(Topic ID: 270046)

TZ 3rd Magnet or Not


By Pintopia

30 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 43 posts
  • 19 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 27 days ago by Billy16
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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Topic poll

“TZ 3rd Magnet or Not”

  • Stick with the 2 Magnet Version 19 votes
    49%
  • Pursue the 3 Magnet Version 20 votes
    51%

(39 votes)

#1 30 days ago

I’m going to be starting a TZ full restoration project. (Game arrives today ) I’ve been debating on purchasing the 3rd magnet playfield vs the 2 magnet version.

I understand the amount of additional work installing the 3rd magnet requires and I’m technically capable.

My question is for those that have played both is the third magnet option worth pursuing?

Thanks Don

#2 30 days ago

Why wouldn't you? Go for it.!!

#3 30 days ago

Will the third magnet make it worth any more when you are done. Is it worth the extra work?

#4 30 days ago

I am in the middle of the project now. I started by buying the 3rd magnet playfield so in a way I was committed a long time ago when I purchased it.

There are a lot of pieces to this puzzle. Unless you can procure the items cheaply, I have found it to be pretty damn expensive for the marginal gameplay differences. Yes it is cool when three balls are frozen, but it is a very rare occurrence when playing.

You need to do some serious electrical work as well. Plus from what I have read you take on the risk of messing up your other boards. If I could do it over again, I would skip it. Just my opinion.

For what it is worth, here is a link to a spreadsheet with notes on the restore. On it is a 3rd magnet tab with info on what and where I got stuff. I did already have the 3rd magnet kit which had the optos and the electronics for the high power board.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cpPt7E9-jpGFBFcxws7F77GraEo-IWlafqXq96BlAQw/edit?usp=sharing

Dave

#5 30 days ago

I did it years ago and it wasn't that tough. You say you are technically capable; to me this is a no brainer. It's worth it. Just do it.

#6 30 days ago
Quoted from John_I:

I did it years ago and it wasn't that tough. You say you are technically capable; to me this is a no brainer. It's worth it. Just do it.

What he said. Do it...

#7 30 days ago

There may also be a 3rd-party ROM in the future that takes advantage of the 3rd magnet more often in Multiball Start.

#8 30 days ago

I'm not a massive fan of it and wouldn't go out of my way, but if you already have it broken down then for sure do it.

#9 30 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

There may also be a 3rd-party ROM in the future that takes advantage of the 3rd magnet more often in Multiball Start.

If this is true, it would be awesome. I love magnet play (big CV fan). So the more interaction with them, the better.

Either way, I wish the OP the best of luck if he takes it on. For me it was a little more difficult since I don't have as much tech background.

#10 30 days ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Yes it is cool when three balls are frozen, but it is a very rare occurrence when playing.

That's always been my understand. Cool feature but doesn't change much gameplay. Personally, I would rather have a stock TZ and not deal with any extra maintenance headaches or gremlins from someone hacking it in. I don't think it would be hard selling a stock TZ being a desirable game so don't think it makes much difference in the end.

#11 30 days ago

Worth it if you have an early sample with most of the work already done for you. Otherwise I'd skip it.

#12 30 days ago

I have all the parts, but too much of a whimp to drill the playfield

#13 30 days ago
Quoted from metallik:

Worth it if you have an early sample with most of the work already done for you. Otherwise I'd skip it.

Mine was early production that had been easy to convert. It really does not add all that much to the gameplay after you have seen it once or twice, I can understand why they cut this out of the production run.

#14 30 days ago

Does the latest home ROM support the third magnet or do you need to run an earlier version?

#15 30 days ago
Quoted from Billy16:

Mine was early production that had been easy to convert. It really does not add all that much to the gameplay after you have seen it once or twice, I can understand why they cut this out of the production run.

One issue is the fact you have to cycle the powerball through the gumball at least once per powerup before the multiball-freeze feature is enabled... the software needs to know the powerball is in the gumball and not the trough. If you just want to power up and play and see the effect.. not happening.

Quoted from RobertWinter:

Does the latest home ROM support the third magnet or do you need to run an earlier version?

The latest home rom TZ 9.4H is the one that supports the magnet grab feature. Older revisions don't do anything. Once Pat figured out the 3rd magnet wasn't needed to help stop autolaunches, it got costed out and removed from production code. My sample game had prototype code in it that did nothing with the magnet. Ted Estes added code to the home version 9.4h to do the grab trick (and use all three magnets during The Spiral).

#16 29 days ago

Thanks all for the reply’s and a special thank you iamabearsfan for the spreadsheet. It’s always appreciated when someone goes the extra mile to document for others. Thank you

#17 29 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

There may also be a 3rd-party ROM in the future that takes advantage of the 3rd magnet more often in Multiball Start.

This post should be stickied for all of Pinside.

#18 29 days ago
Quoted from metallik:

Once Pat figured out the 3rd magnet wasn't needed to help stop autolaunches, it got costed out and removed from production code.

Hadn't heard this as the reason. I was told it was just for cost savings, since the game could do (just about) everything with two magnets.

In either case, this is one of the things Ted was working on with the magnet toss back in pre-prototype code. Was told that it was dropped because of difficulty (in-code) handling it with all the different qualities of machines out there. (PF angle, weak coils, dead magnets, etc.)

(Edit: This is on my game, running a beta of 9.4H.)

#19 29 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

There may also be a 3rd-party ROM in the future that takes advantage of the 3rd magnet more often in Multiball Start.

What's the scoop on this?! 1st I'm hearing a potential update in ROM is coming!

#20 29 days ago
Quoted from Kwoody51:

What's the scoop on this?! 1st I'm hearing a potential update in ROM is coming!

No. There MAY be one, but it's a ways off. I was working with someone on zapping the code out of the beta to do the tossing, but something came up and it's on pause now. However, hopefully, eventually, something will come of it.

(Edit to add: Point is not to give false hope, or start internet rumors. )

#21 29 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

No. There MAY be one, but it's a ways off. I was working with someone on zapping the code out of the beta to do the tossing, but something came up and it's on pause now. However, hopefully, eventually, something will come of it.
(Edit to add: Point is not to give false hope, or start internet rumors. )

Fake News!!!

I for one would be willing to pay for such an upgrade though!

#22 29 days ago

I kind of recall something went awry and Ted put a stop on any future updates?? I would not even know where on here I read this.

#23 29 days ago
Quoted from chad:

I kind of recall something went awry and Ted put a stop on any future updates??

Was that when someone bootlegged his home rom to accept monies?

#24 29 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Was that when someone bootlegged his home rom to accept monies?

Sounds familair. But not 100% sure.
Thanks!

#25 29 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Hadn't heard this as the reason. I was told it was just for cost savings, since the game could do (just about) everything with two magnets.

From much discussion back in the late 90s, the original reason for two on the right was to ensure autolaunches were stopped on the right side. Pat didn't think one magnet would be enough so two were originally allocated. When one proved sufficient, the other was costed out. You're right in that other tricks were in the works but difficult to implement due to variances in games. Could also be some tricks needed all three magnets... it seems once the 3nd magnet got removed, any tricks except the Spiral stops and "shot helpers" were removed. I assume the 3-ball freeze trick we have now was the only one that performed reliably? (and even then sometimes the ball ejected from lockup will stick to the upper ball and not roll to the lower right magnet...)

There was a Gameroom mag article on this back in the 90s, quick search didn't turn it up though.

#26 29 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Was that when someone bootlegged his home rom to accept monies?

Yea the hacked TZ9.4h was unfortunate. "We just can't have anything nice..."

#27 29 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

No. There MAY be one, but it's a ways off. I was working with someone on zapping the code out of the beta to do the tossing, but something came up and it's on pause now. However, hopefully, eventually, something will come of it.
(Edit to add: Point is not to give false hope, or start internet rumors. )

Crazy idea, but what about a "Gofundme" to get a more radical ROM to take more advantage of the 3rd mag? Crazy idea???

#28 28 days ago

I have seen and played a TZ with this mod and it is very cool. It’s “Money!” as a friend of mine used to say. I would do it. Also consider this. Your gonna have the game already broken down. Do it now otherwise you may never get to it again. Also, Mirco playfields are available if you mess up your drilling effort. There is really little risk at this point.

Good luck.

#29 28 days ago
Quoted from chad:

I kind of recall something went awry and Ted put a stop on any future updates?? I would not even know where on here I read this.

Quoted from chad:

Sounds familair. But not 100% sure.

Yeah - in the TZ thread I linked to the RGP post BY Ted that pretty much explains it all:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.pinball/5exaK_Q8-Pc/70Tl7ojZvBAJ

Anyways, this is off-topic. Sorry.

#30 28 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Yeah - in the TZ thread I linked to the RGP post BY Ted that pretty much explains it all:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.pinball/5exaK_Q8-Pc/70Tl7ojZvBAJ
Anyways, this is off-topic. Sorry.

Just read that whole thread. Makes me sad that someone hacked his work. I was a developer for a lot of years and I can empathize in that source code is sacred. Is Ted Estes around still? That thread is 20 years old now. It makes me beyond sad that he still had ideas to make other releases and it died because of someone hacking his code.

At this point, do you think the IP of pinball code is still a sacred cow with Williams? That to me is the sticking point. Would it be possible to at least approach Williams on such an initiative to continue Ted's work (if he could great, if he is not able to or is worse passed, obviously it would have to be someone else). My point is that the alternative is the code is dead for ever. Not that it isn't great code, but gosh, I really wonder what he had in store still. I wasn't kidding when I talked about a gofundme. If the right incentive was there, I wonder if we could re-kindle a flame. I know, I am probably pipe dreaming here.....but that is my personality

#31 28 days ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Is Ted Estes around still?

Works for JJP in Chicago.

LTG : )

#32 28 days ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

At this point, do you think the IP of pinball code is still a sacred cow with Williams? That to me is the sticking point. Would it be possible to at least approach Williams on such an initiative to continue Ted's work (if he could great, if he is not able to or is worse passed, obviously it would have to be someone else).

Ted won't say yes. I can't speak for him, but .. I'm willing to put money down, "No". We would need to contact Rock @ PPS now.

#33 28 days ago
Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Just read that whole thread. Makes me sad that someone hacked his work. I was a developer for a lot of years and I can empathize in that source code is sacred. Is Ted Estes around still? That thread is 20 years old now. It makes me beyond sad that he still had ideas to make other releases and it died because of someone hacking his code.
At this point, do you think the IP of pinball code is still a sacred cow with Williams? That to me is the sticking point. Would it be possible to at least approach Williams on such an initiative to continue Ted's work (if he could great, if he is not able to or is worse passed, obviously it would have to be someone else). My point is that the alternative is the code is dead for ever. Not that it isn't great code, but gosh, I really wonder what he had in store still. I wasn't kidding when I talked about a gofundme. If the right incentive was there, I wonder if we could re-kindle a flame. I know, I am probably pipe dreaming here.....but that is my personality

Ted is still rocking awesome code at JJP, worked on Hobbit, Dialed In, Wonka, POTC (I think?).

#34 27 days ago

I like the idea of a go fund me effort to continue the development of the third magnet code. However I believe we would need permission or a partnership with the license holder to initiate such an effort.

Perhaps if a new topic was started to rally the pinball community to get behind such an effort?

#35 27 days ago

You don't need permission or a license. You just can't distribute the rom. What you can do however is make a patch of your new custom rom that can be applied to the 'stock' rom. This patch would contain no copyright assets. It just makes it slightly harder for the layman to do. But if they've got a rom burner then they can probably figure out how to apply the patch. It's not hard.

There's a guy who has done this for a bunch of games. hook and TFTC come to mind. He's done a bunch of others too though.

#36 27 days ago
Quoted from pinball_ric:

There's a guy who has done this for a bunch of games. hook and TFTC come to mind. He's done a bunch of others too though.

Yeah, and he took them all down now, because of PPS.

#37 27 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Yeah, and he took them all down now, because of PPS.

No he didn't. PPS doesn't own any Data East rights.
https://www.pinballcode.com/

#38 27 days ago
Quoted from pinball_ric:

No he didn't. PPS doesn't own any Data East rights.
https://www.pinballcode.com/

We're talking WMS and TZ here. Not sure why you decided to bring in DE. The two folks that were releasing patches for WMS games (whom TZ is made by) took their patches offline, because of something going on with PPS. So it wouldn't matter what anyone doign with another manufacturer's code does, as if someone here were to release a patch for TZ, they, too, would likely be asked to take it down and have a talk with PPS/Rick.

#39 27 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

We're talking WMS and TZ here. Not sure why you decided to bring in DE. The two folks that were releasing patches for WMS games (whom TZ is made by) took their patches offline, because of something going on with PPS. So it wouldn't matter what anyone doign with another manufacturer's code does, as if someone here were to release a patch for TZ, they, too, would likely be asked to take it down and have a talk with PPS/Rick.

They can be asked, but producing patches (and not full rom distributions) has been considered legally acceptable.

#40 27 days ago
Quoted from mjenison:

They can be asked, but producing patches (and not full rom distributions) has been considered legally acceptable.

Quoted from Coyote:

took their patches offline, because of something going on with PPS

Not sure if I'm speaking a different language, or maybe I'm just confusing people. I'm not arguing one way or another. Just stating facts.

#41 27 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

We're talking WMS and TZ here. Not sure why you decided to bring in DE. The two folks that were releasing patches for WMS games (whom TZ is made by) took their patches offline, because of something going on with PPS. So it wouldn't matter what anyone doign with another manufacturer's code does, as if someone here were to release a patch for TZ, they, too, would likely be asked to take it down and have a talk with PPS/Rick.

I think he was responding to his own point that there are updates for Hook and TFTC. But yeah, all B/W games are no longer hosted.

#42 27 days ago

Providing software patches is well established to be legal. PPS can threaten people if they like but they don't have a leg to stand on. If they did try to do any legal action there's a good chance the EFF would step in to defend the author.

Additionally you can still get the LED ghosting patch for WPC games. That hasn't been removed.

#43 27 days ago

One thing PPS has always been good at--throwing their (perceived, perhaps) weight around.

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