(Topic ID: 186898)

Uh oh, are newer pins dropping in price?


By ZMeny

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Tsskinne
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    There are 169 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 4.
    #101 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Let me go mix a drink, think about it, and I'll be back.

    Haha, thx, please cogitate on that for a bit. That looks like a little weasel dipshit.

    Cool hand Luke?

    #102 2 years ago

    I don't want to rush into anything or it might end up something like this.

    mikey_life (resized).jpg

    #103 2 years ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    transformers is going to have to be given away before long

    Transformers LE is one of the most stable priced games right now. They've been in high 4's / low 5's on the used market for years. Their range is where it was in 2016, 2015, 2014, 2013...

    #104 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I don't want to rush into anything or it might end up something like this.

    Mikey?

    Wtf

    #105 2 years ago

    See buddy, in the few years I've been on here we've covered just about all the past we really need.

    I'd get a big T for Texas, but that ones in use right now.

    #106 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    No offense intended but what will we buy, your "stinker" collection? I don't think so.

    No offence taken and no offe se intended but you already have my GB stinker anyways. I sold my RZ too... poo poo.

    #107 2 years ago

    Not seeing it here in SoCal but it's inedible with exception of the pins that remain hot or classics.

    IMO
    I don't believe this HUO hobby is meant for you to make money. Buy it, enjoy it, mod it, take a risk, cross your fingers and sell it to break even to buy another one. Or as I do, just hold on to it and keep enjoying it.
    or Buy it, route it, coins drop, you make money, sell for less the purchase, and still make money.

    #108 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    This is the next turd burger to drop through the floor.
    What's to keep it from happening?
    They make several versions and NOTHING has an LE value for collectibility, thus the drop will be HUGE
    A few thousand of nothing special, with thousands of new NIBs coming onto the market.
    TH will be in decline for sellers and good for buyers.

    If the code doesn't improve, I'll agree...buuuut, Keith Johnson will finish it out nicely. I'll tell you the next loser: BM66. Seriously. People won't be able to give those away. It will put Transformer and XMEN tanking to shame.

    #109 2 years ago

    Some people in this thread are making interesting claims, but I'll just say...

    In what normal market do you buy anything new and expect to sell it for more a few months later? If the new pinball market is working like that on every game, the system is broken and won't last. New games should sell for less than NIB, and the discount should be relatively significant immediately.

    Back fifteen years ago, before the market went as collector heavy as it has been recently, a nib pin would immediately lose 10-20 percent upon opening it. A year old Stern Pro selling for $4000 to $4500 should be expected, not an unhappy surprise.

    As for the games some people have mentioned, I'm going to use one as a perfect example... the RZ market is depressed at the moment due to the number of people who purchased one with the intent to flip it because AMH became such a thing at the end. Since too many flippers bought it with the expectation that they could immediately make $1k or more in profit, the demand wasn't what was expected and the game is harder to sell.

    Having said that, it's still selling for that 10-20 percent less than NIB price. Due to its limited nature, when the code matures and the market stabilizes, I expect it will hold or even rise in value a bit.

    That's how the system should work. If instead, all the flippers did make $1k, it would mean Spooky Pinball left $300k on the table.

    -3
    #110 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pimp77:

    If the code doesn't improve, I'll agree...buuuut, Keith Johnson will finish it out nicely. I'll tell you the next loser: BM66. Seriously. People won't be able to give those away. It will put Transformer and XMEN tanking to shame.

    Keith is great, Lyman is great. Code won't be the issue.

    Seriously, the Stern LCD blows away what i have with Woz and so does the sound. TH, same thing.

    BM66 theme also blows away TH, which i had a deposit on for years and yanked out thankfully.

    Batman will be GREAT in all its limited glory, TH and the plus thousand runs of that over hyped pig will not. I hope JJP delivers something eventually because DI is a beyond belief awful theme as well.

    #111 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinchamp:

    No offence taken and no offe se intended but you already have my GB stinker anyways. I sold my RZ too... poo poo.

    One of the best pins ever! Agree with the RZ stinker

    #112 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    Can you please change that f ing ridiculous avatar to make another statement Diner!
    Anything would be better

    I think that avatar fits o-din perfectly! lol

    #113 2 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    I think that avatar fits o-din perfectly! lol

    Lol, i just can't think of the Deener that way. Please f ing change it!!!!

    #114 2 years ago

    I just picture that dude saying "I played two balls on Aerosmith and that game F'ing sucks!" lol

    #115 2 years ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    I think that avatar fits o-din perfectly! lol

    What about Mikey? " He won't like it, he hates everything!"

    #116 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    What about Mikey? " He won't like it, he hates everything!"

    No Mikey ....please!

    #117 2 years ago

    Alrighty then.

    #118 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Alrighty then.

    James Coburn?

    #119 2 years ago

    Sure, why not.

    #120 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Sure, why not.

    He's cool, I think the other dude was hilarious though lol

    #121 2 years ago

    That is why the upcoming release will be outstanding.

    #122 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    That is why the upcoming release will be outstanding.
    » YouTube video

    So the next pin isn't Mary Poppins? Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?

    #123 2 years ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    Nobody bought pins in the 90's so it's not a great comparison.

    ???

    This is at least the third time I have heard this statement in the past two years alone.
    A person cannot compare things they do not understand, were not around to see, or may be uninformed.

    Are enthusiasts aware that over 650+ of the 1000 TAFG were bought by private collector owners?
    This was not an operator market targeted machine.

    The collector market is small but not that small.
    Probably 20-25K worldwide in the 1990s.
    Smaller for hardcore collectors who bought new games or had collections more than 10 games.

    Large numbers of BLY/WMS/DE/AGC machines were purchased on closeout or overstock by collectors, including myself, starting as early as the 1980s, NIB or alternatively as used games based on trade ins of operators.
    It was a boom town on buyouts in the late 90s for many titles starting around 1996.

    Anyone here remember the AGC docks in 1994 with Pistol Poker, AGBGoaWT, and even a couple PtCs?
    Who bought those games?
    Operators? No way.

    Closeouts numbers on games such as SC, CV, JY, JM, NGG, and half dozen other titles and who bought them?
    Distributor sales of original MMs in competition with operators who were duking it out with privates owners for the remaining NIB games when WMS decided to shut down production?
    Pricing sale fiasco with CC in 1998 between distributors, operators, and private collectors?
    How many here made purchase runs to distributors warehouses in the 1990s including Europe?

    This makes me suspect people have very little understanding of pinball history, and who is actually in this hobby.

    If enthusiasts want to know the market, buy the upcoming 27th Edition of the Mr. Pinball Price Guide 2017.
    There might be some acquired knowledge and ability to learn something useful.

    There were a wee more than a couple people collecting pinball machines in the 1990s, and many of them are still around today.

    There is only one, TBK.

    #124 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pimp77:

    RZ is dropping because people realize it's a giant turdburger. Hobbit prices are normal, MET prices are normal, AC/DC prices are normal. I can't think of any game where the value is noticeably dropping really except RZ.

    Well, prices are dropping from the insane mark up's the first flippers were selling for!

    Now they are selling around NIB price or a bit lower for HUO which is NORMAL

    And many don't have the patience as the code is not done yet. Kind of how MET was before the big update.

    But the trend going forward will be that all or most NIB will start depreciating way faster.... but that is normal. The last few years have been an anomaly.

    #125 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    One of the best pins ever! Agree with the RZ stinker

    Ha ha!

    You have just used the same logic that other people are using for BM66

    Both games the code is not finished so both games have a way to go.......

    #126 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    There were a wee more than a couple people collecting pinball machines in the 1990s, and many of them are still around today

    Why do you think I wasn't around to see the market in the late 90's? I had my first machine at home in 1982. You do know a lot, and have the attitude to match it.

    You are right, there were people buying machines then, not Nobody, I was speaking in hyperbole. But today's market doesn't resemble the 90's. Using a examples of closeout sales while the market collapsing isn't as relevant either.

    Today's differences are obvious by answering some simple questions:
    - Are there more hobbyists buying NIB machines today than in the 90's
    - Is the % of new sales to hobbyists vs. operators greater today than in the 90's
    - is the % of all pinball sales, new and used, to hobbyists greater today than in the 90's
    - Is the market growing today or collapsing like it was in the late 90's

    My original point was that I believe SW will be a bigger seller than GB. Why?
    - There are many more SW fans than GB fans, both in the pinball hobby and outside the pinball hobby
    - GB pf was a disappointment to many. I know a lot of people like GB, but many are also turned off by its play. I am betting Richie builds a 'safer' design to attract more people to the machine.
    - Also with the LCD and today's light shows, the machine will (should) be significantly more immersive

    Were there other SW machines? Sure, but E1 stinks (hyperbole again, but it is really strange and turns off a lot people), and none of them are rated in the top 100, so they are relatively unloved by most.

    I wasn't even including people outside the hobby today, but there will be SW fanboys that buy as a first machine. The SW crowd is the perfect market segment for pinball. 30+ with disposable income.

    So to sum it up:
    Pinball = Good
    SW Pinball = Gooder

    #127 2 years ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    Why do you think I wasn't around to see the market in the late 90's? I had my first machine at home in 1982. You do know a lot, and have the attitude to match it.
    You are right, there were people buying machines then, not Nobody, I was speaking in hyperbole. But today's market doesn't resemble the 90's. Using a examples of closeout sales while the market collapsing isn't as relevant either.
    Today's differences are obvious by answering some simple questions:
    - Are there more hobbyists buying NIB machines today than in the 90's
    - Is the % of new sales to hobbyists vs. operators greater today than in the 90's
    - is the % of all pinball sales, new and used, to hobbyists greater today than in the 90's
    - Is the market growing today or collapsing like it was in the late 90's
    My original point was that I believe SW will be a bigger seller than GB. Why?
    - There are many more SW fans than GB fans, both in the pinball hobby and outside the pinball hobby
    - GB pf was a disappointment to many. I know a lot of people like GB, but many are also turned off by its play. I am betting Richie builds a 'safer' design to attract more people to the machine.
    - Also with the LCD and today's light shows, the machine will (should) be significantly more immersive
    Were there other SW machines? Sure, but E1 stinks (hyperbole again, but it is really strange and turns off a lot people), and none of them are rated in the top 100, so they are relatively unloved by most.
    I wasn't even including people outside the hobby today, but there will be SW fanboys that buy as a first machine. The SW crowd is the perfect market segment for pinball. 30+ with disposable income.
    So to sum it up:
    Pinball = Good
    SW Pinball = Gooder

    GB is Stern's best recent selling game not just because of it's theme but because of it's gameplay and unique design. I know some vocal people are turned off by it but obviously many more are fond of it's uniqueness.

    SW will sell very well depending on if it's design and gameplay are good. Certainly it will sell because of it's theme alone to some but it's lasting power will be determined by it's design and gameplay.

    #128 2 years ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    They know where they can stick their overpriced LE Darth Vader versions too

    In my collection? *blushes*

    Seriously though, if Stern pulls the Super LE crap with a $15K Darth Vader LE, then I 'm out on the LE.

    Hell, unless Star Wars Premium is priced like Aerosmith Premium, then I'm definitely out on a NIB Star Wars.

    I'll just have to wait for HUO versions to pop up in 2018 or 2019.

    Marcus

    #129 2 years ago
    Quoted from Pinballlew:

    GB is Stern's best recent selling game not just because of it's theme but because of it's gameplay and unique design

    Do we have any evidence that GB outsold AC/DC, Metallica, or Star Trek? I kind of doubt it has, but if someone has some support for numbers that would be great (I wish Stern would release their sales figures, at least for games out of production for awhile...give us a general idea).

    #130 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Do we have any evidence that GB outsold AC/DC, Metallica, or Star Trek? I kind of doubt it has, but if someone has some support for numbers that would be great (I wish Stern would release their sales figures, at least for games out of production for awhile...give us a general idea).

    I think GB is close to being a top 5 Stern game in sales. If you go off Pinside owner's lists there are some games that are ahead of it. I could see it passing up TSPP and ST but going past ACDC, Met, and LOTR is going to be difficult.

    Total Pinside ownership numbers:
    1. LOTR 1209
    2. Met 1205
    3. ACDC 1019
    4. Star Trek 902
    5. TSPP 855
    6. GB 783

    #131 2 years ago
    Quoted from MikeS:

    I think GB is close to being a top 5 Stern game in sales. If you go off Pinside owner's lists

    #132 2 years ago

    I'm sorry but I don't see any evidence in newer pins dropping in price - just try to buy one. It's crazy but you can buy NIB, keep it for 5 years then sell it near for what you paid for it.

    #133 2 years ago
    Quoted from wtatumjr:

    I'm sorry but I don't see any evidence in newer pins dropping in price - just try to buy one. It's crazy but you can buy NIB, keep it for 5 years then sell it near for what you paid for it.

    Met premium loaded with colordmd just sold asking was 6200. Those things have held steady at 6400 without colordmd for a while. I don't know

    #134 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Do we have any evidence that GB outsold AC/DC, Metallica, or Star Trek? I kind of doubt it has, but if someone has some support for numbers that would be great (I wish Stern would release their sales figures, at least for games out of production for awhile...give us a general idea).

    Just verbal evidence provided during interviews, I would have to dig a little. Pretty sure Gomez mentioned it.

    #135 2 years ago

    If there are significant number of people on this website have been buying, selling, and collecting pinball machines since the 1980s and 90s, then the people that opt to post sure don't act like they have any competent knowledge, repeatedly.

    I will give another example.
    "Also with the LCD and today's light shows, the machine will (should) be significantly more immersive"
    By whose standards?
    When has technology guaranteed success of pinball?
    This is a video game analogy, not pinball.
    The first time I heard this statement was 1978 with the advent of SS technology.
    Success of LCDs has nothing to do with pinball, LCDs is a pure augment the same that DMD did in 1991.
    Technology is not the driving force of pinball, and never has been been.
    The baseline remains the same as a nostalgic form of entertainment.

    Color screens did not make it more immersive, the direct playfield design makes a game immersive, otherwise people would not still enjoy games since the 1950s. Nor does this make this title more successful.
    Neither does light shows with fancy LEDs.
    BM66 has an LCD but is being underperformed in many locations by games made from the 1990s, including MM and AFM.
    The same can be said for TH and WoZ, not that either has done badly.
    TH has an LCD, and the reviews were flat for a reason.
    Someone will probably state, "but the code is not finished!" (another year later?), and I can tell you code does not save average playfield designs.
    Yet another fantasy tale based on game design.
    What does hurt games is INCOMPLETE game release code, no doubt.
    Which has become the hallmark of nearly every single game (with a few exceptions) in the pinball industry since 2010.

    I see more and more dingleberry comments like, "my playfield is dimpling" (all playfields dimple), "AFM is better than MM" (even though they are essentially the same game design), "Pinball 2000 was a failure" (neither title was a failure), "I put LEDs in my game and it no longer works" (because they were using alligator clips and shorting the game out with the power on), every day and say nothing.
    Why bother?
    It is like a flood now.

    Sometimes and actually very rarely now, I try and educate people before they decide to do something really stupid like blowing up their game because they are working on certain areas with the power on, mostly because I prefer people not to have a sad face and get out of the hobby out of frustration.
    Absolutely, there are more people in the hobby in the 1990s, and most joined in under the last 10 years.

    This means that people with direct experience have a responsibility from my perspective to speak up and assist, which many do not anymore simply because they are tired if being repeatedly beleaguered by things that make little sense. We are very small percentage of people now from the fanboys of today. That does not mean we should go along with less informed group thinking.

    Instead of people complaining about things or making idiotic comments, why not do something beneficial for pinball and do an educational video on how to fix a game, repair a part, or share their wealth of expertise? Even if this first requires some additional education. "The Right Stuff" for the person and the community. Another option is to support the shows they wish to attend and bring games, provide tech support, or even moderate tournaments. Who do people think supports these shows?

    Now, here is what is really back to the point at hand.

    When it comes to explaining the market, it is not about just new game pricing that drives market values.

    If people are really interested in understanding the market, start doing research.
    Read all the resources you can on how this industry works.
    Do not speculate based on opinions, but cross check, I was recommend validation.

    I don't always answer the obvious questions as these are simple, but the difficult ones that drive the market in certain directions whether cost of materials, actually title scarcity based on passage of time, or production manufacturing changes.
    Sometimes even direct percentages of games available by era, which I had some specific inquiries recently.

    Some collectors are actually responsible for writing the resources and articles people use to hallmark the hobby and industry of pinball daily.
    If that makes people feel like we are being aloof or despondent, I cannot change that, as this is not a new thing to me or the others I talking to frequently.

    #136 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    I see more and more dingleberry comments like, ... "AFM is better than MM",

    Don't quite now how that works with the other statements in that section but whatever

    #137 2 years ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    Met premium loaded with colordmd just sold asking was 6200. Those things have held steady at 6400 without colordmd for a while. I don't know

    That game was underpriced.. sold in a couple hours and looks like a line if the first sale falls thru. Not a good data point

    #138 2 years ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    Met premium loaded with colordmd just sold asking was 6200. Those things have held steady at 6400 without colordmd for a while. I don't know

    It must have been that Met remake rumor taking a bite out of prices. Kidding of course.

    Seriously though, that was a great deal and why it lasted for about 1 hour before it sold.

    #139 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Don't quite now how that works with the other statements in that section but whatever

    AFM Versus MM...
    Relevance in understanding the design of pinball, and why certain games "come back" as part of the development of titles introduced into the market. This was part of the "why" on market, without going into great detail. I mean AFMr is one the latest "newer" pinball machines right? Why was it chosen as a remake detail, and what are the ramifications regarding the original version and the market?

    Some people say once a remake is offered on an original title the first versions is "obsolete".

    Is that really true?
    What are the short term impacts?
    What is happening right now?
    What does the market say in the long term?

    All considerations of this thread.

    #140 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    people that opt to post sure don't act like they have any competent knowledge, repeatedly.
    I see more and more dingleberry comments like, "my playfield is dimpling" (all playfields dimple),

    Sorry, maybe you need to LISTEN every so often instead of just talking.

    There is a current type of playfield dimpling that is absolutely different than the 90's games and even older Sterns. There are "normal" dimples that you have to really really look for under the exact right lighting & that even out over time....and then there are some modern games that experience crater-like dimples that eventually make the playfield look like mushy clay - these do NOT even out...they will always look like shit. Now, not EVERY new game has this happen to it. A friend of mine had an STLE that looked like lumps within 100 games, while my STLE had a few "normal" dimples and remained relatively nice and smooth. A local barcade has a lineup of Sterns. Their GB, Tron, and GOT playfields look pretty smooth while their TWDLE looks like lumps.

    So, given this knowledge - don't automatically dismiss someone who's upset about their playfield dimpling...because it might be the lumpy crater type, which is not what used to happen and will not get better.

    #141 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    Relevance in understanding the design of pinball, and why certain games "come back" as part of the development of titles introduced into the market. This was part of the "why" on market, without going into great detail. I mean AFMr is one the latest "newer" pinball machines right? Why was it chosen as a remake detail, and what are the ramifications regarding the original version and the market?

    Huh? So this means MM is better than AFM?

    #142 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Huh? So this means MM is better than AFM?

    I didn't get that comment either in his essay.

    #143 2 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Huh? So this means MM is better than AFM?

    No, the repeated debate raises the discussion of WHY the game has remained successful (and considerations of the market), but at the same time there really is not a significant difference between the two titles compared together. Why a person argues that one or the other title is better, there really is no direct means to compare, as MM is the same design as AFM in comparison of pinball history.
    People that say the AFM and MM are different designs are being extremely short sighted and not informed.
    The same can be said between Steve Ritchie's designs of HS, Getaway, and NF.
    Another would be the redux of STTNG and Stern ST.
    Enthusiasts can look deeper into designs and see comparisons between games such as Theatre of Magic and TOTAN (which are the same design with different artwork, but thankfully CV was a bit more diverse and not another TOTAN rerun).
    More "doo dads" or themes but the same designs.
    Even EATPM and SS have more in common that most people realize, but they have to look closely at the designs more than just the designers.

    This does not make any of said games "bad" by any means.

    Arguing points of "Why X is better than Y" is incredibly stupid, especially when comparing designs that are identical.
    It just reveals game design ignorance and lack of experience in the hobby.

    A deeper question is "Why was X and Y successful based on design in pinball history and the market?" which requires a bit more thought.

    The best question is "How has X and Y game affected the design of pinball machines since their release in the industry?"
    This is actually quite important in terms of building games that are not only fun, but successful and long term earners, not to mention the continued interest in pinball itself.

    These questions are actually and readily considered by any pinball manufacturer and successful designer, past or present.
    They evaluate "what works and what does not."
    This would be a great discussion with designers such as George Gomez.

    For example, American Pinball's Houdini is a redirected design on Theatre of Magic, Pinball Magic, Medieval Madness, and several other previous titles. Reuse of ideas is not a bad thing, but it is not unusual by any means. Innovation is up to a designer. In this case Joe Balcer.

    #144 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    Arguing points of "Why X is better than Y" is stupid.

    You're Pinsiding wrong

    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    there really is no direct means to compare, as MM is the same design as AFM.

    man if I had a nickle for every time someone has argued they are not related...seriously.

    #145 2 years ago
    Quoted from metallik:

    That game was underpriced.. sold in a couple hours and looks like a line if the first sale falls thru. Not a good data point

    One sold yesterday for 5500. I think more and more people are dumping for Aerosmith and rumored titles

    #146 2 years ago

    People can go in circles and still not understand things, which I really don't comprehend in this hobby.
    Enthusiasts can talk about market, pricing, or construction of games and still no realize what is going on.

    I am not dismissing people's claims of complaints, I educate.

    Many times changes are self inflicted pinball shotgun wounds.
    Pricing is affected by people's willingness to spend money, including pre ordering things that do not exist yet.
    Construction quality is affected by people's lack of education on accepting products and methods of production.
    Market is affected by lack of understanding of the what constitutes values of titles.

    In response to "listening" regarding new games, new owners asked for thicker clear coats on playfields.
    This was not an random decision on behalf of manufacturers.
    This actually started appearing repeatedly after the most recent era of new owners around 2010, long before many people here were even in the hobby.
    Manufacturers responded accordingly.
    The tradeoff cost of performing this function was not well understood by new owners at all.
    Manufacturers did not anticipate some of the results certainly, mostly at the growth of new collectors.
    The market shifting to private owners new game sales was returning quickly starting in late 2009.

    Owners do not need to go back to the 1990s to see compare playfield changes, even look at Stern games between 1999-2005.

    Some of the most basic facts regarding playfields that need to be understood (again):

    Thicker elasticity clear coats results in more easily visible dimpling.
    This can be as little as a 1 mil thickness change.
    It is not entirely a quality control issue.
    It is unavoidable, and can even promote cracking, which I know is exceptionally bad for areas such as shooter lanes.
    Changes in material usage (clear coat chemical composition) can cause changes in playfield deformation rates.
    Application of clear coats in terms of when playfields are constructed can cause failures, especially if the time between screening and clear coat is short, or insert gluing is not allowed to dry properly.
    But owners want their games now, now, now!!!
    Manufacturers know they have to sell games while the 'hype factor' is on overdrive.
    They have to make a choice.
    Furthermore, faster gameplay and game design including ramps (airballs) can cause increased changes in playfield deformation rates.
    That is why certain Stern game titles show higher rates of dimples faster than others (TWD), if this was even considered by owners, which is was not. GB is another great recent example.
    This was even reiterated by George Gomez recently, if a person wants to listen to the interview.

    Anybody that is aware of the reproduction of IPB BBB knows that this process was not entirely new, as nearly 3/4 of all the playfields built were re sanded and recoated due to issues in 2005, but the thickness were not as distinct.
    Dozens of pinball games from BLY/WMS/GTB had rejected partial playfield runs due to issues and their CC thickness were no where near as thick as the games in the past 5 years.
    Of course, in my case, I would prefer minimal clear coats, anyway, but I guess I am a minority now.
    I am not particularly a huge fan of some type of older lacquers because it requires more delicate care of cleaning.

    Never believe those that watched the industry do not understand the changes, methods of application, or physical mediums.
    All sorts of methods of protection have been tested to protect playfields since the 1930s including entire plastic playfields.
    The base method of automotive clear coat was not tested until the late 1980s based on its modern incarnation.
    Prior to this period various lacquers were used, all were mostly successful in doing their jobs adequately.

    If a person wants a near perfect playfield, buy a spare NOS one and stick it on their wall and never use it.
    Either that or overlay the the entire playfield with a full size protector that is non-mylar made out of PETG.
    The second options works incredibly well, but reduces its "shininess" that new owners seem to so desperately want forever.

    Otherwise expect that games will wear down in time, although some damage can be slowed down with either spot mylar application and regular cleaning, waxing, and ball replacement.
    If owners do not want to do that either, I cannot help that.
    "Be preventative on what you can, fix what is required, and accept the rest".

    Private ownership is the new operator today, until pinball machines are recognized as home consumer electronics.
    At that point, when warranty practices are improved, things will be much better.
    People can demand anything they want, I am not going to complain against them, as long as they know what they truly complaining about.
    Until then, this is pinball.
    I have no idea when this last period will morph into something better for consumers, but I doubt it will happen before the next full market stall.
    It is starting to happen now, and has direct relevance to this thread.

    13
    #147 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    If there are significant number of people on this website have been buying, selling, and collecting pinball machines since the 1980s and 90s, then the people that opt to post sure don't act like they have any competent knowledge, repeatedly.
    I will give another example.
    "Also with the LCD and today's light shows, the machine will (should) be significantly more immersive"
    By whose standards?
    When has technology guaranteed success of pinball?
    This is a video game analogy, not pinball.
    The first time I heard this statement was 1978 with the advent of SS technology.
    Success of LCDs has nothing to do with pinball, LCDs is a pure augment the same that DMD did in 1991.
    Technology is not the driving force of pinball, and never has been been.
    The baseline remains the same as a nostalgic form of entertainment.
    Color screens did not make it more immersive, the direct playfield design makes a game immersive, otherwise people would not still enjoy games since the 1950s. Nor does this make this title more successful.
    Neither does light shows with fancy LEDs.
    BM66 has an LCD but is being underperformed in many locations by games made from the 1990s, including MM and AFM.
    The same can be said for TH and WoZ, not that either has done badly.
    TH has an LCD, and the reviews were flat for a reason.
    Someone will probably state, "but the code is not finished!" (another year later?), and I can tell you code does not save average playfield designs.
    Yet another fantasy tale based on game design.
    What does hurt games is INCOMPLETE game release code, no doubt.
    Which has become the hallmark of nearly every single game (with a few exceptions) in the pinball industry since 2010.
    I see more and more dingleberry comments like, "my playfield is dimpling" (all playfields dimple), "AFM is better than MM" (even though they are essentially the same game design), "Pinball 2000 was a failure" (neither title was a failure), "I put LEDs in my game and it no longer works" (because they were using alligator clips and shorting the game out with the power on), every day and say nothing.
    Why bother?
    It is like a flood now.
    Sometimes and actually very rarely now, I try and educate people before they decide to do something really stupid like blowing up their game because they are working on certain areas with the power on, mostly because I prefer people not to have a sad face and get out of the hobby out of frustration.
    Absolutely, there are more people in the hobby in the 1990s, and most joined in under the last 10 years.
    This means that people with direct experience have a responsibility from my perspective to speak up and assist, which many do not anymore simply because they are tired if being repeatedly beleaguered by things that make little sense. We are very small percentage of people now from the fanboys of today. That does not mean we should go along with less informed group thinking.
    Instead of people complaining about things or making idiotic comments, why not do something beneficial for pinball and do an educational video on how to fix a game, repair a part, or share their wealth of expertise? Even if this first requires some additional education. "The Right Stuff" for the person and the community. Another option is to support the shows they wish to attend and bring games, provide tech support, or even moderate tournaments. Who do people think supports these shows?
    Now, here is what is really back to the point at hand.
    When it comes to explaining the market, it is not about just new game pricing that drives market values.
    If people are really interested in understanding the market, start doing research.
    Read all the resources you can on how this industry works.
    Do not speculate based on opinions, but cross check, I was recommend validation.
    I don't always answer the obvious questions as these are simple, but the difficult ones that drive the market in certain directions whether cost of materials, actually title scarcity based on passage of time, or production manufacturing changes.
    Sometimes even direct percentages of games available by era, which I had some specific inquiries recently.
    Some collectors are actually responsible for writing the resources and articles people use to hallmark the hobby and industry of pinball daily.
    If that makes people feel like we are being aloof or despondent, I cannot change that, as this is not a new thing to me or the others I talking to frequently.

    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    People can go in circles and still not understand things, which I really don't comprehend in this hobby.
    Enthusiasts can talk about market, pricing, or construction of games and still no realize what is going on.
    I am not dismissing people's claims of complaints, I educate.
    Many times changes are self inflicted pinball shotgun wounds.
    Pricing is affected by people's willingness to spend money, including pre ordering things that do not exist yet.
    Construction quality is affected by people's lack of education on accepting products and methods of production.
    Market is affected by lack of understanding of the what constitutes values of titles.
    In response to "listening" regarding new games, new owners asked for thicker clear coats on playfields.
    This was not an random decision on behalf of manufacturers.
    This actually started appearing repeatedly after the most recent era of new owners around 2010, long before many people here were even in the hobby.
    Manufacturers responded accordingly.
    The tradeoff cost of performing this function was not well understood by new owners at all.
    Manufacturers did not anticipate some of the results certainly, mostly at the growth of new collectors.
    The market shifting to private owners new game sales was returning quickly starting in late 2009.
    Owners do not need to go back to the 1990s to see compare playfield changes, even look at Stern games between 1999-2005.
    Some of the most basic facts regarding playfields that need to be understood (again):
    Thicker elasticity clear coats results in more easily visible dimpling.
    This can be as little as a 1 mil thickness change.
    It is not entirely a quality control issue.
    It is unavoidable, and can even promote cracking, which I know is exceptionally bad for areas such as shooter lanes.
    Changes in material usage (clear coat chemical composition) can cause changes in playfield deformation rates.
    Application of clear coats in terms of when playfields are constructed can cause failures, especially if the time between screening and clear coat is short, or insert gluing is not allowed to dry properly.
    But owners want their games now, now, now!!!
    Manufacturers know they have to sell games while the 'hype factor' is on overdrive.
    They have to make a choice.
    Furthermore, faster gameplay and game design including ramps (airballs) can cause increased changes in playfield deformation rates.
    That is why certain Stern game titles show higher rates of dimples faster than others (TWD), if this was even considered by owners, which is was not. GB is another great recent example.
    This was even reiterated by George Gomez recently, if a person wants to listen to the interview.
    Anybody that is aware of the reproduction of IPB BBB knows that this process was not entirely new, as nearly 3/4 of all the playfields built were re sanded and recoated due to issues in 2005, but the thickness were not as distinct.
    Dozens of pinball games from BLY/WMS/GTB had rejected partial playfield runs due to issues and their CC thickness were no where near as thick as the games in the past 5 years.
    Of course, in my case, I would prefer minimal clear coats, anyway, but I guess I am a minority now.
    I am not particularly a huge fan of some type of older lacquers because it requires more delicate care of cleaning.
    Never believe those that watched the industry do not understand the changes, methods of application, or physical mediums.
    All sorts of methods of protection have been tested to protect playfields since the 1930s including entire plastic playfields.
    The base method of automotive clear coat was not tested until the late 1980s based on its modern incarnation.
    Prior to this period various lacquers were used, all were mostly successful in doing their jobs adequately.
    If a person wants a near perfect playfield, buy a spare NOS one and stick it on their wall and never use it.
    Either that or overlay the the entire playfield with a full size protector that is non-mylar made out of PETG.
    The second options works incredibly well, but reduces its "shininess" that new owners seem to so desperately want forever.
    Otherwise expect that games will wear down in time, although some damage can be slowed down with either spot mylar application and regular cleaning, waxing, and ball replacement.
    If owners do not want to do that either, I cannot help that.
    "Be preventative on what you can, fix what is required, and accept the rest".
    Private ownership is the new operator today, until pinball machines are recognized as home consumer electronics.
    At that point, when warranty practices are improved, things will be much better.
    People can demand anything they want, I am not going to complain against them, as long as they know what they truly complaining about.
    Until then, this is pinball.
    I have no idea when this last period will morph into something better for consumers, but I doubt it will happen before the next full market stall.
    It is starting to happen now, and has direct relevance to this thread.

    FFS TBK not every post needs to be a novel! I think you have some great info to share but honestly I have never made it thru the first paragraph of one of your posts as I feel like you are using my nose as a microphone and talking at me instead of to me. Again you have have some good info to share you just need to ease back on the monologues IMHO

    #148 2 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    People can go in circles and still not understand things, which I really don't comprehend in this hobby.
    Enthusiasts can talk about market, pricing, or construction of games and still no realize what is going on.
    I am not dismissing people's claims of complaints, I educate.
    Many times changes are self inflicted pinball shotgun wounds.
    Pricing is affected by people's willingness to spend money, including pre ordering things that do not exist yet.
    Construction quality is affected by people's lack of education on accepting products and methods of production.
    Market is affected by lack of understanding of the what constitutes values of titles.
    In response to "listening" regarding new games, new owners asked for thicker clear coats on playfields.
    This was not an random decision on behalf of manufacturers.
    This actually started appearing repeatedly after the most recent era of new owners around 2010, long before many people here were even in the hobby.
    Manufacturers responded accordingly.
    The tradeoff cost of performing this function was not well understood by new owners at all.
    Manufacturers did not anticipate some of the results certainly, mostly at the growth of new collectors.
    The market shifting to private owners new game sales was returning quickly starting in late 2009.
    Owners do not need to go back to the 1990s to see compare playfield changes, even look at Stern games between 1999-2005.
    Some of the most basic facts regarding playfields that need to be understood (again):
    Thicker elasticity clear coats results in more easily visible dimpling.
    This can be as little as a 1 mil thickness change.
    It is not entirely a quality control issue.
    It is unavoidable, and can even promote cracking, which I know is exceptionally bad for areas such as shooter lanes.
    Changes in material usage (clear coat chemical composition) can cause changes in playfield deformation rates.
    Application of clear coats in terms of when playfields are constructed can cause failures, especially if the time between screening and clear coat is short, or insert gluing is not allowed to dry properly.
    But owners want their games now, now, now!!!
    Manufacturers know they have to sell games while the 'hype factor' is on overdrive.
    They have to make a choice.
    Furthermore, faster gameplay and game design including ramps (airballs) can cause increased changes in playfield deformation rates.
    That is why certain Stern game titles show higher rates of dimples faster than others (TWD), if this was even considered by owners, which is was not. GB is another great recent example.
    This was even reiterated by George Gomez recently, if a person wants to listen to the interview.
    Anybody that is aware of the reproduction of IPB BBB knows that this process was not entirely new, as nearly 3/4 of all the playfields built were re sanded and recoated due to issues in 2005, but the thickness were not as distinct.
    Dozens of pinball games from BLY/WMS/GTB had rejected partial playfield runs due to issues and their CC thickness were no where near as thick as the games in the past 5 years.
    Of course, in my case, I would prefer minimal clear coats, anyway, but I guess I am a minority now.
    I am not particularly a huge fan of some type of older lacquers because it requires more delicate care of cleaning.
    Never believe those that watched the industry do not understand the changes, methods of application, or physical mediums.
    All sorts of methods of protection have been tested to protect playfields since the 1930s including entire plastic playfields.
    The base method of automotive clear coat was not tested until the late 1980s based on its modern incarnation.
    Prior to this period various lacquers were used, all were mostly successful in doing their jobs adequately.
    If a person wants a near perfect playfield, buy a spare NOS one and stick it on their wall and never use it.
    Either that or overlay the the entire playfield with a full size protector that is non-mylar made out of PETG.
    The second options works incredibly well, but reduces its "shininess" that new owners seem to so desperately want forever.
    Otherwise expect that games will wear down in time, although some damage can be slowed down with either spot mylar application and regular cleaning, waxing, and ball replacement.
    If owners do not want to do that either, I cannot help that.
    "Be preventative on what you can, fix what is required, and accept the rest".
    Private ownership is the new operator today, until pinball machines are recognized as home consumer electronics.
    At that point, when warranty practices are improved, things will be much better.
    People can demand anything they want, I am not going to complain against them, as long as they know what they truly complaining about.
    Until then, this is pinball.
    I have no idea when this last period will morph into something better for consumers, but I doubt it will happen before the next full market stall.
    It is starting to happen now, and has direct relevance to this thread.

    "Brevity is the soul of wit"

    #149 2 years ago
    Quoted from Concretehardt:

    FFS TBK not every post needs to be a novel! I think you have some great info to share but honestly I have never made it thru the first paragraph

    Same. I read the first paragraph (maybe 2) and move on. You have to be able to make your points in fewer words.

    #150 2 years ago

    Great... someone sell me a HUO Met pro for $4500 please...to dismiss this theory!

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