We were told that additional people would be consulting on rules. That's it.

Do you KNOW that neither of these people were ever NOT consulted on Rulesets? Because, that is not in evidence.

The problem is simply that you are conflating 'Consulting (on) ' with 'Employed To Design'.

That's on you and anyone else who makes the same leap. I merely assumed that they would be bouncing ideas around and maybe appealing to people they have previously worked with on coding. NOT that Bowen, E.Priepke and Scott Danesi were building a new Spooky Machine.

Bowen said they have not implemented anything he suggested.

I bought into HWN 100% because of Bowen and Eric's alleged involvement. After R&M, I was absolutely wanting more of their creativity. Over the last 5-6 years, I've found there are certain rule and game designers I really enjoy (Lyman, Keefer, Elwin), and that games from others just don't engage me the same way. I added Bowen and Eric to the 'want' list after R&M.

Consulting, employed... terminology doesn't matter when they're actually KICKED TO THE CURB

I’m in agreement with this post, it’s good to talk about it. This is my first Spooky purchase and I really want to like the game, be a bigger fan of the company, I like Ultraman & the theme. With 2k down to reserve the game, there was a few things that I never expected would never happen.. one was that the game would reveal literally broken on the stream with Jack & Bug when the game was introduced, and after that I was hearing that there were many issues with some previous games, like balls falling out of the game, etc. that I wasn’t aware of.. another was that the code wouldn’t flow somewhat better at this point (the 2nd playfield seems like it’s not incorporated in the game that well at all, the drop target is hard to knock down, nothing really happens when you break through it, it’s like a limbo, code? Maybe, maybe not) and the last is that only 100 games would be made 6 months later. It feels Halloween definitely got prioritized seemingly unfairly more even though we knew more eventually would be manufactured and that Halloween still has some issues, so just feel that the game hasn’t made enough progress in a 1/2 a year compared to what’s out there from the same company and from everyone else too. These are 10k games! not 1k. I’m at the point now where I don’t want to sell my spot at a loss and it’s coming up, either I pay for the game and pray it works out or forfeit and nobody gets it, take the loss. I considered giving it away but that’s not really fair either it wouldn’t feel like a donation. The other decision I would think Spooky would care about? Is that it’s definitely no Butter for me. Why put another 1k into the game when it can’t even sell the spot at this point at 1k less or more? It doesn’t make sense and it’s not our fault, I think this option should be no charge at this point, the very least. I guess I just didn’t expect this ‘Kickstarter’ type of scenario from a company that previously made a few great titles already. I swear if I receive a Rush Pro before Ultraman? I won’t have the room.. 3 titles, Mando, Godzilla & Rush have all came and went at Stern in this time frame. I know Spooky is not Stern but these games are about the same price now. One thing I’m certain of is that if there are no refunds? and I bring home this game? If it’s not great when the code is finished? I’ll never buy a Spooky game again so I do hope it all works out! But just feel like I’m gambling for sure. If another game announcement is released from Spooky soon? I think that would be crazy and I’d definitely forfeit it.

SpookyCharlie take a look at my good faith deposit refunds post a few back .

Might be an easy way to settle everything.

If he were to allow good faith refunds there would be a mad dash to get deposits back at this point. It would cost the company about a half million dollars and then nothing would get accomplished as far as completing the code.

Evidence he was Consulted.

Sorry. You are trying to take someone else to task for thoughts and hopes you had, not for actions / statements they made.

This seems a bit disingenuous, unless I am wrong, Fawzma was not in involved in TNA or R&M, which I think the majority of people here would say are the best spooky games to date.

While I don't know if it is true, I've heard that Spooky wants everyone in Benton and that is why those other guys are no longer involved. I can understand that as a business decision, but if that is true, then why not say that vs dancing around why those guys are not involved and stop saying they could be doing other games in the future, if that is not likely to be the case. You are building a new team, nothing wrong with that, but why all the subterfuge?

I'll never get buying a 8K game you have never flipped, just not sure how you drop that kind of cash based on a theme or a few photos or FOMO, but everyone values money as well as risk/reward differently. While I get that many games start poorly and improve with time, seems like a real roll of the dice to drop 8K or whatever, and hope that the rules and code deliver at some point. Reality is, no pin is loved by all and few pins are universally hated, so, I'm sure many will be loving these games and others won't, just don't get buying it before you know if you like it. I've only played this game a couple of times, and it is certainly not R&M, and not even close to where that was when it was first released. I'll be curious to play it again when it is further developed to see if it appeals to me.

He was not:

This is 100% about statements they made, please see the screenshot posted.

per the owners list thread 451 is a SE: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/ultraman-owners-machine-numbers-list-1#post-6403193
I haven't seen a higher SE# listed.

Bowen WAS consulted (once) and he says so right in the quote you posted.

He was not:

Only one of these can be true.

I don't consider someone to be "consulted" on a game if you toss their advice and don't use it.

Don’t get too down on yourself. There are some good crow recipes out there.

https://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/varmint/how-to-prepare-and-cook-crow

Hmm, but…the game isnt finished so you don’t know for a fact that Bowen’s notes will never be considered.

This just isn't true. Read what Bowen actually said:

He didn't see the game before the public, and he offered advice based on him watching the video. Unsolicited advice is not consulting. Lots of people on here have offered suggestions to Spooky, are you considering that "consulting" too?

I'm not hanging my hat on the Bowen issue, because there are more systemic issues with this dual release than Bowen not assisting on rules. But, it really is plain as day that he was not involved (consulted) on this game.

Well, may I suggest you buy a Dictionary and look up the word yourself?

Because you appraently don't understand its usage.

No need to try to "argue" this. He has nothing to do with this game. He never did. He offered some advice after seeing the video, that's not "consulting".

He's not part of this game. This is a fact. Moving on...

That depends on the situation:

IF he sent an email with suggestions and his email was ignored, I concede your point 100%.

IF he had a conversation with anyone at Spooky and they listened to his advice and chose not to follow it, that is him consulting on the game.

He doesn't need to have input on the final product, nor does he need to be compensated for such. He merely has to be engaged in any aspect of discussion on rules / modes / programming and have his thoughts considered, to have been consulting.

I am guessing there is maybe a language barrier here as this is simple stuff. People complaining that their beliefs and aspirations/hopes for the game weren't satisfied aside.

Didn't we already beat this horse to death months ago - do we need another 2 pages of griping about the whole Bowen debacle? Nothing is being added to the discussion here.

Guys, no reason to fight amongst each other!

Thoughts: 2.0

SpookyCharlie needs to answer these difficult questions. (Looks to be much deeper and piling up).. Everyone that put money down on a pre-sale or that has received a game should have and still should be explained what really happened and what is happening.

Transparency is going to go a long way here. I feel it can only come from Charlie as he is the end all be all.

Refund program seem like the best way to address all that want out. No good will come of holding costumers deposit money that are not comfortable in these purchases. That will only bit you in the end. Maybe sooner than later.

Bowen is not involved.
Eric is not involved.

So what. You have 2 choices. Sell your game/preorder spot or ride this until the code is complete. It’s that easy.

I think it's been explained. Spooky has always been open with us, which is appreciated. We've heard the humble "we're small & figuring it out" thing...it's all good. What I think would be helpful at this point is a timeline plan. Let us know what to expect for the future. Goalposts for what we should expect with updates. By (insert date), complete rules will be roughed in. By (insert date), we hope to add more assets and voices. By (insert date), we hope we'll be able to get the wizard mode in. After (insert date), we will consider the game to be rules complete...more bug fixes and balances will continue to roll out.

You put down a nonrefundable deposit on a pinball machine and that's what you'll receive in the end. Griping about a "refund program" on a nonrefundable deposit for a machine you haven't even received yet is beyond absurd. Sell your spot or don't and move on.

Just please stop. You paid a non-refundable deposit. Either take ownership of the game when your number comes up or sell it. Charlie does not owe any of us an explanation of what happened. You paid for a game. You will be getting a game. This refund program you keep pushing is not a thing. Stop trying to make it a thing.

If you feel you've been wronged then contact Spooky directly, they let someone return a game for a coin door latch missing so you probably have a decent chance.

Trust me.. I'm considering this more & more with every purchase at this point. The big problem in this pinball environment and specifically with a pre-order is that companies limit the amount of games on purpose, games sell out very fast, often a few minutes, tops 1 day. Does that give the customer enough time to determine which model they would like to purchase? I remember with my Aerosmith purchase, my wife & I attended CA Extreme, played both the AS Pro & LE, a SW Pro & LE, we liked the AS Pro & LE the best and couldn't decide. We went to the boardwalk in Santa Cruz and the Arcade there has AS Pro, we played it again. We came home & decided on AS LE to purchase but could've gone either way.. that was a good time for Pinball.. but the most important things is that we had time and I 110% believe it should be that way again, at least for the initial release period. IF not? Then no more non-refundable deposits from me. How many companies can get started if we just constantly throw money at them and don't have a product for a year? That's not something to admire. It's basically a million dollar Kickstarter.

Call me an idiot but I have two UM CE spots. Some of us still believe even though a few of the past contributors/contractors are not currently involved. I just should have held out for the $1500 discounted spot instead of picking up an extra at half off

Let's see what Spooky has to say about a refund.

I can not imagine they are going to want to keep peoples deposit money it just looks like bad business to me.

I will call and will email also.

In regards to selling a pre order spots it is almost impossible unless you drop to less -$500 .

No need to jump down people's necks.

I like that a few distributors are now taking less of a deposit on NIB games. It makes sense in this environment, it also prevents some issues that I know Stern was having with some taking deposits and not putting the money where it was supposed to go.. towards the business and personal, not the games.

None of this is Spooky's problem - this is a you problem. Who knows - maybe they'll do you a solid and refund you but in that case that speaks way more to their customer service than to whether "keeping people's deposit money" is "bad business".

More importantly - this is all old news! Trying to get out of your deposit **months** after we all knew about the Bowen piece but using that as an excuse now (at a time which also happens to conveniently line up with you not being able to get what you paid in the current market) makes your appeal ring all the more hollow.

Str

Ok 14 posts and you come out the wood work.

Yup normally I'm purely a lurker but having to read about the exact same nonsense that was hashed out ages ago drew me out. But now I'm adding to the nonsense too so I'm done. Good luck with your refund endeavors.

This is me. My name , home town and lots of friends in pinball. I do not hide in the dark. I can be seen at all shows and I a proud. So shut your mouth.

Whatever dude. We waited because we were told Bug and Fawzma were aiming to make these games every bit as good as R&M. However, people aren't seeing that kind of progress, hence the griping and continuous sales of both games and spots for losses.

My game (HWN) is about ready to go, but I don't think I've ever been less excited to get a new pinball machine. From what I've seen and played, neither title is very compelling or creative. They're not *bad*, but not exciting either. Basically, exactly what I feared when I read Bowen was out. Can't really do much except hope it gets better, or bail and sell.

Hmmmm, I wonder? You both write so emphatically and with such defense/devotion to whatever Spooky says or does, as if you’re an employee or some kind of associate of Spooky….

Jeeeze, everyone - can we not rev right into personal attacks?

I think we all agree on the facts.
I think we all want the same solution.

We want this game to be awesome? Right?

Rational critique based on facts with hope for positive results is good? Yes?

OK. Stop fighting with each other. Please.

You also write like someone defending everything Spooky…

Spooky shuts down the noise by investing in awesome code taking these games to great - whether the help happens internal or external.
Expectations higher with a larger customer base and competing with other higher cost games.
Go Spooky! Simple as that.

Yeah, no. Cry more.

Not at all. Here I am defending language. Words have meanings and those meanings are not at all malleable.

Considering Spooky made comments to reassure preorder buyers that have turned out to be false, I don't think it's so unreasonable that a handful of people want refunds.

I don't think Spooky is obligated to do so, but it happened. Spooky needs to reflect on that as they continue to grow as a company and expectations rise.

I'll go back to lurking and watching the code progress while I contemplate buying someone else's spot in the line. I want to like Ultraman (I was initially bummed to have missed out on the preorder). It really depends on the direction of the code, because right now it's still more about potential then what's actually there so far. Too many unknowns for me vs what else is available for this kind of money. But I do like the theme...

revised (resized).png

Yeah that is it. You got me.

Okay, that leaves deosil with only 15 posts as the only one not responding….hmmmm…

This thread is starting to feel like Deeproot thread...sadly. I love the pin. Shoots great and plays great even with limited code. it's such a cool, weird pin. Maybe not for all....

Dang what gave it away y'all are so silly...

Let’s not go there with that type of comparison.

We all know we’re actually getting a game. We all know the Spooky crew are good people.

He didn't say anything about YOU...... defensive much?

I thought this type of bickery bullshit wasn't even allowed on owner's club posts, or is that only if you're trashing the game, not someone else?

My last post in this thread.
I just gave my $2000.00 pre order to a very dear friend free of charge. No longer a owner. He is happy and I am happy for him I think!!

After Deeproot Raza issues and this with Spooky I will not support boutique companies that do not have resources that fit my needs.

Good luck to all and if you are a pre-order that wants to get out you might be able to get a refund if you used a major credit card lots of Deeproot customers received their deposit back that way.

I will be listing my R&M soon and ACNC for sale in the market place soon also.

Good luck!!