(Topic ID: 34038)

U20 chip causes this? **updated - likely BR and cap issue?**

By Nibbles

11 years ago


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#1 11 years ago

Hey guys, So I'm still working on my WCS94 restore and finally got to the main problem I knew of when I bought it (after tackling all the other problems that came up once a closer look was done).

But I knew the game had a bad U20 chip (which luckily for me is socketed, just need to wait for new chips to be shipped) - I had all plugs removed from CPU board and still got ground short error. I'm getting the ground short error on boot and then cannot use the diagnostic buttons, after reading a bunch of stuff it seems to be a bad U20 and maybe a U14. However, if I go into diagnostics (I can get the coin door buttons to work if I flip the #3 toggle switch to off or on (cant remember the name of it, but its the 8 position toggle on the WPC-S board and it does a factory reset)), and go to the all lamps + flashers test, the lights will go on but both flippers will also stroke and then I will loose ability to navigate through the menu by way of the coin-door buttons and have to power off the game.

Basically, I am just lost at this point as to what is wrong. Has the ground short error, but the inserts and illumination Also seem dim (especially when compared to brightness they give off when I go though single lamp diagnostics in the menu). Couple that with the flippers going off in the all illumination + flashers action.

Hopefully something in that makes sense (typing out in an iPhone), would those possibly be an issue with the power being delivered? Wall power is good, but haven't tested board voltages yet...

Thanks guys!

#2 11 years ago

if U20 is socketed pull it out and run the test

#3 11 years ago

You'll know once u20 is fixed. It's hard to say when something is known to be broken.

#4 11 years ago

Sorry for the long winded/random explanation above (I hate typing on an iphone). But I'm just curious if the issues are related or if they are separate issues.

I figured that it has to be a board issue since it still gives the ground short error even with all plugs pulled from the CPU board (which I'll hopefully have the replacement U20 chip by the end of the week). But the fact that the GI/inserts are dim makes me wonder if the power is also lacking - example, if I boot up the game and let it go into attract mode the frosted LED's for the ramp billboards don't even light up during the lightshow sequence; but if I go into test mode and cycle through each bulb, the individual LED's are bright and look how they should look on a functioning game.

So for the GI and insert issue, should I start with checking all test points on the board for voltage levels? Hopefully my thread isn't coming off as too much of a chit-show with the multitude of problems I just don't know where the best place would be to start with these two (probably not related) issues.

#5 11 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

if U20 is socketed pull it out and run the test

Pulled the chip, and without it in there I am still getting the ground short error row 1 (also had pulled fuses 114 and 115 to check and they are fine (reinstalled prior to testing without the U20)).

#6 11 years ago

Go to your power driver board, check TP1 to ground (left top corner of board). That should be 12 volts, but if it is 10 volts or less, it can make all of your optos continuously record even though nothing is passing through the Infrared beam. If 12 volts is low at TP1, you'll need to change BR5.

#7 11 years ago

^Awesome, thanks PBM! Will check once I get a chance and report what's up. I will likely test all points, but it is TP8 for the GI, right (should be 18V?)? Still can't think of anything that would cause all of the inserts to be dim when the game is in attract mode, but when each bulb is tested individually they light up bright.

#9 11 years ago

Thanks Chris (I always forget about pinwiki)! And after reading through, the problem with the inserts being dim could also be a burnt connector.

#10 11 years ago

The row 1 us controlled by u18 not u20. I'd start there

#11 11 years ago

Okay, so I went through and recorded all the voltages with the game in attract mode and here is what I came out with:

TP1: 14.75v
TP2: 5.17v
TP3: 5v
TP4: 0.4v
TP6: 77v
TP7: 23V
TP8: 8V

I quit focusing on the U20 chip after I thought about all the other problems the game was having outside of the ground row error it was reporting. And after seeing the TP8 voltage I could tell why my inserts were very dim, so I decided to swap out the power driver board with the one in my TZ (which I knew worked), fired it up and sure as chit the game plays without error.

So, would my likely repair be to replace BR1 and BR2, along with the C6/C7 (and probably C5/C11 as long as I'm at it)? J101 and F114/F115 all look good.

#12 11 years ago

Definately, I would do the same.
Although be careful removing the capacitors. They are a tight fit thus easier to damage the pads if you force out the cap and the solder is not heated up on both sides of the board. It is good to add solder to help heat up the solder joint.
Good luck.

#13 11 years ago

^Will do and thanks for the heads up. Hopefully the Hakko 808 will work it's magic like it did for all the clapped out transistors/resistors I already replaced on that board

#14 11 years ago

That's doing a lot of shotgunning. TP8 and TP3 are related, as the 18 volts that is at TP8 is rectified down to 12 volts at TP3.

TP8 is 18 volts. That circuit includes BR1, C6 and C7. Has nothing to do with BR2 or C5. Your +5 is already rock solid. Actually, sounds like it's had the resistor mod on the LM323 to bump the +5 up.

Don't tempt fate. Definitely clean the top of BR2 and apply some fresh heatsink compound to it, along with replacing BR1, but there's no reason to replace BR2 or its related capacitors (C4, C5)

#15 11 years ago

BR2 has caused three of my 5 WPC games to reset during multiball and/or when both flippers were pressed. BR2 being is 5volts has a heavy load on it throughout the whole machine. Replace now or later. Better now and not have the machine go down again in the near future, as it happened to me several time as well as on other machines I worked on for others as well.

#16 11 years ago

I mean no disrespect, just offering my opinion based on my experiences as well. Many people have helped me over the years, and I try to help people in return.

You are welcome to do as you please, as it is your game.

I have fixed many damaged boards where people have read on a newsgroup or forum that BR2 and C5 fixed reset issues, or changing this or that component solved this problem, and the people ended up with additional problems, because they lifted a trace or broke a plated through hole.

There are a lot of people who jump headfirst into PCB repair and end up damaging an expensive board because they got brave. If people can't do basic tests with a meter, or read a schematic, they shouldn't dive into board repair. There are too many variables and potential problems that can be caused by shotgunning parts.

Often times, BR2 and C5 is not the root cause of low +5 reset problems, and the reset problems can be remedied by doing a systematic examination such as the one outlined on pinwiki.com.

#17 11 years ago

Totally understand and definitely no offense taken. I will definitely replace BR1, C6/C7; once those are replaced I'll likely add back into the game to see if that fixed the problem (if not, diagnose from there).

But very much appreciate all the help and reassurance as to my assumptions of the main problem.

#18 11 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

I mean no disrespect, just offering my opinion based on my experiences as well. Many people have helped me over the years, and I try to help people in return.
You are welcome to do as you please, as it is your game.
I have fixed many damaged boards where people have read on a newsgroup or forum that BR2 and C5 fixed reset issues, or changing this or that component solved this problem, and the people ended up with additional problems, because they lifted a trace or broke a plated through hole.
There are a lot of people who jump headfirst into PCB repair and end up damaging an expensive board because they got brave. If people can't do basic tests with a meter, or read a schematic, they shouldn't dive into board repair. There are too many variables and potential problems that can be caused by shotgunning parts.
Often times, BR2 and C5 is not the root cause of low +5 reset problems, and the reset problems can be remedied by doing a systematic examination such as the one outlined on pinwiki.com.

Bravo John. I could not have said it better. The wholesale replacement of components usually does more harm than good. I repaired a power driver board this week that would cause resets, and the sole reason was tarnished male headers, which is way up in the disciplined list of causes.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#19 11 years ago

Finally got around to working on the board. Replaced the C6, C7, and BR1 and everything now works as it should on the original board!

Hopefully this will help someone else on the forum - I was getting the ground row 1 short error and originally thought it was a U20 chip that had crapped out; but with my GI being very dim in attract mode I started testing the voltages on the board I realized the main culprit was actually a bad C6/C7 and BR1 for my +18v.

Thanks so much for everyone's help on this!

#20 11 years ago

Glad your machine is working again. Enjoy your New Year's !!!
My party starts tomorrow at noon with 15 working machines in the house.
My guests always enjoy their time over.

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