(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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Topic index (key posts)

357 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (6 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by PinMonk (4 years ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (4 years ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (4 years ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (4 years ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (4 years ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (4 years ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (4 years ago)


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#4 6 years ago

Agreed. I'll listen to/read the interview, but comparisons like "build a Ferrari and sell it at KIA prices" are just ridiculous. I get the concept, but the engine in a Ferrari costs as much as two KIAs do. These are the types of things used car salesmen say.

#8 6 years ago
Quoted from pin2d:

Here is the link mentioned above for the deeproot job postings: https://www.indeedjobs.com/deeproot-tech/_hl/en_US

Are those typical salaries for the industry?

22
#46 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

What's left for John to rob from the EM graveyard? Rototargets? Flipping Flags?

There is one big idea he could steal that he hasn't yet........ actually completing a game.

#88 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

That interview delivered!!!
Eagerly awaiting this promised "masterpiece!"

Don't forget Ferrari quality at the cost of a KIA.

Guess I'm just a "pessimist" though.

1 month later
#164 6 years ago

Quality of a Ferrari at a Kia price. Can't wait to see it.

16
#206 6 years ago
Quoted from clempo:

Does anybody have any idea what Quad Assembly could be?

Another piece of jargon spewed to seem "advanced".

You want to impress me about manufacturing? Throw out terms that mean something, like lean or six sigma.

What kind of ego comes out of the gate basically claiming they are going to smash everyone else's product. The only place to go from there is down.

19
#301 6 years ago

Only losers try to claim credit, winners give credit.

#337 6 years ago

Could add Houdini to that list as well. Even though deeproot claims they will be making it, Jpop's houdini has yet to be produced.

1 week later
#411 6 years ago

Just read through the goodwill terms. Interesting.

11
#417 6 years ago

I think this should be saved here for posterity. 508 days to get multiple games delivered.

https   zidware deeproottech com.pnghttps zidware deeproottech com.png

#487 6 years ago
Quoted from DennisK:

Alright, the podcast episode just released, here is a link:
https://soundcloud.com/user-465086826/episode-55
The interview is just after the introduction segment (jump ahead to 4:30 to get just before it starts), and runs a little over 50 minutes.

In this interview deeproot says that every playfield will be hit with a sledgehammer and if it leaves a mark the playfield will be rejected.

#502 6 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

My guess is the sledge hammer is metaphorical. Because why would you need to use one to test a pin?

You sure? He was pretty adamant that was how they were going to test their clear coat. Said he was tired of dimples.

You should see the sledge hammer testing room at Ferrari.

#510 6 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

On the sledgehammer, maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but not a metaphor. Warranty for PF will be unheard of, so we take its durability seriously.

Wait, you mean you aren't going to take a sledgehammer to every playfield? No kidding, it's dumb.

Maybe cut back on the over-exaggeration. You completely discredit other things you say when you say obviously wrong/incorrect things.

#512 6 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.
—dT

I look forward to seeing that. Think you guys will post video at some point?

#524 6 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Every playfield will be hit with a hammer multiple times as T-nuts are installed, maybe this is what they are referring to?

But the playfield will be so impenetrable, how will the t-nuts go in?

2 months later
#774 5 years ago

Is pettiness an official claim denial reason?

#784 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

remember when they said they could/would deny claims based on people tearing them down? well, I think you see them doing that here

So pre-meditated pettiness?

#807 5 years ago

Of course they have his documentation, deeproot just wants to play some kind of power game.

#838 5 years ago

I can't remember either if it was 5 by TPF, but they definitely had this in their literature about the JPop deal:

https   zidware deeproottech com.pnghttps zidware deeproottech com.png

Says multiple titles by the delivery date, which is June 30th, 2019 in that document. 422 days to go.

1 month later
#898 5 years ago

Bowden is certainly an interesting hire and I wish him the absolute best there.

I still have a huge problem with them hiring JPop, but for the sake of people like Steve I'm not going to wish failure on the company.

#953 5 years ago

Hold up there. Elon Musk is positioned to be the savior of humanity if his plans come to fruition.

There is a stark difference between him and your run of the mill, egotistical, mid size CEO.

4 weeks later
#1148 5 years ago

Copperfield blows compared to Penn and Teller. Copperfield's show in Vegas was lame when i saw it.

#1157 5 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

I read reviews that for the past few years he's just been going through the motions. Every once in awhile people catch him on a good night, but most of the time the show is lacking any energy.

I saw him around 15 years ago. He was doing his "I can fly" trick at that point.

It was 30 minutes of him droning on about how he had a dream when he was a child about flying, blah blah, for one trick. No thanks.

The blue man group would make a better pinball machine than a Copperfield pin. The Blue Man group was an amazing show.

#1193 5 years ago

A piece of titanium the size of a playfield would weigh about 80 pounds and only cost around $200k.

1 week later
#1275 5 years ago
Quoted from djreddog:

Best of luck Steve

+10000x

I hope this adventure for Steve turns out to be fun and enjoyable!

#1307 5 years ago

Hah, you thought doing content for a relatively small LCD involved more work, expand that to a playfield sized LCD with full physics engine and stuff.

Good luck generating the content to make that compelling without AAA game studio size staff and talent, even if you leverage unity.

1 month later
#1503 5 years ago

I have a recent pachinko machine and it has a 3D LCD that doesn't require glasses.

#1576 5 years ago

Ice Pirates.

#1588 5 years ago

What about that movie The Final Countdown where the nuclear aircraft carrier goes back in time.

That's a winner right there.

#1602 5 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Teen Witch. Top That!

Classic!

#1663 5 years ago

It's just people having fun and lightening the mood. Not everything has to be super serious for the entire time, just my 2 cents.

I'm as skeptical of deeproot as anyone, but I'm willing to watch the thing play out.

#1676 5 years ago

The main guy there reminds me a lot of Green Goblin in his armor.
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

1 month later
#1954 5 years ago

More full time heads than all the other manufacturers combined? That seems overstated. Either that or potentially pushing up against Brooks' Law.

4 months later
#2824 4 years ago
Quoted from OnTheSnap:

The sound and video is just STUNNING in this clip. If this is just the tip of the iceberg!?

Neat but certainly not "STUNNING".

#2865 4 years ago

No matter what they charge, it comes down to EBIT and revenue per widget moved out of the building.

Just doing some simple math, at 750k a month going out, if they have operated at that burn rate for 6 months and will operate for 6 more months before steady revenue, that is 9 million dollars in the red.

If they make even a very generous 3k per machine they get out the door, that is 3000 games they have to sell to even recoup that cost, not counting the ongoing burn. With these numbers they have to ship 250 games a month to break even.

I think im being very generous with the 3k profit per machine too.

The math/business case on this is rough. I wonder when we will see a SaaS model in pinball.

10
#3046 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

There's a simple reason why pinball doesn't have any of this advanced technology.
It's not because it isn't possible. It's because everyone capable of doing it already have six figure jobs at SpaceX, Apple, Tesla, NASA, Lockheed Martin or (insert giant tech corp here).

I think that is really dismissive of some of the very smart engineers that work at Stern for example.

Anything is solvable with money and man power, especially at the level pinball is at. A more accurate reason in my opinion is there is no business case or return on some of these ideas.

When JJP bailed on the pirates mech, that was an engineering failure due to lack of experience/smarts. They said so.

When Stern isn't putting video camera ball tracking in games, that's business smarts.

1 week later
10
#3280 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I think people spend too much time thinking and talking about Jpop.

And not enough time on the other people there. There’s a ton of real experience and talent in the game making department not named John.

I get what you are saying and agree to some extent, but if an investment firm hired Bernie Madoff, that would overshadow anything else and be a lot of what people want to talk about.

3 weeks later
#3640 4 years ago

I'm here because LTG told me there was free shit.

2 weeks later
#3805 4 years ago

Maybe DR has online components and they don't want to deal with a European data center and GDPR? That's 100% a guess, but something I run into at work all the time. I can't make certain product offerings in the UK/Europe until it makes business sense for me to spin up environments there.

Privacy laws have made it too restrictive for me to spread the goodness internationally.

1 week later
#3939 4 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Stay out of it Ben. I consider your comment to be providing legal advice without a license.

Come on, you know that isn't true.

4 months later
#5338 4 years ago
Quoted from Jazman:

They've promised so much, bashed on everyone else for doing it wrong, and claimed they could deliver a Ferrari in a fraction of the time for the price of a Yugo. I expect them to deliver nothing less or they might as well stay home...
My 2 cents...
Jaz

Don't forget every playfield will be hit with a hammer, and if it dents it's no good.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#5436 4 years ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Imagine if they Do sell RAZA and one or two other initial titles for lets say, $4,495 (as a "release special").... just to show they mean business, and to get some examples of their proud creations out in the world, more rapidly... ?

Let's do a quick back of the napkin business case with those kind of numbers.

Assume that they've come up with some crazy cheap unit cost, including assembly labor and all the below the line numbers, and that unit cost to deeproot is $1500. Let's say they sell them at $4500 just to make it easy. That gives them $3k margin per unit.

If Robert's claims of $750k a month are correct, and we pretend they've only been in business for the first 10 months of 2019, ignoring all the time before, that's $7.5M in cost. At a fantastic $3k margin, they would have to sell 2500 games to break even on 2019 alone. If you add in all the time they've spent before 2019......

Do I think they've actually gotten unit cost down to something like $1500? Probably not.

#5676 4 years ago

Super curious why this metal cutout was necessary. Im guessing choosing to have the ball return here kept hitting the sling?

image-15 (resized).pngimage-15 (resized).png
1 week later
#6606 4 years ago

EDIT: removed the info from this post so it doesn't confuse anyone.

#6608 4 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

That's the deeproot fund. It's a different LLC than the deeproot pinball company. It's unclear how Deeproot pinball is operating, whether it has access to monies from the sales of equity in the deeproot fund.
https://the575.com/
Says the fund is backed by life insurance policies "and affiliates". No idea if a pinball machine company is considered an affiliate.

Ok so completely different entity. I edited my above post so my questions wouldn't confuse anyone.

1 week later
#6821 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Several years ago, a rookie manufacturing company called Jersey Jack came out with their first prototype, a machine called Wizard of Oz.
Pinside went hysterical about weak flippers and it was the end of the world.
.
Déjà fucking vu

I hope it's not complete deja vu , because JJPs weak flippers were probably just the herald for some major engineering blunders under the hood there in the beginning. Remember when their first engineer botched the design of their light system?

Quoted from vicjw66:

But most important was that JJP still hasn’t figured out how to make snappy flippers.

Also this. I don't know what it is about JJP flippers but they feel "off".

2 weeks later
#6934 4 years ago

An all day launch event for pinball machines?

That seems excessive.

1 month later
#7433 4 years ago

Don't forget, not only are they showing games, but they've said they have revolutionary manufacturing techniques........

Wasn't it "quad assembly" or something? Also playfield you can hit with a sledgehammer.

1 month later
#8022 4 years ago

Glad deeproot decided to cancel, it was the right thing to do.

2 weeks later
#8164 3 years ago

I don't know if that was a joke or not, if you follow their employees on linked in you can see several points in time where more than 1 person indicated their job ended.

#8212 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Somebody needs to shoot that documentary.
Would crush the Tiger King.

Not a chance.

Nobody in pinball is that interesting.

#8258 3 years ago

At this point don't they legally owe some people games? Their agreement kept people from going after JPop for their money.

2 months later
#8609 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I hope Deep Root is ramping up what they are planning to do when that old photo that's been floating around for years of Barry O in full blackface/pimp costume starts circulating a little more.
Yikes!

I just saw that the other day for the first time. Yikes.

#8616 3 years ago
Quoted from chad:

Did Barry really throw on the black face?

Yes. I saw the picture myself a few days ago for the first time.

4 weeks later
#8758 3 years ago
Quoted from WODKA:

They sure can.. Giving people the chance to see and play a new game on a show is so much better than just releasing it on the web.

Is that true though? Stern is having no problem selling TMNT without all the in-person showings.

1 month later
12
#9100 3 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

JJP-Stern-Deeproot....its going to be a crowded cage match of new games this September! Someone please photoshop Uncle Gary diving off the ropes and bodyslamming Jack, while Robert has a folding chair in his hand attempting to finish the other two off. pleeeease?

Robert is the guy outside the arena selling homemade shirts right now. He hasn't entered the main event yet.

#9108 3 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

You mean outside Saying he’s going to Make shirts lol.

Haha. I'm giving him the benefit of all the money he has sunk into it. He has at least worked really hard, but as Clark Griswold's father in law says, "So do washing machines."

I honestly hope what they put out after RAZA is cool and successful. I'm super skeptical though for obvious reasons.

#9120 3 years ago

Gonna have an uphill battle to beat the stern pin coming out next week.

#9349 3 years ago

Is that a picture of the avengers game busting through deeproot's bottom line?

#9405 3 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

How do you artificially inflate the price?

What do you mean?

If the game would sell for $6k but it you want it to show more value for legal reasons you just MSRP it at $9k and all of a sudden that's the value.

13
#9563 3 years ago

Well I was just expecting a middle of the road first game, and could have seen that as cool.

But now after their latest post, you've set my expectations really high, so if 9/22 doesn't arrive with 5 games, some exponential savings on manufacturing, playfields that won't mar with a sledgehammer hit, games that play better than all Sterns, and all of that for under $6k then all the chest pounding was for naught.

#9579 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Yes, deeproot is just sitting on 15+ million dollars worth of pinballs just waiting in a giant warehouse for that reveal date.

It's a super genius idea for a manufacturing company. Even deeproot wouldn't make this mistake.

#9587 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Robert doesn't realize his hubris is what is driving 90% of the negative commentary in this thread.
Of course he can shut everyone up and delivery on his own hype, but there's a reason why we're all jaded.

I've never met him but I'd like to one day. Despite my pokes at deeproot, he is clearly smart to have gotten where he is and probably knows exactly what he is posting and what reaction it'll get. "It's a bold strategy Cotton."

1 week later
#10028 3 years ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

Do you know what a box of lights is? Because I feel like we are about to see 7 of them... plus one complete game

I wonder if octo manufacturing means they will attempt to build 8 different titles at once, maybe on order.

#10160 3 years ago
Quoted from Pahuffman:

Not a very funny one. Wasted a lot of people's time.

Aw come on, I LOL'd. It was the best kind of prank, nobody gets hurt.

#10229 3 years ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

Pinside is the first and only form of social media I’ve been on .Talk about baptism by fire !

Welcome to the jungle, we got fun and games..... Crap, that's a different company.

18
#10268 3 years ago

Presenting the message in their original format:

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
12
#10768 3 years ago

The entire cabinet design is tragic.

Amazing that they would waste engineering time on garbage like the new back box and the lock down bar.

19
#10888 3 years ago

I single handedly built Spaceballs in less time than that, and I took a long time as far as homebrew goes.

There are other great homebrew games that were done way faster.

#10891 3 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I still hope they make it. I‘d order it the way it is for Pro money.
If you actually get one and the company fails you‘re stinking filthy rich.

By what logic? If homepin went out of business do you think thunderbirds would be worth more? No way, it's still a trash game.

If you are looking for that big bang bar effect a second time, it ain't happening here.

#10912 3 years ago
Quoted from mbwalker:

Best of both:
(I do wish them success tho).
[quoted image]

Someone should add the names to the bottom area of the fish tank.

#11004 3 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Hmm...now I need to decide between Food Truck and Punny Factory. Time for a poll!
Also, those gas lift shocks do not have great longevity. In a couple years, you'll be using a broomstick to prop that thing up.

How long before the thing guillotines some fingers off.

Every piece of this screams inexperienced engineering.

#11114 3 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

What pinball people say: They want: "Innovation".

What they say when it's offered to them: "No. Not like that, more like the way things have always been. That kind of innovation."

Not all new ideas are good ideas. When people say they want "Innovation", I don't think they mean -any- new idea.

#11516 3 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

I'll drop this gem again...

The first 80% of a project is 20% of the work, and the last 20% is 80% of the work.

#11668 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Imagine for a moment you are one of the reporters that attended. Six months or a year from now, Deeproot reaches out and offers you free airfare, hotel and travel expenses to return. Everything is solid but, you have to sign another NDA.
What do you do? And how would Deeproot go about finding credible replacements.

Wouldn't any reporter love to get the scoop? Especially if the scoop came with a free trip?

#11787 3 years ago

Another major problem with designing every part custom is repairs down the line.

With these weird setups you are locked into their specific part. Need a replacement lock down bar? Better hope deeproot is selling them and for a reasonable price.

#11860 3 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

While this is true the opposite is much more likely. For every one of these game changers that are embraced, there are dozens and dozens of innovations that never make it out of the patent office. Only a small percentage even make it through Ron Popeil's front door let alone be embraced by the public at large.

100%

If you think you have something super game changing, but it's not selling, maybe you don't have what you think you had.

Just constantly saying "this is the most innovative best thing ever" doesn't make it true even if the creator believes it.

10
#11923 3 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

In what world is Robert living in that he thought it was prudent to make a social media post slamming the competitors playfields, when he knew his "hammer proof" coating looks horrible? How do you smugly make a social media post sticking your finger in Stern's eye and calling out Dankburg, when you know you have ZERO manufacturing capability? How about going on a podcast and lambasting the reliability of Stern machines, when his own machine couldn't even be flipped at his big reveal?
These are the management traits of a mental midget, which at a minimum should make most people second guess their investment in those 575 funds. Something just doesn't seem right here. There has to be a bit more back story about why Robert has such an axe to grind with Stern Pinball, the successful company who actually produces pinball machines.

Dunning–Kruger effect explains it pretty well I think.

19
#12147 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I just want something to eat.
Samsung Family Hub Refrigerator.
1. See inside your refrigerator from anywhere, shop for groceries, search for recipes and preheat your oven – all from the Family Hub™
2. Stream your favorite music apps on the Family Hub™ and enjoy premium speaker-quality listening
3. Mirror shows, movies, or live sports from your Samsung TV or phone on the Family Hub™
[quoted image]

Those screens in refrigerators make me laugh. Such a waste of money.

#12593 3 years ago
Quoted from tacshose:

The only Deeproot game I’m interested in is if they took over Alien production. RAZA looks like untested shit.

I'm guessing deeproot doesn't even begin to know what things like MTBF are for their new "inventions".

2 weeks later
#12910 3 years ago

That looks like a great christmas party for a company that hadn't sold anything yet and still won't for at least 2 years after that.

4 weeks later
19
#13208 3 years ago

Are they for real doing this in the middle of the pandemics highest numbers?

This is an absolute dumb fucking decision.

My advice: anyone who is left should jump off this ship now before it fully sinks.

#13373 3 years ago

After watching the stream, the pinbar is definitely a waste of engineering hours.

The only thing I really thought was neat about the game was the different ways the ramp could go. I thought that was cool.

Did the comet wheel have the same stickers on it as in comet? They looked like it.

13
#13651 3 years ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

I can't imagine trying to create a robust system, instead of just offloading the service to a third party with some simple API calls.

Why would someone like Stern rely on a third party to do something as simple as online scores? I would definitely do this in house. Especially because they are already going to set up infrastructure for update distribution. Score tracker would be a couple azure functions and call it a day.

I think more people than Ben should be sour on JPop. JPop doesn't belong in pinball anymore. The chain of events he caused ruined some big things for people. He is also a terrible worker and designer.

#13654 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Couple of Azure calls and call it a day? Ha. We will see what Stern cooks up for online features but if that is their approach it will be hot garbage.

I'm obviously simplifying, but the API that someone mentioned is simply some endpoints. Stern already has a website with auth that they can surface the data in. So yeah, it's not -that- hard.

Azure infrastructure/devops is a large part of my career, and I'm really good at it, so I might know a little about it.

The point of my post was that Stern wouldn't go to a third party for this, they'd just do it in house. Regardless of how hard or easy it is.

#13673 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Maybe you should talk to Stern about some contract work. I don’t think they have the ability to pull off great networking and cloud features in house. They haven’t even updated the menu UI to LCD after all these years.

I'm honored to call some of them personal friends, and they are capable. Nobody has to take my word for it though, it'll play itself out over the next year or so.

#13724 3 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

API is sort of easier. But what about the web portal to make the data useful? Or the phone app for two platforms? Now it’s a full time job for multiple people.
I also do this for a living and it’s typical of a backend only guy to say “oh that’s easy” then six months later after going through the complicated auth, security, input validation, rate limiting and protocol changes come back and say “oh maybe it’s more than opening a port on the firewall.”

Yes, those people are idiots. I was once hiring to fill a role i needed for a super complex system and the guy told me he could do it with a laptop and a weekend. He did not get hired.

If we want to privately chat about my resume, I'd be happy to convince you.

The original point was Stern will do this in house, not farm it out to someone like Scorbit.

1 week later
#13839 3 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Were they fake? Or just poorly run? I didn't follow that saga too closely.

Poorly run to the extreme.

20
#13952 3 years ago

Do not send these people any money, and definitely don't show them your homebrew designs.

#14311 3 years ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Not sure anyone has spoken about this but people doing homebrew now have a way to get em manufactured by DR. I understand this company has a lot of proving to do (and I mean a LOT) but what a great idea. Apparently a whitewood and 25 people wiling to preorder and they'll take it on. That dude with the Viking pinball should look into this. That's a really nice game.
https://deeprootpinball.com/community/homebrew

And have deeproot/jpop steal my work and call it theirs? Pass.

#14319 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

How is that stealing?

What TreyBo said. Not only does Jpop have a proven history of that, but look at deeproot all doing it with things like the pinpod. That's just a rebranded product they called their innovation.

You might also not be considering the very large gap between a homebrew machine and a production machine. Is the gap closable? Sure. For 25 games though, not a freaking chance.

14
#14642 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballwil:

Yeah but that thing looks like a homebrew game.
Deeproot is more like wms.

What drugs are you on? Deeproot being like Williams is the funniest thing I'll hear this week.

#14657 3 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

The drug comment was unnecessary. I agree with him. What deeproot is trying to accomplish is like W/B 2.0, which is what I like about RAZA and why I ordered one.

Hey it's your money, if you want to ignore all the red flags, be my guest.

What exactly is Bally/Williams 2.0?

Are you expecting a generational bump in hardware? A generational bump in gameplay experience?

Edited to add: I sincerely hope you do not get screwed.

#14882 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

The legalities and bad PR aside, to me the blanket indemnity also means they have zero confidence in their product.

Honest question because I'm not a lawyer, does blanket indemnity keep them from being liable if a game burns someone's house down?

1 week later
#15090 3 years ago

I'm gonna go ahead and guess less than 5 games out by end of January.

Lead times for parts are crazy right now. In January They will only be able to build machines they already have parts for.

#15234 3 years ago
Quoted from spinal:

The quad (octo) manufacturing system is top secret and would be immediately stolen and implemented by competitors if seen. It’s innovative and much more efficient than existing methods and this is why you can count on games being out the door, on schedule, 3 maybe 5 weeks from now. It’s a no-brainer. Plus RM gave his word to those laying down deposits.

Was this sarcasm?

Quoted from greenhornet:

"the reason i bounce around is because the people ive been with havent been able to produce a pinball game. so i was with deeproot for two years .. i did three really awesome games for them, but i never had an engineer the entire time. i just couldnt make any more progress .. no mechanisms, no anything .. i just got so frustrated .. i just wanted to go some place where i could get a game done."

Having no engineers, or no good engineers, was pretty obvious by what they've shown so far.

#15246 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

There was a past interview with Robert saying one of his biggest challenges was hiring people to work in San Antonio.

I'm reminded of the stories of when American Pinball started and they brought in Joe Balcer, and how it benefited that he knew so many people in Chicago that he could call on.

It's amazing with all the money they have spent, they don't seem to have spent it where it matters. They hired a bunch of artists and designers, with no real staffing around infrastructure, devops, engineering, etc...

I can't wait to see how their cloud linked services pan out. If they can't find a good mechanical engineer, they certainly didn't find a cloud architect.

#15282 3 years ago

Just a reminder to please mark images like that NSFW.

1 month later
#15985 3 years ago

Don't forget this gem.

Quoted from deeproot:

You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.
—dT

1 week later
#16147 3 years ago

Robert must really enjoy shooting himself in the foot. He couldn't lead a company through a one way tunnel.

38
#16437 3 years ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Did you buy one ?
Point is nobody should care , unless they are owed a game,or they they preordered.

I think you are looking for the pre-order thread then. This is the thread where we talk about the reality of the situation.

#16488 3 years ago

If I wanted to throw money away I'd have put a down payment on a Raza.

No bets from me, because I honestly hope you get your games and not get screwed. I think they will fail, but I'd also be happy to be wrong.

#16549 3 years ago
Quoted from SLCpunk2113:

I wouldn’t mind a touch screen service menu just put it inside the coin door. Problem solved.

What problem is that solving though? Does it make the machine earn more money? Does it increase the fun factor of the machine? Does it increase the net revenue on each widget?

Or does it create more problems than it solves? Failure modes increase, repair costs increase, customer support costs increase. Engineering/coding spends more hours on non-core features.

#16696 3 years ago

That presentation is hilarious, and something I have seen several times before from people who talk like they know what they are doing but can't actually deliver.

Remember, the first 80% of a project is only 20% of the work. The last 20% of a project is 80% of the work.

19
#16917 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Thanks Levi. I was confusing a lockbar with a lockdown bar.
Now I'm confused why they thought sourcing a vendor for a lockbar was significant enough to even mention. I guess having a Home Depot account is bragging at this stage.

Imagine Deeproot's surprise when 100 lock bars show up instead of lockdown bars.

"No wonder I got them so cheap".

#17093 2 years ago

So how many days has it been since they took money?

12
#17204 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I'm reminded of when Heighway was working on their "Secret" project (which turned out to be the Bacardi game) and Pinball News published an update with sections blurred out. That's a way of hiding a secret.
Right now, with no photos shown of the "quad manufacturing", I'm left with the memory of Robert waving his hands around in an empty room that he showed the VIPs and until shown otherwise that space is still an empty room.

Any reasonable person/company would be proud to show their setup if it existed. What a way to quiet all the detractors down.

2 weeks later
28
#17763 2 years ago

Anyone that even remotely deals with supply chains right now knows there is no way a brand new company is going to get all the parts for even 50 machines by the end of this year, with the current situation of things.

You know what would probably help deeproot? If Robert hadn't run his mouth for the past few years, I'm guessing it would be easier to source these parts. It's a small industry.

#17768 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

A couple weeks ago, Trek bikes went from telling people August 2022 delivery on ordered bikes to "we are no longer taking preorders". And even better, most of the dealers are requiring 100% payment up front to secure the order.

It's the same story in a lot of industries. New boats are completely out of stock for the foreseeable future. Appliances are starting to see 6-12 month waits. Lumber prices are shooting up.

It's a bad year to be making a new product with as many parts as a pinball machine has.

1 week later
#17897 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Where do they go to bathroom?

Well see, they've revolutionized that too....

1 week later
#18110 2 years ago

LOL, you guys are on point this morning.

#18182 2 years ago
Quoted from Scandell:

Actually does sound like a decent podcast conversation. Hahaha

While I think I would really enjoy hearing the dirt, I'm sure you know the risks of getting more involved just to satiate the crowd's desire for entertainment.

15
#18253 2 years ago
Quoted from BladesOfSteel:

Not to feed the flames and give vindication to some of the hyperbole spewed so far by some - as a Xtra pre-order paid in full (I'm dumb), I'm %100 going to take the refund option next week unless shipping is immanent. I'll buy a TMNT and something else and enjoy the game of pinball I grew up with without the risk.

I think you are making a smart move. A pinball company's first game is typically not something that will stand the test of time or be super valuable. For the money you can get a game that you know is going to work, have spare parts, and is fun to play.

1 week later
10
#18585 2 years ago

At this point can we finally shun JPop forever?

He has no business being involved in anything pinball related. He is a terrible hack, and I know 30 people not working in the industry that can design and build a better game than him.

1 week later
#18766 2 years ago
Quoted from elZilcho:I recommend deeproot to hire this bookkeeper guy,
according to his records an expert in supressive fire from the accounting office.[quoted image]

Probably still pretty safe, deeproot has trouble hitting targets in general.

4 weeks later
#19254 2 years ago

I'm surprised to hear myself say this, but I think deeproot should have taken the large art/dev studio they built and go full steam into something like developing a P3 game. They probably still could. Even if that's not a long term thing, it at least gets them over the manufacturing hurdle for a bit.

#19261 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's a great idea. The P3 guys have been way too successful in churning out games for their platform, what they need to do is get in bed with Deep Root and have everything crash to a grinding, costly halt.

Haha, great point.

1 week later
#19592 2 years ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Are those pvc covered things in the picture their first prototype of the pinbox or what ever they called the big wooden crate they eventually developed

They didn't develop the pinbox/pinpod, it's an existing product that is actually called Creosnap.

#19644 2 years ago

LCDs are awesome and, in my opinion, required today.

DMD art is a cop-out these days. Make the investment and make me some badass LCD animations and stuff.

Pretty sure you can get Unity or Godot to run on a potato these days, and SoCs made for mobile devices can be used pretty cheaply. So far nobody has built a control system that is close to the level of Spike 2.

#19705 2 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

* Read basic electrical schematics
OMG Good luck with finding an assembly worker that can read schematics. If they don't have test rigs already built to test their own hardware and wiring these are never getting built (or an electrical engineer's job is going to be doing nothing but QC checks while games are being built).

I was going to post the same thing. This job spec is laughable for hiring line workers.

#19751 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Experience with micro controls e.g. Arm Cortex or ATmega328 processors"
Um, you mean MICROCONTROLLERS?
ARM is an acronym that should be all caps = "Advanced RISC Machine" (RISC = Reduced Instruction Set Computer)
ATmega328 so it's running a FREEKING ARDUINO?
Christ these guys are idiots.

That's even funnier than the line workers posting. Maybe they can get some people who just know how to combine google schematics like JJP did with WoZ and the lights. See how that turns out.

Hell JJP is still promoting the hell out of their "HOT BAR" of leds or whatever they call it. Like kids in middle school don't play with serial LEDs and diffusers....

1 week later
17
#20646 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Buckle in boys! Somebody is gonna be producing those games

Why would any other company touch these games, when they could be manufacturing games that actually sell and play well.

Most companies actually like making money, not just burning it and yelling at the wall how cool they are.

#20866 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Contracting out production is the only logical way to move forward. I know of multiple groups that are getting ready to join in the market frenzy. They are aware of the many past failures, & the few survivors. No one at Deep Root has reached out to me personally. At this time I fully believe the groups I am talking with are not Deep Root contractors. But if one is they are keeping it super secret, & I firmly believe it very unlikely since it will be next year before they likely produce pinball machines.

Contracting is tough, for a lot of reasons, but especially when you can't provide a steady stream of work to the contracting company.

My experiences in the past have also been that they have high labor turnover rates, which means new people are constantly having to be trained and are making fresh mistakes over and over again.

Whenever I've done contract negotiations with contracting companies, they've always wanted me to guarantee a minimum amount of work per time period (week, month, etc..). Most contractors have also wanted me to pay for a manager per X number of employees as well.

They typically also want you to supply all the parts for assembly in advance of the work.

My guess is deeproot is having a lot of trouble getting the factories that make pinball assemblies to fit them into the schedule. If you were a factory owner with established contracts with Stern, JJP, AP, and Spooky filling up your schedule, the new guy on the block gets to wait for a long time. Exponentially harder if you've talked shit the entire time and the established companies tell the factories not to service your orders.

"Pinball mafia" in Chicago isn't just some random thing someone made up. There's personal connections and loyalties there. The wall to keep deeproot out was built when Robert talked endless trash.

#21045 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

but has to be IP related.

That was my uneducated guess as well. I haven't seen the RAZA playfield art in a while, so my memory may be fuzzy, but didn't they have all kind of stolen assets on that game? I might be misremembering but didn't they have pictures of like Dracula and other stuff on there? Was that BHZA?

#21087 2 years ago

I really hope none of those employees got screwed over. That would be one of the real tragedies of this whole thing.

1 week later
13
#21839 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Even a single person or tiny group could move forward & actually build RAZA from the 1 or more working production or proto type pins. Reverse engineering, Ben or even I & others could do that. Everything could be found even with Covid if you pay your suppliers & contractors. I got nothing in the works with my personal bankruptcy due to my retirement & the pinball business not making any money over the years. But that is one area I would enter if I had the money & business support to focus on pinball builds or parts production.
Look at Magic Girl games finally getting fixed so they are playable. Not a fancy box of light art package. So if you have someone to finally finish & polish the code it is possible. I do not think another big pinball company would buy the assets unless to make sure no one else could enter the market.

The best thing anyone could do with JPop's work is take it out back and burn it and make sure his stink goes away from pinball forever.

#22165 2 years ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Wouldn’t First Name, Last Name, and Email Address count as ‘PII’ (Personally Identifiable Information)?

It is a very mild amount of PII. Still enough to positively identify someone because of the email address, but mostly benign and not enough to trigger credit monitoring or anything.

#22169 2 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I am going with RM planned to but was never really capable of.
Typical finance guy that thinks he can run a business just becuase he made a lot of money evaluating other businesses

I think RM definitely started out this way, but I also think there was a point in time where RM admitted to himself things couldn't be saved. I believe that with JPOP/Zidware too.

All the lying and fake shit after that point is intentional and malicious.

1 week later
26
#22730 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

I thought the empty cabinets would of been a standard design with out the pinbar which was not a design yet.

For someone who seems to want to be involved with this so bad, you also seem to be missing a lot of the details that would make normal people run away.

Anyone who picks up the deeproot or jpop remnants deserves what is coming to them at this point. There's been enough warnings and red flags that people would have to be absolute morons to get involved with them in any way.

16
#22809 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Going to step back from this thread. The personal attacks towards my trying to help out groups wanting to actually produce new pinball machines is not worth it here. Tired of the drinking, drugs, & paint fume crap insult crap on this site towards me. Same with I must be no expert on anything towards pinball.
Focus my time on actually helping others have more pinball products or games for sale. Never thought I would consider some of these posts a sewer, but it seems that way to me! So I will get back to enjoying playing pinball on location. I work with operators & owners keeping their games going. Likely I will be involved with some interesting pinball projects in 2022.
Even some pinball podcasts do not get their info correct. I will leave that one for people that know to see what was not said.

Yeah man, it's everyone else's fault..... or rather deeproot is extremely toxic and we all are telling you not to even try with them.

Do what you want, but don't expect anything other than a bunch of directed anger when you mention things like wanting to help deeproot or jpop. Definitely don't expect a bunch of people to cheer you on in that endeavor.

If you aren't talking about deeproot, another topic is probably a better choice for your posts.

#22879 2 years ago

Wow. This is way more nefarious than I expected. What a crook.

#22938 2 years ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

I saw there is a SEC document against Deeproot, I guess it's possible that the defendants are found not guilty? If so, is it possible that RAZA's still get made, and we might see them on location later this year?

Yeah the SEC is probably just goofing off and having a laugh.

I really hope you aren't serious.

11
#23572 2 years ago
Quoted from Rascal_H:

Stop trying to diagnose the guy. Just a dipshit criminal.

This! RM is just another greedy financial loser that is so self-centered he doesn't give a shit about anyone else.

35
#23780 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Anybody in the market for a signed JPOP magic girl proto drawing?
No?
I’ll make you a good deal!
No?
Okay…
[quoted image]

I love how he signed someone else's artwork like it was his.

Shows everyone who he really is.

34
#24509 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Yes JPOP can still be managed, & will likely move on to more pinball work. He should be a freelance pinball dreamer, & designer. But that is all, he needs a team to get games built.

Anyone who works with JPop deserves every ounce of hate and aggression they get. He is a terrible pinball designer, if you think differently you are delusional.

There are a dozen people in homebrew that blow JPops skills out of the water. Hire one of them, not some old loser who has never done anything successful in his life.

23
#24694 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Got your pin working tonight.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Pinball/CirqusVoltaire
JPOP can have a bad rap, but he is known in the industry & inducted along with others. Another reason many companies continue to hire him. Deeproot was the latest. & unlikely the last.
I enjoy his games except for Star Wars Episode 1. The haters here probably blame him for WMS getting out of the pin & into the slot business.

Well, you've succeeded in lumping yourself in with JPop. Now I wouldn't touch anything you are involved in either because you clearly make horrible decisions.

48
#24963 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Kind of funny how Mr Big mouth fell into river of shit. How ironic.

Ironic? This was expected.

Especially when he was bragging about his monthly expenses, that money just doesn't appear out of thin air. I would like to think anyone who has been responsible for a multi-million dollar budget saw the writing on the wall about where that money was coming from.

People who brag about how rich and awesome they are usually are some of the worst people. Robert deserves every bit of trouble he gets in, plus a lot more.

I have to say I really feel for the employees in this.

If you are an employee that got shit on by deeproot, and you have some programming skills in c#, typescript, or others, drop me a private message and we can chat. I've got some of those positions open including an engineering manager position. We are very profitable, so we pay well, and it's an amazing place to work.

#25013 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I just like to stir the pot and put off studying for my PE exam

Good luck! I did the EIT and then went into a field without a PE exam, so I never got to take it.

1 month later
#26276 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Kaneda is reporting this sign has now been stolen from the Deeproot parking lot.
I don't know why but that pleases me. ....a lot.
[quoted image]

That's pretty funny, I hope it randomly turns up every once in a while.

4 weeks later
#26875 2 years ago

Wow I just read the slack posts. If those are real Robert is an absolute piece of trash. I feel bad for anyone that had to endure that kind of employer.

#26991 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Trust me, Jpop has paid a price and continues paying

Thanks for putting a huge smile on my face.

2 weeks later
#27250 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

interested in entering the hot market

Feels like people trying to cash in on the "hot pinball market" are waving a pretty big red flag.

So far I think we've seen two distinct angles. One angle is some belief there is a pinball gold mine to be had and another angle is the popularity angle, where people want to run a pinball company or be in charge of design because they want to be "celebrities".

#27278 2 years ago

The pinbar is a non-starter for a host of reasons. I've got a bridge to sell any investor that thinks the pinbar is a good idea.

1 week later
#27441 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Blueberry Inc might be the next company Robert bankrupts with all these pacer charges I'm incurring!

I was racking the charges up with the Skit-B cases, I feel you.

Bring on the free pacer! My job deals in data, and I'm becoming very familiar with FOIA.

11
#27515 2 years ago

If you do choose to listen in, please do not do anything to disrupt this case. No funny stuff, no speaking, no rude names. It is a privilege they can easily take away.

1 week later
#27738 2 years ago
Quoted from Triplecdad:

Original themes do not sell? Tell that to the folks at CGC quick before they sell out of yet another reproduction of an original theme.

That's not the same thing.

Original theme games are still happening. Haggis released Celts, AP did Oktoberfest, JJP did Dialed In, etc..

Ben is right though, original themes today just don't sell the same numbers that licensed themes do. I doesn't mean original themes suck, it just means large manufacturers like Stern don't get enough ROI off of them. Smaller outfits can actually take advantage of the lower demand on originals to cut their teeth on the first few titles.

#27834 2 years ago

My assumption is Robert was a pretty crappy boss that relied on intimidation and emotional abuse to get his way. That kind of shit wears on a person like an abused puppy and takes a real long time to mentally recover from.

2 months later
#29485 1 year ago
Quoted from frobozz:

It will be especially fun if some Pinside homebrewer buys the big sander and then asks an electrician to put power in their garage for it. 105A of 480 3 phase![quoted image]

I called the power company to ask about 480v 3 phase for an industrial robotic arm in my home shop and they said no, lol.

1 month later
#30846 1 year ago
Quoted from gdonovan:Far more interesting than the Haggis train wreck.

What's going on with Haggis?

#30883 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Hear that P3? Opportunity knocks!!

And Knocks. And Knocks. And Knocks. And Knocks.

Maybe the 50th time will pan out.

#30887 1 year ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

You never know. The pinball world is very small. Not like I have been hiding from anyone the last 15 years of doing parts production.

I truly do wish you luck, if persistence alone achieved your goal, you'd already have it.

1 week later
#30991 1 year ago

Wow, cornelius popped up again. Seems like that dude never learns huh.

9 months later
#32644 1 year ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Ben the waters are still warm, & the pool of new manufacturers keep on coming out of the woods. All the small pinball manufacturers around the world getting into the pool. You just need to be ready to burn a shitload of cash. Surprised no one is talking about Mirco getting into the cabinet business in Europe. You would guess he is looking into expanding with the European manufacturers. Chris Turner would likely know in Texas, where Deeproot Pinball was thinking of getting cabinets & playfields done. Like I keep dropping hints over the years the 2 parties were not up North for west to east that I was dealing with in the USA.
Those parties still might be thinking of testing the waters since the selling price of new games still has not hit the ceiling yet, & continue to drive up all old pinball games in price. Better than the stock market over the last 25 years. Pinball is super hot in the home market, & still cold on location. Very few operators buying multiple new games in my region, mostly just one from the pool of major pinball manufacturers.

Lol that you think you have actual insider information. Classic.

#32707 12 months ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Ninja what? EGLH9E? They’ve failed the first test…legible font.

Ninja Eclitse, very modern.

I was going to say they have an uphill battle trying to build on the ruins of deeproot, but this video says "don't worry, we can make this bad on our own".

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