so excited about the cool and fun of finding this, but the $$$$ signs if ti were them

#138 1 year ago

I was lucky enough to get to play a few rounds with N80G80. It is a lot of fun.

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#139 1 year ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

LOFL!!!
This think is 5k all day. You may find some sucker at 10k that has more money than he knows what to do with, but I cant imagine anyone giving you 17k for a cocktail no matter if it is 1 of 5 made. (or 1 or 3 that likely exist).
cool to see this thing but sad to see it is more about the flip already.

Eh, I'd give up my houdini for it just for the rarity and the fact its another head 2 head game. I am pretty sure someone with deeper pockets than I would throw more at it though.

#140 1 year ago

How dimpled is that playfield from all those airballs?

#141 1 year ago
Quoted from dung:

Eh, I'd give up my houdini for it just for the rarity and the fact its another head 2 head game. I am pretty sure someone with deeper pockets than I would throw more at it though.

nobody wants a damn houdini!

#142 1 year ago

If this were my find, I'd be seeing $$$ and be looking to flip it.

It's not just that it's incredibly rare (it is), it's that it's the last working thing to come out of the Gottlieb factory. To disregard it as a "cocktail table" shows a pretty small-minded view of this thing. There are Gottlieb collectors who have to be salivating. Even Tim Arnold - who has a "complete" gottlieb collection of every game ever made - likely doesn't have one of these.

Williams Rat Race is also a cocktail game, an oddity, not a pinball machine, and that thing is incredibly sought after and valuable. And there's far more of those than this game (they made 10).

I'd say it's probably worth $10k to someone but I'd have my sights set higher at first if it were mine.

Maybe it's even fun? Who cares really. Super cool find. I wonder how hard it would be to get a new dome fashioned? Would go a long way.

#143 1 year ago
Quoted from gliebig:

How dimpled is that playfield from all those airballs?

No dimples and the playfield is covered in Mylar...back when they made pinball machines like tanks

#144 1 year ago
Quoted from N80G80:

No dimples and the playfield is covered in Mylar...back when they made pinball machines like tanks

Yeah gottlieb games of that era are known for their pristine playfields lol

The combination of no diamondcoat, odd mylar-free zones, and defective pinballs were not kind to many of those machines.

#145 1 year ago
Quoted from N80G80:

No dimples and the playfield is covered in Mylar...back when they made pinball machines like tanks

Got any Shaq artwork. Sounds like a retheme.

#146 1 year ago

If anything it could goto Galloping Ghost

#147 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Yeah gottlieb games of that era are known for their pristine playfields lol
The combination of no diamondcoat, odd mylar-free zones, and defective pinballs were not kind to many of those machines.

I’m probably lucky on this one as the playfield goes, it is almost entirely Mylar-ed, and I’d assume given its condition it didn’t see too much arcade time.

And I totally agree with you on the uniqueness of this being possibly the last working machine Gottlieb ever made. It’s actually a surprisingly fun game, and I’m by no means some Gottlieb fanboy, Jon just did a good job on design and whoever programmed it did well with audio and the light show.

#148 1 year ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Looks like we’ll have to wait and see when that next whitewood game shows up and baffles everyone! That’s pretty cool. Only one of these exists as a whitewood? Did this have physical cars similar to Corvette? Or was it some sort of display?

The cars were on the backbox as: (1- A string of lights or 2- Physical cars if the budget allowed). The prototype used lights to represent the cars.

#149 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballguru:

The cars were on the backbox as: (1- A string of lights or 2- Physical cars if the budget allowed). The prototype used lights to represent the cars.

Any chance you have any old photos of either of them?

#150 1 year ago
Quoted from dc2010:

This makes alot of sense, Williams stopped producing pinballs because the slot machines were much higher profit
Jon, did Gottlieb going under open the door for Williams?
If so, makes one wonder what could have been had Gottlieb been successful in the slot endeavor, maybe stern would've failed and we would be buying new Williams/Bally?

IMO, the big error from Gottlieb was not to create separate companies that could have insulated the gaming debt from the Pinball Company. Had Gottlieb never ventured into gaming (Slots), I do feel that Gottlieb Pinball would have survived the pinball market turn-down of the late 90's because they operated with a very small overhead when compared to the others.

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