(Topic ID: 168639)

TZ Check Fuse 114/115 with Rottendog Boards

By djsolzs

5 years ago


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  • 61 posts
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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by djsolzs
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RD 18V cap.jpg
twelve.jpg
DMM-902 134.jpg
J101.jpg
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There are 61 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 5 years ago

I want to thank everyone in advance for any help! I also want to recognize that there are several very good posts pertaining to this issue and that I have read the pinwiki here:

http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Check_fuses_F114_and_F115_message

Picked up this machine about a month ago and when I got it home it had switch matrix short message. The machine has a Rottendog Power Driver board in it when I picked it up. I tracked the issue down to the MPU/CPU board and ended up replacing that with a Rottendog as well. Plan is to send original board for repair out but the seller gave me some extra $$$ because of the issue so it paid for most of the rottendog board (cpu).

Everything was playing great until last night when in the middle of a game all flippers activated then kind of shut off and the game went in to a weird state. I promptly shut it off... and in turning back on was greeted with the Check Fuse f115 f114 message.

A lot of the posts point directly to issues either on the Driver Board or the CPU - both which have been replaced with Rottendog board in my machines and is why I am posting this. Any insight of issues with these boards? Both of them are new within the past couple months - the cpu is less than 3 weeks old.

What I know:

1. New Rottendog CPU and Driver Board Installed

2. Fuses 114 and 115 are not blown and test fine

3. LED6 is lit tests fine

4. LED1 is NOT lit - voltage shows 0 vdc instead of 12v

5. LED 8 tests fine

Seems the start of my research points to checking the diodes as well as C2 and 7812.

My hesitation/question is - where do I go since both of the boards are new? Continue down the same testing path as documented? Are there common failure components for rottendog boards? I read there were some bad ones out there but couldn't find details? Thanks

#2 5 years ago

Can you disconnect J114 (computer won't start now) and measure 12V TP3 (? rottendog) again.
Check fuse rating F115 - should be 3/4 Amp. In case it is overfused and something is wrong in the 12Volt circuit, it can pull down the 12V until regulator shuts off.

#3 5 years ago

Thanks I will try that and report back.

Im not sure this matters but I also removed J205, J207, J209 from the CPU and powered it on just to see. No change with this - this was part of the troubleshooting I did for the switch matrix short error.

#4 5 years ago

There are circumstances that it would matter. In case the columndriver U20 on CPU-board has blown, it won't help so much.
When J114 is disconnected, only the powerdriverboard itself uses some mA from the 12Vreg.

#5 5 years ago

Well I tried powering it on and the ball in trough kicked out then it died. 8 amp fuse blew by the transformer.

I had coin door closed may have been a stupid mistake. Replaced with new 8 amp and plugged j114 back in same issue no +12. Kinda nervous to remove j114 again and power it on... I'm wondering if it was the coin door though?

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

ball in trough kicked out then it died

When J114 is unplugged, there shouldn't be any action from coils because the computer is down.
This could mean that the logic on the powerdriverboard has failed or a transistor is shorted.

Quoted from djsolzs:

Kinda nervous to remove j114 again and power it on... I'm wondering if it was the coin door though?

Has this TZone a powerswitch in the coindoor ?

You could do the same test but without 20V + 50V supply. Unplug J102 too

#7 5 years ago

I pulled J210 on the CPU while I was waiting (thanks for the super fast reply!) and powered it back up. No led light on +12 led and the voltages seemed to be jumping around and steadily increasing so I powered it off.

So unplug j114 and j102 and power it on?

No power switch in the door I just thought I read it can cause problems if the door was closed when testing? I am probably way off base here... It is a reimport converted back from 220v or whatever they use over seas.

But it blew that 8 amp fuse immediately while activating those coils briefly when powered on with j114 disconnected.

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

So unplug j114 and j102 and power it on?

Yeah, that is the safest way for now.
If TP3 is steady 12.0 Volt this way, it is probably the ULN2803 (U20)on the CPU-board having a short.

#9 5 years ago

With j114 and j102 unplugged 12vp was 12, 5v was 5, 50v was nothing, 12vd was nothing no led lit, 18v was 12v, 20v was nothing

#10 5 years ago

With this plugging it should be like this:
TP1 12Vunreg = 14-15 Volt
TP2 5Vdig = 5.0 Volt
TP3 12Vreg = 12.0 Volt
(TP4 ZC = zero crossing: freq. = 100/120 Hz europe/ USA)
TP5 GND = ground
TP6 50V = 0 Volt (J102=not connected)
TP7 20V = 0 Volt (J102=not connected)
TP8 18V = 17-19 Volt

If your 18V testpoint is only 12Volt, something is wrong with capacitor or rectifier BR.1 and 12Vd cannot be made by regulator Q2

#11 5 years ago

Ok I'll test again to double check. Thanks again for the help. I wonder if I should give rottendog a call although swapping a cap is no problem.

Does this rule out the cpu?

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Does this rule out the cpu?

Can only tell when you have a working 12Volt

a way to test BR.1:
409062b.gif

#13 5 years ago

In diode test numbered based on your image :

1 - 609
2 - 609
3 - 611
4 - 623

Also fuse f114 has 8 amp fuse in it and f115 has 1/2 amp fuse in it

#14 5 years ago

Tp1 11v
Tp2 5v
Tp6 0
Tp3 0
Tp8 12v
Tp7 0

Quoted from zaza:

With this plugging it should be like this:
TP1 12Vunreg = 14-15 Volt
TP2 5Vdig = 5.0 Volt
TP3 12Vreg = 12.0 Volt
(TP4 ZC = zero crossing: freq. = 100/120 Hz europe/ USA)
TP5 GND = ground
TP6 50V = 0 Volt (J102=not connected)
TP7 20V = 0 Volt (J102=not connected)
TP8 18V = 17-19 Volt
If your 18V testpoint is only 12Volt, something is wrong with capacitor or rectifier BR.1 and 12Vd cannot be made by regulator Q2

#15 5 years ago

I'm starting to think that the transformer is low on power.

Is it correct configured ?
Thermistor (NTC) failing ?
Mains Supply ok ?

Check ac voltages on J101:
J101.jpg

#16 5 years ago

As far as I know it is configured correctly. Only had the machine about a month now and havent had any issues outside the CPU switch matrix short issue. Replacing the CPU with rottendog *seemed* to fix this issue. Odd how I lost that voltage so suddenly while playing a game.

Thermistor (NTC) failing ? - I guess I would have to take the voltage testing all the way back. Never tested for this before.

Mains Supply ok ? - Coming from the wall or out of the transformer?

For the test - black lead on ground and red lead on pin 1 and 2 should show 9vac? - Im not sure how to read the blue lines in the picture since they are split - does this mean the rest of the pins 4 - 7 should read 13.3?

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Mains Supply ok ? - Coming from the wall or out of the transformer?

from wall

Set Dig.Multimeter into 'Vac'

DMM-902 134.jpg

#18 5 years ago

OK so when powered on with J101 disconnected I should see the following:

Black lead on pin1 red lead pin2 = 9 vac

Black lead on pin4 red lead on pin7 = 13.3 vac

Just want to get this right so I dont mess anything up

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

J101 disconnected

No, not exactly,

you want to know the voltage on the wires coming from transformer.
You can disconnect J101, but still have to measure the IDC connector on the wires, not on the pins of the powerdriver.
The easiest way is keep J101 plugged in so it is steady in place.

#20 5 years ago

Ha of course I wouldnt get anything without that plugged in! Glad I asked... ooops!

Thanks again! Will report back after work

#21 5 years ago

I got 8.5 vac and 11 vac

Edit: Switched outlet to different outlet from wall

Getting 9.65 and 12.54 (on J101)

Plugged everything back in (except J114 and J102)

TP1 - 13

TP2 - 5

TP6 - 0

TP3 - 0

TP8 - 13

TP7 - 0

Replaced fuses at f114 and f115 as well

D1 Banded side = 11.4vdc

D2 Banded side = 10.7vdc

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Getting 9.65 and 12.54 (on J101)

That is much better.

Now, the 12.54Vac on J101 is rectified by bridge BR1 and then smoothed by capacitors C7+C6.
There it should at least be 17Vdc here on TP8. In post#13 you measured the bridge and it seemed ok.

So, something wrong with the capacitors, or lamp matrix has shorted transistors and draining a lot of power somehow.
Disconnect all lamp-matrix connectors (J133 - J138) and measure again.

#23 5 years ago

There was nothing to remove at j133 but I unplugged everything between 133 and 138.

I checked quickly before I left for work but tp8 is now 17.54 vdc

Still 0 at tp3

Thanks

#24 5 years ago

I just had this issue on my Addams Family and had a thread on it a couple weeks ago. With the new boards it sounds like something has grounded out and caused the issue. If you don't fix what originally caused the problem, no amount of board work will fix it. For me, a wire had come off a flipper coil lug and touched another switch, burning out that switch matrix. Once I repaired the wire, changed out U20, a resistor, and a fuse I was good to go.

#25 5 years ago

Thanks good to know - I am pretty sure u20 was the issue on my original CPU. Hopefully I didnt burn it up on the new rottendog one.

I agree and was thinking the same - if I dont fix the cause it will happen again. The previous owner swapped out the upper right flipper coil and explained that we has having a hard time getting the solder to stick when replacing and indicated there were reset issues (which never happened to me) I did however check this connection and it at still looked good.

What were your troubleshooting steps to find the wire that was the issue? Visual inspection or were you able to check continuity on the plugs and trace it back?

In thinking back I had just added a light mod and clipped it on to one of the flashers with alligator clips just before this all happened. i did get several games in over several days after installing. I promptly removed this after the issues started - not sure if this could cause this or not.

I have some general knowledge but certainly am not well versed in troubleshooting these types of issues.

Ill be happy once I have the 12v back and can start looking for the short.

#26 5 years ago

I wish I could say I had system for checking it out. But I just did a visual inspection based on prior experience. I knew something had caused it and looked through the row of switches that were out (the game actually told me where the switch errors were and that gave me a starting point). For me the bookcase optos weren't working and a few other switches on the right side were out. It ended up being the upper flipper connection shooting 50volts into the swamp switch and burning out that row. And, I had to walk away for a bit and look again to find it, even though it was right in front of me.

It's overwhelming if you look at the whole thing, but if you can break it down logically to establish a starting point it may help.

#27 5 years ago

...and I did have help finding the issue with U20 after I fixed the flipper coil.

#28 5 years ago

Prior to swapping in the new rottendog CPU I had shorted rows I think 3 - 8 reporting short to ground. Non of the switches on the mini playfield or optos were working. Magnets werent working either.

I assumed U20 was the issue after using a logic probe on the connector on cpu as I was not getting pulse on couple of the pins. when I put the new CPU everything worked great no credit dot... then I played maybe 25 games until I ran in to this problem.

Zaza my man - where do we go next?

#29 5 years ago

If you never found what had originally shorted these rows, it sounds like whatever it was got you again. U20 is likely the result of the short. Once you find it and repair U20 I would think you'd be good to go. It could just be a wire that is intermittently grounding out and that's why you were able to get some games in before it happened again. You may have to trace all of the wires in that row and inspect everything.

#30 5 years ago

Yes except last time the game was playable even with the shorted columns (I said rows above but they were columns) and I was able to go in to test mode and troubleshoot (which pointed to u20).

This time I am not getting the 12v on the power driver board with CPU disconnected. Removing J133 - 138 allowed my 18v which was 12vdc at TP8 to get back up to 17.5 vdc at TP8

From the explanation so far I will need to square away 12v before I can even tell if I have a problem with U20 again.

Quoted from adii:

If you never found what had originally shorted these rows, it sounds like whatever it was got you again. U20 is likely the result of the short. Once you find it and repair U20 I would think you'd be good to go. It could just be a wire that is intermittently grounding out and that's why you were able to get some games in before it happened again. You may have to trace all of the wires in that row and inspect everything.

#31 5 years ago

I had a similar issue on a TZ. The problem ended up being the connector. I would get the 114/115 error intermittently, the problem would be fixed after reseating the connectors but then fail again later. The wiring from the driver board to the opto board looked ok visually, but the wire had broken at the end and was just hanging on by the vinyl. I cut off the old connector on the driver board side of the harness, crimped a new one on and it solved the problem.

#32 5 years ago

I still gotta track down the 12v I think - unless I have a bad connection at J102... because Im still not getting 12v with everything I have already unplugged?

Im going to D1, D2, and 7812 next to verify voltages there now that we have 18 vdc just to verify - unless I get other instructions

#33 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Zaza my man - where do we go next?

I have to assume that Rottendog board is almost similar to the original B/W board.
Keep multimeter with black pen on ground and with red pen try to find out where this 17.5V stops
In your 1st post you found the B/W pinwiki-link to the 18/12volt diagram. I think Rottendog is about the same.
18V -> diode -> diode -> 12Vregulator.

#34 5 years ago

D1 16.6 d2 15.2

Top leg 16.95vdc

Bottom leg .65 vdc

#35 5 years ago

Tested f115 getting .65 vdc looks like bad voltage regulator?! Ill see if I can pick one up tomorrow at rat shack.

Is it more likely this is a cold solder joint or the VR itself?

Is it advisable now to plug in the j133 to j138 connectors one by one to see if I can find the connector bringing down the 18vdc?

#36 5 years ago

The regulator needs ~15Volt input and a ground for reference to create a regulated 12Volt.
When there is almost 17 volt input, center leg connected to GND , fuse F115 pulled, and surrounding capacitors are ok,
there should be 12.0Volt on the3rd leg.
if not, replace the 7812.

Quoted from djsolzs:

Is it advisable now to plug in the j133 to j138 connectors one by one to see if I can find the connector bringing down the 18vdc?

Yes, but note that it isn't necessary the connector that you plug in is responsible for the voltage to go down.
When you close a circuit between the row and columns, the voltage at testpoint will decrease, but should stay above 14-15 Volts.
If voltage decrease when only columns or rows are plugged in, something makes a short to lamp-matrix.

#37 5 years ago

Well I did not pull f115 I tested it while it was in - so I will do that when I am home. I have no way to test the caps without just replacing them but I would be shocked if the caps were bad since it is a rottendog and they dont visually show signs of failure.

Would/could a short cause 7812 to go bad? Or could it fail on its own?

Obviously something is pulling down the 18v Ill be curious to plug the connectors back in to see if I can find the voltage drop.

Yes thanks I understand it may not be the connector I just figured I could find out which one may be bringing the voltage down or which one had the wire to trace back to look for the short.

Whats the best way to check for a short of the lamp matrix in my case? Is there continuity check I can do or should I follow the testing sequence as seen in the pinwiki? I dont think I have a bulb socket handy for this test.

#38 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Would/could a short cause 7812 to go bad? Or could it fail on its own?

Not very likely. The regulator has a build-in protection that -in case of a short- will shut itself down. That is why I suggested to take the fuse out and have the lowest number of parts on the 12.0V output. I don't know where Rottendog placed the filter capacitor, before or after the fuse. That capacitor could be the cause but since it is a new board, also not very likely.
You would have to take the cap. from the board to know for sure.
To test, you can leave the capacitor (C2) from the board and measure output on the regulator. It will not give a smooth 12Volt without it but it will give new information on where to search.

#39 5 years ago

Ok so I will test again with F115 out to see what I get.

Then I will pull the board and for the heck of it reflow the solder joints on 7812 - and also remove C2 and leave it removed?

Plug board back in and test voltage with C2 removed?

#40 5 years ago

Correct, and only J101 has to be connected

#41 5 years ago

Thanks for the assistance zaza and your time - I am learning a lot through this process. Sure I can see/read a lot of this in your wiki but it helps to be coached through this process!

also if you see this - what the heck time is it for you right now??

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

also if you see this - what the heck time is it for you right now??

at the moment it is 15:20 / 3:20pm in the Netherlands and one of the hottest days ever on september 15 here.
So, I'm sitting here next to the airco, doing some repairs, making some pictures, listening to music, pushing F5 once in a while to look at pinside.

Glad I can help you understand this powerdriverboard. It is quite a fun piece of electronics.

#43 5 years ago

Right on man starting to cool off in the evenings where I am - sounds like you are having a good day regardless of the heat! Thanks again for the help Im looking forward to narrowing this down and getting this machine back up and running!

Are you thinking in my case 7812 may actually be good but in "shut down" mode? Is the 17v I was reading from the top leg too much? I thought that voltage would be more in line with the Diode voltage...

All these components on this board are so new which was the point of installing this in the first place

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Are you thinking in my case 7812 may actually be good but in "shut down" mode?

It is not possible to predict what component is bad without knowing what caused this.
Could be a 50Volt line against the switchmatrix blowing U20 on the CPU and taking out the capacitor AND the regulator on the driverboard. Who knows.
Without fuse F115 in the circuit and eventually also C2, it will show if the regulator will supply 12Volt.

Quoted from djsolzs:

Is the 17v I was reading from the top leg too much? I thought that voltage would be more in line with the Diode voltage...

That is normal. It is a bit depending on the mains wall voltage and transformer. These are the voltages to expect on a board without load from lamps (original board):
twelve.jpg

Quoted from djsolzs:

All these components on this board are so new

Yes, also new board get blown by a short. Inspect machine careful for loose wires and components touching each other like lampsockets or coil-lug to switch matrix

#45 5 years ago

With f115 out getting .65 vDC on right side

With j133 to 138 plugged in I get 12vd

With j138 unplugged only it jumps to 16.2vdc

With J136 AND j138 unplugged I'm at 17.1 for the 18v at TP8

Will remove cap and report back

#46 5 years ago

Check also the 2 big capacitors below the 12Volt regualtor, maybe it has/they have lost contact with the traces.
RD 18V cap.jpg

#47 5 years ago

Reflowed c2 and the VR as well as the 2 caps. Tested no change

Removed C2 tested voltage on right side of fuse with f115 removed - getting .65 vdc

Should I test voltage at leg again? or is there a better spot to test?

#48 5 years ago

Looks like the diode is touching the the middle leg I assume this is no good...

20160915_230954 (resized).jpg

#49 5 years ago

Seems like I will be replacing the voltage regulator and that cap tonight.

Can I use a 100uf 100v for that cap? Im pretty sure the rule is the voltage can be higher just not low.

Can a diode touching like the picture above cause a short?

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Can a diode touching like the picture above cause a short?

That will give wrong readings in the switch-matrix but won't harm the supply.

With all test you have done, it very much points to a failing 12Volt-regulator.
Also the 18Volt is going up and down a bit too easy but with the lamp-matrix disconnected, it should a least give enough power to supply the regulator to make it work.

Best is to replace it.

Quoted from djsolzs:

Can I use a 100uf 100v for that cap?

Yes, no problem.

There are 61 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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