Suffield, CT
Hey guys,
My TZ keeps blowing the F111 fuse that controls the motor for the gumball and is connected to the flashers... has anyone seen this before?
(Topic ID: 285246)
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Quoted from qbass187:Hey guys,
My TZ keeps blowing the F111 fuse that controls the motor for the gumball and is connected to the flashers... has anyone seen this before?
Haven't seen this myself but here is the chain of power. Check connections and may be a shorted BR4 or bad C11
The AC Power originates at connector J102 pins 1,2 and 3,4. It then goes through fuse F111, bridge BR4, capacitor C11, LED5/TP7 (20 volts DC), then to connector J107 pins 5,6 (and J106 and J108).
Try testing BR4 per this link https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#F111_Blows.2C_Testing_BR4_With_Board_Still_Installed
Edit- doesn't say specifically but I think the test of BR4 is carried out with the power OFF
Quoted from emsrph:Haven't seen this myself but here is the chain of power. Check connections and may be a shorted BR4 or bad C11
The AC Power originates at connector J102 pins 1,2 and 3,4. It then goes through fuse F111, bridge BR4, capacitor C11, LED5/TP7 (20 volts DC), then to connector J107 pins 5,6 (and J106 and J108).
Try testing BR4 per this link https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#F111_Blows.2C_Testing_BR4_With_Board_Still_Installed
Edit- doesn't say specifically but I think the test of BR4 is carried out with the power OFF
Awesome! I’ll do that.
Thanks
Quoted from emsrph:Haven't seen this myself but here is the chain of power. Check connections and may be a shorted BR4 or bad C11
The AC Power originates at connector J102 pins 1,2 and 3,4. It then goes through fuse F111, bridge BR4, capacitor C11, LED5/TP7 (20 volts DC), then to connector J107 pins 5,6 (and J106 and J108).
Try testing BR4 per this link https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#F111_Blows.2C_Testing_BR4_With_Board_Still_Installed
Edit- doesn't say specifically but I think the test of BR4 is carried out with the power OFF
Ok, so I tested the pins at J102 and I get no reading on pin3 off either TP.
I tested my CFTBL the same way and got readings off both pins off both TPs.
Does this indicate a bad BR4?
Quoted from qbass187:Ok, so I tested the pins at J102 and I get no reading on pin3 off either TP.
I tested my CFTBL the same way and got readings off both pins off both TPs.
Does this indicate a bad BR4?
You’re not going to get voltage at the test point with the fuse blown.
How are you testing J102? Don’t have the schematic handy but are you for testing AC? One lead on either pins 1 or 2 and other lead on pins 3 or 4?
Edit- Yep, test for AC at J102 as stated above, see attached schematic
1DFD6D6C-AE91-40D4-9E7B-D995E1609C80 (resized).jpegIf you have AC at J102 with power on and BR4 tested good with power off, unplug J106, J107 and J108. Replace fuse. Turn on and if fuse blows it’s a problem on the driver board. Otherwise a short on the playfield
Quoted from emsrph:You’re not going to get voltage at the test point with the fuse blown.
How are you testing J102? Don’t have the schematic handy but are you for testing AC? One lead on either pins 1 or 2 and other lead on pins 3 or 4?
Edit- Yep, test for AC at J102 as stated above, see attached schematic [quoted image]
I’m testing like pinwiki demonstrated in the article you linked, with power off.
Diode setting: Red to lower TP to pin1 & pin2
Black to upper TP to pin1 & pin2
Bad fuse in F111
Quoted from qbass187:I’m testing like pinwiki demonstrated in the article you linked, with power off.
Diode setting: Red to lower TP to pin1 & pin2
Black to upper TP to pin1 & pin2
Bad fuse in F111
Sorry, I misunderstood. Thought you were measuring AC from the transformer.
OK about BR4 test. Think you meant pin 1 and pin 3 in your last description of the test? Looks like the bridge is bad. No reading on half the bridge means it is toast. Others can confirm.
Good idea to double check your method with other pin of the same design!
Quoted from qbass187:Bad fuse in F111
In looking at the actual schematic, a bad fuse in F111 will prevent accurately testing BR4 at J102. The Pinwiki probably needs to elaborate this.
With power off, temporarily put a good fuse in F111.
Paging ChrisHibler
Melbourne
Quoted from emsrph:In looking at the actual schematic, a bad fuse in F111 will prevent accurately testing BR4 at J102. The Pinwiki probably needs to elaborate this.
With power off, temporarily put a good fuse in F111.
[quoted image]
Nicely spotted - yes that'd be why the op got no reading from pin 3 on either test (unless they threw a new fuse in prior to testing, in which case BR4 is dead)
Quoted from Manny65:Nicely spotted - yes that'd be why the op got no reading from pin 3 on either test (unless they threw a new fuse in prior to testing, in which case BR4 is dead)
Always takes me several tries to fix something. That’s why for testing I have circuit breakers attached to spent fuses, lol
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/making-and-using-a-fuse-breaker#post-1299695
Quoted from emsrph:In looking at the actual schematic, a bad fuse in F111 will prevent accurately testing BR4 at J102. The Pinwiki probably needs to elaborate this.
Here is the original procedure including the "check F111"
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-rose-flashers-18-20#post-2604414
Quoted from zaza:Here is the original procedure including the "check F111"
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-rose-flashers-18-20#post-2604414
Always learn from your posts and your pictures/videos are great. Thx zaza
Quoted from zaza:Here is the original procedure including the "check F111"
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-rose-flashers-18-20#post-2604414
Thanks @zaza. I really enjoy and learn from your posts - such a wealth of knowledge and clearly explained.
Quoted from emsrph:Always takes me several tries to fix something. That’s why for testing I have circuit breakers attached to spent fuses, lol
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/making-and-using-a-fuse-breaker#post-1299695
Haha yes I bought a bunch of circuit breakers for the same reason ... fortunately I haven't had to use them much 
Glad to help you with these pictures. I find it also very easy to localize the culprit this way. Especially on location it is quickly found without taking the board out.
Quoted from qbass187:Starting to think it’s not BR4?
Agreed, the numbers look normal.
When J106 and J107 are unplugged from the PowerDriverBoard and the fuse doesn't blow when machine is started up, the short/surge must be found somewhere in harness, playfield or drive transistors on the powerdriver.
Quoted from qbass187:So I retested with a good fuse in F111 and I also colored my readings with my CFTBL.
Cftbl
R/gnd- P1 .521. P3 .534
B/tp7 - P1 .538. P3 .534
TZ
R/gnd- P1 .547. P3 .532
B/tp7 - P1 .535. P3 .539
Starting to think it’s not BR4?
Unplug J106, J107 and J108 and see if it blows the fuse
Quoted from emsrph:If you have AC at J102 with power on and BR4 tested good with power off, unplug J106, J107 and J108. Replace fuse. Turn on and if fuse blows it’s a problem on the driver board. Otherwise a short on the playfield
Quoted from zaza:Agreed, the numbers look normal.
When J106 and J107 are unplugged from the PowerDriverBoard and the fuse doesn't blow when machine is started up, the short/surge must be found somewhere in harness, playfield or drive transistors on the powerdriver.
Haha I type to slow
Quoted from zaza:Agreed, the numbers look normal.
When J106 and J107 are unplugged from the PowerDriverBoard and the fuse doesn't blow when machine is started up, the short/surge must be found somewhere in harness, playfield or drive transistors on the powerdriver.
I’ll unplug J106 & J107 and see what happens.
I’m wondering if it’s a bad led flasher bulb. The red one on the back right ramp was melted.
Quoted from qbass187:The red one on the back right ramp was melted.
Could be a problem with the 8-driver as well. Check Ribboncable to 8-drive and transistor (Q9 on 8-drive)
Quoted from zaza:I'll leave you now, sleeping time in Europe
Thanks for all your help.
The fuse stays intact with J107 unplugged but immediately blows with it plugged in.
Quoted from qbass187:The fuse stays intact with J107 unplugged but immediately blows with it plugged in.
Quoted from qbass187:I’m wondering if it’s a bad led flasher bulb. The red one on the back right ramp was melted.
The manual shows the back right ramp flasher as #41 which connects to J3 on the 8 driver PCB - check which pin on J3 has the Green/White wire as the Flasher Wiring page says it's J3-5 but the 8 driver page say J3-2. Actually zaza indicated to check Q9 on the 8 driver PCB which connects to J3-2 so guessing that's it but double check.
Q9 is a TIP102 - this is how you test it https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Transistor_.22Quick_Check.22
TZ Flasher (resized).JPGTZ Flasher1 (resized).JPGTZ Flasher2 (resized).JPGQuoted from emsrph:In looking at the actual schematic, a bad fuse in F111 will prevent accurately testing BR4 at J102. The Pinwiki probably needs to elaborate this.
With power off, temporarily put a good fuse in F111.
Paging chrishibler
emsrph Thanks for the page. I've fixed the PinWiki section.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info
Quoted from Manny65:The manual shows the back right ramp flasher as #41 which connects to J3 on the 8 driver PCB - check which pin on J3 has the Green/White wire as the Flasher Wiring page says it's J3-5 but the 8 driver page say J3-2. Actually zaza indicated to check Q9 on the 8 driver PCB which connects to J3-2 so guessing that's it but double check.
Q9 is a TIP102 - this is how you test it https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Transistor_.22Quick_Check.22
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Tested Q9 on the 8 drive board and it tested good.
Any suggestions on where I should look next? It would seem the issue is somewhere between J107 & J3. I believe that’s mostly flashers?
Quoted from qbass187:Tested Q9 on the 8 drive board and it tested good.
Any suggestions on where I should look next? It would seem the issue is somewhere between J107 & J3. I believe that’s mostly flashers?
To rule out the flasher line I'd remove the bulbs and test for a short by making sure there is no continuity between the drive and return wires. Otherwise smarter peeps will need to help dive deeper.
Quoted from emsrph:To rule out the flasher line I'd remove the bulbs and test for a short by making sure there is no continuity between the drive and return wires. Otherwise smarter peeps will need to help dive deeper.
Thanks for your help. I’lll give that a shot
UPDATE: I removed all the LED flashers on that line and tested continuity with no issues. I decided to run gumball test without reinstalling them. So far it’s been running with no failures for 20 mins. So it seems like a case of a bad LED flasher bulb causing the blown fuse.
Are there good/reliable LED flasher bulbs out there? I’ve about this happening time and again from some cheaper bulbs and finding the one that was melted is making me nervous.
Quoted from qbass187:UPDATE: I removed all the LED flashers on that line and tested continuity with no issues. I decided to run gumball test without reinstalling them. So far it’s been running with no failures for 20 mins. So it seems like a case of a bad LED flasher bulb causing the blown fuse.
Are there good/reliable LED flasher bulbs out there? I’ve about this happening time and again from some cheaper bulbs and finding the one that was melted is making me nervous.
Glad it seems to be up and running.
I’m all for LED but no thank you on the flashers. I stick to incandescent there to avoid retina burns.
Quoted from qbass187:UPDATE: I removed all the LED flashers on that line and tested continuity with no issues. I decided to run gumball test without reinstalling them. So far it’s been running with no failures for 20 mins. So it seems like a case of a bad LED flasher bulb causing the blown fuse.
Are there good/reliable LED flasher bulbs out there? I’ve about this happening time and again from some cheaper bulbs and finding the one that was melted is making me nervous.
Do you have some old incandescent flashers that you could throw in those connections just to double check? This would help confirm that it was a bad LED flasher
Quoted from Manny65:Do you have some old incandescent flashers that you could throw in those connections just to double check? This would help confirm that it was a bad LED flasher
I don’t. I gotta order some
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