(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread


By pin2d

2 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

10 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (2 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by vireland (7 months ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (28 days ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (28 days ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (28 days ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (27 days ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (27 days ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (26 days ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (24 days ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (17 days ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#2999 7 months ago

It's funny to me the number of people who think it's some Herculean engineering task to develop a system that could track the ball on the playfield without mechanical switches

Gerry, you really need to work on getting the P3 to more shows...

#3057 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Ignoring the point why I said it devolves into Optos... you can’t have one spot that can see the entire pf! So instead of one.. you end up with two... three... four... and now your just back to doing what we are doing... proximity. And at that point, your complex method is completely wasted.
People seem to forget... sometimes the reason a method is repeated is not just venues it’s easier to copy.. but because it can be the most effective mix that has been proven.
Innovation that doesn’t improve anything is simply experimentation. You try to avoid making your customers bear that burden.
If the solution doesn’t outperform the original... don’t do it.
(This coming from a guy whose industr has been trying to perfect drawing tracking, fingers, multitouch, etc forever). Digital whiteboards anyone? Yeah it’s the same problem and it’s been worked on for ages. Both optically and with surface designs.

It just doesn't seem that technically challenging to install a small number of IR lamps in strategic locations and have an array of sensors positioned to view the majority of the playfield (with a few supplemental mechanical switches as needed). The lamps could flash a grid like pattern and the sensors would repeatedly detect changes. Software would then determine the locations of all the static objects and track the moving ball(s). Sure it wouldn't be perfect, but it could be just as effective as how it's done now.

At that point it's a cost-benefit analysis comparing the new system to the reduction in parts, labor, and assembly time from doing things the traditional way. And there would be new benefits like never having to physically adjust a switch

#3071 7 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Go look at a PF and look at where the majority of the switches are. They aren't out in the great wide open.. they are in lanes, behind things, orbits, etc. This solution that keeps getting floated is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.. and isn't extendable to the majority of the real work. P3 used the idea to ADD something... real-time ball tracking to enable new ideas. You all are trying to cost reduce a game by removing components.. and substituting a system that is crippled and doesn't actually address the initial application of how playfields are laid out.
No one is debating the viability of optical tracking. It's been done for ages. Heck, kids toys do it. The point is "does it make sense in pinball and as a cost reduction".
And as for just shooting IR around a playfield... notice many Optos have shields around them? And why long range optos like the Myst opto are not standard setups? Light pollution!
I get the whole 'parts reduction' and 'remove physical contact' ideas that stemmed this idea - it's just a DOA attempt at a solution due to its limitations and ineffectiveness as a replacement technology.
Wiring labor is cheap compared to field support.

I think you're getting too hung up on how opto switches work vs monitoring changes on a light grid. Like I'm not proposing some crazy idea that isn't done in other fields of engineering. Plus you're really overestimating the cost of this system. They could shrink something down like the Xbox Kinect and put it on the apron or rear of the game. It wouldn't even have to be nearly as advanced as a Kinect. It doesn't matter if the back of the playfield is a mess of stuff if the game logic can figure out where the ball is going with very few pieces of data (after all, the games already figure out where the ball is with very few switches).

Plus sure, it would be hard to retrofit that system onto a WMS game. But if you're designing the playfield from the ground up, then you design around any potential blind spots in advance.

Anyways, there are lots more basic-ass ways games can be innovative and appeal to multiple people. Why has the industry stuck to the 3-ball system forever? Why not give the player an option like either play a traditional game with 3 balls or start a game with unlimited ball save, but a max game time of 5 minutes. The advance players can still play a long game like normal, and new players don't get so frustrated about blowing through their dollar in under a minute. Safecracker sorta toyed with this idea. Maybe something like you have a minute to score X points, and if you do then then you get a new scoring threshold and the timer resets, if you don't then the game is over when your ball drains.

#3074 7 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Exactly.
That's why people like pinball, because it's basically the same as it was 30 years ago.
For everybody else there's Lexy Lightspeed. Don't exactly see those flying into everybody's collections.
People who want "innovation" should find a new hobby. People like pinball because it's pinball.
I cannot believe how many of you are taking this ball tracking camera to replace all playfield switches idea seriously. Why are you even into pinball if "old tech" isn't good enough for you?

It's not about that old tech not being good enough. It's about exploring new ideas, and lowering manufacturing and maintenance costs to make the games more available.

The joy of pinball is the satisfaction hitting a physical ball around with lots of lights and sounds triggering endorphins. I don't care if a switch is mechanical, optical, etc... As long as it works as intended, then who cares?

#3102 7 months ago
Quoted from KoolFingers:

lolol But you could throw that out your car window doing 60mph, backup to get it, but drive over it, and still make a phone call with it. Today’s phone can’t be dropped 3’ and survive without and sometime with a case.

That old phone’s six D-cells would die during a five minute call. A smartphone can handle at least a half-hour (jk no one uses the phone part of their smartphone anymore)

1 week later
#3295 7 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

You aren’t able to see the difference between the two ventures?
Jpop didn’t have $20 million to blow
And like Aurich said it’s not just him doodling now
But we will see what happens.

The nice thing about pessimism is constantly being proven right, or being pleasantly surprised.

As far as I'm concerned, deeproot doesn't matter until there is a game I can pay cash for and immediately load up in the car.

#3299 7 months ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Damn right, nobody should send them a dime now, and they haven't asked for any so that's good at least. I think the investors for this company are probably morons honestly. Or getting utterly snow jobbed. Or rich as shit and just love pinball, I dunno. It's a dumb way to invest money, clearly. The burn rate alone makes no sense to me. But I can't see the books and projections, so what the fuck do I know.
But there are a bunch of interesting people who might do some interesting things with all that cash, and I'm curious and not really interested in still talking about Jpop nonstop. Fuck Jpop. I think he should be booted from the industry and never work on a game again, hiring him is a joke.
But I'm not really petty enough to throw the baby out with the bath water, for the sake of the folks like Thiel and Nordman I'm interesting to see what happens. And if Deeproot for some unfathomable reason makes Zidware investors somewhat whole? Who could be mad at that, even if it makes no sense?

Certainly. No one wants them to fail.

I sorta wonder if Deeproot would reduce costs by cutting out the distributors as middle men (various pros and cons to this). I don't see any other way they could possibly make games cheaper than a Stern Pro without sacrificing all the profitability. They got a big hole to dig out of and making $1,000 per machine will barely put a dent in it. Maybe they'll offer financing/leasing. Maybe they'll have a Software as a Service aspect. Hopefully they'll do a better job than everyone else at selling accessories and merch for the machines and their owners. Hell maybe they'll build them in Mexico (at least building in Texas is a lot cheaper than a Chicago suburb)

#3351 7 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

DR has to "deliver" games either in person or to a shipper by June 30th. 3 games are supposed to be presented for selection 30 days prior.
If "delivery" doesn't occur by June 30th then "customer" is entitled to compensation in the amount of the "cumulative deposit". Customer will have the option within 180 days from "Delivery date" to roll the credit forward by submitting the request in writing.
I'm just reading directly from the contract. Pretty simple.
Robert actually reached out to some people like myself to get the agreements in before May 31st, which i had forgotten about. And he didn't have to do that.

So you can cash out? That seems like the best option. It's not like they're going to give you the multiple years of interest that could have been earned in the bank/stock market. Maybe buy something when they're ready to ship something.

#3361 7 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

I'm still trying to figure all of this out in terms of a contractual obligation.
Did Deeproot buy out Zidware? I'm guessing the answer is no. So what legal obligation does Deeproot have to any of the Zidware buyers? Again, I am guessing they don't have one. If so, it makes sense that this agreement is called a "Goodwill Agreement." But still, what consideration is being paid by the Zidware buyers to Deeproot that would make the Goodwill Agreement enforceable? Is it giving up the right to sue Zidware/Jpop? If so, Deeproot would have to be considered some kind of third party beneficiary to make that consideration (giving up the right to sue Zidware) valid against Deeproot.
A lot of this doesn't make sense to me.

I’ve always kinda assumed Deep Root has gotten JPop’s patents. That was the only thing of value of Zidware (unless you truly believe JPop is a true visionary that can’t be replaced). And take it for what you will, East Texas courts are well known for patent lawsuits.

#3371 7 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

Even if that's true, that does not explain what the consideration given by Zidware buyers to Deeproot is.

JPop could have sold them for dirt if deeproot would help with all of Zidware's legal liabilities.

JPop is the kinda guy who counter-sues people who he wronged. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities he'd be a patent troll. Williams and Data East used to go at one another in the past over patents and trademarks.

Of course maybe deeproot really just does value the guy's artistic vision and they want to defuse the situation. Who knows...

1 month later
#3677 6 months ago
Quoted from johnnyutah:

[quoted image]

She has some cool art on her portfolio. At least deeproot knows that contract artists are relatively cheap and most pinheads will buy anything that looks remotely good before playing it.

2 weeks later
#3875 5 months ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Back when we had hopes on a game....
I just never figured out how the ball was going to get to the top of the ramp.

Maybe it would just come down the ramp? I see some notes about a magnet lift. It could have been hit some shots, take the elevator, and the ball comes down the ramp completing the "Ride the Cyclone" objective. Or maybe if you hit the ramp going up, it would have diverted somewhere else. Otherwise yeah, there's no way a ball could make it up all the way up that ramp without help along. Or it was just another goal he wanted to do, but never really spent the time to figure out how to do it. Most of the centerpiece in Magic Girl makes no sense either.

#3975 5 months ago

I'll wear socks and slides to go in and out of the house, but people who wear socks and flip flops have something wrong in the head. At the very least buy some tabi socks

2 weeks later
#4153 4 months ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Final update from me regarding who we can and cannot mock. I/we will not be given a list of those considered untouchable and of such elevated status/celebrity, they are above reproach by us commoners. Given my previous lack respect for those of elevated status/celebrity, I suspect I will be reported at some point in the future.
Lets see some pins deeproot!!

Oh get bent. You know it's political. Not everyone thinks the guy is a clown because he was willing to give up his career to point out that some cops are fucking assholes.

It's a political joke that even Jay Leno would call lame. It added nothing to the conversation. No one is really offended but you. You're the one who wants to complain about some downvotes because people don't laugh at the same 8 year old level comedy.

1 week later
#4255 4 months ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

You’ve taken something universal, a plug in amusement device, and now it’s proprietary. That’s the worst part of video game consoles, the vendor lock in.

What? Pinball machines have always been proprietary. Some parts might be interchangeable, but for the most part a System 11 game needs those particular boards and a Gottlieb flipper uses different parts than a Williams.

Or is this because P3 and deeproot kits won't be compatible (a lot of assumptions to get here, but sure)? That seems like an unreasonable expectation.

3 months later
#5347 31 days ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Is 750K a month a real number?
Sounds way out of line.

Seems a little high, but they do have a staff of at least 30ish office people, an engineering lab, and renting a space of 40,000+ square feet. It's mostly a question of how much do they have invested in equipment for prototyping and mass production.

#5435 30 days ago

Looks like a lot of 3D printed parts. I wonder if those are final are just for the prototypes. I wonder how they would hold up in action.

#5488 30 days ago
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:

Agreed. Stern is going to get crushed. Raza already looks better than bksor, gotg, Beatles, Munsters.

Stern has nothing to worry about until anyone else proves they're remotely capable of manufacturing multiple thousand units of a product in a timely fashion.

RAZA could be amazing and cost $5,000, but it doesn't mean jack if they can't keep up with demand.

#5519 30 days ago

I've always thought a swinging target behind a drop target bank could be a ton of fun. Something like try to hit the target while minimizing how many drop targets you drop or clear the bank without hitting the target.

I love the swinging target in the game though. I do think more games need them. It's a simple but satisfying mech.

#5525 30 days ago
Quoted from o-din:

I'm totally shocked they didn't re-invent the classic gobble hole behind a drop target. It was only used on one game.

It looks like a scoop with a drop target in front. That's innovation!

#6175 26 days ago
Quoted from wlf_:

I'm most interested to see how the ramp progresses. With the diverter, changing the code to feed the left flipper more could make it a very repeatable shot and alter things significantly

Not really unless they move the return to the inlane and not in front of the sling shot. (Which they should. It could be fun to combo the ramp if it's the right level of difficult and rewarding. ie don't make it Data East Hook)

#6200 25 days ago

The biggest thing deeproot screwed up was revealing this prototype the way they did.

Now we have crummy cell phone footage (no offense, thanks for sharing), a lot of people heavily dissecting a prototype, and the first impression for many in the core market has been made and it was underwhelming to say the least. Now it’s endless speculation about the price of a retail product based on an working prototype with poor messaging.

I get they needed feedback and some location testing, but there are better ways to do it.

#6459 23 days ago

The only way Deep Root can price a game (slightly) under a Stern Pro is if they do direct sales.

But they have talked about a distributor network, so I’m not sure how likely that is. Yet they also talk about customizing the games in the factory for the owner. Maybe they’ll approach the distributor system differently.

#6467 23 days ago
Quoted from cjchand:

Everyone keeps saying it’s impossible to undercut a Stern Pro.
I’m curious (and too lazy to do it myself): Has anyone priced out the hardware of a Stern Pro? Yes, that doesn’t cover software, design, support, distribution, etc. I’m talking orders of magnitude kinds of estimates here.
If the hardware is, say, 50% of MSRP, then things like production efficiencies could provide a decent edge. If the hardware is 75%+, then we’re talking something different.
And, yes, I know we can’t account for economies of scale. Again, just curious about whether the “can’t undercut Stern” line of thinking is based on fact or is assumed knowledge.

Because no one has been able to mass manufacture a game for less

Even an incredibly lean operation like Spooky Pinball can’t get a game like TNA under Stern Pro pricing, and that game came to them nearly fully developed.

#6527 23 days ago

I don’t blame RM for considering this thread a toxic wasteland. I doubt he actually meant all of pinside is bad. Plenty of helpful people around, but the hyper posters which are 1% of the users but make up like 50% of the replies can get old fast. Especially once it becomes an echo chamber

I also think this style of forum is harder to read compared to something like Reddit, which is its own mixture of a good community and tire fire. Lots of good posts quickly get buried in these long threads full of noise.

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