(Topic ID: 182422)

TZ clock won't go in reverse- SOLVED!

By alveolus

7 years ago


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  • Latest reply 3 years ago by altan
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There are 74 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 7 years ago

In clock test, all clock Optos register correctly. The clock only moves in fast forward regardless of the state of the test(stopped, reverse, slow, etc). In solenoid test, forward works but nothing happens in reverse test. I already replaced the motor control board with the Homepin version. Using the test buttons on this board, the clock moves forward and reverse ok. I verified continuity of the drive line (blue/white) from the 8 driver board to the motor control board. Voltages on the 8 driver board read 11.91 and 4.94, so a bit low. I swapped the 8 driver board with one from my STTNG but same issue. Now I'm stumped. Could this be a CPU or ribbon cable issue?

Thanks,
Shawn

#2 7 years ago

What does it do when you cycle power to the game? IIRC, all original, it's supposed to fast forward clockwise to a few minutes past 12:00, then pulse counter-clockwise twice back to 12:00.

#3 7 years ago

It will fast forward briefly and then stop. It doesn't always get to noon before stopping.

#4 7 years ago

Try to re-seat the ribbon between the CPU and the 8 driver board, and the one between the CPU and the driver board.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from romain:

Try to re-seat the ribbon between the CPU and the 8 driver board, and the one between the CPU and the driver board.

I re-seated the ribbon cable, but no change in behavior.

#6 7 years ago

Check that the drive wires into the motor control board are making a good connection with the header socket. Those are IDC, and likely one has just come loose and isn't making a solid connection any more, so the 'reverse' signal isn't getting to the motor control board. (Or, on the plug on the 8-driver side.)

#7 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Check that the drive wires into the motor control board are making a good connection with the header socket. Those are IDC, and likely one has just come loose and isn't making a solid connection any more, so the 'reverse' signal isn't getting to the motor control board. (Or, on the plug on the 8-driver side.)

I've verified continuity from the driver board to the motor control board

#8 7 years ago

Clock reverse is solenoid 42 (J1-2, Blue-White on the motor board, J3-2 on the 8 driver board).
If schematics are correct, it is controlled by transistor Q9 (TIP102) on the 8 driver board (another sheet suggests Q10...).

A trick I use consists of using a piece of wire and shorting the metal tab of the transistor to ground. This will activate the output and the clock should go reverse. If it does, then the transistor could be shot, or the ribbon cable making bad contact.

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from romain:

Clock reverse is solenoid 42 (J1-2, Blue-White on the motor board, J3-2 on the 8 driver board).
If schematics are correct, it is controlled by transistor Q9 (TIP102) on the 8 driver board (another sheet suggests Q10...).
A trick I use consists of using a piece of wire and shorting the metal tab of the transistor to ground. This will activate the output and the clock should go reverse. If it does, then the transistor could be shot, or the ribbon cable making bad contact.

Thanks. My recollection is grounding the transistor tab on Q10 made no difference. I'm not sure about Q9. I will check when I get home

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

I've verified continuity from the driver board to the motor control board

Yeah, apologies - to me that means you checked the wire, not the plug/sockets. Hence, why I suggested that.

#11 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Yeah, apologies - to me that means you checked the wire, not the plug/sockets. Hence, why I suggested that.

I understand. I should have specified that I checked continuity between the non-banded side of D10 on the 8 driver board to the banded side of D2 on the motor control board thus verifying continuity through both connectors.

Granted, I only did this test for reverse drive line(blue/white). I probably should do it for the rest of the wires in those two connectors to be thorough.

#12 7 years ago

Also, during clock test, the only way I can get the clock to stop is by disconnecting J5 from the 8 driver board which carries the forward drive line(violet/white)

I also tried manually grounding Q10 which is the reverse drive transistor, but this had no effect whether J5 was connected or not.

So, if I'm thinking correctly, it behaves as if forward is shorted on and reverse is broken/open.

If anyone has fresh ideas, I would love to hear them, my brain is starting to get fried trying to sort this all out.

#13 7 years ago

(my reply disappeared when I answered... frustrating)

In short: the 8 driver board has jumpers, check if they are in the same position between TZ and STTNG. Does STTNG work fine?
Can you check the voltages on the motor control board on J1?

#14 7 years ago
Quoted from romain:

(my reply disappeared when I answered... frustrating)
In short: the 8 driver board has jumpers, check if they are in the same position between TZ and STTNG. Does STTNG work fine?
Can you check the voltages on the motor control board on J1?

Thanks.
Boards look the same to me. The board in next gen works as far as I can tell but I'll look in the manual to see what q10 drives and make sure.

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#15 7 years ago

Can you check the voltages on the motor control board on J1?
Try grounding every transistor on the 8 driver board to see if any of them is controlling the reverse.
You can try swapping the ribbon cable with STTNG.

#16 7 years ago

Hold up -
Question -

Quoted from alveolus:

Also, during clock test, the only way I can get the clock to stop is by disconnecting J5 from the 8 driver board which carries the forward drive line(violet/white)

Can you give more info on this?
Are you saying that even with the display saying 'Clock Stopped', it's running forward?
And the clock is NOT running forward when you exit out of Clock Test into the main Test Menu?

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from romain:

Can you check the voltages on the motor control board on J1?
Try grounding every transistor on the 8 driver board to see if any of them is controlling the reverse.
You can try swapping the ribbon cable with STTNG.

Q10 on Next Gen operates the R ramp flasher and works. Q11 is not used as a flasher/solenoid drive.

I grounded every transistor, but no reverse. All the flashers lit except Q16 right upper flipper. I will need to check that bulb.

Motor board voltages are 14.23 on the connector and 13.46 and 5.01 on the test points.

Swapping the ribbon cable had no effect.

Thanks for your suggestions.

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Hold up -
Question -

Can you give more info on this?
Are you saying that even with the display saying 'Clock Stopped', it's running forward?
And the clock is NOT running forward when you exit out of Clock Test into the main Test Menu?

Correct. In clock test it is moving fast forward regardless of which test is running(stopped, reverse, slow,etc)

The clock stops when you exit clock test.

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Correct. In clock test it is moving fast forward regardless of which test is running(stopped, reverse, slow,etc)
The clock stops when you exit clock test.

Wow. That's... messed up.
If you logic probe the two driving wires (going into the motor control board, J1.1 and J1.2), do they follow what is expected? (i.e. High when off, Low or Pulsing Low when that direction is driven)?

#20 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Wow. That's... messed up.
If you logic probe the two driving wires (going into the motor control board, J1.1 and J1.2), do they follow what is expected? (i.e. High when off, Low or Pulsing Low when that direction is driven)?

I was afraid a logic probe was going to come into play at some point

I will check when I get home, but will the voltages/current involved work with a logic probe? (Novice question)

#21 7 years ago

While I'm thinking about it, Can someone explain the CPU handling of the clock? For instance, when I enter clock test does it activate forward and reverse drives for "clock stopped" then deactivate the reverse drive for "clock forward" and vice versa?

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

I was afraid a logic probe was going to come into play at some point
I will check when I get home, but will the voltages/current involved work with a logic probe? (Novice question)

Yeah - the plug at the motor control board doesn't even have to be plugged in (better if it's not, actually..). Essentially, the ground lead of the probe should go on something grounded (side rail, etc) and then check the two lines.. It will just report whether the line is high (driver off) or low (driver on).

For the clock, there are two drives, Forward and Reverse. If both drives are off (voltage high), motor will not run. If both drives are on (voltage low), motor will not run. If one is high, then the motor will run in that direction.
Normally, unless the game is wanting the clock to run, both drives should be off. The CPU controls the speed of the clock by pulsing the drives in the direction it wants the clock to run.

In test mode, the clock should NOT be running, until you go into Clock Test mode, AND select any test other than 'Clock Stopped'.
Direction Fast - Longer pulses.
Direction Slow - Shorter pulses.
It's impossible to test (in test mode, at least) the solid on running speed, which is the 'clock reset' speed after you drain or when exiting test mode or turning on the game. So if you're getting THAT fast motion, then something else is up.

You know, thinking about it - go into Flasher Test, and verify that each flasher flashes the correct flashers - ESPECIALLY the 'Gumball Machine High', '.. Mid', and '.. Low'. (#'s 38, 39, 40). I'm wondering if they're correct.

#23 7 years ago

I'm wondering if the ribbon cable is off a pin on the MPU side, or you have something mixing signals. (i.e. Going into clock test mode activates the 9thn Switch column, which is solenoid #44, Q1/Q12 on the driver board. If it's somehow off by one, it would activate Q11, which is one of the drives. But, in this case, the optos on the clock wouldn't work.

#24 7 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

I grounded every transistor, but no reverse.

Was the clock moving fast forward when you tried that?

I'm wondering what is actually happening just like you. The CPU doesn't have a way of enabling or disabling the clock. Coyote just answered this very clearly

The way it works is the following: each motor direction is controlled by a solenoid output: J3-3 SOL6 (Q10) and J5-4 SOL10 (Q11) on the 8 driver board. The chip doing the forward/reverse is the L6803 on the motor board. This chip is an H-bridge, and it has 2 inputs: in1 and in2. The inputs need to be in the opposite state for the motor to do something; eg: in1 high and in2 low: motor goes forward, and in1 low and in2 high: motor goes reverse.
What happens when they both have the same state (in1=in2) is that the motor stops.

Your problem may very well be that the forward is actually misbehaving (always on), then any attempt to go "reverse" will stop the clock!
Check the voltage on the violet-white wire (J1-1).

#25 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Yeah - the plug at the motor control board doesn't even have to be plugged in (better if it's not, actually..). Essentially, the ground lead of the probe should go on something grounded (side rail, etc) and then check the two lines.. It will just report whether the line is high (driver off) or low (driver on).
For the clock, there are two drives, Forward and Reverse. If both drives are off (voltage high), motor will not run. If both drives are on (voltage low), motor will not run. If one is high, then the motor will run in that direction.
Normally, unless the game is wanting the clock to run, both drives should be off. The CPU controls the speed of the clock by pulsing the drives in the direction it wants the clock to run.
In test mode, the clock should NOT be running, until you go into Clock Test mode, AND select any test other than 'Clock Stopped'.
Direction Fast - Longer pulses.
Direction Slow - Shorter pulses.
It's impossible to test (in test mode, at least) the solid on running speed, which is the 'clock reset' speed after you drain or when exiting test mode or turning on the game. So if you're getting THAT fast motion, then something else is up.
You know, thinking about it - go into Flasher Test, and verify that each flasher flashes the correct flashers - ESPECIALLY the 'Gumball Machine High', '.. Mid', and '.. Low'. (#'s 38, 39, 40). I'm wondering if they're correct.

I did get all 3 gum ball flashers to flash by grounding the transistors, though I didn't check to see if they were assigned correctly.

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#26 7 years ago
Quoted from romain:

Was the clock moving fast forward when you tried that?
I'm wondering what is actually happening just like you. The CPU doesn't have a way of enabling or disabling the clock. Coyote just answered this very clearly
The way it works is the following: each motor direction is controlled by a solenoid output: J3-3 SOL6 (Q10) and J5-4 SOL10 (Q11) on the 8 driver board. The chip doing the forward/reverse is the L6803 on the motor board. This chip is an H-bridge, and it has 2 inputs: in1 and in2. The inputs need to be in the opposite state for the motor to do something; eg: in1 high and in2 low: motor goes forward, and in1 low and in2 high: motor goes reverse.
What happens when they both have the same state (in1=in2) is that the motor stops.
Your problem may very well be that the forward is actually misbehaving (always on), then any attempt to go "reverse" will stop the clock!
Check the voltage on the violet-white wire (J1-1).

I'm almost certain that I tried grounding Q11 both in clock test and out of test. Either way it has no effect. Nothing stops the clock in clock test except disconnecting the forward drive connector on the 8 driver board.

I will check the violet/white voltage when I get home.

#27 7 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

I did get all 3 gum ball flashers to flash by grounding the transistors, though I didn't check to see if they were assigned correctly.

Check in the test mode, not by manually activating them. (We want to see if the software's addressing is off by one.. Which I highly doubt would be the issue, but.. have to rule it out!)

#28 7 years ago

Something is messed-up on the forward line, that's why we can't figure out what's wrong on the reverse, the problem isn't here

#29 7 years ago

J1-1 on motor control board(violet/white) is 13v when idle. J1-2 is .5v. During clock test, both voltages stay low regardless of which speed/direction I select.

#30 7 years ago

Okay - there you go. It sounds like you have a bad TIP stuck on.

But! Since you're replaced the board, and the problem followed it, it means a few things:
(1) The wire in J1-2 (Blue/White?) is shorted to ground somewhere. (Exposed insulation, pinched, etc.)
(2) The TIP is bad - on both boards?
(3) The Driver board is mistakenly thinking it's being told to activate that output.

Next then, take the logic probe, and check the signals coming out of U1 on the driver board. Pin #17 and #18. With the game in any operator menu (i.e. flashing T.1 Switch Test).. Both pins should be low.

#31 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Check in the test mode, not by manually activating them. (We want to see if the software's addressing is off by one.. Which I highly doubt would be the issue, but.. have to rule it out!)

Flashers flash appropriately in test.

I busted out the logic probe. In attract mode there was no activity on the probe. In clock test both DIR/1 and DIR/2 go low and stay low regardless of what speed and direction I'm testing. I see no pulses at any time.

Very confusing. If my 5v is low could that cause all of this wacky behavior?

#32 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Okay - there you go. It sounds like you have a bad TIP stuck on.
But! Since you're replaced the board, and the problem followed it, it means a few things:
(1) The wire in J1-2 (Blue/White?) is shorted to ground somewhere. (Exposed insulation, pinched, etc.)
(2) The TIP is bad - on both boards?
(3) The Driver board is mistakenly thinking it's being told to activate that output.
Next then, take the logic probe, and check the signals coming out of U1 on the driver board. Pin #17 and #18. With the game in any operator menu (i.e. flashing T.1 Switch Test).. Both pins should be low.

Q10 works normally on Next Gen
No short to ground on blue/white

Again, if my 5v is only 4.91, can I trust my logic probe?

#33 7 years ago

I tested U1 on the driver board. Both pins 17 & 18 were high and pulsing while in test menu. They remained in that state throughout the clock test, regardless if it was set to forward, reverse, etc.

#34 7 years ago

Htm, slow down..

If J1-2 is stuck low, then Q11 is the trouble maker, not Q10.

#35 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Htm, slow down..
If J1-2 is stuck low, then Q11 is the trouble maker, not Q10.

OK. So how do I test it?

#36 7 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

OK. So how do I test it?

Well, you kind of already did...
If J1-2 is stuck low, and nothing in STTNG uses that output (so no way for another test to negate this by having it operate as expected) then it's very likely that transistor is shot..

#37 7 years ago

2 boards with the same blown transistor triggers my skeptic tendencies. I would like to test it before I replace it.

I have access to a known working TZ. I can swap the board over and see if it reproduces the behavior in that machine.

#38 7 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

2 boards with the same blown transistor triggers my skeptic tendencies. I would like to test it before I replace it.
I have access to a known working TZ. I can swap the board over and see if it reproduces the behavior in that machine.

True, but stranger things have happened.
Better yet, take the MPU out of ST:TNG, swap ROMs, and try it in TZ. See what happens.
Edit: This will rule out a bad MPU. (However, this is already highly unlikely, as a stuck data bit on the MPU would cause hosts or other issues.)

#39 7 years ago

Additionally, it could still be this:

Quoted from Coyote:

(1) The wire in J1-2 (Blue/White?) is shorted to ground somewhere. (Exposed insulation, pinched, etc.)

Assuming you checked for that, however..

#40 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Additionally, it could still be this:

Assuming you checked for that, however..

I did. No short.

#41 7 years ago

Update:
It turns out I was burned by 2 bad boards, but it wasn't the 8 driver boards.
Instead it would appear that my brand new Homepin motor interface board is also bad.

I swapped in my 8 driver board into the TZ at CJs and it worked fine. Then I swapped the Homepin board in and the identical problem occurred.

Homepin Do you think This is an easy fix or do I need to get a replacement?

#42 7 years ago

I should have done this much earlier, but I re-installed the original motor control board back in the machine and of course it produced a different clock error. I had just forgotten what the initial error was and assumed when I installed the Homepin board that it was the same issue and thus the problem must lie elsewhere(sigh...)

Live and learn.

Still hoping to hear from someone who can tell me if this is a simple repair or if I'll need another replacement.

#43 7 years ago

Misleading first post, but glad the issue was sorted out!
If you bought your board recently, just get in contact with the seller and return it for replacement, unless it's a straightfoward issue (solder joint or sth).

Is the clock 100% working now? "Quit playing with the clock!" as Rudy would say

#44 7 years ago

Yeah, what's the 'different clock error'?

#45 7 years ago
Quoted from romain:

Misleading first post, but glad the issue was sorted out!
If you bought your board recently, just get in contact with the seller and return it for replacement, unless it's a straightfoward issue (solder joint or sth).
Is the clock 100% working now? "Quit playing with the clock!" as Rudy would say

I don't see anything misleading other than perhaps an implied assumption that a brand new replacement board worked.

My clock obviously doesn't work with a bad motor control board. I bought it from Australia so if it is an easy fix it would save a bunch of waiting on shipping.

#46 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Yeah, what's the 'different clock error'?

With the original motor board installed, the clock will operate in reverse in test but won't go forward at all.

#47 7 years ago

AH! Okay.. Huh.

#48 7 years ago
Quoted from alveolus:

Update:
It turns out I was burned by 2 bad boards, but it wasn't the 8 driver boards.
Instead it would appear that my brand new Homepin motor interface board is also bad.
I swapped in my 8 driver board into the TZ at CJs and it worked fine. Then I swapped the Homepin board in and the identical problem occurred.
homepin Do you think This is an easy fix or do I need to get a replacement?

Doesn´t the homepin baord have 2 test switches, where you can test the directions???

#49 7 years ago
Quoted from german-pinball:

Doesn´t the homepin baord have 2 test switches, where you can test the directions???

It does, and they work. That is a big reason I initially dismissed the board as a potential problem.

#50 7 years ago

Means, when you press first button, motor turn CW and if you press the other button motor turns CCW, correct??

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