(Topic ID: 186898)

Uh oh, are newer pins dropping in price?

By ZMeny

7 years ago


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  • 71 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Tsskinne
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    13
    #147 7 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    If there are significant number of people on this website have been buying, selling, and collecting pinball machines since the 1980s and 90s, then the people that opt to post sure don't act like they have any competent knowledge, repeatedly.
    I will give another example.
    "Also with the LCD and today's light shows, the machine will (should) be significantly more immersive"
    By whose standards?
    When has technology guaranteed success of pinball?
    This is a video game analogy, not pinball.
    The first time I heard this statement was 1978 with the advent of SS technology.
    Success of LCDs has nothing to do with pinball, LCDs is a pure augment the same that DMD did in 1991.
    Technology is not the driving force of pinball, and never has been been.
    The baseline remains the same as a nostalgic form of entertainment.
    Color screens did not make it more immersive, the direct playfield design makes a game immersive, otherwise people would not still enjoy games since the 1950s. Nor does this make this title more successful.
    Neither does light shows with fancy LEDs.
    BM66 has an LCD but is being underperformed in many locations by games made from the 1990s, including MM and AFM.
    The same can be said for TH and WoZ, not that either has done badly.
    TH has an LCD, and the reviews were flat for a reason.
    Someone will probably state, "but the code is not finished!" (another year later?), and I can tell you code does not save average playfield designs.
    Yet another fantasy tale based on game design.
    What does hurt games is INCOMPLETE game release code, no doubt.
    Which has become the hallmark of nearly every single game (with a few exceptions) in the pinball industry since 2010.
    I see more and more dingleberry comments like, "my playfield is dimpling" (all playfields dimple), "AFM is better than MM" (even though they are essentially the same game design), "Pinball 2000 was a failure" (neither title was a failure), "I put LEDs in my game and it no longer works" (because they were using alligator clips and shorting the game out with the power on), every day and say nothing.
    Why bother?
    It is like a flood now.
    Sometimes and actually very rarely now, I try and educate people before they decide to do something really stupid like blowing up their game because they are working on certain areas with the power on, mostly because I prefer people not to have a sad face and get out of the hobby out of frustration.
    Absolutely, there are more people in the hobby in the 1990s, and most joined in under the last 10 years.
    This means that people with direct experience have a responsibility from my perspective to speak up and assist, which many do not anymore simply because they are tired if being repeatedly beleaguered by things that make little sense. We are very small percentage of people now from the fanboys of today. That does not mean we should go along with less informed group thinking.
    Instead of people complaining about things or making idiotic comments, why not do something beneficial for pinball and do an educational video on how to fix a game, repair a part, or share their wealth of expertise? Even if this first requires some additional education. "The Right Stuff" for the person and the community. Another option is to support the shows they wish to attend and bring games, provide tech support, or even moderate tournaments. Who do people think supports these shows?
    Now, here is what is really back to the point at hand.
    When it comes to explaining the market, it is not about just new game pricing that drives market values.
    If people are really interested in understanding the market, start doing research.
    Read all the resources you can on how this industry works.
    Do not speculate based on opinions, but cross check, I was recommend validation.
    I don't always answer the obvious questions as these are simple, but the difficult ones that drive the market in certain directions whether cost of materials, actually title scarcity based on passage of time, or production manufacturing changes.
    Sometimes even direct percentages of games available by era, which I had some specific inquiries recently.
    Some collectors are actually responsible for writing the resources and articles people use to hallmark the hobby and industry of pinball daily.
    If that makes people feel like we are being aloof or despondent, I cannot change that, as this is not a new thing to me or the others I talking to frequently.

    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    People can go in circles and still not understand things, which I really don't comprehend in this hobby.
    Enthusiasts can talk about market, pricing, or construction of games and still no realize what is going on.
    I am not dismissing people's claims of complaints, I educate.
    Many times changes are self inflicted pinball shotgun wounds.
    Pricing is affected by people's willingness to spend money, including pre ordering things that do not exist yet.
    Construction quality is affected by people's lack of education on accepting products and methods of production.
    Market is affected by lack of understanding of the what constitutes values of titles.
    In response to "listening" regarding new games, new owners asked for thicker clear coats on playfields.
    This was not an random decision on behalf of manufacturers.
    This actually started appearing repeatedly after the most recent era of new owners around 2010, long before many people here were even in the hobby.
    Manufacturers responded accordingly.
    The tradeoff cost of performing this function was not well understood by new owners at all.
    Manufacturers did not anticipate some of the results certainly, mostly at the growth of new collectors.
    The market shifting to private owners new game sales was returning quickly starting in late 2009.
    Owners do not need to go back to the 1990s to see compare playfield changes, even look at Stern games between 1999-2005.
    Some of the most basic facts regarding playfields that need to be understood (again):
    Thicker elasticity clear coats results in more easily visible dimpling.
    This can be as little as a 1 mil thickness change.
    It is not entirely a quality control issue.
    It is unavoidable, and can even promote cracking, which I know is exceptionally bad for areas such as shooter lanes.
    Changes in material usage (clear coat chemical composition) can cause changes in playfield deformation rates.
    Application of clear coats in terms of when playfields are constructed can cause failures, especially if the time between screening and clear coat is short, or insert gluing is not allowed to dry properly.
    But owners want their games now, now, now!!!
    Manufacturers know they have to sell games while the 'hype factor' is on overdrive.
    They have to make a choice.
    Furthermore, faster gameplay and game design including ramps (airballs) can cause increased changes in playfield deformation rates.
    That is why certain Stern game titles show higher rates of dimples faster than others (TWD), if this was even considered by owners, which is was not. GB is another great recent example.
    This was even reiterated by George Gomez recently, if a person wants to listen to the interview.
    Anybody that is aware of the reproduction of IPB BBB knows that this process was not entirely new, as nearly 3/4 of all the playfields built were re sanded and recoated due to issues in 2005, but the thickness were not as distinct.
    Dozens of pinball games from BLY/WMS/GTB had rejected partial playfield runs due to issues and their CC thickness were no where near as thick as the games in the past 5 years.
    Of course, in my case, I would prefer minimal clear coats, anyway, but I guess I am a minority now.
    I am not particularly a huge fan of some type of older lacquers because it requires more delicate care of cleaning.
    Never believe those that watched the industry do not understand the changes, methods of application, or physical mediums.
    All sorts of methods of protection have been tested to protect playfields since the 1930s including entire plastic playfields.
    The base method of automotive clear coat was not tested until the late 1980s based on its modern incarnation.
    Prior to this period various lacquers were used, all were mostly successful in doing their jobs adequately.
    If a person wants a near perfect playfield, buy a spare NOS one and stick it on their wall and never use it.
    Either that or overlay the the entire playfield with a full size protector that is non-mylar made out of PETG.
    The second options works incredibly well, but reduces its "shininess" that new owners seem to so desperately want forever.
    Otherwise expect that games will wear down in time, although some damage can be slowed down with either spot mylar application and regular cleaning, waxing, and ball replacement.
    If owners do not want to do that either, I cannot help that.
    "Be preventative on what you can, fix what is required, and accept the rest".
    Private ownership is the new operator today, until pinball machines are recognized as home consumer electronics.
    At that point, when warranty practices are improved, things will be much better.
    People can demand anything they want, I am not going to complain against them, as long as they know what they truly complaining about.
    Until then, this is pinball.
    I have no idea when this last period will morph into something better for consumers, but I doubt it will happen before the next full market stall.
    It is starting to happen now, and has direct relevance to this thread.

    FFS TBK not every post needs to be a novel! I think you have some great info to share but honestly I have never made it thru the first paragraph of one of your posts as I feel like you are using my nose as a microphone and talking at me instead of to me. Again you have have some good info to share you just need to ease back on the monologues IMHO

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