TZ. Slow DMD animations? ...and parts suggestions.

OP
Quoted from Miguel351:
First is the ball lock area. The game plays REALLY fast(partly because the flippers are set so strong) and sometimes when I shoot the ball up to the lock, it just bounces right back out.

I have the same issue. Unless it's a slow shot, the ball bounces out.

#4 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Quoted from johnwartjr:
Here is a 'correct' 2 slot door without DBA for TZ:
http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=966&picno=21168

The non-DBA door is uncommon, I've not seen many of them on TZs.

What I've got is a three slot version of this very door. I thought it was because it was an export, but who knows what's gone on in this machine's past!

Thank you very much for the info! I've got the op manual and I'll print out your instructions as well and tackle this thing when I get home!

Quoted from gjbwalker:
I have the same issue. Unless it's a slow shot, the ball bounces out.

Yeah, my flippers are so strong, I can backhand the left ramp from the left flipper, no problem. I like a fast TZ as much as the next guy, but this one's way too fast!

#5 11 years ago

JWJ

johnwartjr

That Pinball Place

Columbus, IN

12y 77,400 6,479 14

That's an export door, correct.

My IJ and TZ are from Germany, so I'm putting that style door 'back' on them. I like the look myself.

#6 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Quoted from johnwartjr:
That's an export door, correct.

My IJ and TZ are from Germany, so I'm putting that style door 'back' on them. I like the look myself.

Personally, I don't really mind it. But I do plan, over time, to restore this TZ, piece by piece. I'm just not sure if I want to restore it to US standards(the way it would've been sold here) or to export standards(the way it was actually made).

#7 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Another thing I'm curious about is this: What parts/mods use normal items that while pinball parts outlets carry them, I could just go down to my local Sparky's and buy for just as cheap and not have to wait days for shipping?

I'm thinking mainly about the LED's, specifically the multi-color LED's for the mystery door and the clock.

#8 11 years ago

KRK

Spudgunman

Inactive member

Seattle, WA

11y 52,900 1,299 9 24

as for the slow DMD, I have seen this on my game I got worried, but it only happens like every blue moon. if I do a bunch of stuff it might get weird but its not normal... so if every time you see it ..that is weird. if you saw it once and its not happening again no worries..

also make sure your running latest roms either 9.4h or the non h version. I have seen odd slow graphics but its not the normal at all.

OP
Quoted from Miguel351:
Another thing I'm curious about is this: What parts/mods use normal items that while pinball parts outlets carry them, I could just go down to my local Sparky's and buy for just as cheap and not have to wait days for shipping?
I'm thinking mainly about the LED's, specifically the multi-color LED's for the mystery door and the clock.

I would really stick to nice LED'd from cointaker etc for pinball saves a lot of pain in the ass.
you can pick up a thin magnet for the diverter mod from a craft store (if the magnet is to big it will stick and wont flip get a thin on from looking at pictures on line)

also you can "move the gumball sign on the right to see the loop light" that requires no parts.

if you have spare pinball parts the rocket mod is quick

here is this if you didnt know
http://retroblast.arcadecontrols.com/articles/modzone.html

#9 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Quoted from Spudgunman:
so if every time you see it ..that is weird.

Every piano and slot machine animation, every end of ball animation. I think first step is to upgrade to 9.4 ROMS. I saw what the home roms do in a list, I don't want all those "features". If nothing else, I still want it to take coins to play so I can monitor the play by my nieces and nephews.

Thanks for the link, too! Some fantastic ideas there!

#10 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

I would love to see a video of the slow animation!
Can you post one to YouTube?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#11 11 years ago

GJB

gjbwalker

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Miguel351:
Yeah, my flippers are so strong, I can backhand the left ramp from the left flipper, no problem. I like a fast TZ as much as the next guy, but this one's way too fast!

I double checked my flipper coil, and it't the right one, but like you my left flipper is super strong.

#12 11 years ago

???

jimjam

Inactive member

Melbourne

12y 26,800 175

OP
Quoted from Miguel351:
First is the ball lock area. The game plays REALLY fast(partly because the flippers are set so strong) and sometimes when I shoot the ball up to the lock, it just bounces right back out. Granted, I haven't checked to see if there's actually something blocking the passage, I just thought I'd ask the braintrust here if this sounds familiar for a TZ.

you have to mod your lock scoop, I ground off a spot weld to lower the ramp. 9 out of 10 shots would bounce out now no bounce outs ever. sorry dont have a pic I did it years ago and I found the mod on the internet.

#13 11 years ago

GJB

gjbwalker

Pinside member

you have to mod your lock scoop, I ground off a spot weld to lower the ramp. 9 out of 10 shots would bounce out now no bounce outs ever. sorry dont have a pic I did it years ago and I found the mod on the internet.

I found a thread on that, but also some people had success with bending the tab on the back of the ramp as well.

tumblr_lzpai4ljyy1rojufeo1_1280.jpg

#14 11 years ago

KRK

Spudgunman

Inactive member

Seattle, WA

11y 52,900 1,299 9 24

Quoted from gjbwalker:
I found a thread on that, but also some people had success with bending the tab on the back of the ramp as well.

Bend up or down? Where is the thread?

#15 11 years ago

GJB

gjbwalker

Pinside member

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rec.games.pinball/zxi-NNh8HGc

Quoted from Spudgunman:
Bend up or down? Where is the thread?

Bent up.

Here is the thread with multiple suggestions:

#16 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

You guys are awesome. Truly.

I'm nailing the lock everytime, and 9 out of 10, it bounces out. I really hurts when you're trying to get the second chance multiball!

ChrisHibler- I can take a video of it, but I'll have to create a Youtube account to upload it. Unless you'd rather have me just email it to you. Or, better yet, if you've got an iPhone and use iMessage, I can just send it to you that way. Whatever would work for you is fine by me.

And as for the strong flippers, I'm going to be adjusting the playfield angle very soon. I noticed last night that it's about as flat as it'll go. That'll slow ball speed down a bit, but I still think I'll need to adjust the coils....

#17 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Hi Miguel,

I don't have iMessage. YouTube would be best so more techs can weigh in. I've never seen the slo-mo problem before.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#18 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Quoted from ChrisHibler:
I've never seen the slo-mo problem before.

Boy, don't I feel special.

I did a RAM test as well as a full display test and the RAM checked out ok, but the far right vertical row on the DMD is out. One whole row out shouldn't cause the slowdown, I would think. Does the fact that the sound matches the timing of the slowed animations mean anything to you guys? You're the experts, so I want to give you as much info as possible.

#19 11 years ago

???

jimjam

Inactive member

Melbourne

12y 26,800 175

if your machine is stock you will have to do more factory fixes

clock overheat problems, slot machine target bracing to stop air balls, power ball switch 26 detection faults, etc. you can find all the fixes here.

#20 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

OP
Quoted from Miguel351:
Boy, don't I feel special.
I did a RAM test as well as a full display test and the RAM checked out ok, but the far right vertical row on the DMD is out. One whole row out shouldn't cause the slowdown, I would think. Does the fact that the sound matches the timing of the slowed animations mean anything to you guys? You're the experts, so I want to give you as much info as possible.

Good test. The sound matches the video? Verrryyyyyy interesting. Now I have to see a video.

It's must be TZ weekend. I've fixed two of them so far. Lets make it three!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#21 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Quoted from ChrisHibler:
Now I have to see a video.

I'll definitely get on this tonight and will update here when I post it on YouTube.

Quoted from ChrisHibler:
Lets make it three!

Let's do it!

Quoted from jimjam:
clock overheat problems, slot machine target bracing to stop air balls, power ball switch 26 detection faults, etc.

I've already fixed a few items here and there, including the switch 26/trough opto and the clock board. I'll have to look at the slot target, too. I have been getting a few air balls recently, and with my strong flippers, I feel like I'll be breaking targets pretty soon, too!

Thanks again everybody!

#22 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Here is the video, hot off the press!

Discuss....

#23 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Well...seeing is believing. That is one very strange "slo-mo".
I don't have a power/driver board in my game right now or I'd compare the animation. Your slot machine animation looks like it has another animation under the slot reels, which is odd. And, the reels don't cover the whole DMD left to right.

What ROM version are you running?
You can find this out when the game boots or if you press the diagnostic button.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#24 11 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

Firebird Pinball

Phoenix, AZ

11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

I just fixed this exact slow animations thing on my TZ. In additions to the slow animations I would also get some random dots and lines in the main title screen and sometimes the display was solid dots during boot up.

The data lines for the display board are also shared with the flipper board and the sound board. Remove the ribbon cables going to the sound board and flipper board and try this again to see if the animation returns to the correct speed. If it does replug the flipper and display boards one at a time to see which board is causing it (on mine it was 2 inputs on the sound board that were shorted together). If it doesn't go away try replacing the ribbon cables and if it still doesn't go away replace the display driver board (or try swapping in a known good CPU)

Once you have it narrowed down to a specific board this will be easier to troubleshoot.

#25 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Interesting Chris. Thanks for chiming in.
The shorted signals must not have been on the data bus as that would have hosed up a lot of things and the game wouldn't have booted.

Miguel...when you get this tracked down, I want to add it to the Wiki as this is a very odd problem.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#26 11 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

Firebird Pinball

Phoenix, AZ

11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

Now if anyone can help me with a odd problem on a different TZ sound board. On that one it also has one of the data lines crossed somewhere. Whenever the dmd changes to a different screen it causes the sound board to trigger the door closing sound and whenever the display shows an animated screen it plays the sound rapid fire.

#27 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

And the culprit is......

The sound board! I removed the ribbon cable from it, turned it back on and as soon as the slot machine animation came up, it was perfect. In fact everything else was spot on, piano, end of ball bonus, match screen, everything.

So, this begs the question then, what two inputs were shorted on yours? Should I just go ahead and remove the board to look for burn spots? Were you able to even fix yours or did you just replace the whole board?

Thanks again. I knew you guys would come through! And Chris, I think that now that there's more than one instance of this problem(even just in this thread), it merits inclusion in the wiki. Lets just hope this is my last such submission.

#28 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Well, I went ahead and pulled the board to look for burn spots and wayward solder. I found nothing out of the ordinary. Although, on the backside, the larger sections of the copper film that make all the connections on the board look like they've kinda bubbled up or something. In other words, they're not uniformly flat. But, there are no splits, cracks, or burned spots.

It's running the L-2 ROMs, apparently, if that means anything to anyone. The game ROMs are P-4.

#29 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Nice work gents.
Miguel...you can test for pins shorted together easily.
Set your DMM to continuity check.
Orient the board so that the 2 by n ribbon cable pins are horizontal.

Half of the pins (an entire row) are connected to ground and to eachother by the board trace.
Black lead on one of the grounded pins.
Drag the red lead over each of the non-grounded pins. Any tone?

Next, black lead on the left-most non-grounded pin.
Drag the red lead over each pin each pin to the right of it.
Move black lead one pin to the right.
Drag the red lead over each remaining pin.
Continue until you've tested for a short between all pins. Any tone?

Once you've found two (or more) pins that are connected, they may be connected at the header itself or through one of the board components. If the latter is the case, a bit of detective work with the schematics awaits you...
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#30 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of....

Looking from top down, ribbon cable pin seats:

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxo
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxox

The ones marked with the o's are shorted together. Looking on the back, it kind of looks like the solder from the inner row has flowed onto the track that the outer pin has that passes between the other two on its way to the interior of the board.

Can this be reflowed? Or since the solder has most likely burned through the green plastic, is it a goner?

#31 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Can you shoot a picture of the area and post it? I want to add this to the PW so a good high quality in focus shot would be excellent.

If we are looking at the pinouts the same way, your diagram indicates that pins 34 and 31 are connected.

Pin 31 is a very important pin as it is the R/W line to/from the sound board.
Pin 34 is unlabeled in the sound board schematics, but carries the FIRQ signal between the MPU, the FlipTronics, the Sound, and the Dot Controller boards.

I could see that being the problem.

Good news! Nope...she's not a goner. It's simple matter of sucking the errant solder from the junction, then reflowing the solder correctly at the pins. You might even be able to simply heat your iron and "drag" the solder back to the correct pins. It will not have eaten into the plastic, which is actually not plastic. It's some kind of fiber board.

We're just about there, I think.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info Pre-DCSSoundBoardPinout.jpg

#32 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

The FIRQ at pin 34 being the problem makes a lot of sense. It is as if communications have "backed up" and that's what's causing the slow-down. Heck, I remember back in the day having to assign IRQ's on the computer so we could use a modem AND a printer! If they both had the same IRQ, they wouldn't work.

I'll try to get a picture of it this afternoon at some point. I'm on my way to a picnic right now I know that green stuff isn't a plastic, but it's easy to describe that way. I don't think I'll have any problem just scraping it back over, but I'll definitely take a picture of it before I do.

#33 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Argh...I remember those days too, when I was doing IBM-PC programming...not fondly!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#34 11 years ago

KLB

kbliznick

Firebird Pinball

Phoenix, AZ

11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

I repaired the sound board causing the slow animations. It was one of the two pins I highlighted (I forget which one). The solder on the pin was overlapping the trace next to it, similar to yours. It appears to me that it probably left the factory this way and may not have exhibited the shorting symptoms until later after.

Pre-DCSSoundBoardPinout.jpg

#35 11 years ago

JWJ

johnwartjr

That Pinball Place

Columbus, IN

12y 77,400 6,479 14

Excellent tech info guys - not much info out there on troubleshooting WPC sound... this will be filed away for later!

#36 11 years ago

MVM

markmon

Inactive member

Hillsboro, OR

13y 98,300 13,010 21 81

Nice. I'll keep this in mind for future issues. I think all your animations were slow not just slit machine. Did it speed everything up?

#37 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Yep, here's mine. It's got that same overflow problem you mention yours had. Methinks I can just get by with scraping away the solder with my iron and all should be well. I'll let you all know the outcome, as soon as I find my soldering iron......wherever it is.

image.jpg image.jpg

#38 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Well, I am pleased to report that with the help of you all, especially kbliznick, I was able to fix my sound board and everything is running spectacularly! I can't thank you all enough. It's the very wealth and breadth of knowledge that I've grown to trust here on Pinside that I'm glad I tapped into for this problem.

All is well and the animations and sounds are running at full speed and I could not be happier! It's funny how it took longer for the soldering iron to warm up than to actually do the repair!

Now on to that lock ramp bounce out....

Thanks again everyone!

#39 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Excellent! Glad to hear it.
It's always nice when someone who has seen and fixed the problem before chimes in. Way to go Kris.

This one goes into the PinWiki later today. Would it be OK with you if I used your photos?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#40 11 years ago

ESA

stangbat

KC Pins

13y 86,900 3,111 19

Thanks for the photos and following through with an update. Great info.

#41 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Posted to PinWiki...
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Slow_Animations
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#42 11 years ago

MIK

Miguel351

Pinside member

Um no, I want to keep all the info to myself! j/k

By all means add it to the wiki! Any way I can help, I'm more than happy to do it! You can use the pics, too if you need. Even the video, if you want! Although, I'd suggest downloading it since I might decide in the near future to take it down.

I couldn't have done it without you guys, anyway. It really made sense when it was mentioned about the IRQ conflict. That's when it clicked.

#43 11 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler