Seattle, WA
So your saying it is like South Park and underpants = profit
(Topic ID: 203700)
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4 months later
Looks pretty cool - I think it may be impossible to come in at some low price point they claimed when you see all those ramps and gadgets but hard not to be impressed. Lets hope they keep all the stuff on it from prototype to final product. Hope it plays well and has good rules.
I love space themes especially retro ones. Hard not to consider myself a potential buyer by appearance but I would want to not fall into a Dutch Pinball fantasy either and will have to wait to play it, make sure they can build it and deliver it. But, reflecting on the prior JPOP payback to Zidware customers seems like they are serious.
But, like many pinsiders I do or can fall in love with new shinny things and theme.
Don't let us down Deeproot. Deliver a product no hype no big claims. Use standard mechs to build it and make it replaceable parts make it decent and serviceable.
Quoted from flynnibus:Its like people never learn...
They see a prototype and now that company is ready to take over the world.. and hit every promise... and be first to everything...
Its like people forget Dutch had two great looking Finished prototypes as well... how quickly people forget getting to reliable steady level of production is the hard part.
“Octo manufacturing to the rescue!!!!”
Yes true...I hope they make it but a prototype is just that. Let’s see production and price before others doom Stern or other manufacturers.
It is a nice looking game and a good theme for me but I will wait to see if it really makes it through the hard parts of building it etc.
Quoted from toyotaboy:The early photo DR posted of the design team showed about 20 people. salary is probably 4k a month average but factor in vacation/holiday/401k/health insurance it's probably 6k
6k x 20 designers = $120k
Factor in some of the team from the other division to work on art/code (assume a team of 6), add another $36k
Assume Robert's facility is 41k sq feet:
https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/12621-Silicon-Dr-San-Antonio-TX/6336044/
I don't know what commercial real estate is, but if you assume it's close to renting any property it should be about $1/sq foot
My electric/gas bill for my 1400 sq foot house is about $150 month, so multiply by 30x: $4500
salaries: $156k
rental: $44k
heat/power: $4500
Still haven't factored in various things to run a business like capital equipment (computers, software, network equipment, office furniture), production area (air lines, benches, power drivers, conveyors, parts bins, forklifts), any other equipment they decided to buy or lease (CNC, pcb pick and place machines, presses, injection molding, machine shop for fabrication, vacuum former, direct printing machine)
Maybe $750k/month is a bit of a stretch, but it's probably not that far off during the early phase (and I'm also guessing at numbers, they could be much higher)
Way under on salary - I agree it is not $750k but it has a payroll way over $250k alone.
Payroll of $36k is $15-17 an hour - no professional works that cheap.
Doesn’t mean they exclusively work on pinball too so I think there costs are in line but I just had to comment on this estimate being so low.
Doesn’t matter anyway - businesses lose often for months of a year, or even years at a time and don’t go belly up. Not comparing this to other businesses is fair this is nothing compared an Uber or Lyft or Tesla but they have lost money and never made a profit and are still around.
Pinball is not a growing industry and would ever be like any real major business but many companies lose money for years and just approach it as some complimentary business or some thing that will eventually become profitable.
The old adage-
Want to make a small fortune?
Start a pinball company with a big fortune.
Everyone’s assumptions on DR are just that, assumptions, you can’t assume his start up expenses were consistent. Some designers may not even be on salary - we live in a gig economy and who know how many staff are even full time.
For me I hope DR makes it as competition is good for the industry and will improve the outcome. No one should assume anything on their financial health, we are consumers and we should wish for their good fortune.
Ok - Robert should not trash potential customers on Pinside but this forum is an example of some ill will towards him regardless of who started it, I can understand his Distaste for Pinside from many posts here.
There are many people in the business world with questionable personalities and grandiose statements who succeed and fail. Let the product speak for itself when it is for sale and if it is good enough the market will settle all these comments the rest of the assumptions stated here.
The marketplace will always win.
The long long term on many established businesses these days are even questionable and many long loss businesses seem to keep going these days.
The market in the end always wins.
Vote with your checkbook when a product is for sale.
Quoted from rubberducks:Come on, if that were the case, they'd have to have been completely out of their minds given recent history in the industry. Especially as most of them moved half way across the country to Texas, and many quit existing gigs.
Really, I disagree what else do old pinball designers do when not working. Nothing is the answer...it’s like artists you pick them up when needed and then they are done when it is over.
My only point was start up expenses are not necessary constant and even if they were many businesses lose money for years.
A products price in the end Generally reflect of costs To produce it but not always.
We have many notable example of products these days delivered for free or at a loss. The internet did that to many industries and many old business rules are up-ended these days it seems, that was my point.
The industry will benefit if more competition exists and the market will determine who will make it.
4 weeks later
The pinball landscape is changing, lots of releases coming before Deep Root releases their first pin. I am still withholding judgement I don’t think their prototype in Texas was bad, better they showed a pin that people can play then a bunch of people buying Stranger Things or Rick and Morty without ever playing it or seeing it in the wild. I get those are huge themes for people but too many people in this hobby buy sight unseen.
Play all the ones that come out, see what you like and buy one. Who knows it may be Deeproot you like in the end.
It’s a shame that Deeproot bragged so much and offended so many people making outrageous claims, because now their delays and issues is a stark contrast to all the releases happening right now. I think people could have respected them more if they grew like Spooky building up credibility after pins showing ever increasing complexity and compelling themes. Quietly growing a fan base, no outrageous claims or false bravado. Good for Spooky on Rick and Morty...I still hope for Deeproot to make something happen.
If Magic girl comes out soon after RAZA who knows.
The industry pushes each other when multiple companies compete for customers.
1 month later
3 months later
Quoted from PinballManiac40:Stay tuned....
For another 12 weeks of no news -
I liked the RAZA theme I don’t need licensed themes like everyone else, I thought RAZA could be like BBB in colors and kind of space ish theme.
But I think nothing special will come of this, maybe nothing at all.
I know this seems weird but even American Pinball Hot Wheels looks pretty good in the short video on SDTM podcast, the light effects are cool who knows on game play but with COVID they decided to go forward and there seems to be a lot of game there for the potential price (yes - I know not 100% revealed).
You got TNMT and not Hot Wheels soon GNR from JJP there is a you missed the boat moment coming up if they don’t reveal soon. There is only so much disposable income out there and those are some pretty compelling options. I say this as someone who is cheering for DeepRoot and like the theme of RAZA, I think the theme could be like a BBB in art or quirky-ness.
4 months later
Wow - I need to stop reading this thread. When CGC releases Cactus Canyon it is just another company releasing a pinball that takes market opportunity away from Deeproot.
RM still has sold out and maybe some second thoughts for a few people who now want GNR but someone always takes their slots for over what they paid.
GNR has huge pre-orders and will be selling that machine for years.
Stern is still selling Avengers and will sell thousands.
I think they could sell RAZA but it’s time to make machines not just talk about them.
Heck CGC is slow and they likely will beat DR out with Cactus Canyon with completed code before DR makes another attempt at a product reveal is my guess.
Well no reveal will match JJP and GNR.
People can trash Chicago Coin for delays but they have made machines before at least. Completing and updating incomplete code making new mechanisms for production takes time. Likely they are much closer to production than Deep Root.
That being said...I root for more companies and more games as a consumer we all benefit.
3 weeks later
Quoted from parsonsaj:Amazing...[quoted image]
Interesting - wonder what we can bitch about now?
2 weeks later
To me it’s nice to see an actual opportunity to order but to do it before I play it is tough.
I like the theme, looks good, the pinbar is unknown until you see it. Getting content on DLC is fine but I would to buy on demand not a subscription. But, who knows...
I just have to see it in person before I would drop money on it. But, who is seeing any new game now before buying it.
Where is anyone seeing / playing games in public. That is why his pre-order time frame seems strange. I may be a buyer in the future so we will see if an arcade edition will be available months from now.
Quoted from Yelobird:Lol because a technical journalist was invited to an unveiling they Must be a customer? Where do you come up with this stuff? You are welcome to come play our Raza when it Will arrive.
Ok - confused here - I get people saying it’s risky for an unproven company. It’s easy to be a nay sayer because if you are wrong you say glad it all worked out.
But, what are you saying? Are you saying you are confident you will see a working machine? You make mods I would think you need a unit to make mods for...
Quoted from jellikit:Skit-B had deposits for the limited 250 machines they were to make, but it was a popular licensed theme.
Wasn’t Skit-B like a home brew and one guy. I kind of think this company has more signs of permanence. Yes, we get the reference this can still go sideways and it still can...
Quoted from iceman44:Let me clarify that Sunking, they WILL get games out the door, the MAIN issue is how many and how long will it take to get "cash flow neutral" so they can at least come up for air.
Nobody has an unlimited cash burn stockpile. If they can make 300, then 500, then 750, then 1500 etc. and not run out of money in the process, that is the MAIN issue to me if I'm Robert's beancounter and putting my CPA hat on.
They may never make it with the amount of fixed overhead they have, i don't know how many units they have to sell or DLC upgrades to get there.
It ain't gonna be easy and it ain't gonna happen overnight.
Stern is boxing up 85 games a day with over 300 employees! Wow.
If you could box up 3 games a day over 250 work days a year for starters that's 750 pins. We know it takes Spooky 30 employees to get that done.
That's a possibility right? Maybe they need to produce 2 times that number per year to breakeven? Who knows.
How are you convinced functioning games WILL get out of the door. I believe that they will get produced as well - but where does your confidence come from?
Quoted from dpeck3:Unless you’ve been one of the people who are (I don’t wanna use the word crazy but maybe brave enough?) to put down all of the money, it’s only a deposit that has been put down. And no smart lawyer is going to tell you to really fight for your 1500 bucks back. It’s gonna cost you $300 just to have a letter written by a lawyer here. Basically you just put $1800 in the slot machine and you’re hoping to get your money back at the very least. I’ve got a deposit in on one but understanding that this game has been delayed three times and in production for years does not make me very comfortable right now especially since there is no pictures of any factory or production and just three weeks ago when a very public tour that you can watch on YouTube was done, there was no production facility. Games in February? That would be a miracle. If DR Wanted you to believe there were really games, we would see pictures of some sort of production by now. That would sell games and raise customer confidence. Right now all I hear is laughter from everybody that I have told that I’ve given DR a deposit to. Makes me feel great. Promises dont really work anymore. I’m done putting down deposits on start up companies. It’s a shame that some of the pinball universe has come down to you risking your money. Remember the good all days when you would put down your deposit and get a machine? Then the machine was delivered and it had a warranty? The way the contract is written, they can throw a game in the box that doesn’t work Or that’s been halfway engineered, ship it to you and tell you they delivered. Oh, but that you don’t have any warranty or recourse, have a nice day. Yeah I’ll drop 10,000 bucks on that. Ill take three of them please. What are they doing? Are they trying to sell games or scare people away? What exactly is their business model that is going to make them the next contender in the pinball industry with that type of approach?
Wow - you say all that and still put a deposit down?
I think if you get an Arcade and it is $700 it is not that much of a risk I would worry more when they ask for the remaining balance and you have not seen any unboxings.
2 weeks later
Quoted from Robotoes:Really? Can you point me to that?
I think it was in multiple places and a podcast or two discussed it they are not shipping to Europe until CE (same as US UL approval) is complete. I think it was in their FAQ on shipping on their site.
Of course they are not shipping in the USA until machines are made as well - to just admit that part of the conversation as well.
Quoted from DS_Nadine:It is gone indeed, but that doesn't really matter.
It was there wen you could order the game. So you hopefully read that when you ordered your machine.
Order banks are now closed (and how/ when the game will be delivered will change multiple times anyway), so the site is gone.
In case you didn't order, why care if the delivery timeframe is not still there on the website?
It can't be because of pure interrest, since the answer to your questions was posted multiple times in this thread or to simple down things what Yelobird just dug out for your reading pleasure.
Additzionally, as said (by Deeproot themselfes), certification is needed for overseas sales.
Since different countrys have different standards you just target the strictest (mostly the CE) and with that have most of your other things in line.
If you have an account with Deeproot and log in the information is still there...
So buyers have access to all the info still.
1 week later
Quoted from Mark1971:I made a comment the other day about calling 5 times and nobody picking up the phone, Deep root reached out to me today and all is good in the world. Looking forward to RAZA showing up.
It was MLK day - maybe?
5 months later
Quoted from kklank:That’s not quite how it works. PPP funds get wired into your operations account with all the rest of your working capital.
PPP funds have restrictions for use…payroll and operating expenses mainly. Then the use also determines if it a low interest loan or a potential grant.
Anyone thinking PPP was some lifesaver to DR it’s not, millions of businesses in the USA applied for PPP funds.
DR was a mess before I am sure this was a drop in the bucket of their daily spend.
3 weeks later
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:What pisses me off even more about Deeproot is all of the PPP money that you and I gave them that they won't have to pay back
Really - one I doubt they won't have to pay some back but millions of businesses and hardly a thing you can call a business got money from the govt. during COVID. The government was making it rain cash and still is, I am sure some African fraud ring that got the millions from the unemployment they stole over multiple states deserved it more then DR. Or the lobbyists, law firms, churches, supposedly Tom Brady received a PPP loan for his business, Planned Parenthood, some other celebs, many larger businesses when it was intended for small businesses.
Sure DR has a dubious business plan but any loser could get cash from the govt because of COVID.
Everyone should be pissed at the govt that they gave so little care and scrutiny to the money dumped on state / local govt's and every business many little impacted.
The fool would be the person who did not apply and try.
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