Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider wrb1977.
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Could we please keep this thread on topic? This thread should be about deeproot and any associated updates, reveals, etc. This thread has in large part turned into a thread about new technology that could be incorporated into pinball. I feel there is plenty to discuss regarding new pinball technology to warrant its own thread. Just my thoughts and very much looking forward to what deeproot has to offer...best of luck to them...thanks!
Personally I really enjoyed the RAZA teaser...plus it has an excellent backstory. I know what I like when I see it and this I like...the animations look fantastic! I also could care less if any “unwritten” rules of 2D and 3D were broken like Brijam has suggested...that’s the beauty of artistic freedom. Sometimes when “rules” are broken unique, revolutionary, and amazing things can happen.
@brijam...I’m not an artist of any kind, although I can make a mean sandwich, and I disagree with you...see post #3164. Who care’s what anyone does for a living...just because you work in the video game industry does not necessarily make your arguments more or less valid than anyone else’s opinion.
Quoted from Brijam:This statement is everything that's wrong with America right now. Of fucking course it makes a person's /arguments/ more valid if they're coming from someone in the industry. I don't know much about climate science but I trust climate scientists more than I do people who talk shit for a living. It's why I asked if DS_Nadine was an artist.
What it doesn't do is make my /opinion/ more or less important. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. You liked the video, great. So did I.
I like all kinds of things that aren't of the highest quality. But that doesn't make them the highest quality.
The video has some good production values, but there were corners cut, and some of them are glaring - to me at least. I was hoping for more.
I agree with you for the most part. However...I said that just because someone is from an industry “does not necessarily” make their argument more valid. I’ve met people in my life that spent years in a particular industry that couldn’t find the backside of their ass with a mirror and a map regarding the industry they are in. It just seemed to me that you felt since you are in the video game industry that your arguments were more valid. It also seemed out of line to be asking what someone else does for a living as if to compare credentials thus validating your opinion over anothers.
The part about an amusement park built next to a defunct power plant which happens to be built on a graveyard is classic imo and opens up the possibility of storylines based around those three locations as well as outer space. The video was short but had a lot of content.
applejuice thanks for sharing!
Quoted from thedarkknight77:Is it me or is it so obvious that Deeproot’s big innovation is swappable playfields. Why do they act like we don’t know??? Robert sounds so foolish, we are not a bunch of foolish bums. Most of us here on Pinside are professionals who work in big industries, for big companies. He would be wise to listen to us. Why not take a humble approach to business???
It’s you...I 100% disagree with everything you just said. Listen to Pinsiders because “we” supposedly work in big industries for big companies??? Recently this thread proves exactly why they shouldn’t listen to “us”.
Quoted from aingide:A low bar!
Alienating their largest potential customer base is certainly innovating, though. A marketing breakthrough that worked great for Homepin.
Do you honestly believe that Pinsiders are deeproot’s or any other pinball company’s largest potential customer base???
Quoted from razorsedge:Pinside is not their "largest potential customer base", it is insignificant. There may be reason for DR to sift through the rubbish posts in here, but there is certainly no need for them to be posting here. Information is much easier to release elswhere, somewhere that trolls are in the minority. Good move ditching pinside imho.
Couldn’t agree more. I enjoy Pinside but it is like reading the tabloids at times with the same core group dominating the posts. There is good information within the forum but you have to sort through a lot of bs.
Quoted from adol75:62.000 pinsiders even if there's a lot of inactive accounts, most likely a lot of operators here, a big portion of serial buyers, I would say treating Pinside well can have a significant impact on a pinball company.
Then there is google and with the numbers of pages and word count that Pinside has on each brand, the link often shows up on first page.
Of the 62,000 registered Pinsiders I believe the number of “regulars” is a very small percentage of that. Stern alone is making approximately 30,000 new pins a year so I do believe Pinsiders are not as significant as many on here believe they are.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:Pinside is not the whole pinball market but every Pinsider is a potential customer.
But of the numbers, as you said only a very small percentage are active and an even smaller percentage of that the constantly nagging type... who take everything Deeproot/ Robert says personally while the remaining 99% don't give a sh**.
Agreed...very good points.
Quoted from hank527:How can they release RAZA when they do not own the IP?
Hmm...what???
MachoPinball knows...69!!!
Quoted from razorsedge:[quoted image]
66 ... and a bit
So, is this clock regionally adjusted? .... even though it is for a single local event?
18 hours from right now is 9am, here in Australia. I thought the event would start about 2am Australian time.
Does this mean we will get to access the launch info on the website 16 hours in advance? .... what happens to the website when the clock reaches zero?
Just curious questions Lol
btw, I do believe they must have something in store that is going to make an impact. Some of the 2yr old interviews describe pretty closely what is going on in the present leadup to launch, albeit delayed. What the (RAZA) First DR prototype non market pinball would be intended to represent (as far as DR is concerned), among other stuff I'd forgotten or missed.
All are excellent questions...”time” will tell! 
I truly do believe deeproot WILL be a game changer. Honestly, the pinball industry needs it.
Quoted from iceman44:Here is my pledge right now.
If i want a DR game in the future i'll buy one myself.
I want my $4950 that i lost to Jpop, refused to file a lawsuit against him, and got a credit from DR, to go to pinball charity guys, Ken Cromwell et al
Send a game or the $$$ if DR will agree to it. I see the airfare, hotel rooms etc. going to deserving people but i'd like to give my lesser amount to charity versus airfare, hotels and whatever else
Can we make that happen?
Anything is possible if you put your mind to it.
Quoted from iceman44:It's "possible" if THEY want to f ing do it? Get it?
Wow, the stupidity of it all is sometimes mind blowing. Really not. Par for the course
Hey Ice...I got it...let’s see if you can “get it”. Sorry for whatever you went thru with Jpop, it’s unfortunate. But honestly, I don’t care about your pledge, whether or not you go to the launch event, whether or not you like what they have to offer, whether or not you buy a future pin from deeproot and if you do how you pay for it, whether it be your deeproot credit or out of your piggy bank...don’t care...get it? I am legitimately excited for what they are about to show us in just over two months. The industry needs a legitimate competitor to Stern which will benefit all of us. Stern is basically a monopoly with a few other companies fighting for the scraps. I love Stern pins but they can be so much more both in innovation and quality but have no need to change as they are currently manufacturing at 100% of their capacity. They need challenged and right now deeproot is the pinball industry’s best shot. Sorry for counting down the days until deeproot launches and sorry for being excited. Carry on with downvoting my excitement for deeproot and what the future of pinball may have in store for us because of them. I know I just wasted my time as I’m sure it’s just more stupidity in your eyes...carry on.
Quoted from cait001:pinside needs a snooze button so I can just snooze this thread until the March reveal
Just don’t visit this thread for the next 65 days.
Quoted from vicjw66:I haven’t been following this thread much lately, so could someone tell me if they shipped any machines yet? I’m pretty sure I lost a bet about that if they haven’t but I can’t remember who I made the bet with and I suck at navigating this site. A little help.
This will get you caught up...
Quoted from DS_Nadine:43 days...
Thanks...I’ve been slacking!
Quoted from thedarkknight77:I personally was rooting for a Deeproot, but I no longer believe a damn thing that Robert says. He reminds me of a fake politician that spins the truth to suit his needs. Deeproot will go nowhere and it has failed before it started like so many before them. The very people working for the company know this and are just happy to milk the cow while they can.
Do you, @thedarkknight77, think the launch will happen in 42 days as scheduled?
Quoted from LTG:Looks like it will.
LTG : )
I definitely think it will...anticipation is growing! I wasn’t very clear...I was asking thedarkknight77 if he thinks it will happen.
Quoted from thedarkknight77:Oh, they will launch on time with a bunch of games that are 30% done. Their launch will be followed by Seven day’s of Kaneda podcasts bashing them. We already know that their big innovation is a cabinet system with lighting, that allows for swappable playfields. What good is that concept if no one wants their titles.
@thedarkknight77...we already know that their big innovation is a cabinet with interchangeable playfields? We do???
Quoted from PinballManiac40:What did Robert say, in the last Kaneda podcast interview, or write in any public announcement, that makes some of you think that deeproot would be going the route of swappable playfields? I just don't see any evidence.
Exactly.
Quoted from JodyG:They patented a playfield removal mechanism.
I believe this is just for ease of service. And just because they patented it doesn’t necessarily mean they will use it on the final design.
Quoted from razorsedge:No, what they are doing makes sense.
Pinside .... is being pinside lol
Agreed. What they are doing makes perfect sense and is not uncommon with new businesses. They came out of the gate swinging and hyped up their brand by making bold claims, which got a massive reaction out of the pinball community. It put them on the “map” and got people talking about them, a lot...mission achieved. Then they went dark to get some “real” work done with a very impressive group of pinball veterans. The team that deeproot assembled is sometimes overlooked...this is a very talented group. Next, at the Houston show they did some field testing of their new boards that they have developed on an early prototype, which got people talking about them yet again. I’m sure they got some useful data as they were monitoring the games with computers connected and put themselves back in the conversation...mission accomplished. Finally, they will have their official launch next month. They have not asked for $1 from any of us and along the way made good on their offer to Zidware customers, which they did not have to do. Sure they missed some deadlines, most start ups do. But with what I believe they will be showing in 36 days, everything will make sense and the pinball community will understand that they knew what they were doing all along...just my opinion of course.
Quoted from flynnibus:Except missing from your analysis was the whole concept of time... and what that means to a company that isn’t actually generating any revenue.
Lets not forget it will have been 2.5 years to get their first product revealed... all while supporting a staff larger than most other upstarts...
How many games have spooky launched in that time?
How about American pinball?
I love how people call missing your own deadlines by nearly 50% “making perfect sense”...
You have a very good point regarding time, but in this particular case time is not as big of a factor as is with a typical startup. What’s so exciting is I believe they are building everything from the ground up and have the time and financial resources to do it “right” and really change the industry in a positive way. Deeproot pinball is only one future source of revenue for the deeproot family of companies. This group currently consists of four separate companies: deeproot Studios, deeproot Tech, deeproot Capital, and deeproot Funds. Notice the last two. I do not have any first hand information about these companies but am speculating that they are more than profitable enough to support the pinball division for whatever time is needed until they become a profitable entity within the deeproot family.
Quoted from flynnibus:Man... you drank the koolaid, bought the T-Shirt AND mug...
The only factor in your point above is having a bigger reserve tank before you run empty. Simply put.. more runway. That doesn't negate that the money is spent. And unlike other industries... there is no Golden Parachute buyout at the end. Deeproot pinball isn't going to get bought up by a bigger fish. So all monies spent need to be recovered from one place... sales. Sure you can have a sugar daddy giving you free money... but the ROI has to come from sales. So the longer you are burning money.. it simply makes the hole deeper.Again... where do you recover the money spent? The point isn't if someone can afford to keep throwing money away.. the point is it's all a business. They are expecting to make money. The longer you run in the red.. the harder and harder that becomes.
You kind of have it backwards a bit.. Deeproot pinball is a child of the parent legal entities.. they existed prior. And deeproot studios is just a fancy way of trying to market the team he pulled together for other projects. Unless they are making sales... it really doesn't matter in this conversation if it's 1 company, or 6. They are digging a huge hole that eventually needs to be filled back in with margin from sales.
No 'perfect sense' strategy tries to put the company so far in the hole to start. And no, having a sugar daddy asset fund to feed you operating dollars isn't really 'strategy' either. It's simply having a parachute to bail out the capital needs. It's a safety net, not a strategy.
All very valid points...I appreciate your view and your response. No offense taken on your opening comment as I actually did find it funny...I haven’t drank any koolaid (hope to have a t-shirt someday ), but I do have kind of a “blind faith” when it comes to deeproot, maybe it’s just wishful thinking? I’ve had a good “gut feeling” about them from the very beginning. I hope I am right about what they have in store for us, cause if they fail, I see nothing in the pipeline from anyone to change the path we are on of lower quality and higher prices. Companies like Stern, which I do like very much, need challenged and to feel threatened to cause them to change for the better and I feel deeproot is the only shot we have right now for significant positive change in the industry. Otherwise, I just feel it’s going to be more of the same for the foreseeable future.
Quoted from Frax:Better to be cautious and wary than stupid and oblivious, ESPECIALLY with the history of small pinball startups. There's a reason the term 'irrational exuberance' exists.
The history of small pinball startups is irrelevant...this is NOT that.
Quoted from iceman44:Yeah the "speculating" you are doing is incorrect. Raising $35 million is gonna give you a long pinball runway.
If they can just start getting games out soon, which appears to be the case, and get cash flow positive at some point, they will have the opportunity to grow into a pinball company that can compete with Stern one day.
It takes Stern 300 or so employees to produce approx. 15k pinball machines out the door each year, and that number is growing.
Scaling up to meet demand isn't gonna be easy, ask JJP. Competition is a great thing!
Just asking...which part of my speculation is incorrect?
Quoted from DS_Nadine:There is a discussion?
34!
There will be...thirty three.
Quoted from Mercifull:Ok so 33 days to go until Deeproot launch (of DR Studios as well as DR Pinball)... we're all focussing on pinball, which is fair enough as this is a pinball forum, but can we expect a launch of something else from the animation side? A feature-length animated film perhaps? Or a RAZA universe set animation series for example.
I believe RAZA will go beyond just a pinball machine.
Quoted from Brijam:Care to elaborate?
Sure...sorry I wasn’t very clear. What I meant is that I believe RAZA will be a brand/franchise. With the amount of detail they put into the backstory and character development, I feel this had to be done for more than just the pinball machine. An animated series, video game, movie, app, lunchbox (lol), etc. are all possibilities in my mind.
Quoted from iceman44:You would think right but who is gonna buy it?
It takes a TON of $$$ to market a story like that in the mainstream and while they have big money for pinball it’s chump change to do anything else
Agreed...definitely a tall order financially. I would buy it ...I loved the teaser trailer they did awhile back!
Quoted from Frax:You're right. They've sold thousands of games and proved they can hang with Stern and JJP.
My bad.
You completely missed the point and countered with another completely irrelevant point. First you compared deeproot to other small startups, which I disagreed with. Then you countered my point by comparing them to established industry leaders Stern and JJP, which clearly makes no sense as deeproot hasn’t even launched yet! 
Please reference any other pinball startup that assembled a team with anywhere near the experience, talent, and expertise that deeproot has. This, along with deeproot Studios, their deep pockets, and not asking for a dime of pre-order money, is very different than other small pinball startups. I would think you would be able to see the difference, and then again, maybe not?
Quoted from Frax:Right now Spooky is the only one making games at a reasonable price.
Hmm...what? 
Quoted from pinlink:Does anyone think they will be showing anything more than just a further along prototype of RAZA?
Yes...much more. They are not having their launch event and flying people in to show a “further along prototype of RAZA”.
Quoted from pinlink:Flippable games? Or just more artwork of what's to come?
Both.
Amazing...first people complained deeproot talked too much. The sentiment was shut up until you have a proper reveal and have a final product to show. So, this is what deeproot has been doing. And now people are complaining they are too quiet and don’t know how to launch a product. Has anyone ever heard of “the element of surprise”?...remarkable. And now the debate is what defines media and who should be allowed to “their” launch event...fantastic!
Quoted from marlboroman:Don’t you ever stop ? Always negative negative negative I get it you lost money and more with all this but you just never stop man ! All you do is ruin it for people who want to enjoy the moment and held out until the end !(Like me) You’ve just become a troll and don’t even know it. Sheesh !
Couldn’t agree more.
Quoted from CLEllison:I've been unplugged for about a month. Has there been any other info leaked/released other than on RAZA or MG?[quoted image]
Just speculation. Here is all we know...
Quoted from wolfemaaan:Feel free to downvote payback
Do what?
Quoted from wolfemaaan:Feel free to downvote payback
Hey wolfemaaaaaan (you thought 3 a’s was cool...6 is way cooler), you never answered my question...what’s this downvote payback thing you speak of???
Quoted from Bublehead:It’s where you go and find all the post by the down voters of your posts and down vote them... kinda tit-for-tat reciprocity. It can really whack your d/u ratio... if you post a lot... just think if one user went and down voted every one of your posts and you have made hundreds or maybe thousands of posts, well, that’s still a lot of unanswered down Votes and no ups... so then you create a fake account or accounts to go and boost your up votes, then Robin gets wind of what you are doing, so you get perma-banned and now the problem is solved.
I do appreciate the explanation even though I did know what he meant. 
I was hoping the wolfmaaaaaan himself would enlighten us by explaining his childlike antics.
Quoted from pinlink:Probably the same reason I downvoted it. The countdown was old like a week ago.
I can understand and respect someone not enjoying the countdown...but to downvote a Pinsider’s enthusiasm and excitement for the official launch of the company whose thread you are posting in???
Quoted from kermit24:I downvoted you complaining about downvotes. Because it’s a broken record and not necessary.
I was looking out for other Pinsiders that in my opinion were getting downvoted for no good reason. I wasn’t even the one that got downvoted that caused me to post about it in the first place. Oh well...it was just an observation. Thank you...carry on...
Quoted from CLEllison:Gosh darn it, I was really hoping there would be more info on the other releases by now. AIW has always been a dream theme for me. What really surprises me is that we live in a age of leakers and we haven't seen anything leaked yet. It's actually shocking to me. And why doesn't DR post updates? Who cares if it's not moving along at a speed they talked about. I for one dig humility, it shows sincereity ya know? C'mon DR let's see some new stuff!
Deeproot’s silence and the fact that there have been no leaks is quite impressive...adds to the anticipation in my opinion. 17 days and you are going to see some new stuff! 
Quoted from Bublehead:I thought this was a forum to discuss deep Root pinball? Maybe I walked through the wrong door again... anyone seen an exit sign?
Agreed. Other than the direct impact the virus may have on deeproot’s launch, it’s just not relevant to this thread. I am not minimizing the seriousness of the situation we are all in, but it is not necessary for every thread to get infiltrated with coronavirus talk...there are other threads here on Pinside dedicated to it.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:There’s zero chance this event happens in two weeks. Unless they are about to run out of money and seriously have no other option.
Wrong.
Quoted from Bublehead:The virus is called SARS CoV 2, and it causes the Covid 19 disease. There is no "Chinese" involved. So let's just keep it that way and move on...
I moved on long ago. Just over one week until the official launch...anticipation is building...what’s behind those curtains???
Quoted from DS_Nadine:To be honest my anticipation died of a little bit and I'm just feeling sorry for everyones businesses.
Deeproot is allready a year late and has to launch, no matter what, and I can't think of worse circumstances then now.
Let's hope all pinball shows, barcades etc. survive that low time. (And of course everyone else.)
(That all said I really want a new pinball at home now more then ever. XD )
Agreed and well said. My excitement for the launch has waned as well...this whole thing has put me in a funk. I was just trying to escape the constant in your face and everywhere you turn coronavirus talk. Once again, not minimizing the situation we are all in. Carry on...
Quoted from romulusx:Not a big fan of the president?
He clearly is not...but he sure is a big fan of watching himself type.
I wish deeproot and all other pinball related companies the best during this unique and trying time. I still believe deeproot will be a very successful company in the long run, but clearly this is not good for them in the short term. At this point I feel there is nothing left to speculate regarding deeproot...we have all more than exhausted that probably long ago...but it has been fun! Until any news comes from deeproot themselves, I’m going to sit back and be patient from a distance. I look forward to DS_Nadine hopefully resuming his “job” as the official countdown device for Pinside regarding deeproot’s launch. Everyone take care of your health and be safe!
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Going to be hard enough to keep the big 3 open and going over the next 18 month.
The big 3? Honestly, there is only a big 1 with everyone else fighting for the scraps.
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:Rick And Morty sold out but that was before and how far behind are they?. How sold is heavy metal? Sterns other games on the line?
Hot Wheels Very bad timeing.
Deeproot waited to long?
JJP...who really cares???
Unless the financial backing for both JJP and AP decide to absorb the hit...they will both go under this year. As far as deeproot goes, they will either continue to show they can operate in the red longer or they too may call it quits and never even launch. Stern has a ton of overhead which could be problematic as well. Spooky should be good at least thru the production of R&M...and then? Unfortunately, I do think there will be a thinning of the herd when it comes to manufacturers. Interesting times ahead for sure...I wish all in the business of pinball the best of luck...I’m pulling for you!
Quoted from mbeardsley:That's a rather strong statement...do you have any special insight to support that?
JJP just moved it's operations to Illinois. This was probably a costly investment, to hopefully reduce future costs. You don't normally do that kind of thing if you are concerned that there may not BE a future.
Sure, the pandemic thing has thrown a wrench into everyone's plans, but that doesn't (necessarily) mean that it's the end of the line. JJP and AP both do have revenue streams, even if they are currently reduced.
Deeproot OTOH, has no such revenue stream (yet).
Nope...just my opinion. I guess I should have wrote, “I feel they will both go under this year as I believe they both have already been struggling and this may be the nail in the coffin.” Sorry if it sounded like I had inside info, I do not. I also very much hope that I am wrong.
Quoted from BobSacamano:The financial crisis in 2008 exposed the Madoff Ponzi scheme.
I predict our impending financial crisis will expose this one.
And then we'll hear the echos of... "I fell for a JPop... TWICE!?"
Expose what? Deeproot didn’t take any preorder money and actually did quite the opposite...they returned people the money they lost through Zidware!
Quoted from BobSacamano:Where do you think the "Private Equity" money is coming from?
If Deeproot learned one thing from SkitB, JPop, Heighway, etc... it's that the pre-order money from buyers was a burnt bridge. So the money had to come from somewhere else:
https://deeprootfunds.com/
The people who's retirement plans are funding this folly, probably have no idea who JPop is or that pinball is still a thing.
The first post in this thread was around 832 days ago. Lots of outlandish promises and how many games shown or delivered?
EDIT: I just re-read the interview linked to in the first post in this thread and see that it goes back way further than 2018.
https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/exclusive-interview-deeproot-next-misadventure-pinball-revolution/L OH F'IN L
What’s so funny???
Quoted from Mr68:My guess is the majority of people opted to get a game instead of a refund. In other words, people have now returned to biting their fingernails while playing another waiting game.
That was their choice.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It’s absolutely mind-boggling to me that 100 percent of these victims didn’t jump at the chance to get their money back. When they lose their dough for good, or (even worse) are subjected to having a RAZA shipped to them in 5 years, they’ll have nobody to blame but themselves this time Around.
I completely agree and would have taken the money myself, but I’ve never been much of a gambler. I do think this will still work out for those that opted for the pins.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:...13 weeks since the last update.
Back to counting I see!
Quoted from teekee:Just checking in... Oh I see it’s the same whiny women here still crying about Deeproot. I can already tell who the haters are and who will never be satisfied no matter what deeproot does. No matter what they reveal the same whiners will be here spewing their hate with endless boring post hoping for dozens of thumbs up from the other haters. Some of you guys really need something else in your life other than Pinside and your sticky keyboard.
Maybe this is failed logic, but if B.d. is “Before deeproot”, then 9.21.20 is still before deeproot. I am only expecting an official announcement tomorrow of their launch itinerary with dates and times. Nothing of real significance will take place until the 22nd or later. Good luck to deeproot!
Quoted from rai:Sad no one even knows where to watch this event. If that’s the kind of company this is, i wager they don’t make it.
Umm...deeproot’s own website where the 9.21.20.B.d. appears.
Quoted from DaveH:Good to hear that is says that on their site.... No, it says nothing. Awesome marketeering.
Common sense has also clearly left us in 2020.
Quoted from brucipher:It was never deeproot's live stream...
Bingo...THAT WAS NOT DEEPROOT’S STREAM!!!
As a long-time deeproot apologist, this is definitely embarrassing and they may be in deepshit as they continue to destroy their own image and credibility. They had a full in-person launch scheduled in March and can’t pull off a virtual launch six months later???
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:I believe dr’s intent is for both displays to reflect the same info. For that reason, you should only count 1 screen for RAZA. The arcade model eliminates the backbox and the rear display anyways. The pinbar is a display AND a touchscreen and only access point for menu.
All Deeproot games will ship with one pinbar. If you buy the x or xtra models, you’ll get a duplicate display (slightly bigger but further away) under backbox. The pinbar can be removed and used elsewhere. When that happen, the source game is unplayable yet it will have zero displays.
Read the TWIP article again...the Arcade Edition HAS A BACKBOX!!!
It is a standard style backbox with hinges, the panoramic wrap, and a 24” display.
Where in the world did you come up with this???
Quoted from pookycade:What Deeproot solved here was problem that nobody cared about. The basic approach was “let’s make the most sexy pinball alive so that we become the Tesla of the pinball world”. Ok, that’s a kinda valid approach, maybe. But from a players perspective we weren’t looking for world changing. Or if we were it would be only wrt lowering cost or improving game quality. Is there a single thread here titled “Backboxes just suck!” There is not. Is there a single thread titled “Why the lockdown bar just has to go !” There is not. Clear coat is one I will actually give you matters to players. So ok to work on that as part of the overall package. But when a machine comes out only a few things matter: 1) Theme 2) Price 3) Gameplay. I’m an operator here too. Ain’t gonna choose between RAZA and AIQ based on how one removes the glass or configures game. Sure nice of you to make it better but these are down in the weeds features. And this is just where the wheels came off the bus there. Market research doesn’t matter until it matters. Robert decided he knows what’s wrong with pinball and was gonna fix it for us. Hey if you are right on defining pain points then lots of dollars await you in any industry. If you are not then god help you when you spend millions of dollars on Feature sets that solve non existent pain points.
History has shown countless times technology and innovation offering solutions to problems people didn’t even know they had, until the new and improved way comes to market. Then and only then is the old way considered obsolete and the new way embraced and become the new standard. This is what I anticipate with deeproot, if they can ever get some games out the door.
Quoted from Roostking:Whos getting excited?
Me.
Quoted from Lounge:Did you see the pictures of RAZA?
Yes.
Now that the complaining has seemed to cool down for the moment, is it possible that the assembly line is ready to go? If September 21st went off as planned, would deeproot be taking orders? Maybe it’s wishful thinking on my end, but maybe, just maybe, they are only making some final adjustments based on the feedback they received and we may see RAZA shipping by the end of the year. Maybe???
Pinside NEVER disappoints...
RAZA - Still a prototype so nothing that has been seen to date is final, but I really like what I see so far. We know changes ARE coming according to deeproot themselves and the six guests. Why waste so much energy bashing things that ultimately will be different? Constructive criticism is always beneficial. The over-the-top bashing...don’t some of you have anything better to do???
Painbar - Easily fixed. However, if it’s not, toughen up. My Sea Ray has more squared off corners than a traditional lockbar and it’s completely fine. I know I know...Stellar Wars!!! More on Sea Ray to follow...
Pinbar - Absolutely brilliant and long overdue. I expect some form of this to eventually become the industry standard. The benefits are countless and utilize a complete waste of space where the traditional apron is.
Hinged playfield glass - Long overdue. My Sea Ray has a similar design and I love it. I wish all my other pins had it...miss you 4MBC.
Wraparound translite - Awesome.
Ultra-wide display - Also awesome.
Art package - More awesomeness.
Playfield and toys - Also awesome.
Ramp shot - Looks so satisfying!
Position of leg levelers - Who the hell cares as long as the pitch is the approximate 6.5 degrees that we are all used to.
Hammer test close-ups - Pinside detective work at its finest!
Pinpod - A fellow pinhead of mine had to send back two NIB Deadpools because of shipping damage...third time was a charm. All damage was due to the cardboard box being punctured resulting in cabinet damage. A wood crate solution is long overdue...putting a $6k+ pin in a cardboard box and hoping for the best is foolish by any manufacturer. Especially, now knowing they just repair them and ship them back out as NIB.
Touchscreens in general - Those of you that think they suck, trade in your iPhone or Android and get that hard-button flip phone back, you know you miss it! Trying to text with one of those flip phones is as archaic as navigating menus with those awesome buttons on the inside of the coin door. The ridiculousness of those buttons will be realized once the Pinbar becomes standard.
Germs on a touchscreen - Cause as you know, germs don’t live on flipper buttons, lockdown bars, playfield glass, start buttons, action buttons, quarters, dollar bills, or the door handle to get into an arcade, germs ONLY live on touchscreens...period.
Part failures - The Pinbar failing is no more of an issue than the main LCD, node board, power supply, etc. failing. ANY major component fails on any of these newer pins and it’s game over until the new part arrives. Maybe we should just go back to EMs as they are much more reliable in my honest opinion. I love EMs and EM arcade games, they are just so damn reliable once set-up properly and played regularly. Just making a point, however, I really do love EMs and probably shouldn’t have sold all the ones I had. I still have all my EM arcades and they are never leaving!
Pingina - Get a real woman and you don’t have to worry about how you are gonna screw your pinball machine.
Bottom line - I am in on a RAZA and “if” it is ever available for purchase, I will be selling a few pins to make it happen. I hope they do find a way to make their pins in-house, but if they ultimately become a design, engineering, art, etc. studio and subcontract the manufacturing, that’s fine too assuming there is good QC.
And I do realize RAZA may never go into production as I myself have legitimate concerns. Good luck to deeproot again in hoping they can bring this pin to market!!!
Patiently waiting as Cary Hardy suggested...
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Stern could keep that same menu for another 30 years and it wouldn't cost them a single sale. Why should they waste time and resources on revamping it when it works perfectly fine.
Do you really think dazzling and flashy and "non lacklustre" service menus are a good return on investment?
Don't you think if Deep Root could have shaved say, 6 months off their endless development cycle by having a "lacklustre" menu they'd be ahead of the game now?
Watching the plucky few here contort themselves into being convinced they actually need any of these pointless "innovations" we've been presented with is...interesting.
Are you on Stern’s payroll???
Sure seems like it as you seem so adamant to convince all of us we don’t need innovation and Stern is all we will ever need, which sorry to let you know, will be Stern’s undoing unless they eventually get with the program. It happens in every industry...pinball will be no different. And these are by no means pointless innovations.
Quoted from Yelobird:Oddly, I was going to say the same in reverse lol. Odd how committed a few are to Anything that may be suggested as change from the same old. No, nobody Needs to change the menu screens but to make something Possibly better is a bad thing? What do we care if it took them 2 days or 2 years to do. If its Possibly better it doesn't really effect Our business is my guess.
Agree 100%
Quoted from Reznnate:Nah, Stern's UI sucks and should've been abandoned with DMD's. I'd like something better.
Clicking through a linear list of 163 items to FIND the item I want is f'ing ridiculous in 2020.
Agree 100%
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Yes.
Stern is paying me to say that the PainBar (tm) is stupid, as 20 years buying, selling, refurbishing, and playing hundreds of pinball machines was not enough for me to come to that conclusion without financial incentive.
Ka-Ching!!!!! Keep them endz coming Stern!
I knew it!!!
My point is that as other manufacturers up their game and competition increases the little things start to matter. Those that have outdated technology will be left behind. Stern was reluctant to switch to an LCD display for quite sometime, but here we are. I’m sure Pinsiders back then were resistant to change regarding the DMD, but the LCD became the new standard and everyone is using it. I predict the same will eventually take place with something along the lines of the Pinbar.
Quoted from Lounge:wrb1977 - do you work at DR???
You downvote every negative post about them.
Yes. The daily commute from Pittsburgh to San Antonio is definitely not ideal, but the opportunity to work with the team at deeproot was a once in a lifetime opportunity I could not pass up. It puts a strain on our marriage, however, my wife supports me 100% and just wants me to be happy!
I don’t downvote constructive criticism...I downvote stupidity.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:That guy must be on deep root’s payroll!!!!!!
!!!!!!
Ka-Ching!!!!!
Quoted from Lounge:wrb1977 ... ???
Wait for it....
Read what I wrote in post #12085 in this thread...the answers you may be looking for are contained within.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:You are committing to buying a RAZA?
Why on earth would you do that? It looks terrible!
I also am planning on buying a RAZA, especially since I get an employee discount! In my opinion what we’ve seen so far looks fantastic and is a breath of fresh air. Seeing the video of Steve Bowden hitting the ramp shot a few times in a row was encouraging. I feel the production version will be more refined and a definite game changer...that is...if they can ever get the line moving!
Quoted from BazilBLast:Where else am I gonna post about how I feel about Dr , in the Guns N Roses thread which is going off because you'll be able to actually buy a cool pinball machine ?
His point was you said you just don’t care anymore.
Why would anyone waste their own time to post in a thread they no longer care about?
Answer...they either do actually care about deeproot being successful and are simply frustrated by all the delays, are a narcissist, or are trolling.
I believe you do care and are simply frustrated with delay after delay like myself. Hopefully all these delays pay off and deeproot gets it “right”.
Quoted from BazilBLast:I actually want them to go well but if it takes outside people to tell them their product is no good , with all their professional people , it makes me have no confidence in them .
Agreed.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I’m starting to think he works at deep root!
I already confirmed I do on the previous page...get with the program!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:So how's the mood over at the Deep Root office lately?
Busy busy!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Busy isn't a mood but that's cool.
True. However, too busy to experience any emotion let alone an emotion lasting long enough to even create a mood.
Quoted from Mr68:I really appreciate you coming forward as a Deeproot employee. I'm certain you're limited in most of the things you can say and reveal but I feel some confidence now with you here. Not a lot of confidence but some at least.
You must understand that the radio silence from Deeproot, combined with some serious red flags, leaves your company vulnerable to speculation and criticism here. And jokes about them which is where I'm at to entertain myself while we wait in a vacuum.
Also, this orwellian, autocratic control of the narrative is horrible PR for a supposedly family friendly business.
None of this means I'm a hater or wish Deeproot to fail. On the contrary as I know competition is good for all of us and I'm a likely RAZA buyer. I love the art and look of that game.
But Deeproot needs a spokesperson that can roll with the punches and provide some transparency and goodwill.
I nominate you as I have always enjoyed your style here on Pinside. Best wishes.
I appreciate your kind words...thanks! I’m just trying to stay positive like some others here as I think they do have tremendous potential. You almost have me convinced I actually do work for deeproot!!! Well played or just in case my sarcasm went a little too far and to clarify for some (not saying you) that just skim thru the posts...I am NOT associated with deeproot in any way and was just playing along with those that thought I was!
Here is my honest opinion as to what I think is going on with deeproot and NOT just what I hope is going on...
I believe they are having a difficult time deciding on, finalizing, and moving on from their complete redesign of the traditional pinball cabinet. This includes “innovations” such as the Pinbar and the other ideas that have been shown. I think the big reason they are “stuck” on this is they want it to be as perfect as possible as it will be used as their foundation indefinitely. I think they are trying too hard to get it “perfect” out of the gate and don’t want to have to change anything for years to come.
That being said, I think once they finalize their platform (cabinet, electronics, OS, etc.) they will start mass producing RAZA. I believe the playfield, with tweaks to their playfield coating, is done along with all rules, animations (which are next level imo), programming, etc.
Also, I do believe the designs for the other future titles they revealed are complete. The veteran designers deeproot have on staff have had more than enough time to complete the designs, whitewoods, and prototypes for these other games.
Finally, if deeproot can ever finalize their platform and they have a solid manufacturing plan in place (I know that’s a BIG if!), I do believe they will start releasing these titles one after another with very little time in between.
Bottom line for deeproot...they need to finalize the platform as that is what I feel they are hung up on and start making some pins! Deeproot can be a game changer and shake up the entire industry if they can ever get RAZA out the door and get some positive momentum going. People have very short memories and all these delays will be quickly forgotten if they can produce a fun pin with better value and features than their competition.
-Wayne (the unofficial voice of deeproot positivity)
Quoted from Roostking:They dont have any production.
You very well may be right but how do you know that?
I’m personally enjoying the silence from deeproot...crickets...perfect...just how it should be until they have something I can actually buy! I honestly don’t want to hear another peep out of them until I can order RAZA and have it show up on my doorstep within two weeks of ordering as they promised many moons ago.
Quoted from Mr68:There used to be quite a bit of content but now all of their sites resemble domain squatters.
https://deeprootfunds.com/
https://deeproottech.com/
https://deeprootpinball.com/
Maybe my memory is failing me, but they look the same as I remember?
Quoted from benheck:I can't wait for deeproot to leave
Are you saying you hope deeproot fails?
Quoted from flynnibus:None of it matters much anymore... years later we all know what they really are
And what is that? Enlighten me.
Quoted from flynnibus:A company years in the red?
A company with a failed product launch?
A company years behind schedule?
A company with a leader detached from reality?
A company with a leader who has failed 3 or 4 times to get to market?
A company still without ANY shipping product?
Or simply...
[quoted image]
The dramatic image of money going down the drain was a nice touch and drove the message home for me.
Quoted from benheck:Remember for me it's personal. John said I was "making a mistake" by helping Spooky instead of him.
Whoops!
Then keep it personal.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:You seem to be the only person here who is bothered by Ben's fantastic background posts on this whole mess.
The dirt is great and I for one hope he continues to deliver legal advice without a license. It's valuable info that pulls the curtain back, which is surely useful information for prospective consumers of this enterprise.
Not bothered...just tired of hearing a grown man whine and obsess over and over again. And I’m the only one? Clearly you didn’t read this page and the other pages that preceded it. Thanks for chiming in.
Quoted from TreyBo69:It looked fine. Now do a stream of the factory with people putting together games.
Agreed...that is the next massive hurdle. As great as I think it looks, none of this will matter if they can’t build them.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:It has a ferris wheel, a roto target, a side moving „goalie“ target, that ned mold above it with animated guns and shaking, that two way tower ramp, two magnets, that spinning floating disc toy, multiple molds...
You cant see it all due to the overhead perspective.
Exactly. If you want toys go shop at a toy store and fill your cart. RAZA is loaded with actual mechs...which I prefer over “toys”.
Quoted from benheck:It's a Cyclone ferris wheel, the WCS goalie and the TOTAN spinner.
John recycles so much he'd make Al Gore blush.
Your obsession with JPop is concerning. Please let it go...or should I say...let him go. You come across as bitter and clearly have a personal vendetta against him. I’m sorry if you got screwed by him, I truly am, deal with him in private if need be. Some of us are excited about RAZA and what deeproot is trying to accomplish and not your personal business regarding JPop. You have made your point clear countless times. So moving on...
What are your thoughts on the Pinbar and how it can enhance the pinball experience? To me, it does not take away from the magic that is pinball, and will only enhance the overall experience and replace an archaic menu, testing, and user interface. The possibilities are exciting!
Quoted from nwpinball:You know though that a lot of people are going to love those nods to those games, which are still all pretty popular and we love nostalgia in pinball. We love when a Williams cow appears in games, we love a new Black Knight with callbacks to the games before it, we love revamped versions of MM, AFM and MB, we are always clamoring for mods and updates to old games or new games in a series. I personally dig that stuff, I dunno about the rest of you.
Agree 100%
Quoted from Marty_Graw77:RAZA Arcade edition
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Marty_Graw77 thanks for taking the time to share your photos. Both editions look absolutely beautiful, fresh, and edgy. The vintage style lightbulbs on the topper are a nice touch and seem to be a nod to the chaser lights found at traditional amusement parks...very cool!
Quoted from benheck:John just wanted to remake Cyclone because he's obsessed with Python Angelo. (there's a Dracula on the topper FFS)
...and you Ben are obsessed with JPop.
Quoted from chooch:...and you are obsessed with Ben obsessing over JPop
Well played!
I tried to get Ben to move on and answer some legitimate questions I had for him regarding the Pinbar. He never answered and decided to continue his attacks on JPop. His choice...I will not comment on his personal vendetta again.
Quoted from benheck:The PinBar is a cool concept. But it's just another screen. It displays info and takes input, neither of those are an innovation. I like how it helps add players. But I'm worried with how much DR talks about narrative and how that might cause the game to stop constantly and request input on it. It's also why the lack of inserts on RAZA is concerning, means the game progression has to show up someplace other than the PF. Guarantee that's a headache for Bowden and whoever is coding it.
IMO the Stranger Things projection mapping is a much cooler innovation. (albeit an ancient concept) Granted the game isn't the best and the projector could be brighter (though it looks better in person) it's still a cool way to add diversity to an otherwise fairly static PF. It's like Pinball 2000 but doesn't add 200 lbs.
And it bears repeating that Millenials and Gen Z (the people actually plunking down location money) like pinball BECAUSE it is retro. I don't think boomer designers get this. They're in a mindset of "what do the kids like I know phones!" and we get Dialed In and The PinBar.
Young people are obsessed with VHS, tape decks, the 80s, vinyl records in the same way Boomers were obsessed with cowboys and colt pistols. The innovation shouldn't be a dumb LCD but how we can use today's amazing sensors and robotics to make the real physical PF come alive in a way that's more exciting and tangible than games on your phone.
DR has talked about everything BUT the game with RAZA. Hopefully their other stuff will be better. But this is a dud. There's no magic just a bunch of color and lights.
Thanks for the response...I appreciate your thoughts.
Quoted from TreyBo69:That said, if it’s really $5k for a base unit...plenty of people happy to pay that and ignore all the subscription stuff. (As long as there is a 90s William era level code depth without a sub)
My thoughts exactly.
Quoted from adol75:Just the classic aftermath of not communicating properly. The job is called a community manager and it does look like Robert could use one. The guy obviously suck at it.
Not communicating properly? They haven’t communicated at all recently other than letting a pinball group live stream RAZA during some field testing at a coffee shop. But agreed in general, their communication has been poor from the very beginning. Deeproot traditionally talks when they shouldn’t and are silent when they shouldn’t be! The last however many pages in this thread have been nothing but pure speculation and mostly bashing about DLC and subscription models that came from the “stuff” that blueberryjohnson dug up. This “stuff” may be what deeproot has decided to go with as their model, could be outdated info, could be placeholder pricing, could be something they scrapped altogether, could be them looking for reactions to finalize their pricing, could be them f*cking with us, etc, etc, etc???
I am going to reserve my judgement and opinions until something official is announced from deeproot themselves.
All this speculation has been informative for me, however, as I knew very little about DLC and subscription models as they relate to gaming and similar industries. It has given me lots to think about as it relates to the future of pinball.
Quoted from screaminr:Lol , keep dreaming .
Lol
Quoted from Lounge:Interesting that wrb1977 hasn’t chimed in yet.
Not interesting at all...had a busy day...sorry to disappoint!
Quoted from Mr68:...maybe cut the guy some slack. I always appreciate an opposing view and I thought wrb1977 always presented his thoughts in a respectful way. And given some of the recent developments he's probably reassessing his position. Nothing wrong with that.
I appreciate that...thanks man! That is exactly what is going on...stay tuned...
As most of you know, I have been a vocal supporter of deeproot since the very beginning. I absolutely love what I see when it comes to RAZA. Theme, artwork, cabinet, playfield, concept, storyline, gameplay, rules, etc. all look fantastic. The “innovative” Pinbar, I believe, will eventually become standard in some form or another with other manufacturers as well. I’m not going to go over everything that I’ve already covered in previous posts...bottom line is I have considered myself a potential buyer of RAZA for quite some time now.
Now that their website had launched and it was time to order, I had to shift my focus from RAZA, which I’m already sold on, to deeproot the company to make sure I’m making a sound financial decision. Starting with their new website, it’s disappointing. I take that back...it sucks. I went through the entire site and had more questions than answers. Another Pinsider made the comment that it’s what’s not being said that’s concerning...I couldn’t agree more! Just a few examples I saw when looking through the customization options...
The GI lighting options are not clear at all as to what you are getting.
What is included in the PinKit Care Package?
What is their Standard Support and what do you get for the $600 Enhanced Support?
What is their Standard Warranty and what is the $1500 Extended Warranty?
Basically, how do decide on these options when they are not telling you what they are???
On top of that, where did their “hammer tested” logo go?
What is the deal with the subscription and DLC stuff?
And so on and so on.
So anyway, I started getting that uneasy feeling due to the lack of clarity on their website. All of this evaluation took place prior to when the orders were supposed to open. Then, when I went to their website after the orders were supposed to open to make my final decision on whether I was going to take the leap of faith, I was greeted by the screen that said they were testing their e-commerce system. Shouldn’t that have already been done as just the day before you told the world exactly what time orders could be placed? That right there was the point at which I said to myself...enough is enough. By the way, my plan was to order an Arcade edition with the topper being the only option. The topper made sense because it seemed reasonably priced compared to the ones that Stern has been selling. I was going to do the 10% deposit to protect myself the best I could but still not miss out on RAZA.
These events caused me to really look back and evaluate even further deeproot the company, not RAZA. They have not met one deadline, have changed their model significantly, and basically haven’t delivered on any of their promises. So what makes me think they can deliver a RAZA to my doorstep??? And when it came time for me to place my order, I couldn’t even do that. They somehow even managed to screw that up and ultimately lost a sale because of it.
Finally, a fellow pinhead and I were talking about this yesterday, why in the world did they not make sample games for all the Zidware customers that were owed games and deliver those first? That would have proved they could manufacture some pins and would have instilled confidence in the rest of us. Until they prove that they can ship some pins out their door they are not getting a dime from me. I really hope they succeed and I still get to own a RAZA someday as I have been really looking forward to it. But there is just no way I can send them approximately $600 with no proof of manufacturing capabilities and their track record of missing every deadline they ever set. Maybe deeproot will pull through, but at this point in time I have very little confidence in them as a company.
I am out on RAZA...for now at least.
-Wayne
Quoted from chuckwurt:Not terribly familiar with his games. What are his most popular ones?
Quoted from iceman44:I’m hearing great things about Food Truck
I thought the theme was a joke at first but hey I’ve an open mind
Food Truck sounds like a lighthearted, fun, and humorous original theme pin that won’t take itself too seriously. The world sucks right now and will for quite some time...Food Truck will definitely bring some smiles...bring it on! Assuming RAZA ships, this sounds like a great second effort and Oursler won’t disappoint.
Just a quick update...
Deeproot updated their website and the customization options when ordering now contain details about the options. A step in the right direction.
They also added a RAZA Quick Tutorial Video. Those in this thread that have been saying there aren’t any ZOMBIES please watch!!!
Quoted from rai:what's the cost of these?
https://deeprootpinball.com/shop/machines/retro-atomic-zombie-adventureland/editions
Quoted from Tomass:They are not asking for a full deposit. 10% for arcade and 20% for the xtra.
Exactly correct.
Quoted from BallPin:Non-refundable. I still have property on the sun if people want to purchase it...get it now before Christmas before space runs out!
Yes, non-refundable, as is with most deposits. However, you stated incorrectly that deeproot was demanding a full deposit. There is quite a big difference between a full deposit and a 10% or 20% deposit depending on which model is ordered.
Update time...
Now that the dust has settled from my disappointments on the day orders opened for RAZA, I decided to reach out to deeproot because I could not help myself from still being excited about RAZA and to get some questions I had answered.
Shortly after filling out the form on deeproot’s contact page, I received a prompt, professional, and gracious reply. They were very thorough and answered each of my questions in a honest and transparent way. I never got the sense that they were over promising or trying to tell me what I wanted to hear to get a sale. We have since exchanged several emails and it has been a positive experience and I’m very appreciative of the time they spent answering my questions and clarifying things I didn’t quite understand. I am satisfied with their answers even though some of the answers were not what I was hoping to hear.
At this point I am reconsidering my position that I took on ordering day and I am once again seriously considering putting down a 10% deposit on an Arcade Edition. I still have a few things to consider before making a final decision.
If anyone is considering buying a RAZA and have any questions, I recommend contacting them using their online form as they have been very responsive and seem to know their product.
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:Well that's good to hear. What did you ask?
I cannot share any of the content of my email exchanges with deeproot as I signed a NDA that expires on my 100th birthday in the year 2077.
To be truthful, the last thing I am going to do is share the information deeproot provided me with people such as yourself that have shown by their posts in this thread that they are clearly not a potential deeproot customer to only have anything I say torn apart, bashed, and ultimately providing more content for the negative shitshow that this thread has mostly become.
Like I said, I encourage any of you that are seriously considering ordering RAZA to reach out to deeproot with any specific questions you may have as they are very responsive and a pleasure to communicate with. That way, you can get your answers directly from deeproot and decide for yourself, as I am doing, if RAZA is right for you.
Quoted from Makakka:A window shopper encouraging others to window shop...you aint ever gonna order I know this kind of talk.
Just getting all the information I can to make an educated decision that I feel confident about. You don’t seem to know me very well.
For example, I have ceiling height issues in the area of my gameroom that I would prefer to set up RAZA. I would not be getting specific height dimensions for the 1st and 2nd service positions of the glass lid and playfield and the overall heights with and without the topper if I wasn’t serious. I need to know if I will be able to properly service RAZA and whether or not I will have enough clearance for the topper. I may order the topper just to have it even if I don’t have room for it. I assure you that I am not going through all of this just for the fun of it. I don’t owe any of you an explanation...just thought I would share anyway.
Quoted from Mr68:Come on man, that's just cheap psychology and you're trying to goad him into making the purchase.
He's a grown adult, well versed in this thread and he can make his own choices.
Thanks man!
I know what he was trying to do...did make me laugh a bit!
Quoted from RobT:Exactly.
I can't believe that Deeproot is actually being praised for simply responding to a potential customer and telling them it will be money well spent.
When did deeproot ever tell the “potential customer” that it would be money well spent? How do you know what was told to the “potential customer”???
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Art this point it’s safe to wonder has every single RAZA buyer been personally convinced to pay up by a RM pep talk?
Now THAT’S customer service.
Quite the opposite...
I am not a RAZA buyer...yet. I will say this, all of the emails I have exchanged with deeproot have been fact based with zero attempt by them to convince me or sell me on anything. There were no low pressure or aggressive sales tactics being used let alone a pep talk! They simply answered each and every one of my many questions and politely wished me the best on whatever decision I make.
Quoted from Tranquilize:I also ordered this product on Amazon, and it is amazing. It perfectly performed the function that it was supposed to, even more than I expected. My friends wanted to buy it immediately, and I was sure to recommend. When I contacted customer service about the product, they answered my questions the day before I sent out my email and sent me a free unicorn, postage included.
I highly recommend you buy this product too. You won't be disappointed.
Cool.
In on a RAZA Arcade Edition...order #100087!
I’m definitely excited but at the same time I’m not naive and fully understand and accept the risks involved with supporting them. I exchanged a few more emails with deeproot and feel comfortable with my decision to go with the 10% deposit option. I’m hoping it all works out...time will tell!
Quoted from TreyBo69:I look forward to your unboxing update.
Did he give you an ETA? Did you get the nicer ones that get built first? Hope you get a fun game by summer time!
Thanks...me too! I ordered a base Ae with zero options. Since I did the 10% deposit (paid $589.90), I will be in the last group of the US customers to receive my game. I chose this route for a variety of reasons including wanting to be later in the production run. My understanding is that the first RAZAs are to ship 4-6 weeks after orders close.
Quoted from cpr9999:I wonder if your order number means 87 people ordered?
That would be my guess as well.
Quoted from Scandell:Let’s say there are 87 orders in.
Average price....7k.
20% down deposits?
Total:
$120k accumulated? Is that correct?
No, and it’s irrelevant as the point of the small deposit is to get buyer commitment and not to fund production.
Quoted from NoQuarters:Best of Luck - Really. Hope it turns out well for you.
Thanks man!
Quoted from BallPin:From the deep six's mouth to your ears! Skip to the 5:15 mark.
I also don't have a show. It's getting really weird at pinside, where everyone that's a jerk to me, also thinks I have a podcast. I do not. I have no time for that, nor would I ever want to have a podcast.
I REALLY wish you would have kept your word from your earlier post where you said that it would be your final piece on deeproot.
Quoted from NoMonkey:Congrats! Be sure to head over to the pre-order club! https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/raza-pre-order-club
Thanks...will do!
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:What drugs are you on? Deeproot being like Williams is the funniest thing I'll hear this week.
The drug comment was unnecessary. I agree with him. What deeproot is trying to accomplish is like W/B 2.0, which is what I like about RAZA and why I ordered one.
Quoted from Tranquilize:The game lacks good gameplay, just like cosmic Carnival. The pinbar might help, but DLC, if mandatory, will kill that. Plus you might not even get a game.
Have you played RAZA or did you form your opinion by watching the limited number of quality gameplay videos that exist?
DLC is optional and can be purchased individually without a subscription.
Agreed...there are no guarantees RAZA will ship.
Quoted from Tranquilize:WRB, please explain your downvote... I'm truly confused.
No need to post the same thing over and over...the poor playfield quality has already been covered numerous times.
Quoted from Tranquilize:I've watched many videos of new releases, formed an opinion, played the game and had my opinion confirmed. I can't think of a single game that I watched gameplay and then changed my mind for the better. Actually, I can only remember the opposite. To sum up my answer, YES, I am forming a strong opinion based on the limited quantity gameplay videos that exist.
Is there a chance RAZA will be more fun than it looks? Sure. I doubt it though. Nothing can make a Cyclone ferris wheel fun. Nothing. Also, the primary target zone of the PF is like the claustrophic Paul Stanley zone on Kiss, but Stern was smart enough to make it a less primary part of the game. The Dizzy Doozie is the only fun looking part of the game.
As for DLC (and unlike gameplay) you nor I have any idea what that will be. Optional how? What do you miss out on? How long will they continually add? These are mysteries that should make anyone uncomfortable with the product.
Good luck!
Fair enough. The game will ship with what is considered the final intended code. Any future DLC will be available to purchase without a subscription. What the content will be, how often new material will become available, or for how long after a game’s release will they create new material is unknown. The main point is all of that is optional. If the final code it ships with is on the same level as a W/B such as AFM, then I’ll be satisfied. And if something cool comes out that I feel is of value I’ll buy it. If not, I won’t, and will enjoy the game as is. Of note, bug fixes to the code are free.
Quoted from Calfdemon:For clarification, he wasn't posting the same thing over and over. He actually queued the YouTube video to the spot referenced previously so others did not actually have to search for it. Maybe read what he typed instead of looking at the pretty pictures and making an assumption... Just food for thought.
I know exactly what was done...and I still feel it was unnecessary...just my opinion. Since this one downvote caused such an outrage, I have decided to politely remove it so we can all move on. 
Quoted from CrazyLevi:You've NEVER used the service buttons with the playfield raised before? really?
Its not a HUGE issue, but it's a dumb issue. You didn't assume the Pinbar (tm) would stay on the lockdown bar when the playfield was raised?
It’s a nonissue. All diagnostics I perform are with the playfield down, so I can see the main display and run the necessary tests. Once I find a problem, such as a coil not firing, I either stop the test and then lift the playfield or leave it in repeat coil test and lift the playfield to diagnose. In any case, once I’m troubleshooting or fixing the actual problem found I am already done with using the test menus so being able to see the display is irrelevant. Then, after I make the repair, I lower the playfield and test again using the menus that can be seen once again on the main display. Again, a nonissue, at least how I service pins.
Quoted from Fulltilt:It was nice to see the Goodwill credits actually put into store credit and available to use for game purchase.
Done.
Awesome...I’m truly happy for you!
Quoted from JimWilks:Why is it so hard to get answers to simple questions like this? Is DR just not interested in letting potential buyers know how things work?
It’s not, just contact them through the form on their website or call them. I had many questions and they were very responsive in answering each and every one of my questions in detail.
Saturday morning thoughts...
With over 14,000 posts in this thread and for much of the time it staying quite active or on “fire”, I think the underlying excitement for what deeproot Pinball is trying to accomplish is undeniable. Can you imagine the pinball community’s reaction to this product if they just flew under the radar, no bravado, no JPop, and had a proper company and product reveal and started taking orders as they are now? I believe even the skeptics and haters are curious, intrigued, and even excited about deeproot. How could anyone who loves pinball not be? This is why I placed an order on a RAZA Ae. I evaluated and focused on the current product being offered and recent company activity while putting less emphasis on their past.
Most importantly, I really feel bad for those burned by Zidware/JPop and more than anything I am glad many were made whole by getting the Goodwill money or as some have just recently done by finally getting to place an order for RAZA using their long overdue store credit.
Finally, the most recent order number indicates deeproot is on pace to make more RAZAs than Spooky’s first title AMH or American Pinball’s third and even licensed title Hotwheels. Not a bad start for a new pinball company with all the “negative” history it has with it. I think the reason for this is clear...the platform deeproot created has tremendous potential. At the end of the day, if the product is fantastic and can actually be efficiently produced, all will be forgotten. Time will tell as always, but if the product delivers as I believe it will, future titles will sell in very significant numbers and deeproot Pinball will become a major player in the pinball industry while offering a fresh and exciting alternative to the current status quo.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:I'm way past caring anything about them except ship your god damn pinball machines and stfu.
Being you don’t care and all...why are you still here and taking the time to respond to a positive post in a thread about a company you no longer care about???
What I find fascinating (pathetic) are that people such as flynnibus who spent countless hours writing his 323 posts in a thread about a company he has no interest in supporting. That particular piece of work downvotes almost every post of mine...he’d even downvote a post where I offered to buy him a RAZA as a thank you for all his downvotes. Seriously, don’t some of you have anything better to do?
The time I’ve spent in this thread will hopefully pay off as I’ve always considered myself a potential deeproot customer and I’ve found value in this thread by gaining information from those who are actually interested in seeing a new pinball company succeed and push pinball forward. Thank you to those that have wrote well thought out, productive, and insightful posts whether just being positive and supportive or by offering legitimate constructive criticism!
-Wayne
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Thanks for asking. I'll clarify.
The word "them" in my post referred to Deeproot the entity. I do still care about my fellow pinheads and would prefer none of them lose money by pre-ordering from a project that has missed most milestones they have set. Not a good bet IMO. After Deeproot proves they can get machines to their customers the risk will be much lower.
Fair enough.
Quoted from Tranquilize:The game may be great, and it may suck. They may ship and they may not. There are clear red flags that you clearly want to ignore. Fine. But you're going to hear them, like it or not.
I agree 100% that I may never see deeproot’s first offering RAZA or if I do I may get something worse than Spooky’s first offering America’s Most Horrendous. Who knows, maybe I’ll get something really cool! I also agree there are many red flags. Where you are wrong is that I am not ignoring them. I am not naive, I fully understand and accept the associated risks. I evaluated the pros and cons in great detail and am comfortable with my decision. If deeproot falls on their face and fails, I will have no one to blame but myself as it was my own decision. I will be disappointed as hell, but at least I gave them a shot and supported them as I do believe in what they are trying to accomplish.
Quoted from Fulltilt:Not too many other companies trying to make a startup amid a pandemic with global shutdowns and government mandated closures.
I was loosing a LOT of money before Deeproot came on board. I put the Goodwill Credit given to me on a Raza Xtra. I had to pony up $90 to complete the shipping charges... inside the PinPod..
We'll see.. Golly, I hope I don't get screwed for another $90.
Quoted from flynnibus:Is this thread only about buying a new game? Gtfo of here with your “analysis” of what is relevant... maybe its such crappy comments that lead to all those downvotes you are so worried about.
Umm...I thought it was primarily about buying a new pin from a new pinball company...maybe I got lost? What do you think it’s mainly about?
“Crappy” comments...haven’t heard that word in awhile!
I assure you I am not worried about all your downvotes...just never understood why. 
Quoted from Mr68:I vote you guys take it private.
My apologies to everyone for my part in derailing this thread...you will not hear another word from me about this. Sorry guys.
I know this is getting WAY ahead of ourselves but, if deeproot were to someday make another rock band pin after The Who, what would it be?
My vote...PanterA!!! And they were from deeproot’s home state of Texas!
Can you imagine the energy during “F*cking Hostile” multiball?...”one, two, three, four!”
I realize this is a pipe dream and will never happen...oh well. What say you?
Quoted from Fulltilt:Mosh Pit Multi-ball!
Slayer would be fantastic...also a pipe dream...oh well.
Quoted from Mr68:I can't believe you guys are talking about dream themes when we still have no evidence of production ability and its been confirmed that Food Truck is the next title.
Agreed...and...back to reality. I’m going to blame it on that damn Mad Elf I was drinking.
Quoted from Mr68:Oh man.... Now I feel like Captain Bummer...
I hope to have a few beers with you someday.
Likewise! It’s all good...it just popped in my head last night that one of my favorite bands, PanterA, was from Texas. Just curious, is Mad Elf (11% Christmas beer) available out your way?
Quoted from Mr68:Apparently so according to my quick Google search. And I enjoy Belgian beers. Looks like I've got some more shopping to do.
Sure sounds that way!
Quoted from benheck:Other pinball companies might sell you the wish fulfillment of being a rock star, a superhero or a ghost-busting time-traveler. FOOD TRUCK lets you live the dream of spending all day inside a hot, cramped mobile kitchen making minimum wage while hoping ICE doesn't show up.
I guess you ran out of material bashing RAZA so you have moved on to bashing deeproot’s second title when they haven’t even shipped their first??? Classy.
By the way Ben, your inappropriate comment stereotyping food truck workers is condescending, ignorant, and racist. There are many food trucks here in Pittsburgh that provide excellent food and service at various events including all the pinball events hosted at Helicon Brewing. I am glad these legitimate companies exist as they are not only filling a need but they are also providing employment for those that want to work.
Quoted from aeneas:A similar question about Ben's involvement was just asked last week : https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/289
I see you're since 2 years a pinside member.
If you are indeed new to pinball and aren't aware of the whole history (not manye poeple here are, considering how many new joined this great hobby the last years) - the JPop/Ben Heck story started almost 10 years ago.
There's no easy overview of everything that happened.. you can read a lot here on pinside but it's scattered between 10.000's of posts..
and there's probably a lot not publicly said because there are nda's.
Here in this thread you'll find people that follow the history for many years and are curious if history will repeat itself again.
If you're tired of the negative comments - there's now the pre-order thread where only happy things are being said about DR and JP.
I wonder if Ben will come to peoples houses and help them assemble/set up their machines ?
What’s in the past is in the past. Now that deeproot is taking orders for RAZA, it’s time to see if they can accomplish what they set out to do. Everything in the past has been covered ad nauseam. Moving forward.
Quoted from pinlink:You'd be smart to pay attention to the past, not ignore it as you are doing.
As I’ve said numerous times before, I’m not ignoring the past. I fully took EVERYTHING (past and present) into consideration, along with the contract, as I placed my order for RAZA. I’m an adult and I am fully capable of making my own decisions and accept the risks associated with them. Time will tell whether or not I made the right one. I have to step off the merry-go-round as it has gone around way too many times.
Quoted from hank527:No warranty is the best. Just crazy people are okay with that.
No warranty??? Where do you guys come up with this stuff?
Directly from deeproot...
C944B7AB-B0EA-4FC0-BCD3-569CC995C8BC (resized).jpeg
This is just one example of the many myths floating around in this thread that are just simply not true. This kind of bs, as it gains traction and becomes accepted as a general truth, is not only damaging to deeproot and its employees, but to your fellow pinhead’s chances of finally receiving the game they are excited about and put a deposit on. Bottom line...all this nonsense can affect deeproot’s chances of long term success.
[Removed] downvote in...3...2...1...
Carry on...
Quoted from Mr68:That's great news but when did this come out? This is the first I've heard of it and there's been nothing in the pre-order thread. What about the no refund, the blanket indemnity contract? What else should we know?
Hey Kim! The warranty info I posted was available from the very beginning of the preorder window. I received that info directly from deeproot back in December while I was deciding whether or not to order RAZA. I had a lot of questions before I took the $500 gamble. Do I believe everything deeproot says like Roostking suggested...hell no! But just enough to gamble $500 on something I think looks cool! It’s a deposit, and like most deposits I’ve ever put down, it’s non-refundable so no big deal. The “blanket indemnity” as it’s being called, honestly is a typical CYA and I couldn’t care less. I’m either going to get RAZA or not, and none of those factors will affect that. I weighed the risk vs reward and determined the $500 gamble was worth it. If I never see RAZA I’m out 500 bucks and I knew that when I signed up and I’m at peace with that. Hope all is well!
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:Very interesting. Thank you for sharing!
So what was touted as a ten-year, hammer-tested warranty for a playfield that would never dimple ends up being a six-month warranty that doesn't cover dimpling.
Robert truly is the gift that keeps on giving (and jpop is the grift that keeps on grifting).
You’re welcome. As per deeproot as of December, the playfields WILL be hammer tested. As you stated they do not specifically mention dimpling, but they do state that the warranty will cover pooling, which is the main issue I have with many current manufacturer’s playfields. So assuming they honor this, this a step in the right direction with modern playfields.
Quoted from RCA1:It also seems like that post is showing that you would see the warranty information AFTER making the purchase. It would be nice to know what warranty and other terms and conditions you are agreeing to, before you agree to them.
Incorrect. The warranty was laid out in its entirety prior to signing the contract which completed your order. Or, anyone could have simply asked deeproot any questions prior to making a decision on whether or not to purchase RAZA like I did. They were extremely responsive answering any questions I had within 24 hours. I communicated with Wilhelm and he was great to deal with and had excellent knowledge of their product. One quick example, I did not know if I could fit the topper because of my ceiling height. He responded back not only with all the cabinet dimensions I needed, but also the dimensions of the playfield glass lid in both of its service positions as that was of importance as well.
Quoted from Mr68:Agreed, along with the blanket indemnity contract, those two things I believe are what caused the no warranty misperception.
Man this company is confusing.
Yes, their communication can clearly improve. But, if anyone that was seriously considering preordering a RAZA would have simply reached out to them, they would have got any answers they were looking for instead of relying on the speculation, misinformation, and nonsense contained in this thread.
Deeproot was very up front with me stating they are a new company and are learning from their mistakes. I appreciated their honesty and transparency. They have clearly been smacked with a dose of reality since all of Robert’s early outlandish claims and bravado. They also didn’t pressure me into preordering with any aggressive sales tactics and simply answered my questions while wishing me the best regardless of my decision.
One other thing of note that I was told in my communications in December PRIOR to making the decision to order RAZA...when I asked them when RAZA would actually ship, they acknowledged that the dates provided on their website were goals but didn’t know with certainty when they would ship. Robert has recently expressed this same sentiment. As far as I’m concerned, I’m hoping for sometime this year. But, I just want them to get it right so I’m being patient. Deeproot NEEDS to nail this as the sales of future titles and their success depends on it!
Quoted from RCA1:Thanks, but I'm not sure I understand.
Where can we see the warranty terms? Are you saying that you had to ask? Or that they were visible during the order process, but not before?
I thought I was pretty clear in my previous post...maybe not? The warranty was clearly defined during the preorder process BEFORE you signed the contract which then completed your order. Or, you could have simply asked them, as I did, any questions you had before taking the “plunge”.
Quoted from frolic:Uh... 3 week sales window of "buy now or never" is an aggressive sales tactic.
Sure...it can be viewed as such. When communicating with them that did not come up at all and it was just simply them answering all of my questions. All I can tell you is that I had a VERY positive no pressure experience communicating with them while deciding whether or not to preorder. I looked at the sales window as...you want it, now is the time...or...shit or get off the pot! I look at RAZA as the springboard for all their other future titles that Oursler and others have been working on.
Quoted from Roostking:WRONG! If you upgraded to an Enhanced pf, you get one full year of protection. I mean, with Octo-manufacturing, they can run 4 variations on the same line and give exactly what the customer ordered, no more, no less..
MORE MISINFORMATION! There is no such thing as an “enhanced playfield” only an enhanced warranty! The enhanced warranty was available to buy during the preorder process for RAZA and doubled the warranty for those that wanted a longer period of coverage. No different than buying an extended warranty on a car, TV, appliance, etc.
This place cracks me up...enhanced playfield...classic!
Quoted from Haymaker:Lets hope they honor that as their very own pictures of "preproduction" playfields have pooling issues.
Agreed...I noticed that as well.
Quoted from flynnibus:Available from the very beginning? You mean the information that you only got after contacting the company directly because in your own words...
————————
It even took a week? Of back and forth to convince you... an acknowledged blind faith buyer... to buy in. Then you jump on people for incomplete info? Oh how quickly we forget...Unfortunately its not just $500 at risk. Sure that is your deposit, but you really will have 6k+ on the line... because just receiving the game is not necessarily what makes you whole and satisfied. This is where the very explicit agreement will favor DR... not you.
Even you said you wouldn’t trust everything they said.. and their “legal team” convinced them they needed to have an terms of sale document you explicitly had to individually acknowledge. This is not the posture of customer satisfaction and extended recovery... that is a defensive posture... and its gonna be your full game on the table, not just a deposit.Hrmmm... heard that excuse before too... “my company failed because of pinside...”. From who... oh yeah another company over promising, trying to control information and avoid self responsibility.
Yes, it was there from the very beginning as part of the preorder process. I didn’t go far enough into the process to see the warranty, therefore, I asked. If I would have went further I would have saw it and wouldn’t of had to ask. So yes, it was there from the beginning of the preorder process as part of the contract at checkout prior to payment. And yes, their communication and how they present information needs improvement. Got it now?
Oh how you think you know everything... Yes, it took me a week to decide as I’m thorough and wanted as much information as possible to make an educated decision, your point? I was not jumping on people for incomplete info, I was jumping on people for wrong info. The word on the street here in this thread was that deeproot offered no warranty, which I felt like correcting. Do you understand the difference between incomplete info and wrong info? And by the way, I didn’t forget ANYTHING...I LIVED IT while you were admiring your own posts here in this thread.
No way! I’m going to have $6k on the line once I pay in full and receive RAZA...I had no idea!!! And what warranty doesn’t favor the manufacturer??? Have you ever bought anything in your life? I got to say, I’m still reeling from you opening my eyes that once I receive RAZA I’m going to have more than my $500 deposit on the line...damn what did I do???
I never said deeproot will fail because of Pinside. I said that blatant misinformation can be damaging to a company. We cool now?
Quoted from flynnibus:According to your other self in December it wasn’t.
Getting the info one on one via personal inquiry before you decided sure doesn’t sound like “during the preorder process”.
Me and my “other self” both decided that “we” covered this topic sufficiently in “our” previous post.
Quoted from Tranquilize:I was seriously considering a purchase and did reach out. This is what I recieved:
[quoted image]
Lady luck appears in strange ways...
You had to use the form that can be found under the “contact” section of their website.
Or...Lady Luck may have not been so lucky for you...time will tell!
What I find absolutely fascinating is that you guys care more about an update from deeproot than I do and I have skin in the game! That is not an attack on you guys, just an observation. I honestly didn’t even remember that we were supposed to get an update by today. The only thing that really matters at this point for me is a game landing on my doorstep. I appreciate deeproot periodically giving us preorder folks updates as transparency is important, but they are essentially meaningless at this stage of the game. Just 2 cents from someone who rolled the dice. Carry on...
Quoted from RobT:Do you *really* believe that what you are getting from Deeproot is transparency??
Transparency in the truest sense of the word...no.
Quoted from Mr68:Its after business hours in Texas on the final day of March and the pre-order thread is dead. I suspect they have already gotten their update, Deeproot organized a locked down and they have closed ranks.
If true, I'm not sure how I feel about it.
No update from deeproot Kim.
Quoted from benheck:Here's the options:
1) build RAZA super slow with a few guys (like AMH). Spin up a line a year from now when they have something that will sell. (NOT AN UN-LICENSED THEME)
2) spin up a line and build RAZA as quickly as possible. Won't be that fast though since they're just getting started, but can probably do all games by end of year. Have A LICENSED THEME ready when RAZA is finished. Food Truck won't sell shit. Memes != Money, just ask the makers of Snakes on a Plane.
3) do (2) but without something ready. When RAZA is done you'll have the line but lose the workers, this will require you to waste time re-hiring and re-training when next game is ready (this happened to JJP)
4) throw in the towel
5) You worry less about deeproot and more about your own game. For someone that has only made one mediocre pin back in 2014 (7 years ago), you sure do talk a lot. How is the masterpiece “Heckendorn #2” coming along??? I hope with #2 you don’t steal/recycle existing mechs (AFM, BK2K, etc) like you did on AMH and are constantly accusing JPop of doing. Remember...every time you point your finger at someone there are three fingers pointing back at yourself.
Quoted from TreyBo69:When is your game coming out?
See how pointless that was?
I don’t talk like Heck does and never claimed to have a game coming out. I am not capable nor do I have the desire to do so. I also don’t criticize ad nauseam those that are trying to do so.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Is this a vague allusion that it’s somehow this threads fault (and not Robert’s) if deeproot fails?
Not at all.
Quoted from Roostking:Pre-order people will be. Im not talking about the goodwill buyers.
Nope...I fully knew what I was rolling the dice on and am at peace with my decision regardless of the outcome.
Quoted from Roostking:Pre-order people will be. Im not talking about the goodwill buyers.
Let me put this a different way you will appreciate. In tribute to my all time favorite band and your avatar, this is how I feel regarding my deposit on RAZA...
“F*ck it all and f*cking no regrets!”
-Metallica
Quoted from Bruce_Pickle:St Anger is a shit album
-Everyone
Disagree...but I was actually referencing the first time James sings that line on the song “Damage, Inc.” from MoP.
Quoted from flynnibus:You really think he's done no pinball work inbetween AMH and CGC?
I stand by my statement...1 game 7 years ago does not warrant his constant “know it all” attitude and criticism of JPop and deeproot. The recycled and regurgitated one-liners “purple vomit”, Python Anghelo Cyclone remake, old mechs, Starbucks addict, RAZA indecipherable storyline (wrong!), no zombies (wrong again!), etc etc etc, blah blah blah, is tiresome. Heck needs some new material.
Quoted from flynnibus:You see it all the time - for the people that are honest and can handle feedback.
But those that try to blow smoke, deceive, deflect, and attack others for their own moves... well those get called out and usually end up stomping away.
Which do you think Deeproot is?
Time will tell.
Quoted from Rarehero:The people who love this hobby don't like to be ripped off, see their friends ripped off, or blustery big talkers with no proof they can start/run a manufacturing company. Jpop's been screwing this community since he started taking money for Magic Girl. Why would anyone be supportive of him and his balls? Robert has done nothing but swagger, talk, and waste money...why should anyone support that? A hobby that's been through the deception and loss of money due to Jpop, Skit-B, Heighway, and Dutch doesn't owe these people anything. They deserve all the critique they get. Respect must be earned. If they can prove that they're capable of manufacturing, shipping, and supporting games - then they will earn support. Until then, the repeated history of pinball startups tells us what we need to know about this company, and the onus of tearing down the obvious red flags is on them. We don't need them. They need us.
All fine and understandable up until the point the preorder window closed to try to sway people and influence them. Even then it’s still my money and I can do what I want with it, but if you felt it was your duty to protect the pinball community from what you viewed as a mistake...cool I guess? It’s like you are still on your noble quest to “save” people from making what you viewed as a mistake. Guess what? That ship sailed. Those of us in on RAZA already paid the deposit so you can stop with your holy crusade as I can flush my money down a toilet if I want. Maybe that’s what I did with RAZA and I’m cool with it! Got it???
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It would be nice if obnoxious rich newbies didn't announce themselves by throwing a bunch of money around while talking shit about EVERYBODY in the industry and hobby for years, for reasons that I don't think anybody yet understands. If that's "balls" I think I'll just go with ovaries on this one.
Agreed.
Quoted from benheck:Lemme know when I've stolen a million bucks from the community.
My "mediocre" game (granted, it ain't the best) launched Spooky who now employ 30 people and make 1K games per year.
I rip on JPOP (the fraud hack) because I've accomplished what he was too busy slurpling Starbucks to do - roll up my sleeves and get a game DONE.
ONCE upon a time you did roll up your sleeves and get a game done.
I haven’t posted in 5 or 6 months as pinball traditionally takes a back seat to my other hobbies during the summer and in the fall I changed careers which has kept me busy but has been very exciting! I was not hiding with my tail between my legs or anything like that as some have suggested, just very disappointed and disgusted when I found out what Robert Mueller was really up to behind the scenes...I honestly did not see that coming and left me speechless.
Hoteldrummer you are barking up the wrong tree with regards to @mr68. Kim is good people and we became friends even though we were on opposing sides of the deeproot saga. He was always respectful when we debated things and truly hoped that things would work out for me.
Just for the record...I was very aware of all the red flags and knew I was taking a big risk when I put my $589.90 deposit down on a RAZA arcade edition. My main reasons for taking that risk was I really liked the theme and art package a lot, I liked their fresh take on pinball such as the ultra-wide display and yes, even the Pinbar. And lastly, the extensive staff of well known pinball veterans gave me confidence and hope that this might actually happen. It was very simple, I went after something I thought looked really cool and it didn’t work out. I was not looking for a winning lottery ticket like some have suggested, I just took a chance on trying to own what I thought was an awesome looking pin.
I truly feel bad for everyone that got screwed by Robert Mueller, the “little old ladies”, all of his staff for all of their efforts that most likely will never see the light of day, and any other investors or supporters. There is a special place for people like RM.
Finally, my refund for my RAZA deposit through Citicard was initially approved, but then after they requested additional paperwork, that decision was reversed. Bummer...lesson learned.
I hope everyone reading this has a great 2022! As promised to all the deeproot critics and skeptics...
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