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Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (6 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by PinMonk (5 years ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (4 years ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (4 years ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (4 years ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (4 years ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (4 years ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (4 years ago)

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Quoted from deeprootmatt:
So i want to take a minute here to give my own personal account and experience working with Jpop. I figure a sort of third party opinion from someone who has been working closely with him over the last 1.5 years might be of interest. Again, this is my own personal opinion.
I will also preface this message with this: I get it. He screwed up. A lot of people here are upset. And i completely understand that. I will continue to stay out of that as much as i can and focus on what I can do: doing my part in bringing about success for deeproot.
John has been, and continues to be a great friend. He is always able to provide valuable insight into whatever aspect I am working on. The amazing conversations we have had are numerous, and his passion for pinball is absolutely contagious. I have now been brought into the pinball world i never knew existed.. and its amazing! I have learned more over the last 1.5 years than I could have ever imagined and John has had a big part in that. So I wanted to take this moment to share this with you guys, and take it as you will.
Also, I hate to leave out the other amazing people I get to work with as John is just one of MANY people at deeproot. All of us here are REALLY excited for what is to come, and it is coming!

Thanks for the post and personal insights!

I'm fairly new to this community, so I don't have the possible personal issues towards John that many have, and I can't imagine the complexity of that at all for those people. I can only say he designed some of my favorite games when I was a teenager, and I anxiously await seeing what comes from Deeproot. I just kinda wish.....it would happen, at some point.

Good luck to ya, and please do forward good vibes to John for me!

Quoted from frankmac:
[quoted image]

I'd like to say and feel that I'm excited, but this feels like a worse and longer tease than trying to date an Amish woman.

I guess at least the pastries would turn out well in the end.

Quoted from Extraballz:
Not if you meet her during Rumspringa.

Oooh damn, good point! Says the man....possibly with experience? (Rushes to the Amish romance section at Walmart to brush up!)

I really hope this deeproot stuff pays off soon. Now I can empathize with all of the long year long waits people have had with game unveils over the past few years.

Robert seems to have so much swagger, and so little sense.

Last time I saw this much weird trolling by a businessman was in the Todd Tuckey book deal thread........

Quoted from greenhornet:
the other day some of you were trying to tell the deeproot story through the use of proverbs. is that even possible?
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Learn to walk before you run.
Don’t count your chickens before they hatch.
Don’t bite off more than you can chew.
Too many cooks spoil the broth.
A leopard doesn’t change its spots.
You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Discretion is the better part of valor.
Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Let sleeping dogs lie.
The show must go on.
Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Better late than never.
Every dog has his day.
Good things come to those who wait.
It’s not over till it’s over.
You can’t win them all.
Get out while the getting is good.
Half a loaf is better than none.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
[quoted image]

"Half a loaf is better than none."

Tell that to Meatloaf. He could lose a few....

Quoted from OnTheSnap:
First video posted on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/TexasPinball/videos/1556137674527761/

Interesting. For some reason those leds look so uniform, almost like they're more groups than individual leds? It looks really, really fluid, light animation wise.

There are several videos in that facebook link, by the way!

Quoted from Gotfrogs:
I got to play RAZA tonight and meet some of the Deeproot team. The display On the back box is really nice. I love the wide screen that goes completely across the width of the machine. I can’t wait to see the final product![quoted image][quoted image]

There seems to be a green hue/glow to the photos and video taken so far. Is it weird lighting, or are the greens this dominant so far?

Quoted from Gotfrogs:
The lighting in the room was very strange. Big metal halides overhead. The games looked much better in person.

Phew! Thank you for that clarification!

Quoted from wlf_:
Maybe in place of the current backglass will be a big big ol' screen? Animations seem important to what Deeproot is doing

This is what I was wondering also.

Why wouldn't the entire backglass be an led diode or filament?

Deeproot has been explicitly stating innovation comes first, so I'd have to think, hope so anyway, that these are the pinball bones onhand, and the innovations will be seen at the official unveiling just before production. Cabinet design, playfield hinges, playfield design itself, and hopefully something like an animated, ever shifting backglass, along with scoring and mode details.

One can hope, anyway.

If they can price things at or lower than Stern, I hope they can chip away some marketshare from them, as innovation, and value, is certainly not what Stern pushes towards natively. Deeproot has incessantly been stressing innovation, and value, even today Robert stated that, so hopefully this is literally the pinball foundation, and not the trimmings.

Quoted from ZMeny:
FIRST LOOK Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (RAZA) Gameplay
Subscribe Now to Flip N Out Pinball YouTube for exclusive pinball streams, reveals, series, entertainment, and more!

I have to hope this format is a placeholder. You can't view opponent's scores very well from afar, though not many games present that very well either.

Screenshot_20191115-190906_YouTube (resized).jpg

Quoted from o-din:
[quoted image]

How was the movie last night?

Quoted from o-din:
Amazing! I could definitely see myself owning a Ford Vs. Ferrari pinball machine, old man theme or not.

Glad you dug it! Definitely my must watch in the theater, till years' end!

Quoted from zaphX:
On one hand I’m surprised at the haterade in here, but on the other hand that’s expected out of Pinside.
Opinion fully formed after a few photos and some blurrycam videos. Pretty sad.
I had fun playing it. It’s a good game and I’d buy one.

I hope no one has a fully formed opinion, even yourself....as this is still in prototype form.

Thank you for getting more videos out there!

I am concerned at the level of success of getting the ball into the upper half of the playfield. That spinner seems a bit too low, much lower than the lamp from TOTAN.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
What’s most odd is how this whole thing is so decidedly un-deeproot.
We went from “five days of deep root” to this?
It’s a “soft reveal” on par with cosmic carnival or Team Mafia.
I was at least hoping for the game to descend from the sky, or at least for some pyro.

It does seem a conflict of interest. Having oodles of hype, and a soft launch in this manner. Whether Robert wants to state this is just a prototype, that doesn't mean this isn't a reveal of some sort, and to display a product seemingly with little to no direct presentation value or seminars, feels a bit off to me.

Quoted from PinMonk:
Yes, but you won't buy TWO. Coming from you, that says a lot.
My main complaint from the videos is the playfield needs a lot more accent coloring to offset the greens. WAY TOO MUCH GREEN. And using a neon green pantone color instead of screened green, with less green overall, but a much more intense green might make it pop in a more pleasant way. Right now it's like someone vomited green all over everything.

I agree with that color assessment a lot. The only other color that pops, currently anyway, are those hyper orange slings. But hey, it's oozy green martians AND zombies, right? I guess we need green puke all over the place.

I wonder if that green will glow in the dark.....

Quoted from zaphX:
Back at ya Iceman, hope to have a beer and talk/play pinball sometime soon w/ us being fellow Texans!
There have been plenty of games I didn't like this year, btw. I just don't take time to shit on them, or to tell others they are wrong for liking them.
I'm a maker of things myself, and I have great respect for all these pinball projects that make it to fruition, even if they don't speak to me personally. There are 10000 micro-decisions that go into a project of this scope. Many frustrations, disappointments, and successes get the thing from being an idea to a real product someone would buy and use.
When I evaluate a product, I try to remember the real humans on the other end of the wire who put their blood sweat and tears into making it. If that makes me overly positive, that's a character flaw I think I can live with.

But people having contrary opinions, doesn't diminish how you feel about the game. So....why care?

People played the game. They have opinions. That's great to read about!

People have looked at photos, and some scattered videos. That's great to read about!

I don't wish to look at life as being full of absolutes, this game is or will neither be all shit, or all rainbows.

And ultimately, time will tell where the arrow points towards.

Quoted from ausretrogamer:
Thanks to all that actually took time out from attending the event to film RAZA. The majority of us appreciate it.
One other thing, don’t crap on people that double flip. This is why so-called green pinball players feel intimated to play on location when other ‘better’ players are playing around them. They also never attend tournaments for the same reason. Just my 2c. Back to RAZA talk

I'm a poor player, and I intentionally try to never double flip. Occasionally it'll happen by reflex. I don't compete in tournaments because I suck. Why waste the platform, time of myself or others to wait on me, or money, if I suck?

Knowing when someone sucks at something, understanding our own limitations, is never intimidating. It's the opposite. Empowers me to make smarter choices, like what I said above.

Quoted from Concretehardt:
Your video went from good to great when the music blaring the same lyrics over and over again in the background stopped. The game looks fun to shoot, I wonder if it was suffering from the low voltage issues that are common at shows. Seems like a bit more flipper strength and the ramp shot would be makable.

Quoted from Potatoloco:
I felt the same in person as well about the music!
The flippers just weren’t great. They started to have a lot of give by Saturday night and the rubber was tearing off. Hopefully that’s more of an indication of it being played a lot rather than just bad parts.

Wasn't that a live band in the background for the first minute or so? That didn't sound like it was coming from the game. At least I hope not.........

Quoted from DS_Nadine:
So the most important things we got from this:
- There's a lot of people around here that are just plain dead inside get their only joy from bad mouthing everything in sight
- We now know for sure why Stern doesn't show prototypes... or stopped posting here... and why Deeproot just deactivated their account

Did they really just deactivate???

That's one thing that bugs me about all of these pin companies, transparency and direct information in situations like these.

Why isn't there any official press discussion, panel work, publicity handling, PR, trailers, etc?

This may be a prototype, but it IS....IS a game reveal, regardless. And that being said, the best spokesman for this game right now, on this board, in the wild, is Deeproot. And what have we seen officially, nothing? We get discreet phone videos from users. Jack and shit from Deeproot.

So glad Deeproot is continuing the bad Pinball trend of not leading with information first, prior to speculation, and innuendo being created by their target market.

Absurd.

Quoted from DS_Nadine:
The first footage we got, even before Zach, was a link to a Facebook post.
In that Facebook post was waritten that you'd have to click on the comments to see more video.
First pinside post: OH GREAT JUST WHEN THEY GET THE GLAS ON THE VIDEOS IS OVER, AREN'T THERE MORE?!?
We got an official announcement on Deeproots Website aqt the end of May, that was over and over posted here and even with the reveal now a big article on TWIP that says that this is a porototype and while the "game/ playfield" in itself is pretty much finished, the cab art is a placeholer.
First pinside post: CAB LOOKS SHIT!!!
Why bother to do any PR HERE?!?
They do PR. Stern does (a lot of) PR.
They just don't do it here anymore.

The TWIP article was nice. It was a START, after many months of indirect info leaks. It was a fairly light, readable q/a with some basic photos. Why not produce some videos, with all of that highend Hollywood level animation industry talk Robert has discussed, and showcase some features, gameplay, have John discuss things, coders, etc.?

Robert when he was on this site acted in two ways. Boastful and defensive. Now he's nonexistent. Great looks for the head of a company towards the MAIN discussion forum on the net of his target userbase.

If 1/10 people buy or use his product in this thread, awesome! If 9/10 have a critical diminishing attitude, so what? This is a creative product. That is the nature of creation, praise and criticism, which aren't mutually exclusive.

American Pinball has handled many critical threads and issues on here, and several key company people still routinely read, comment, and give info to correct matters, not ignore them.

How did American Pinball handle the criticism of Houdini in several forms, the monkey on the backglass, Oktoberfest animations, the rumor Balcer left? They did so with information, acceptance of user feedback, and grace. They never once ran off with their toys.

Good on ya American Pinball!

Quoted from razorsedge:
Could not have said it better. It isn't in their interests to need an account, to put any information out on pinside, why stand up for a troll fest?
They'll still look through it, I'm sure ... but there is only the Very rare post that is worth more than 2c.

.......because how many people deeply invested enough in pinball, buy games that cost $5K and up, and don't then decide to delve into this forum in some manner or form?

I did. And I did so months before buying my first game.

I work in a facility that employs several hundred people, over the course of three shifts, and I wager maybe 5 people out of 500, might have played a pinball game in the past year. Even more, I highly doubt 1 or more people, other than myself, bought a NIB game in the last five years.

So like it or not, Pinside IS the definitive starting block for bringing together, disseminating info, and speaking directly with it's core target market....and globally, in the flash of a second, all at once.

Quoted from daudioguy:
It was not coming from the game.
ddt

Thank you for clarifying David!

Side note, your lovely earworms of melodies are a good reason why POTC and the Hobbit are two games in my very small "collection". Your very indepth, candid stories, and often humor laden panels at shows, that exist on Youtube are also stellar.

Can't wait to hear your future work with Deeproot!

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:
It's the internet, people like to bitch and moan.
No different than any other forum for any other product/hobby

And just human beings in general. The net provides amplification for an otherwise less audible megaphone.

So if Pinside is a sewer to Robert then that makes us all.....?

RizzoTheRat (resized).jpg

Quoted from o-din:
Garbage collectors that might still buy his games.

It's almost as if he's trying deliberately to help people forget the issues they might have with JPop, by being the biggest, most unlikable and obnoxious nob he can be. Is he trying to win an award or something?

When he was on here, I thought things were rough, but this interview really makes it difficult for me to want to consider a game from his company, past a few bucks in.

Quoted from NoQuarters:
I always liked Chuck Conners as the Rifleman too. And Wagon Train was alright too. Wanted Dead or Alive with Steve McQueen ...
Gunsmoke would probably make the best pin though.

Saw the Mads, Frank Conniff and Trace Beaulieu riff this a couple years back. Not a bad flick on it's own.

Quoted from o-din:
So more than Bally/Williams did in 1995 with 9 different titles? Kinda hard to believe if you ask me.
That's almost 1000 a day boxed up and out the door.

Yeah, that sounds 2 to 3 times too high.

Quoted from cjmjmm2006:
You don't suck, your just not as good as the gals you hang with.

From seeming like eons ago, sorry for the late reply here.

Haha, I do! I hope they can continually beat me, then point back, and tell anyone that will listen who gave them some pointers, long long ago....

More importantly, I trust you're onbard Chris to pick up some of these for Helicon, Starport, and maybe that other venue you mentioned awhile back.

Quoted from LTG:
No. There are people here who hope they are successful.
LTG : )

Very much so!

We can hope for excellent game production, but also acknowledge how bizarre this first showing was, and also how incorrigible and brazen Robert can come across at times. It's not black and white, one or the other, with or against. Rational people settle in the gray towards some direction or none at all.

And his comments not just about this being a sewer, but leaving pinside this summer as the best decision he's made recently, and something about this site being poison weren't exactly inspiring to hear as a potential customer and Pinside user. There were a lot of unflattering comments made by him, which I don't understand, as this site isn't akin to a pinball version of 4chan. I've frankly never been around to witness completely gross or absurd behavior. I don't always agree with people, and at "worst" people offer fairly baselss criticism, and ideally at best constructive criticism, the same as any fan forum. So for me, this place is a valid arena to discuss ideas, and share passion about things.

Robert's attitude on here, frankly, seemed more poisonous, as a potential leader in the hobby, than anything that I've read from any particular forum member to another member on here. He criticized not just other manufacturers, but then the very userbase he wishes to sell to.

Quoted from cjmjmm2006:
I will. I have no communication with the company however so I can't project anything.

At this point, I'm thinking the more removed you, we all are, from Deeproot directly, we have a much, much better chance enjoying their products!

That whole announcement by Robert regarding him and the media, well his future podcast silence till March at the end of the Kaneda interview, hopefully will allow the oral turds he delivered to de-steam, and let us once again focus on their games, and not his girlish angsty tude'.

Quoted from wrb1977:
Amazing...first people complained deeproot talked too much. The sentiment was shut up until you have a proper reveal and have a final product to show. So, this is what deeproot has been doing. And now people are complaining they are too quiet and don’t know how to launch a product. Has anyone ever heard of “the element of surprise”?...remarkable. And now the debate is what defines media and who should be allowed to “their” launch event...fantastic!

I think it stems more from wishing success for them, than judging and assessing them as incompetent.

Quoted from LTG:
Wednesday March 25th.
https://deeprootpinball.com/
See you there.
LTG : )

Are you....IN?!?!?!?

Quoted from Yelobird:
They emailed everyone. The event is Still going on but they understand with the close of TPF many will not be able to attend.

Interesting! Makes sense given the smaller numbers.

Thanks for getting the word out!

Quoted from Tranquilize:
"It is unfortunate that the unprecedented COVID-19 (Chinese coronavirus)"
I'm assuming Robert wrote this. Only he would be dumb enough to include racism in the message. Fox News started this BS.

Dumb and racist. For someone you've never met, I assume, that's awfully presumptuous.

No wonder the guy stays outta this sewer!

Seriously...it's fatiguing all the insta judging and branding we do to one another, often total strangers. How does that make daily life more mellow, enjoyable and peaceful?

What a bummer to wake up to...

I kind of wonder why they just wouldn't push forward with a video push event. It would still garber massive attention, especially with all conventions and announcements shut down.

This thread got weird.......er.

Quoted from CLEllison:
Interesting take. Words are tone deaf so understand I'm not attacking you at all here. For me, the JPOP "magic" is how he has always taken a theme and so excellently integrated it into pinball. The artwork has always been second to none. A JPOP machine is so easy to spot because of it.
Spinny toy (for me personally super annoying)
Weird short skill shot shooter lane (for me personally super annoying)
One "fancy" ramp
Theatre of Magic (for me) was probably one of the "less" toy annoying JPOP jobs. Still weak shooter lane and one fancy ramp.
Now look at RAZA.
CHECK - Spinny toy (Basically every JPOP machine)
CHECK - Weird short skill shot shooter lane (Basically every JPOP machine)
CHECK - One "fancy" ramp (Basically every JPOP machine)
Roll over switches ala WCS94 and CV
Moving target (NED) ala WCS94 striker the goalie
Anyway, Robert spoke quite strongly of "innovation." I'm NOT saying RAZA is bad - but what I am saying is this game is CHOCK full of JPOP recycled ideas. I don't see any innovation here?
In all fairness maybe I'm missing the innovation piece and someone can educate me.

I'm still hoping the innovation comes from what we...haven't...been shown yet. Once they fully unveil RAZA, and ideally one or two more fully functional games (whenever that will occur) then it seems like a more fair time to assess Robert's claim.

Stern is most interested in profit and scraping by with the lowest BOM possible. So any approach or high minded claim other than what Stern is doing year after year, at least is attention getting.

Deeproot is a total fantasy right now, but that fantasy is the most engaging, even compared to JJP possibly being more streamlined as ownership rears it's head with each new game.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
The fantasy is almost always more exciting and enticing than reality. And deep root has always delivered in this department, in spades.

Ultimately we can only judge them as fantasy until they become a reality.

Even if they don't produce a single game, I kinda feel they'd still be less disappointing than Stern's titles. Now if they produce games as mediocre as Stern, then I'll be genuinely disappointed.

Quoted from Roostking:
I was like, yaa, thats some mental gymnastics right there.

Just my view. Not interested in buying games by Stern till they place more into build quality, better lcd, more novel use of the playfield and mechs, etc. I feel like Ripley's felt more like a pin from the B/W's 90's era than anything they've done since, maybe excluding Ghostbusters.

It's great that pinball has survived thanks to them existing solo, but their brand of pinball has never really interested me to the point of owning.

Hopefully Deeproot pushes much farther in the ways I feel Stern has languished. If they don't, more cash in my pocket.

Quoted from Yelobird:
Sorry not sure many would agree with you on this. Yes they have some issues but that Can and Will happen when you are the primary company building 90% of the pinball world products. Just the law of averages you will have more opinions and yes some issues. I personally Love all that Stern has offered and enough variety (more then one title) to appear to many tastes. Not an easy task I would bet. You might consider Owning a Stern some day to give your personal opinion of their quality and enjoyment vs what is pitched in a forum. Just a suggestion. In my view Stern is doing a lot of amazing things and most companies Wish they were in their position is my guess.

Lots of people would definitely disagree with me for sure, as lots of people are Stern owners, and are pretty contented about that....and that's a positive!

I didn't say that Stern isn't highly accomplished, and very efficient, as well as prolific, and most important profitable! They just don't fit my personal style for aesthetics, quality for price, theme selection, etc. And...that's okay too.

I've thought about buying an Elwin game, if any, but for me I feel like Stern's incredible strengths also hinder in some ways the overwhelming positives he brings.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
See, this post here sums up the delusion of your average deep root fetishist. When you are searching for a meaning in your life, a cure for emptiness, the fantasy (deep root) will always eclipse reality (stern). The delusion and longing for meaning runs so deep that you crave unfulfilled fantasy to the point that it means more to you than actual reality. You can’t touch it, buy it, or play it, yet it’s “less disappointing” than what reality actually has to offer.
It’s really quite fascinating! I’ll be following up with some questions once I secure the collegiate funding grant I need to complete my study on this psychological consumerist phenomena.

Well....that's kind of the point of any fantasy, be it religion, a marriage ceremony, new career you're striving for, a film, etc. Building and striving towards a goal represents hope, and elusive hope can often have a long lifespan, often more than an attainable representation of hope.

Most likely unattainable, but something you very badly wish to occur. Deeproot.

Quoted from Rdoyle1978:
Generally I agree that Stern has had some fairly lackluster releases recently - Munsters and Stranger Things come to mind. I hate that they can't even upgrade their damn coil stops, not to mention the clear issues.
But JP2 and Elvira3 have been KNOCK. OUT. good. The gameplay on JP2 is really interesting, the playfield is well laid out, the toys on the Prem are amazing - it's a solid package. (yeah the LCD work is kinda lame). EHOH on the other hand, is almost the reverse. Somehow Lyman figured out how to make the fan layout interesting, the art and LCD screen work is AMAZINGLY well integrated. I am just bowled over by that game. It's super fun, and there are a million modes. I haven't even seen half the game, and I play it every day.

I've heard nothing but overwhelming praise for EHOH, and haven't had a ton of time on it with newer code. And I definitely appreciate Elwin's design sense more than any other recent game by them, except for maybe Deadpool.

Quoted from beergut666:
I've got two Stern pros. One I paid $5200 NIB and the other was HUO with a bunch of cool mods for $5000. I've had little to no issues with either other than minor tweaks. Please point me in the direction of a better "value" than these. I've got money for a third ready to go. I'm not brand loyal, I'll give my money to anyone (including Deeproot when they reveal a game), but until I see something that better fits what I want out of a pinball machine Stern is always gonna get a look from me.

Stern games are exceptionally adequate and functional games.

They are the definition of a $7.99 pizza from a big box national chain. I don't get excited at all about their product and subsequent timely releases, but man are they dependable!

Case in point. I'd jump on an Avengers Pro for $4500, but wouldn't all the same be super excited to spend that. I also feel the "extras" they have for this game should without a doubt be included on the LE, and should be priced at 6/7K, for me anyway.

Quoted from razorsedge:
Nowdays you choose an LE and still don't recieve the full game, unless you pay More, again. Cheapskate corner cutters, and copycats.

The good games coming from Elwin almost make me want to... but I'd rather just play those titles onsite or somewhere rather than actually want to own any of them.

Ooooh, you mean those "accessories" that most likely cost up to $1,000 EXTRA that should be INCLUDED with the LE's?

I've no blooming idea how Stern produces barely any differences between LE and Premium models, yet that numbered plaque drives people batty!

I feel the same way. I really feel like Elwin mixes fun and challenging shots, and the code on his two existing games have been so much fun, but for me location play always feel the best choice.

Quoted from joshvandam:
[quoted image]

I thought this was a joke....

B.d. = Before Deeproot...?

Quoted from BC_Gambit:
Every pinball machine or physical item in the universe is limited. Everything is very special limited run. Act now!

Yeah, what with films, games, cars, etc. everything is a collectible, but also shit that'll exist after you're dead. So the collectible angle needs ditching.

This is what I TRY to tell myself daily, anyway.

Quoted from J85M:
Interested to see if deeproot release something following this tease before JJP release something following their tease months ago!

It's the Year's Greatest Tease Off..!

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
You would really be better off if you didn't take that stuff seriously. Enjoy it for whatever entertainment value you get from it but actually forming your own opinions / arguments on it is just an invitation for regret.
Remember how good he said Wonka was gonna be? I don't remember that game destroying any games on the "stern front."

This is an incredibly fair and reasonable response on your end.

Kaneda always fluffs the hype train. Sometimes it's fun, other times it's just inaccurate.

Quoted from Makakka:
We have an unseen paradoxon this month that can knock both your eyes blue. First one AIQLE totally out of the blue just look at the subs many stated they didnt have the money but had to buy anyway just had to buy this stunner le many with the money reserved for
1. RAZA
or
2. GnR
Im 1. For 2 look at the AIQ subs many already crying they dont have any money left for GnR bc of AIQ but have to buy GnR anyway if its awesome which Kaneda testifies. So yes I am victim of this paradoxon but will by far not be the only one. I think GnR will inflict even more damage than RAZA on the AIQ front if its as great as Kaneda says.

Good news is, your bank account can wait to take a hit on any of these games! This is exactly why I'm avoiding wacky limited to the extreme NIB purchases. It's just too expensive and volatile a market at times.

Quoted from Ericpinballfan:
0%, but here comes 3 pages of cabinet talk.

I'm sure this has been posted many times before, but it is compelling.

Screenshot_20200910-192837_Drive (resized).jpg

Quoted from CLEllison:
They just updated the teaser page[quoted image]

Fucking a. Get this god damn train a rolling..!!!

Quoted from cjchand:
You missed an interesting part at the bottom soliciting distros to sell RAZA.
Goes contrary to their prior plans of doing all direct sales.
[quoted image]

Side tangent. If they do want outside distro help, does that infer the number of RAZA stock will NOT be super duper limited, as in under 200 or sumthin'?

I hope it's a good bit over 500, so these things are super difficult to get down the road, or are sold out immediately or stupidly overpriced.

I'd be up for a 5K RAZA...maybe, but not a 7K and up one.

Gauntlet thrown..!

Screenshot_20200912-163607_Chrome (resized).jpg

Quoted from CLEllison:
AH - mystery solved. B. D. stands for "Before Deeproot".

I tossed that out there a few weeks ago. Many seem to agree. If that's actually what it is, Robert has hugeass balls. Great for him if he backs it up!!!

Quoted from pinballaddicted:
BD should be changed to BS in my opinion.
Still no game. That was said 4 years ago. Since then Stern have released 10 titles or maybe even more. Killer games too I may add.
What has Deeproot released? I understand people are willing Deeproot on and I sincerely hope we see a game ship in 2020 and not more broken promises.

I'm pretty sure this is a RAZA release. No doubt.

Quoted from pinballaddicted:
For their sake I sincerely hope so. The game will have to be great and start shipping straight away I think.

I really want to see that too. Announcement and at least a soft launch. Get on with it..!

Quoted from nwpinball:
I'm not sure why people feel the need to compare the newer companies to Stern, what we want is alternatives to Stern for more variety and innovation, not more of the same.

Yeeeessssssss!

e1e-1 (resized).png

Quoted from nwpinball:
I've met at shows have been in show mode and super friendly, when it gets down to business, pushing production, marketing and market share, I expect they are all pretty tough and know how to play hardball.

That's something people often fail at when assessing people, especially in the saaaaaaales business. Hell, Jack sold games for how many years? I'd imagine close friends and family see different aspects, just like any person.

Quoted from CLEllison:
What do you like? What do you dislike? What do you think would be cool to add? JPOP's artwork is really unique and I love it. E

More his art style, art direction, etc. I don't think he's an illustrator by trade. Not sure about his hobbies, other than being a Garth from "Wayne's World" impersonator.

Quoted from Rezdog:
Just a few forgotten 80s classics:
Fast Times at Ridgemount High
Caddyshack
Friday the 13th
The Breakfast Club
The Lost Boys
Untouchables
Heathers
First Blood
Purple Rain
This is Spinal Tap
Robocop
Platoon
Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure
Who Framed Roger Rabbit
The Thing

None of those are forgotten at all. None of those are even "cult" films.

Quoted from riggy469:
Kaneda just stated that RAZA will come in three trim levels, the lowest will cost less than a Stern Pro

Where did he say that?

Quoted from wrb1977:
Maybe this is failed logic, but if B.d. is “Before deeproot”, then 9.21.20 is still before deeproot. I am only expecting an official announcement tomorrow of their launch itinerary with dates and times. Nothing of real significance will take place until the 22nd or later. Good luck to deeproot!

I'd thought the same thing, but I hope even they aren't that convoluted.

Quoted from riggy469:
On his FB page.

He must have removed it. I looked minutes after your post.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:
What if Kaneda just made most of that up to stir up some things?

Either way, we'll see tomorrow!

I'd like to know ahead of time if there's a stream.

Quoted from wolftownjeff:
A huge thank you to our six special pinball VIPs who traveled to San Antonio to join us yesterday. Lauren, Cary, Colin, Chris, Jeff, Krystle: you are amazing and we are very grateful for everything you did to brighten our day! #timetowalkthewalk #pinballishard
* photo courtesy of Lauren Gray[quoted image]

Any time frame on info tomorrow? Or any live events streaming?

Quoted from riggy469:
Yeah, he said 5k, 6300-6500 ish, and 9800-ish.

6500 even would be a solid Premium/LE entry level.

And ideally it's not Stern, which for better or worse, we kind of know the style of game they produce routinely. A mix-up in the ring would be most welcome.

TWIP mentioned an update later today.

"TWIP will have a comprehensive overview and deep dive regarding deeproot Pinball’s launch later today.

We also plan to include an interview with Robert Mueller. Keep any eye out for the post later today!"

https://www.thisweekinpinball.com/deeproot-launching-jjp-6-coming-in-october-keith-elwin-interview-and-smoking-topper-twip-9-21-20/

Quoted from pinlink:
All the ones I recognize from that pic are local. No planes, just a quick car ride.

That's what I was thinking, several from around Texas. Did Jeff fly in?????

Quoted from kermit24:
That is the astonishing part.

Well, this is another excuse on their end, isn't it? To now place their incompetence on the estimation of outsiders rather than themselves.

This is textbook abusive behavior by this guy. You know what they say, "Fool me 6 or 7 times....".

Really weird panic mode reaction. Shame they didn't just state they're not where they want to be, and let people share all of this, as it looks pretty compelling to me!

Phew! Just caught up on the last 24 hours of Hype/Hate.

I only jumped back into this hobby seriously 2 years ago, and when presented with the coin door interface (Never really heard it's designation brought up.) I wondered why this archaic piece of equipment was the main interface for diagnositics, settings, etc, and not just a phone.

Again, (Also as a new owner) setting up a game, moving it, removing the glass, playfield movement, all things I felt were either confusing, outdated or inefficient.

So Robert and team have addressed these issues, and possibly improved upon them in ways that may OR may not effect the entire industry for years to come, just like JJP has done, and P3 has in some ways as well.

This is all amazing news!

The not so amazing news, that the next step needs discussed from deeproot IMMEDIATELY, as in literally yesterday, now that the proverbial pincat is out of the bag. Direction, explanations, and an actual REAL timeline needs put in place.

People do want and need innovation, and it seems like they've attempted to innovate on interface, build, connectivity, etc, and in NO WAY whatsoever have redesigned the game of pinball itself, just everything surrounding it. So as even diehards that state over and over again, how much pinball doesn't need to change. Well, deeproot hasn't changed it at all, but merely changed the wrappings it's been confined within for decades.

This...is a very, very good thing.

Now onto manufacturing...

Quoted from iceman44:
Now onto manufacturing..
As if that’s the easy part Wes
I see the games. Tell me when I’m getting a game in my house after I put an order down? What’s the pricing structure?
It can’t be like JJP where 4 or 5 Stern games come in between
Seems like much of the jibber jabber doesn’t mean anything until we know basic important stuff like that
It’s pinball so it’s exciting times and there are things in there that can move the needle forward hopefully.

Oh, totally! That's where this is a massive failure, despite being...a massive success!

I'd have loved to see you and others like you with game in hand, well game room, months ago, and for that to not have happened this week, or any week just around the corner is a monstrous flop and disappointment.

Side note, what keeps hitting me about this reveal was when initially reading that article yesterday, so many things seemed like "Oh yeah, definitely makes sense. Simple and seems like that could have been implemented ages ago..." would pop into my head time, and time again.

How many folks here own or know heavy Ipad users? I've always heard such a wonderful complement towards Steve Jobs and Apple being, "They make products you never knew you wanted, but you do now." or something to that extent, and for me, so many basic enhancements have been unveiled, and they all seem like possibly elegant solutions for pinball problems we never knew we had or never knew how to adjust.

That to me is innovation!

But yeah, this pesky manufacturing thing, the thing Stern does so amazingly well, is still at the core of deeproot's largest issues to come.

Quoted from yancy:
Because it's simple, time tested, rock solid technology that just plain works. I can navigate a Williams or Stern menu faster than you can do anything on a fancy touchscreen device. Never have to worry if my app is updated. Never have to go upstairs and grab my phone if I left it in the living room. Never have to troubleshoot the bluetooth dongle firmware or whatever the hell will inevitably break my ability to change something I can do in ten seconds with existing hardwired buttons. Don't have to worry about fat-fingering something on a touchscreen.
Ask any operator or longtime collector if they'd trade their coin door buttons for an app.

Outdated, you mean like pinball itself? All of those things you listed have been distilled down to their simplest essence over decades. No frills, just basic, commercial-grade mechanical functionality that even a luddite old-school operator can figure out without software or even a paper manual.

I see all of those as modern ways to introduce not just better functionality for a game, but most of all accessibility.

Baseball was pretty aged, over 50 years old prior to it being televised for the very first time in 1939. Television, then later cable, then online and phone accessibility only helps to provide larger groups of people the ability to enjoy and engage with the sport as a whole. Baseball hasn't really shifted much rules wise, in 130 plus years of it's existence, but the framework around it has, and in doing so has kept it modern, alive, and most importantly, in existence.

Quoted from NoQuarters:
Fu**k the ipads and phones. Pinball should be pinball. That's the last thing I want integrated in to a pin.
Just make better pins. Have them be reliable. Manufactured well. Great support - if the first 3 are taken care of the support should not be a problem for the manufacturer.

Aaaaaaand multiple other companies have been doing just that for the last decade.

What harm comes from a different company doing something...different? None. (Excluding boasting and such.)

I'm happy Stern exists. But they exist to produce, and produce, and produce, and sans competition, their design elements will never shift or progress. JJP helped push them forward. Now hopefully deeproot can put up, and also possibly help push other companies forward as well.

Or we can just keep getting the same stylings of pins every quarter, and wonder why they can often feel so similar to what a Stern game was from 3 years prior.

Options aren't ever bad. Monopolies sure as hell are though!

Quoted from NoQuarters:
Don't see Deeproot doing it Wesman. Have doubts they will. Sure I'd like to see it. But I think they are prone to failure with the time and what we have seen and not seen so far.
Yes multiple companies have done it. Deeproot - nope. Not even close.

I definitely agree.

They've done a tremendous amount of work, and also have a tremendous amount ahead of them.

Crazy fucking company that in one day goes from massive expectations, to massive disappointment, to then just massive confusion.

Ultimately I hope they do right by those affected by Zidware, at the very least.

Quoted from kermit24:
A platform is only as great as the games that can be played on it. Lets see more of the games and deeproot's ability to get them out the door.

The fact that they haven't released a public statement past the "Oopsy!" the other day, then allow third parties to present years of research and execution rather than themselves is a pretty major failure for me.

So many puzzle pieces put together, oh so many more to go....

Yeesh. 24 hours away from this thread and...

Endless Pinbar hate: Check!

No official updates on company trajectory or an actual fully realized explanation from deeproo: Also a big ass check.

I hope we get a whiff of a new plan here, one that might materialize sooner rather than later.

Excitement level: Definitely in check!

Quoted from CrazyLevi:
Pinside precedent says “the game should have sex with you” jokes don’t start until a price is announced.
If the game DOES have sex with you I hope they iron out the rough clear coat and pointy metal issues before the game gets a full release.

You mean....before the player gets a full release.

Quoted from Bumper:
Only one day left to order your Kia for a Ferrari price...

Today was the last day at 3PM Central. If you want to trash accurately, at least get the date right!

Quoted from jeffgoldstein2:
From over 30 employees to 7?
Is it true that you have the option to pay an extra $1,000 to have the game shipped in a wooded crate. And if you don’t pay for the upgrade they won’t take responsibility on shipping damage??? Not sure if this is true or not but if it is then major Red Flag.
Don't have a good feeling about this.

I'd assume that's their base creative staff. There obviously/hopefully should be line workers/etc. in addition.

Quoted from Yelobird:
Curious, does Stern or JJP claim responsibility or cost for shipping damage? Hmmm don't think so. Seems like a shipping claim issue or at least that was the case with the damage claims I had in the past.

Stop being rational Yelo!

Well, we know neither deal well with playfield damage. That's for sure...

Quoted from Yelobird:
Lol yes they all seem to have issues. While I do appreciate some of the drilling opinion and rational of this thread it does seem at times that some details are Assumed or speculated to an amazing degree or taken Way out of context. I sincerely respect some of the concerns and logic shared in these thousands of posts but it does seem like we are at the "guess we will All just see what happens now" stage. Order desk is now closed. What they (DR) put in Writing now and moving forward is my only concern. What happened with other companies, sorry can't judge this company on those mistakes. How they move from this "for sale" point is ALL I will judge them by, not by assuming but by performance. Time will tell but focused Only forward I believe this will be a valuable new direction for Pinball. I wish them and all that see what they are doing a Successful launch!

It's certainly a curious study, in the least, of cynicism versus optimism. Or naivete versus hope, depending on your lens.

Robert and JPop's pinball careers will be over, if this is a fail. And I can't fathom a fail of that financial proportion at this point.

One never knows, well...until we do, months from now.

Quoted from benheck:
Why do people have to explain / apologize for not liking something?
Hell half my friends are obsessed with hating an orange buffoon they've never met, surely people can have an opinion about a company/people they actually have experience with?

Possibly because unvetted anger only feeds into the worst aspects of humanity, versus building into the better qualities, which need nurtured and assisted to flourish.

Humans will naturally float towards cynicism, versus optimism. The prior takes less work, and on a genuine level, easier to build with other large groups of people. This thread is an example of that.

Just as much as ignorant positivity needs checked, so does virulent negativity.

Quoted from Scandell:
Do not mistake unpopular facts for skepticism and cynicism.

Yes, but you're an ex employee with a hatchet in hand, no? You and Robert both would have to be taken with a reasonable grain of salt by any objective bystander. Your skin in the game is literal skin, your time, skill, passion, etc. I understand and respect that.

Any reasonable person questions all sides.

And why does this thread exist? What fuels it daily? Why does it have far more longevity than the preorder thread has and will?

People gravitate more towards hate, than hope, natively so. See the last 4 painful years for a grand, nauseating, global example of that.

Quoted from Scandell:
no hatchet. For my part. I wasn’t at DR long enough to feel unfairly treated. Just love pinball.

I'm glad to hear that. Carrying anguish has it's toll, as much as the initial wound.

Quoted from benheck:
It's an industry fraught with failed startups.
You've got a hack who tricks people with commissioned art and a rich dude who only cares about art who's obsessed with said hack.
If that doesn't set off red flags have your optometrist check you for color blindness.
Are we driving back into pre-SKITB times where no criticism was allowed until after millions had been lost?

There's a very specific difference between criticism and bloodlust. Come on man, the vitriol in this thread is as real as the skepticism NEEDS to be. Difference is skepticism has value, vitriol is irrational and has no use except as a rallying call for increased hate.

For my two cents, I'd be genuinely surprised if this game doesn't get manufactured at this point. To develop an entire machine, new UI with a new interface, finalized art, mechs, code, etc....and then do what with it? Gain a few hundred thousand in preorder cash and run away???

Seems more unlikely than producing games.

Also, questioning the entire company also means questioning known people like Steve Bowden, David Thiel, and Barry Oursler. So for all of the Robert/Jpop/We've Seen This Before People, do you feel comfortable discrediting those industry veterans/known entities as well?

Quoted from kermit24:
Look at the employees left. It’s a design studio, not a manufacturing company. They would be better off using a local contract manufacturer at this point.

Why would they list line workers on the page with the creative team?

I don't see many companies posting photos of each and every grunt that's employed. I certainly know my photo, of several hundred grunt workers, isn't posted anywhere in our building/online.

Quoted from cpr9999:
While I have less faith today that DR will succeed I hope they do for the sake of the preorder people.
However, this above Iceman statement sums up many of the responses in this thread. There seems to be real rooting for failure here and I am going to ask people who post here from time to time - why is that - even though it may sound annoying. I really want to know.
If you got burned by Jpop, then by all means state that and you have a legit beef - if you are just piling on I will be annoying
Piling on adds nothing to the forum content to move the discussion forward.

I've asked the same thing, over and over again.

None of these people will acknowledge this, but it's not for reasons of looking out for other's well being and cash.

It's ego versus ego.

They see these people aim, often wrecklessly and foolishly, very high, and it's an easier thing to shoot down at them (in their mind) when in reality they're shooting up at them. These people are attempting to reach for greatness, and others that attack them as a second career.....aren't. They aren't capable, didn't take the risk, don't have the ability.

Ego.

The biggest naysayers here aren't realists. Realists acknowledge two possible outcomes. Success or failure. Wounded egos only wish to break, tear, and destroy.

In less than a year, we'll see 1 of 2 possible groups of people in this thread. Those that wish they hadn't "invested" or those that wish they had....

Quoted from PinMonk:
Jpop's B/W/M games are often attractive (Star Wars Ep 1 and WCS'94 excepted), and I've had them all, but I don't really want any of them again. They're more like interactive art and way too shallow. I Joined the Cirqus the first day I had Cirqus Voltaire. That sucked.
Cirqus Voltaire
Star Wars Ep 1
Tales of the Arabian Nights
Theatre of Magic
World Cup Soccer
I dunno. Maaaaaybe collectors would want a broken game just to say they had it, but the bloom was off having a blinky mostly non-functional Magic Girl pretty fast.
For direroot, I was much more interested in what Dennis Nordman and Barry Oursler were doing, so I hope for the sale of their pins that RAZA does well enough to get Dennis' and Barry's made, too.

Barry has a stupid amount of games in the pipeline, and has been responsible for so many amazing games, years ago. I really hope some of them see the light of day.

Supposedly he's designed Goonies. That would be fun.

Quoted from greenhornet:
you were lucky. if memory serves me correctly, two years ago gryszzz called me a 'f*k*n jizzmonger'. im not at liberty to say how long that comment was allowed to stand.

Sounds like he was tryin' to butter you up!

Quoted from hank527:
Thank you. All good as I was kinda shocked with that one. I’ve been burnt by Heighway, Jpop, and Kevin, so I’m very skeptical on that entire thing. I did get lost in what is okay as that thread has gone off topic at times. I’m sorry as well for that comment.

I went back and reread that exchange. Glad you both had a back and forth here.

Regarding what you'd said over there, clearly their plans have been f'ed up for quite some time now. So yeah...asking about the whereabouts of other launch games, a solid year and a half after those plans being botched...is trolling. Being accountable for how you present yourself, is even more important than asking others to be accountable for how they present themselves.

I'd also say there's a slight difference between someone "being a...", and saying "you are a..." which he didn't do.

I can understand you being irked about the company in general, given the history you stated. That definitely sounds rough. But...be happy you haven't jumped in again, and given yourself a reason to feel anxiety. And for those that did, allow them the ability to feel excitement for the time being. And then if shit falls apart, you and them both, will have a common ground of empathy. Otherwise, prior to that possibility, it's more antagonizing people with deposits. Which....is the fuel for this particular thread!

For now, there's a grace window, and not much to discuss. Maybe 2-3 weeks from now, if there's no news on their end, then some flames should be fanned.

Quoted from Mr68:
I'm really fighting to stay out of the other thread as I respect their right to believe and do as they wish. I wrote a response to a comment in the Pre-order/Owner thread but decided to cut and paste it here instead.
It was posted that Deeproot's entire approach is basically the same as any other new company. My response:
Sorry but no. Deeproot brought in Jpop, took responsibility for the Zidware pre-order fiasco and promised to make things right. One of those promises towards making things right was to never do a pre-order. I mean, a pre-order to cure a bad pre-order from the past??
And this from the self-proclaimed richest pinball manufacture of them all and games would be in boxes for sale at launch.

That's probably in reply to what I wrote over there. So I'll reply over here, or we can make more deeproot threads to poop on.

There are definitely differences. My statement discussed that every company needs customers to enter in on a new company. JJP needed that, and did so with low cost WoZ's, and Spooky needed people to buy through client games and America's Most Haunted, for future games to be made.

There are always going to be differences. AIP needed less sells, I'm assuming, to move forward with games 2/3, but even then, at a certain point if sales never flourish, I'd assume Aimtron might cut that idea aside.

Regarding the JPop and Zidware adoption, well...if those aspects pan out positively, then that's actually something these other companies didn't take on baggage wise, and to possibly succeed with that taken on, and producing games is something to, I dunno, respect all the more so?

By this time next year, we'll see one way or the other, how deeproot turns out. They either back up the hubris or burn out via it.

Quoted from Tranquilize:
If that's true, they should change the names of all owner's threads to "circle-jerk celebrating [insert machine]". I've criticized many things about games I own in owners threads. Just how protected are they? Please enlighten us.

Did you offer criticism in the Rick and Morty thread? That place is pretty hallowed ground, and yeah...the norm is to not utterly hound and shit on, over and over again, a game in those circle jerk/owner's threads. THIS is the shit on deeproot thread, regardless of success or failure.

Quoted from Mr68:
How is an honest accounting of past behavior shitting on someone?

This is the first time deeproot has taken customer orders, and in doing so, asked for preorder money. Regardless of the maaaaassive prior spin he made, now is the very first time people that...want...to buy a game/the idea of a game, have the ability to do so. So...what past behavior needs does deeproot need to be judged by?

This is the very first literal promise/proposal by them. The years prior, outside of the Zidware situation, at worst were endless empty promises never kept. No money was asked for or taken.

So again, what "past behavior" is a genuine issue, to those that have NOT bought in via preorders? (Outside Zidware.)

Quoted from flynnibus:
No, WOZ was not low cost - it was the most expensive game to date. The only reason the 6500 price looks low after the fact is because Jack set the price before he knew what it would cost him, and prompted raised the price for future orders.

Again, no.

Whether you wish to believe him or not, Jack has definitely stated $6500 was cutting into bom. That game doesn't even sell for $9500 at this point. I'd assume $9500 wouldn't please the new owner, hence YBR.

Similarly, RAZA looks jam packed compared to most Stern LE's. At the worst, very, very comparable, and at 3K less.

So after Spooky made 2 fairly...literal bootique games, Domino's and Jetsons were created, why exactly? I'd assume cashflow, rather than inspiration.

Quoted from flynnibus:
Do you not read? The game was sold at that price because jack set the pre order price before they even knew what the game was fully. He disnt set a low price as you said, he set a cadillac price. Just so happens the price wasn’t high enough once they actually figured out what the game was and how much it coat to make.
He never set out to sell woz cheap as you said.. they were doing just the opposite

They were contract games. And doing so helped spooky because they would be sales... which is what manufacturing companies want.

Can you ever post without being snide and condescending or is that something you believe to be a positive personality trait? Trust me, it is not.

Yes, I understand the escalation of low balling himself, and then having to gradually step increase multiple times. That's why the game rose 5K over the years. From loss, to profit. A learning process for Jack, then the new owner.

Have you not considered maybe Robert might be accidentally or purposefully to bring in confidence to the pinball scene, falling down the same path?

And wowee zowee...!!! Yes, a contract game. Kind of what RAZA is for Zidware customers, and anyone else that wants a game. Robert has stated multiple times in recent interviews, that this is a limited game. So it's really more the backlog, obligation game.

Quoted from flynnibus:
Maybe if you actually listened and incorporated the actual correct information people would not talk down to you after having to repeatedly fix the same misinformation.

So you want to give him credit for it no matter if it’s intentional or accidentally?

Again... no
Raza isn’t a contract game - it’s a deeproot game that deeproot spent considerable time and money to bring in house.
Raza was not brought in as a limited build or even to satisfy the zidware folks (at the time the promise was a full slate of games from which people would pick from). That is revisionist history
Raza being limited now is either a sales gimmick or simply trying to cut their losses and move on. My guess a bit of both.

Nice. Double down. I wouldn't expect less. Soooo repeatedly fix what misinformation? How long has that convo between you and I or anyone existed? One paragraph a piece? You seem to chime in on conversations solely to prove yourself the most "right" time and time again. Doesn't that style of personality wear on you, ever? It's just not fun, conversational or most of all polite.

I'll give him much credit when games are shipped. Pendantic arguments and past discrepancies don't matter much to me, not being a Zidware guy, not that I don't have empathy for those people. Which again, it's pretty decent of him that he adopted not just Jpop, but his debts. Why hate on the guy for that???

I didn't mean contract game, literally. Which is why I said "kind of". Wasn't RAZA part of the Zidware inheritance? If so, it is the optional game being given to Zidware clientele in lieu of the payout.

Why again am I trying to converse/debate with you? You're always right, never willing to see different views, and most of all as charming as indigestion.

Quoted from flynnibus:
No when people like yourself tell tall tales out of ignorance or delusion I will interject so other readers don’t make the mistake of actual believing what you wrote was accurate.
If you feel it happens so much.. consider why you have to keep being corrected so much

What on earth is your issue? What tall tales exactly am I spinning?

I said JJP sold WoZ at low cost. I never stated I felt it was a sales tactic, and why would you be so irked if some schmoe you've never met got "facts" incorrect about a company he's not a part of or speaking on behalf of? Self importance here is a one way street. My views and words largely only matter/have value to me. I'm aware of that.

Back to the point, I'm sure Jack felt at the time he could sell at that point, and profit (dur), only to find out he wasn't really able to. Hence price increases afterwards, as well as an investor buying into JJP. He's stated over and over again that making his own pinball business was crazy. Clearly he got in over his head, and I'd assume most pinball fans are glad he did.

Robert clearly got in over his own head, has humbled himself some in recent interviews, and now time will tell whether games get out, whether a second one does, and if deeproot exists as many years as JJP has so far.

I'm saying your schtick, your persona, is time and time again issuing your posts and viewpoints as the end all be all. This isn't specific to whatever weirdass dialog we're having here, it's your identity on this board, and it's tiresome. You're a bright person, no doubt, but man your sensibilities and demeanor are really overbearing and offputting at times.

Quoted from flynnibus:
He did sell the presale games at low MARGIN... but that wasn’t the intention. They honored the presale price to avoid killing his reputation before they even got started. And also why they started shipping games to new buyers before they shipped all their Presold games.

I. Understand. This.

This is no different than what I said. He accidentally sold them at nearly/at a loss, and raised them time, and time again as a result. Why is specific phrasing your hanging point here?

Semantics.

And just because he upped the pricing model of games on the market, doesn't discount that their bom was most likely significantly higher than the only other manufacturer around at the time, Stern.

And that's my point. Robert has priced RAZA with less profit margin, and assuming games are delivered at $5900, people still will find reason to complain. That game at barebones has significant value.

This is entirely why I made the comparison. 2 new companies, wanting to attract market share, most likely priced introductory games at a low profit margin to do so.

Quoted from flynnibus:
It has everything to do with DR. The claim was Deeproot's actions are just the same as every other pinball startup, and flat out wrong claims and rewritten history were cited to try to justify that belief. Like JJP selling WOZ at 'low cost' to drive market share...(RAZA's intro price) or that RAZA is a contract game like Spooky did Jetsons and Dominos... or that AMH was done so people would buy future games..(like RAZA)..
It's spindoctors throwing out non-sense to try to diffuse the bewilderment that is Deeproot's go to market.

Please tell me when your biography of Jack comes out. I'll be the first to purchase it, along with an autograph for sure.

Spindoctoring is exactly all the b.s. you spew. You're not privy to ANYTHING going on in these companies, yet your endless debates do nothing but attempt to illustrate how informed you are, and other's aren't.

Ego. You are 100% logical ego. And that's no fun to discuss things with, because your sense of victory doesn't stem from having an enjoyable conversation and developing a friendship with someone you've never met, your joy results from trying to punish someone via your own sense of funky dominance and insecurity. That is seriously bizarre, and a reason I don't enjoy forum discussion on here. (Are you listening to the message here or does only being right have value to you?)

And yes, semantics. Which was you miscontrusing my statements, and continually using your impressions of what I said against me.

"the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text."

And whoopdeedoo, you had typos in some of your replies. Why would I jump on something like that and wish to correct it?

PM me if you wish to teach me all the pinball history you feel I'm inaccurate about or to forward me the first few chapters of Jack's bio/JJP's history.

Quoted from flynnibus:
It's simple public knowledge of the history of events and statements. No 'insight' needed - just references and knowledge.
If you find any of my references wrong - feel free to correct me and I hope to learn more from your help. But I don't see you correcting anything I've said, just resistance to your cites being called out as bogus. And your theories are based on cites that are blatantly wrong, so they really don't carry much value either.

I am glad I let this thread hang for a day, on my offday, and used it to enjoy drinking decent/and not so decent beer, playing more daft Ass Creed, and rewatching Starship Troopers.

A better day than the last, for sure!

Did I miss anything here?

Man, this thread is like a giant toilet. Not...(well, yet anyway) because deeproot has failed, bankrupted, and produced NADA, but there are so many drive-by shitters that stroll through to page after page just dump and dunk. Doesn't that get old after awhile? Seemingly, it doesn't...

Food Truck isn't the most creative name, but I could imagine it might be an enjoyable theme. The art they showed looked pretty decent, and Barry Oursler created some fantastic games ages ago.

I know only known themes sell, but all of my favorite games, sans TAF, were mostly non licensed games in the 90's. Not that I necessarily want Al's Garage Band over a good usage of the Zep license though...

(And ducking and preparing for more turdfests, because god forbid any ounce of positivity might exist in this discussion.)

Quoted from Zablon:
This sounds like a great theme for a pin.

Well....Barry did design Junkyard!

Quoted from cpr9999:
Dennis Nordman article - question:
https://www.pinballnews.com/site/2021/01/04/dennis-nordman-joins-american-pinball/
What does this mean in the article.....
“Dennis will also finish releasing in-progress games in the future that he’s been working on under contract with other manufacturers.”

I'm guessing deeproot stuff. Same statement happened with Elvira.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:Deleted post

You called the guy a drunk. Should he be all cheery and sunshine in response?

Speaking of....time for a beer. A better use of time, listening to rain drops, than the back and forth on here.

Quoted from toyotaboy:
I would love to know who is on his "team". Really hope JPOP isn't one of them.

He stated he isn't in this prior video.

Quoted from Valorguy:
Am I missing a piece of info here - how does this relate to the Deeproot fiasco?

He bought proyptypes, some, not all whitewoods, IP rights, and whatever assets he could find. He said most were cloud uploaded,weren't paid for, so *poof*

He seems to intend to confer with some other people who have assets, and release a non commercial free license to anyone for the homebrew community.

Also, he is working on his own project.

JPOP and Richard are not involved, really only maybe some people he met/worked with directly.

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deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago

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