(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

3 years ago

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20 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (3 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by PinMonk (2 years ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (1 year ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (1 year ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (1 year ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (1 year ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (1 year ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (1 year ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (1 year ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (1 year ago)

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#141 3 years ago

The ferrari for kia pricing comment. Do I think pinball could be streamlined (both in development and production) to keep costs down while keeping features up? sure!

Could you design a table virtually, then transfer that over to the real thing (see wrath of olympus)
Could you... spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on robots that pick and place every playfield component and install them to reduce labor cost? absolutely
Could you have every part made in China for 1/3 the price? Sure, but be ready to fly over there and watch them like a hawk

Here's the thing.. Pinball is a VERY small volume product comparable to other industries. Even if you're the king of the industry (Stern) producing about 15,000 machines per year, that's really not a lot of product (especially one that requires game designers/mech engineers/programmers/artists/testers/production fixture engineers to develop two new titles every year). All that development time for 7,500 units. Who would want to do all that up front work and money when they've never designed or built a pinball in their life? The comment "pinball is easy" is very JPOP sounding. Remember early on when he would criticize all the homebrew games (that were finished and had code) about not having the detail to paint their vent grills? Yet his glass had to be custom cut for his custom cabinet, which also barely cleared the shooter rod? June 30th, 2019 can't come soon enough. I don't want to see them fail, but they are going to realize very quickly what they are up against. All I gotta say is they better have someone in charge that pushes for as many off the shelf components as possible.

#144 3 years ago
Quoted from applejuice:

Please see the updated webpage from deeproot Tech. (Scroll to bottom of page). In summary, i would like to share the following statement :
Jim Askey (aka Applejuice or myPinballs) and deeproot Tech have reached an agreement transferring IP rights in and to Software for Zidware games to deeproot Tech for undisclosed consideration. Mr. Askey agrees to refrain from possessing, or performing any further work on, the Zidware software or related IP and shall promptly remove any online content regarding the same. Neither deeproot Tech nor Mr. Askey will be making any further comments about the agreement or any corresponding particulars.
Thank you all

right now mr k from NY is going "nooooooo!"

#154 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

did that patent end up being granted? anyone have a link?


display with sensors specifically:

US20130147111A1-20130613-D00003 (resized).png

1 month later
#280 3 years ago

Germany? Whatarrrrrrruuuuuudoinnnn ere?

#335 3 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Anybody have the link to JPOP's seminar where he stands in front of a slide projected on wall listing games not made by JPOP? That one was a classic and I could use a good chuckle.


#367 3 years ago

I say a david blaine parody pinball #cheezits

#383 3 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

We are proceeding with John's original Houdini design but not the Houdini name

so ball paths that go to nowhere then?

#397 3 years ago
Quoted from FalconPunch:

A reminder of what JPs Houndi looked like at expo 2016 -
» YouTube video

It's coming back to me.. Left loopback ramp that goes to nowhere, houdini tank that blocked the LCD screen (just like magic girl), and the panhead screws used to fasten down the ramp instead of flatheads (so the ball would bounce). I don't care if it was a rushed prototype, you can buy flathead screws at home depot. Also no spring steel ramp flaps (also easily fabricated if you're even remedially crafty).

HOUDINI_EXPO (resized).jpg

1 week later
#436 3 years ago

all i gotta say is that if John cant build a pinball with a full team (designers, programmers, sound guy, artists, funding) this HAS to be the final final final straw... right?

#517 3 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

You misunderstood. We will be taking a hammer to every PF.

beyond that, im assuming youll be setting up a test fixture to life test pinballs striking the playfield in parallel?

#528 3 years ago
Quoted from Dmod:

Sounds like they may use something similar to the pinball hardtop that OutsideEdge introduced at Expo in October.

Agreed. This is basically thin polycarbonate, same stuff used for bullet proof glass (granted it's much thicker). I'm guessing hitting with a hammer will have no effect (cept you can still scratch polycarbonate) so maybe it'll be a hammer with felt (so you get the impact but not the scratch).

Think about how much easier the Stern clearcoat issue would have been if all they had to do is ship a thin overlay to customers (especially overseas), instead of having to ship an empty box, have the customer pull the heavy playfield out, ship that to Stern, the factory does a rebuild with a new playfield (which is a ton of labor pulling off components and putting onto a new playfield), then ship that heavy playfield back to the customer.

Granted even on an overlay you still have to pull everything off the top layer, but it's the bottom layer that's usually the beast.

This 5 days of deeproot is starting to sound like 5 days of revealing innovation.. Sounds like a lot of it could be existing, but no company has really implemented all of this aftermarket stuff from the factory. I just hope the end product is as good as Robert is describing.

#560 3 years ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

cutting holes in the playfield for mechs? no problem.

» YouTube video

to be fair, I don't see video playing on the cutting.. For all we know only the luminescent is working. If that is in fact true, I'd be really curious what a 2 foot x 3 foot sheet of OLED costs. It's one thing to manufacture flexible phone displays, it's another to scale that up for giant TV's (or in this case, multimorphic display without compromising where mechs can get placed or how those mechs are controlled with wires).

1 week later
#602 3 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

Maybe it's time for him to find a different profession and work on paying people back himself

I don't know how you pay back a million dollars (and still have some minimal salary to live on) without some high risk high return profession (pinball), or team up with a lawyer who is going to negotiate you out of this mess (Robert), or in this case both. Supposedly John was doing sub-contract work as an independent artist between End of Williams and Zidware (beyond zizzle). As much as these announcements by deeproot sound like a lot of hot air, this is honestly John's best chance of getting out of this giant mess.

#612 3 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

but don't announce or reply to anything...total radio silence. When machines are ready, make this huge splash by announcing to all Zidware customers that they can come and pick up their machines

I think that was Robert's original intent, but there are too many pinside slueth's that stumbled on his website.

Quoted from lpeters82:

Is pinball a high return profession?

As a designer, for some. I meant more that the pinballs themselves are low volume, and hence typically high margin. Unlike someone who works at Stern and makes a straight paycheck, it's possible deeproot promised Jpop a percentage of sales.

#637 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

They really need to read the contracts that John has.He was to complete and ship 100% working pinball machines in order to transfer the IP I haven,t opened mine however from what i have been reading they are very far from complete?

but they are complete... GARBAGE


1 week later
#725 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Interesting mention that Barry is working on a farm or produce themed pin- https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/looking-for-a-farm-or-produce-themed-pin

It almost seems like deeproot is trying to find new untapped markets (IE not barcades). I don't know, would anyone still play pinball at a grocery store (and would they care if it matched the theme?).

1 month later
#799 3 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

I can’t recall JPop ever making a Zidware pitch on Pinside

It was early, even I was barely posting on pinside at that point. He made plenty of pitches on RGP and PROC forums.

#814 3 years ago

sounds like jpop might need a raise. like a $200k raise.

1 month later
#882 2 years ago

would that be called a whiteboardwood?

#921 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

"In fact, we have received or are ordering all machinery needed to create nearly every component of a pinball machine in house."

Seems both improbable & hyperbolic, and likely to cause serious issues. How many startups in any sector choose to manufacture a disparate set of components made from totally different materials, using different machinery and techniques, in a complex assembled product using hundreds if not several thousands of components? The answer is that they don't. Because it's less efficient, more costly, and particularly in a startup scenario likely to lead to serious quality problems.

I think it's too vague to make the assumption that "nearly every component" means they are going to reverse engineer every single mechanism (ball through, pop bumpers, plunger, flipper assemblies, sling assemblies). Perhaps they mean that nearly every "unique component to each table design" is going to be made in-house (laser cutter for plastics, CNC and printer for playfields, etc).

#958 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Remember the “solar roof”? At the announcement, the demo panels weren’t working solar tiles

Do you realize how many demos don't work because of aggressive timelines? You should read up how apple faked their first iphone presentation until the engineers could finish eliminating bugs before they started shipping.
How often does someone start up a brand new car company and last more than a year? Or a rocket company that successfully launches a rocket and sends satellites into space?

The Tesla roadster started shipping in 2008, that's 10 years. In another 3 years it'll surpass Scion, a brand created by Toyota that failed to create a market.

2 weeks later
#1029 2 years ago

How do we even know if JPOP will even survive at deeproot? Robert has already talked about "tough love" conversations.

How many of you "not going to buy from any company associated with that toxic designer" would change their mind if JPOP was no longer with the company?

#1044 2 years ago

How did the tesla thread get criss-crossed into the deeproot thread?

#1089 2 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Shamelessly stolen from Linux computer forums of the 90s

and later stolen by fark.com

#1097 2 years ago
Quoted from knobstone:

A brief post and thank you to Robert Mueller of Deeproot for the fantastic interview on the ****** podcast. Very informative on your company and especially acquiring licenses for pinball machines. Looking forward to seeing you and some of your team at the Pinball Expo 2018 in Chicago.

agreed.. great interview, robert comes off less gruff and fluff. Early on he seemed to be in attack mode, and "pinball is easy". He clarifies that his goal is to streamline pinball design and manufacturing. His goal isn't to take Stern down, he just wants to build great pinball in the most cost effective way. While it's true Stern has the most experience, in any business that can sometimes be your downfall because many companies continue to work the same way they always have, whereas a new company building from scratch would have a fresh approach.

#1154 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Copperfield blows compared to Penn and Teller

I've seen Penn & Teller twice. Both times the shows were outstanding, and they always stay after the show in the hallway to sign autographs, take photos, no matter how many people are waiting. What I love about them is that they know magic isn't real, and every show they usually show how one of them is done with clear boxes, and you can choose to see how the meat is made, or close your eyes and keep believing. As far as tricks I don't think you can really top them, they've read every magic book and have seen every kind of magic trick. It's why they have that show BS!, most people can't fool them, but on rare occasion someone does. I've loved those two ever since they first showed up on letterman in 80s, hanging upside down in front of the camera so that objects floated in mid-air. Also it's amazing for any pair of performers to get along for 4 decades without getting in some sort of fight. If someone made a P&T pin I'd be all over it.

#1162 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Anybody think DR should contract with Ben Heck to work with JPOP to redesign Houdini into Ben Heck's Haeluecenogenic Lab Trips? It would be a hard sell to get Ben onboard given the impossible assignment. But if they worked together and brought back the same art style .... Wowza!

that would be like asking a holocaust survivor if they would like to donate to the hitler foundation

#1176 2 years ago
Quoted from mrgone:

He will continue to recycle the same ramps, magnet set up he has already used on Tom,totan,wcs94, and cv.

Sort of like how 95% of Stern pinball machines have a ramp on each side that returns the ball to the inlanes? Or how steve ritchie admits his lower half is EXACTLY the same on every game he designs? Not that I want to defend JPOP, but he does have some good concepts, he just sucks at implementing them.

1 week later
#1234 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Only cost that will have appreciably increased for them is doing stuff for the LCD - though in some cases the effort has been so minimal or relied so heavily on video footage, it's probably not increased man hours.

Gomez claims in his interview with Nate that there is a whole art team now dedicated to LCD art just like they've had for doing playfield and cabinet art. I'd have to say that for iron maiden, since the graphics is based from the video game that probably wasn't difficult. But yea, something like deadpool had to be created from scratch.

Honestly I'm totally for this new LCD era, but I don't know that we "need" all this fancy animation. I just wanted LCD because the hardware was cheaper, more reliable, less power, probably easy to source parts in the far future. If deeproot decides to do more simplistic graphics closer to a DMD (but color and better resolution, sort of akin to how MMr is), I'd really be ok with that.

#1245 2 years ago

Zombie Yeti being snarky:

pasted_image (resized).png
#1254 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

You want pinball to grow or attract new players? You need stuff happening that looks fun on the LCD.
That was one of the reasons WOZ broke new ground.
Also, some of the people saying less resources should be put into the display and forget and it's too costly nevertheless go bananas for ColorDMD and describe it as the best upgrade ever ... which is it?

we want color small dots.. like ben said double height display (128 x 64).. i dont need HD. neither does redemption games. some do, but the highest profit ones are those that are fun. display should always be secondary on mechanical games.

#1283 2 years ago
Quoted from mcbPalisade:

For that matter why don't new pins have USB chargers? People might play pinball just to charge their phones.

i actually thought about that.. 5v conversion is easy, so is adding a port somewhere. some airports still charge a fee to charge your phone (if u dont have your cord). i think a usb port could actually help. didnt the coinbox podcast guys try that on route?

#1293 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The LCD effect will eventually be part of the glass

A world on the glass

So a few years back I was saying no (they were horribly expensive). I'm seeing some of the smaller displays are getting reasonable (24" for $400):

This is measured diagonally, so actual width is 21" (would be good for filling the back half of a widebody), maybe they sell even smaller ones. I wouldn't want transparent just for scoring. If you're gonna do that then just squeeze a 7" LCD in the apron. However, the transparent means you could potentially bring back Pinball2000 without needing special mirrored glass (which makes the entire playfield dark), the only section that's dark is where the LCD lays on top of.
KI_37_120 (resized).jpg

#1304 2 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Please tell me you're joking.

he's not. using head tracking means it creates a 3d effect on a flat screen (and 4k HD you wouldn't be able to tell the difference). It would mean zero maintenance, there would be very low cost (think about how cheap big TV's have gotten). I know nothing beats real, but some people really enjoy car simulators because they'll never afford a $300k exotic car.

#1309 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Hah, you thought doing content for a relatively small LCD involved more work, expand that to a playfield sized LCD with full physics engine and stuff.
Good luck generating the content to make that compelling without AAA game studio size staff and talent, even if you leverage unity.

you need to go over to gopinball.com, those first 2 original titles were created by one or two guys, for free. once the engine is made, its not that terrible laying out a design (code is still hard). go look at the stranger things future pinball table, thats definately one guy.

#1358 2 years ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

What I'm saying is that the technology will get so good that the advantages it poses (as outlined earlier) will be adopted and appreciated by a lot of people, and make the proliferation of pinball grow to more than just niche hobby.

This... there are plenty of audiophiles that swear their $10k stereo system with the antique record player is superior to everything out there, or the flip of the coin of song collectors that swear they can tell the difference between a FLAC file and a 320kbps mp3 file... Then there's the 95% rest of the population that's perfectly ok with 128kbps mp3's, or streaming music through the dozens of services. You can make this comparison with nearly anything
Live concert vs watching HD video later on youtube
Driving a bugatti vs playing a simulator on a high end gaming PC with 3 monitors all mounted to a hydraulic chair to give you G's
Actually going to outer space via virgin to feel weightless vs going on a plane that nosedives to feel "weightless" for 45 seconds
Actually skydiving vs going to one of those giant fan skydiving places

Nobody will ever claim digital pinball will replace the real thing, but I bet a big portion of the population might gladly fork over $5k for a REALLY good pinball simulator (not virtuapin, I'm talking 4k HD, head tracking for 3d, coils that fire when you hit the flippers so you feel it, nudging that really bumps the ball realistically) if I only had to pay say $10 per table (like pinball arcade on steroids), especially if you're someone in an apartment in the city and can't spare the space. Or you fear getting into the hobby because you fear it'll break and you don't know how to fix it (and you can't afford to keep paying a tech to fix it, if there's even one nearby). Or you're someone like me that can't afford the latest Stern (and keep them all because of cost and space), but it would be nice to be able to play any of them.

#1367 2 years ago

If you haven't listened already, Dennis Nordman talks about his career plus how things are going well at deeproot. Though it is a paycheck, he seems like a genuine guy (hence why he quit heighway when false promises were made, which he also brings up).

#1372 2 years ago
Quoted from MarkInc:

Why hasn't anyone come up with a flush mounted LED insert and shallow trenches for the wires for those tough, busy mech areas?

I'm doing a layout that does exactly that.. effectively there is a playfield layer (3/8), and a 1/8" layer that is just LED's and wire traces. Granted I still can't have mechs going through wire traces, but it at least eliminates all those bulky bayonet brackets and makes the bottom very clean. Theoretically it would also eliminate EMF keeping the lighting wiring away from coil lines.

1 month later
#1471 2 years ago

No way deeproot is making virtual pinball. Pinball FX doesn't have any pinball designers working for them and they crank out reasonable original tables. Also most of those older designers can barely work autocad, much less anything 3D. Do you think they are simply drawing up playfield layouts only for some 3d animator to translate it to digital?

#1483 2 years ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Good read. Very happy to be wrong about it being VR pinball. 80's license they just got better be BTTF.

i hope so too, or as JodyG says goonies.. but what if its big trouble in little china? might be a cheaper license.

#1507 2 years ago
Quoted from adol75:

second hand machines can be bought for close to nothing

Yet we hardly see any of those machines make it over here, and when they do the sellers want $1k and up. But yes you are right, pachinko is still huge in japan, so are claw machines. People sometimes go to these places as almost like a shopping center. Some take advantage:

#1511 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Oh I toured Stern once. They were still using wires. It was cute

I would imagine wire harnesses are still simpler to design for a game than doing PCB traces (as archaic as it seems to see giant 4'x8' boards with nails in it). But seeing how good even free pcb programs have gotten, I do wonder if it's equal work up front.

benheck have you ever calculated pcb cost (for GI and coils) vs equivalent wiring? Are they comparable without calculating the labor cost savings?

#1591 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Here's pinball money.
[quoted image]

aint nuttin' like dance combat!

(i actually did enjoy those as a teen though)

1 week later
#1766 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

That's a pretty tall order considering Gottlieb released 14 titles in 1935 alone.

unfair comparison. that was after the market crash and thise 14 titles would be played on route for pennies (not collected in the home) as an escape from misery.. most of those games were very simple and none of them had electricity yet so it would be easy to push out a bunch of titles quickly.

#1767 2 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Also, can't help thinking that if WMS had released 'just' these 5 titles in '95, they'd have sold a hell of a lot more, saved a lot of money on development, and history might have been a little bit different ...
Theatre of Magic
No Fear: Dangerous Sports
Johnny Mnemonic
Attack from Mars

i wouldnt include congo. it might be a hot title today, but for many years it was thought of as crappy for its theme.

#1791 2 years ago

Pinball news has the seminar up

1 week later
#1844 2 years ago

while manufacturing is its own animal (you really need employees dedicated to it), for all we know they are contracting it out to an outside assembly plant. at my work we buy sub-assemblies all the time because its more cost effective. sometimes we OEM a complete product and slap our label on it. im not saying what Stern does is easy, but new companies setup manufacturing all the time (at much higher volumes than pinball). people need to stop believing Stern has some magical formula. they effectively bought sega, transferred the name, and kept rolling out games the same way (with minor improvements). they are still using the same dimpling machine for playfields, same 4x8 plywood sheets for making wire harnesses. im excited to see a video of deeproot's manufacturing process.

1 week later
#1905 2 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

It's funny, you don't really notice how actors' voices age until you see a project like this. Sean Connery did the voice work in the From Russia With Love videogame back in 2005. I was super-psyched about it, but boy did he sound old. Ended up wishing they'd gone with an impersonator instead. I haven't listened to Jane Fonda in a while but I imagine there might be some of the same issue.

3 weeks later
#1946 2 years ago

So I'm guessing that $750k isn't just salaries of designers, rent, parts, etc.. I'm sure a big part of that is building a factory (both physical material and designers to lay things out), so that monthly burn could go down. Who knows what the investors have put in, what Robert is putting in, what Robert's other companies are playing the "cash cow" until this company gets off the ground.

I just don't know why people can't learn from previous endeavors. JPOP didn't succeed because he had almost no business plan. Heighway promised the world and hemorrhaged pre-order money. If every new startup would start out more like spooky, we might actually see more businesses stay in business. Hell, I even had high hopes for Homepin at one point.. Making arcade stuff and pinball parts to keep cashflow going, making all the parts for the first pinball so you could theoretically supply retailers. Then the CEO turned into a PR nightmare, his first pinball sucked, and now he's shuffling pre-order money around to keep the business floating because he can't crank out more than 20 games a month.

#1955 2 years ago
Quoted from Jerryuop:

None of us have given them any money yet, so I don’t understand the people willing them to fail. I hope they are extremely successful and produce a bunch of high quality games. The extra competition will only serve to make all of the companies work harder to earn our money.

I think most of us do (including myself), but when you hear big talk, then delays, and hemorrhaging money you have to wonder how long they can sustain, and even if they do start building product what's the risk involved of not staying in business because they can't sustain cost vs income (so who do you go to when your machine fails, see big lebowski project). Spooky was risky, but I still bought AMH because his business plan made sense (and he's only 3 hours away so I could drive there with my pitchfork), and having someone like Ben around at the time certainly bought some credibility.

#2021 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

You'd have to make the inside cabinet very bright to act as a backlight

Pinstadium-like lights

Quoted from benheck:

You'd also have light losses with the pair of polarization filters

I think consumers can accept this, they already accept a darker movie experience when they watch the 3D version. They also accepted pin2k (5,000 units wasn't a failure at the time, nor today. Williams killed off the company because slots were more profitable).

Quoted from benheck:

You'd also have to track or somehow detect the height and position of the player to make sure the FX are drawn in the correct spot for perspective

Correct, at least within reason (accuracy probably only has to be every few inches). This can be done several ways (webcam with good software, multiple lasers that detect distance being blocked)

Quoted from benheck:

visor - nobody is going to wear that. Sorry. It's the secret reason why VR is dead.

I honestly don't know how VR ever exists in a public space. I think it sorta took off in the late 80's because it was so groundbreaking you were willing to put up with sharing a visor, look at blocky graphics, and have a cord yanking on your back. VR at home does make sense sorta, however most of us don't have living rooms with giant open spaces like they show in every ad.. Hence your point on your podcast talking about how flight sim/racing/floating games are perfect for VR because you can experience them sitting in place on your couch.

#2065 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

People want big bulky collectibles so their basement looks like a bar to remind them of when they were single. It's the secret (not so secret?) reason Heigheway's modular system would never take off.
Remember this is a hobby where people pay a $17,000 premium for different decals on a wooden box.

while people dream of having that awesome basement or outbuilding with the inside decorated like an old arcade, i'd wager only 5-10% of people in the hobby actually have the space or money to do so. Go look in the "gameroom thread"

You see a lot of the "home arcade" people re-posting photos to show updates, but most people are posting photos have 2-10 pinballs in their basement, garage, many unfinished. If it is finished, it looks like a standard basement (standard carpet, standard painted drywall, minimal decorations on the walls). A lot of wives tolerate this hobby and don't want the house modified drastically to serve some nostalgic itch.

I have 3 pins in my living room because i only really have space to fit 7 in the basement because the rest is used for storage. id be happy with some sort of VR or GOOD virtual table, and maybe a handful of real pins. i dont need a 2nd full time job as an arcade operator trying to keep 30+ pinballs running.

1 week later
#2143 2 years ago

I love the people in this thread rubbing salt into wounds. In 2011 there was Stern and JJP was JUST announcing their new company and 1st title. You didn't even see early concepts of WOZ until mid 2011. Like Frolic said it was a different landscape. Did many buy in because of FOMO or thinking it would be another BBB? Of course, but honestly the concept wasn't that far fetched. Wrath of olympus got designed for free, but because it didn't get the 100 pinball minimum (I think it got somewhere around 70) it couldn't get manufactured. However, those willing to assemble their own playfields could do so if they bought the parts and 6 did get made (and they work).

If John didn't squander money (IE lease a giant building and buy a bunch of capital equipment and hire 2 artists to work on the same game), but just tinkered with a design like Scott Danesi did and got a WORKING game before taking deposits, it would have had a much different outcome.

1 month later
#2310 2 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Deeproot? "Their" website is up and running just fine.

deeprootfunds? Yes, just fine.

http://deeprootpinball.com, nope!
deeprootpinball down (resized).png

downforeveryoneorjustme (resized).png
#2322 2 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

movie office space.

This is me when I agree with someone wanting a hip-hop themed pinball, and then realize everyone else disagrees.

#2333 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

He needed a boss back then, so hopefully that helps with the current situation

He has beyond a boss, he has a boss who's dumping a shit ton of his money in this company, and a bunch from investors. I guarantee there are daily morning status update meetings going on over there.

#2361 2 years ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

And Micheal J Fox would still never sign over release of his rights, and Christopher Lloyd has also expressed no interest.

Then how did Zen studios manage to make their own version of it, it surely has both of their likeness. I think it's far easier today to get them to sign off than it was back then. Not like either of them are hot hollywood stars right now. I'm guessing (like others have said) that Robert is saying it's not available for purchase..... because it's already been bought. And I get it, if you have a license you can't talk about it until everything is approved and signed off, and I respect that. But if it IS BTTF, risk of trusting a new company be damned I would be hard pressed not to plop my money down before even playing it if the layout looks good.

Quoted from adol75:

I didn't even know actors owned rights to the characters they play. I wonder if that's why on WOZ, Judy Garland is mentioned separately.

It's true of pretty much anything. Demolition man had it's backglass revised because wesley snipes owned the rights to his likeness, and therefore could reject art. Just look at Heighway Pinball Aliens. There's a reason why Sigourney Weaver's likeness wasn't in it, either it was too expensive, or someone else already had the rights to her.

1 week later
#2406 2 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

If their burn rate is $9mm per year (as was posted a few months ago) and their net profit is $2,500 per pin, their breakeven is about 10 pins a day every day of the year, or about 14 pins a day running their factory 5 days a week with a two week holiday. I don't know. What kind of volume does Stern do per day? JJP? American? Does anyone know that can say?

Stern: From what both Gary and Jody Dankburg have said, they need to make between 55-60 per day, which is roughly 15k games per year.
JJP: If I had to guess, if they are making at best 2,000 games per year, that's barely 8 games per day
AP: no clue, and I doubt they would want to publically say what they make since they are such a young company.

3 weeks later
#2482 2 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

If it weren't a real company, you would think a lot of the pinball design veterans working for them would have jumped ship by now.

Nordman left Heighway when they announced at the show they were ready to go into production in what.. a month? when the whitewood was still in design.

Of course there's a difference between promising the world to customers, and working for deeproot who at least admitted early on that they weren't ready to reveal at TPF like they had hoped. Still, pinball manufacturing in general is not very stable and designers can sense when things aren't going well.

1 week later
#2550 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Not sure how many of you have ever met Barry Oursler and talked with him at any length, but as a Pinbot owner and fan of Barry's work, I have had the chance to talk at length at several Expos and now at TPF. His statement was made in earnest, and from the twinkle in his eyes (one that I have not seen since Bally Williams closed their pin division) he looked sideways and smiled, but just enough so you could barely tell.

Barry doesn't joke around, he tells it like it is. If he says he's happy and thinks customers will be happy with the product, it probably will be.

1 week later
#2561 2 years ago

someone posted a link to deeproot's patent for a pinball cabinet on deadflip stream the other night. im for innovation, but im also for JUST MAKING A PINBALL MACHINE.

20190405_201059 (resized).jpg
#2578 2 years ago
Quoted from fnosm:

This reminds me an awful lot of Heighway Pinball design.
Look at the backbox and the cartridge for the glass.
I going out on a limb and calling BS that this has anything to do with Deeproot.

it is deeproot, their name is on the patent of the full pdf.

#2668 2 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

plenty of patents get filed all time and no products are made.
Car manufacturers constantly file patents and never go through with the features
with that said, putting in my 2 cents - I have no interest in swappable playfields.
The feature made the heighway game cabinets very strange looking and the design really bothered me

so do many companies, but they usually have 20 million plus in sales, not a brand new pinball company trying to get their first machine out so there is some revenue coming in. they are still burning money.

#2705 2 years ago
Quoted from ultimategameroom:

Has deeproot made any mention of showing a finished or proto machine after they announced that there wouldn’t be any at TPF?

From what I hear, it'll be done when it's done. TPF was obviously the best place to show something since it's a short drive. To show games at say MGC or expo would be a heck of a drive (both for the games and the employees). Sure, you can reveal a pinball anytime (just look at Stern releasing black knight 2 days after TPF), but at some point you have to bring games to a show so people can play them, especially if you're a new pinball company earning trust.

#2717 2 years ago
Quoted from Zavadoza:

Here's a couple clues though: JPop's RAZA is first release. Then Barry's game, then Dennis Norman's

JPOP, that explains the delay. I'm assuming deeproot had no choice but to push this through first to satisfy the existing customers. I sure hope they started with a blank sheet of paper, and had Barry and Dennis review his layout on a weekly basis.

1 week later
#2761 2 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine: If I'd have the money I've ordered the new Black Knight at first sight.
I couldn't. - Now that I've waited a couple of days I notice what I may not like (too hard, knight does not shake, repetitive music) so I want to play it first.

i would.. its hard, music is repetitive (hope they fix in code update).. also shield is also falling off already

20190419_145955 (resized).jpg
#2787 2 years ago
Quoted from billyboy:

Look at the daily "for sales" in the market. It's huge everyday, because people are trying to sell to buy the next new pin

agreed, nothing wrong with finally prying some older titles out of collector's basements. I'm seeing a ton of games go up for sale in the past week, and I think it's due to both black knight and wonka coming out.

Quoted from billyboy:

There will be an eventual semi-freeze in the market on both used and new games. The available space and money will reach a tipping point

Or perhaps the market just shifts. 8 years ago it was mostly high-end collectors had all the modern Williams DMD games, leaving only alphanumeric and early solid state to the bottom end collectors. With more and more HD display games with great animations and sound, it starts to make DMD look slightly dated.

#2848 2 years ago
Quoted from EDMAN:

Just curious...did JPop get any permissions from the Mars Attacks illustrators (original trading cards/movie) in regards to his original artwork for RAZA?
The Alien is uncanny

He did not.. if I'm not mistaken he also had a robbie the robot and a godzilla in his art. That's not to say any of that will be in this version, but yes at the time he had unlicensed art on his prototypes.

#2854 2 years ago
Quoted from kdecgp:

Is a backbox even necessary anymore?

It hasn't been "necessary" since solid state was introduced (atari put scoring in the apron). The backbox serves as an attention grabber on route, same way slots have LCD's on top with flashy graphics. One could argue you could have a home version that eliminates the backbox (only install a backbox for routing), but is that too much of a customization?

Also does that change the shape of a pinball too drastically?
Google Zingy Bingy, you'll see how weird a game without a backbox looks (not going to post here for obvious reasons)

#2880 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

The $750k quote was from December. Robert also said it will ramp up as they get to launch.
That's $3,750,000 just counting December to April. Yikes.
I'm sure there's a ton of cool stuff in the halls from all that cash, but no products rolling out the door.
And do all these staff just go home after? They seem like permanent hires, so this cash burn at this intensity will only go up.

and they still havent setup manufacturing. even if you farm that out, no 3rd party is going to build production fixtures for free.

#2895 2 years ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

Not sure why people thought Python was losing his mind...
[quoted image]

dude, i said what i said for a reason. thanks for making this thread nsfw

#2924 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Jeri Ellsworth could make a ball-tracking ASIC in her sleep.

man i would love to see her get back into homebrew. maybe you two can join forces?

#2968 2 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

Here is a quick video of John Papadiuk talking about Retro Atomic Zombieland on the Ben Heck Show back in 2011.

lots of people design a pinball for a decade..
yea, they're called jpop
#davidspade #tommyboy

#2989 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

His games suck ass.
The best one he ever made he didn't even finish (World Cup Soccer - thanks to whomever at Williams took that project over).
There's never been a single more overrated "classic" pinball designer than Jpop. I do not and never will understand the cult.

i remember playing it new in the arcade, not knowing or caring about the designers back then. didn't even know about TOTAN OR CV until i got in the hobby 8 years ago. i remember having fun playing it at the time, even thought about buying one once. its such a tainted game i dont think i could ever own one. i know that sounds silly, but theres also so many other good titles out there and only so much room in your house.

#3002 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

It's funny to me the number of people who think it's some Herculean engineering task to develop a system that could track the ball on the playfield without mechanical switches
Gerry, you really need to work on getting the P3 to more shows...

they have, its called optos (williams), proximity (heighway), touchscreen surface (multimorphic). heck i know kugler used a cheap webcam to detect dice dots on his homebrew casino pinball. also if musk can make a self driving car using nothing but cheap cameras (no lidar) i wouldnt think tracking ball position would be terribly hard

#3054 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I think that is really dismissive of some of the very smart engineers that work at Stern for example.
Anything is solvable with money and man power, especially at the level pinball is at. A more accurate reason in my opinion is there is no business case or return on some of these ideas.
When JJP bailed on the pirates mech, that was an engineering failure due to lack of experience/smarts. They said so.
When Stern isn't putting video camera ball tracking in games, that's business smarts.

so much this.. where i work i can have the greatest new design in the industry (and have cost savings), but of the ROI isnt less than 3 years it gets shot down immediately. if the camera replacing switches idea had merit, any manufacturer would jump at it. think about the cost of all those switches, and the wiring going to them, and the connectors.

ben once had a wacky idea of somehow replacing all the insert lamps with pulsed lasers and mirrors. totally feasible, but a lot of work to proove it out.

#3056 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Of course it is. I've seen this argument before and it's always stupid and offensive.
There are PLENTY of people who work at Stern because they WANT to. They'd rather work in the pinball business than somewhere else. Many people have turned down higher-paying jobs to work in the pinball industry.
Most pinball companies aren't just hiring people who are otherwise unemployable off the street. They are hiring talented people who want to work on pinball machines.

and so much this. i interviewed at JJP and jack did offer me a job, but i turned it down based on pay and benefits. ask kugler about how he took a pay cut to work for AP. most new designers are taking those jobs out of passion.

#3066 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Wiring labor is cheap compared to field support.

Yeaaa, but it's a LOT of wiring. ask anyone in the industry what a pain it is to manufacture, not to mention design a new harness EVERY single time you design a new playfield.

Physical switches are constantly getting mashed needing re-adjustment, and sometimes switches can cause ball hangups. Ever notice how modern cellphones have very few physical switches anymore? That's because touchscreens are more reliable. They also prefer you charge using a wireless pad so you don't wear out the charging port.

When people talk about cameras, we aren't talking about a webcam.. It can be a cellphone camera (which is tiny and cheap and can mount in tight areas on the playfield). If a replacement cellphone camera is $5 retail, it's probably less than a dollar in volumes direct from the manufacturer (and you don't need 13 megapixels to detect an object. Hell you don't even need color). I'm willing to bet if you found the right chinese supplier that was trying to dump 2 year old cellphone cameras you could get them for 50 cents all day long. Tool up a small plastic mounting bracket. $.50 camera + $.25 bracket ($.75) to replace a $2 switch (and cameras can detect multiple areas replacing multiple switches).

I guess the only caveat is how long would the camera stay clean, and how often would you have to clean it?
Could it slide out under the playfield so you don't have to peel away layers of plastic to get at it?

#3137 2 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

Sorry he burnt his bridges and I despise him and will never like him. His overall attitude is poison and that's contagious in an organjzation. The sooner the cancer is caught, the better. Jpoop is cancer in this industry.

I think people forget all the things he did.. he'd make statements like "check your ego at the door", yet he would comment on homebrew games not having painted vent grills even though his shooter rod didn't line up with the ball (or have a groove).

"Starting a pinball is easy, but finishing it is hard" - Yes you've proven that point.

He'd ask for volunteer help, and then either ignore that help or cop an attitude.

It wasn't that he failed to build a complete working pinball, he failed at three (yet took money on all three even though he knew he could never deliver the 1st without someone bailing him out), and it still didn't function because of failed mechs and failure to pay the programmer working on his game.

He never apologized to the buyers, instead he sued them.

I have no doubts John has some imagination, but I fail to see anyone supporting him unless they don't know his history.

1 week later
#3245 2 years ago

i wish deeproot luck. i hope they deliver a more packed playfield than what stern does currently for $5k

#3345 1 year ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Lastly, I agree with Kaneda that it is not fair that people are holding money back from making other purchases (pinball or otherwise) expecting us to imminently launch.

I would hope nobody is actually doing this. Even if you announced a month from now that you have a fully working whitewood, I'm assuming there's still a lot to do (play testing, coding, animation, sound, artwork, tweaks, building up a production assembly area, ordering parts / tooling). Everyone should be buying whatever pinball looks interesting to them right now. You should never be waiting for the next thing, because there will ALWAYS be the next thing.

#3366 1 year ago
Quoted from jellikit:

6. Star Wars topper receives final approval and begins delivery.

holy crap! that thing isn't released yet either??

2 weeks later
#3437 1 year ago

It's retro alright.. remember 7 years ago when JPOP started working on his 2nd game and didn't finish it? good times

#3625 1 year ago
Quoted from adol75:

Stern has been keeping the industry alive for the last 20 years and managed to stay afloat while every other competitor sunk. They deserve to be praised for that and for still being the only ones able to deliver 3 new games a year.
JJP took it a step further by going back to the cost no object design that rules the industry during the golden age, with a far superior build quality, deeper integration, and toys, toys and more toys.
So seeing someone bragging and spitting on them, who came out of nowhere, with no track record in the industry, who is late of every single promise he made, and entered the business by saying "pinball is easy", is quite irritating to say the least, and clearly not brash but plain stupid.

This /\

Gary Stern: played with parts in the service cage as a kid, became a salesman for Stern Electronics in the early 80s. He knows a little bit about pinball and what sells.

Jack: Routed pins in the 70s, knows what does good on route, what parts fail (LTG also does their service, who also has a long experience of coin-op)

Robert: Pinball is fun, I'm going to buy a dozen. 6 months later, I have money and a media company, I'm going to start a pinball company and hire whatever designers are left.

No offense Robert, I really hope you figure all this out, but even if you're 6 months away from showing RAZA I just hope you realize the uphill challenges you have ahead of you. You should have swallowed your pride and stopped bragging well over a year ago.

2 weeks later
#3808 1 year ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

Going global on a first release could be a logistics nightmare if they're new to it. Better to have the machine all set up for 120v and nail down domestic before going overseas. They only have one chance at a first machine launch.
I'm sure other countries will come with time.

this.. spooky refused to sell amh outside of america because of issues with voltage and safety. they were too young to take on everything.

#3814 1 year ago
Quoted from yaksplat:

Just thinking about UL, CE, CSA, EMC, FCC and everything else makes me cringe. I've dealt with all of that before and it's a process that takes time to not only get through, but also to generate an internal process for submission and tracking.

CE is a cake walk compared to UL because CE means self certified. If it's UL rated that means someone has taken the time to make sure proper materials are used, that things "fail safe" if they do fail. Often that comes at a price of not only better materials / components, but it's not cheap to have UL certify your product (several thousand just to have a meeting, then testing, then documenting), plus you have to pay a maintenance fee for UL to come audit your production line to make sure you're still making the product the same way and not changing parts without their knowledge.

FCC is a nightmare too. Even if all your components are FCC certified, you have to have each board certified as an assembly, then if you have multiple boards all those boards have to run and make sure there isn't interference between them, and they don't cause interference with any devices you might be carrying within an acceptable limit.

1 week later
#3926 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

a rolling stone gathers no moss

How about people that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones

#3951 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Besides rapid prototyping, why are we bothering with inhouse PCB fab, etc? That stuff is commoditized... It reeks of Heighway again where they think they can do it better/cheaper by doing it themselves... (instead of letting 'experts' excel at their trade).

It's not always about better/cheaper. Often processes are brought in-house because it's faster, and you have control. You realize how often a vendor can cripple a manufacturing process because "their line went down", or the BOM goes up because they decide to re-negotiate the price? This isn't necessarily a bad move honestly. Remember when Stern fought with churchhill cabinet? They almost brought CNC in-house over it, but in the end they made up (but it could have had serious effect on production).

We have a stratasys 3d printer at work that cost us $120k, and then there's a $15k maintenance fee. Would it be cheaper to just farm it out to local 3d printer services? Of course, but you wait in queue with everyone else. It speeds up development when you can literally throw in a job before you leave, and have parts waiting for you the next morning.

2 weeks later
#4195 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Speaking broadly about interchangable playfields, as an operator, I don't want to store playfields that sit around and don't earn, no matter how easy they are to swap, and I don't want to pay a premium for the extra hardware/engineering required to have swap-out capability that I will never use. When it comes time to sell a machine, with a swap-out system I can only sell to those with the proprietary swap system, vastly reducing the available market.

Maybe it's different with pinball because the most expensive part is the playfield. But in the early 80s with the invent of the Jamma connector, video game operators were gutting any cabinet they could find to put in the next pcb to earn again, often re-using the same buttons/joystick. This was especially true in the late 80s when fighting games brought back the interest to arcades and they were coming out so fast with street fighter and mortal kombat. It's why you now see so many retro arcades with the wrong cabinets and control panels. I don't know the history of Stern / JJP / American Pinball is, but it would sure be nice if the harness connectors were standardized to be the same (like a JAMMA). Don't use all the pins? fine, don't use them. I mean how much more could it really cost to have longer connectors/headers? Not necessarily to say swap playfields, but maybe troubleshoot boards. Game having boot issues, swap the playfield into another cabinet. Not saying play it (though if it were the same board set I suppose you could swap out the code). Just saying it could help figure out if it's the board or something on the playfield. I don't know how many times I've lucked out I had a similiar system Williams game and I could simply pull a cpu, driver board, or power supply from another game to see which board is having the issue.

Wasn't it Heighway that not only had swappable playfields, but the flipper mechs could be pulled off in a matter of a minute because there were flipper holes in the playfield so you didn't have to loosen the bat screw? Guess it depends on the operator, some don't mind working on games right there but in a crowded dark bar I would imagine that could be frustrating, and simply swapping in a new mech would be easier (and you could rebuild it later in a well lit workshop).

#4200 1 year ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

the Star Wars release did so horribly and was their demise so in essence RFM release couldnt save them

Neither title did "bad", they just didn't do "enough" for WMS to justify keeping the pinball division open because slots were more profitable. Just look at the end of williams:

4,414 - 3-97 NBA fastbreak
4,016 - 6-97 Medieval madness
2,704 - 10-97 Cirqus voltaire
2,711 - 12-97 no good gofers
1,369 - 04-98 - champion pub
3,361 - 07-98 monster bash
903 - 10-98 cactus canyon (don't know if this counts, they cut this off the line early to make production space for Pin2k)
3,525 - 06-99 star wars episode 1
6,878 - 01-99 Revenge from mars

RFM sold more units than the original attack from mars. It sold more than any WPC-95 game. I think think there were 2 things holding back Pinball2000:
1. The monitors made them heavy as hell
2. The dark glass needed to make the holograms show up made everything on the playfield dark.. it was also special glass that had to be ordered.

A modern modular hologram pinball today would probably do pretty good.

1 week later
#4229 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

don't be ridiculous. We need more art drips, followed by some cryptic videos, followed by a "this is a game changer" pod cast, followed by a prototype showing up at a show, followed by "shipping in 2 weeks" for another year.

JPOP was hired in september 2017, and there was talk of this company even before then. It's been approximately 694 days (2.6 years) now since this company started.

#4257 1 year ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

So if you’re a collector, for a P3 game to make sense, you have to have a reasonable % of the other collectors to also have a P3 so you can sell/trade the game kits. Otherwise if you want a new game that isn’t a P3 you’d have to sell your entire collection of P3 kits and the P3 cab/root system, since the market of people who can buy just your kit is way limited

this is not a bad point.. its going to take a big player like stern or JJP to make this a viable option. JAMMA became a standard in 1985 because most arcade games were being designed in japan and they forced the standard. im not saying we need to standardize cabinets, but perhaps the connectors to hook up playfields should be so there is at least that option to do so.

#4327 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I seriously doubt there is much money to be made in digital pinball. There never has been, not sure why there would be all of a sudden

I think there was a virtual pinball company that was trying to be coin-op with existing titles, I never heard anything more about them.

Then there was another company that was trying to turn digital pinball into a gambling device in vegas, I don't think anything went beyond a few test units in Ny, NY

#4334 1 year ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I only watched part of the video but I didn't quite understand how they turned digital pinball into a gambling device, it seemed very confusing. Their pacman rip-off was funny though.

Part of it was skill to earn money, I think part of it was gambling on whether you were going to make a shot? (IE put a set amount into a pot that says I'm going to make it). I agree its too confusing even to a pinball player. i cant imagine what the average person thought of it.

#4370 1 year ago

JPOP works okay at best with a team and management, but perhaps the pressure to fulfill his deal with Robert will set him straight knowing if he screws up this time, there's no more bailouts.

3 weeks later
#4700 1 year ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

I am guessing Deeproot playfields are some kind of composite material.
So, they can't have all these clear issues.

its also possible its still wood but they have a better process. spooky figured out a better way to clear. my guess is there are better water based clearcoats that bite, or perhaps its 2 different clears. one to bite into the wood, and one that adheres to that first clear better (and hardens faster) so you dont have posts smooshing the soft top layer. its not like car manufacturers are clearing the body and waiting a week for it to dry before they finish assembling all the exterior pieces.

#4710 1 year ago

just don't put on 35 coats of clear

1 week later
#4812 1 year ago

i keep seeing adds for a "ceramic coating" they apply to cars. i dont know what tge chemistry it is, but it is a real thing that prevents stone damage to the front of your car. surely the coatings exist, its all about what you want to spend. spooky claims they had to spend more to get the better coating. also interesting that "special when lit" podcast played an old topcast episode where pat lawlor was pushing for diamond plated playfields, while python anghelo said management was against it because it made the playfield last forever and then they wouldnt buy a new pinball.

1 month later
#5155 1 year ago

I think patenting anything in pinball is not spending your money wisely. The market is what, 30k pinballs a year at best? Even if you're stern that supposedly has 85% of the market, how much money do you think Stern really has to take a copyright infringement to court? I've worked at many companies and it can easily cost $20-$50k per court case to defend a patent (and often you don't recoup that money, especially if the company they are fighting decides to file bankruptcy). If anything, patents are there so they have a leg to stand on when the cease and desist letters go out.

2 weeks later
#5350 1 year ago
Quoted from frankmac:

Is 750K a month a real number?

Sounds way out of line.


"TWIP: Is there any concern at deeproot that the launch may never happen?
RM: Zero concern. We are spending over $750k a month now on this project, and that will increase through launch. That is unsustainable without a launch in the short term."

And that was 11 months ago.

#5707 1 year ago

so heres my take after ingesting this for a bit..

no pinball game could ever live up to the hype that robert projected. as mentioned, there are a LOT of features taken from existing games (cyclone ferris wheel totan, star wars toy on a spring) but at least john admits he tries to borrow old ideas. i highly doubt there is going to be some even more packed version of this game. with that said, clearly jpop can eek out a game if enough pushing, team support helping, and tons of funding are behind him.

layout looks fun, art is great (really digging the bright green over dark blue and black. reminds me more of big bang bar)

would i buy one if the price is right? probably not right away. john is very tainted, and this is a brand new company. id want to see how game 2 goes. but im happy for deeproot as a company trying to push the envelope. stern (minus keith) has been playing it very safe for a long time.

#6040 1 year ago
Quoted from Jarson:

Also, the flippers rubbers were old and dull.

how does this happen? You're a PINBALL COMPANY. Even if it was play tested like crap before it got shipped and you forgot to swap them out, you are at a PINBALL SHOW. someone go buy a dozen set of rubbers from a vendor there.

#6194 1 year ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Not saying build a Stern at all, not even close, but I am saying if you choose to bad mouth Stern, you better deliver one hell of a game and this game does not deliver enough to warrant Roberts attitude. Three of the latest Stern games all destroy this game, i.e. Deadpool, Jurassic Park, Iron Maiden.

Not a huge fan of deadpool, but it really is amazing what Keith was able to build with the same budget as other games from Stern. A good game doesn't mean throwing a bunch of mechs / toys (especially regurgitating old ones). The game has to flow nicely, and the designer has to be smart about adding features. That helicopter blade on the return ramp of JP probably cost less than a dollar between the screw and plastic, but it's sorta satisfying. Also that spinning truck newton ball is pretty innovative.

#6227 1 year ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

My point was the amount of effort to cast those with a cheap resin printer in MUCH higher resolution is not a whole lot more than what they expended to make them look crappy with a filament printer. Given both paths and the importance of the prototype reveal, why not put your best foot forward for very little money and not much more effort?

I sorta thought the same thing, but I also thought about the fact that resin printers "can" take much longer to print (not ideal during crunch time), plus resin printers are nasty to deal with compared to FDM. Of course that's not to say someone couldn't email the file to an outside printing service. Hell there's a ton of companies that will not only print it, but sand it and paint it and make it look like a production part (I've done it for work).

#6305 1 year ago
Quoted from kvan99:

I’ve never believed that 750k a month number, think about it an average professional employee makes about 5k to 6k a month in Texas add benefits and real estate r

The early photo DR posted of the design team showed about 20 people. salary is probably 4k a month average but factor in vacation/holiday/401k/health insurance it's probably 6k
6k x 20 designers = $120k
Factor in some of the team from the other division to work on art/code (assume a team of 6), add another $36k
Assume Robert's facility is 41k sq feet:

I don't know what commercial real estate is, but if you assume it's close to renting any property it should be about $1/sq foot
My electric/gas bill for my 1400 sq foot house is about $150 month, so multiply by 30x: $4500
salaries: $156k
rental: $44k
heat/power: $4500

Still haven't factored in various things to run a business like capital equipment (computers, software, network equipment, office furniture), production area (air lines, benches, power drivers, conveyors, parts bins, forklifts), any other equipment they decided to buy or lease (CNC, pcb pick and place machines, presses, injection molding, machine shop for fabrication, vacuum former, direct printing machine)

Maybe $750k/month is a bit of a stretch, but it's probably not that far off during the early phase (and I'm also guessing at numbers, they could be much higher)

#6315 1 year ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

For those of you who think Stern is not making money hand over fist on pros, you are crazy!

I think pros do ok, I would assume about $1k over BOM cost. Premiums have a much higher profit margin. I swear Gary once said that the LE's effectively pay for all the R&D for each new title, so all the lower tiers are strictly sale price minus parts/labor/overhead.

#6354 1 year ago

well after that summary cant wait to hear it from Robert himself. i also predict deeproot is going to turn into another homepin. few people are going to want to buy a pinball from such a negative company.

1 week later
#6802 1 year ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Robert clearly said the Flipper power wasn't turn down . Having an opinion is one thing but stating that opinion as FACT is another

Even if it wasn't purposely turned down, typically at shows the AC power is weaker because there are SO many machines plugged into a hotel that isn't prepared for it.. so if the AC is low, the DC that gets inverted is also low.

1 week later
#6888 1 year ago
Quoted from 6S3NC3:

The only good memory of the trip was meeting up with Gweempose.

brian is a kind dude

#6914 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

The magic is missing

It's called low risk design, and save as much money as you can. About the only exception as of late is Keith Elwin's games.
Pretty much every Stern is an Italian bottom, very few have a 3rd or 4th flipper.
Pretty much every Stern (maybe all of them) from the last 8 years all have a ramp on each side that returns to the inlane.

Franchi told a story about the making of munsters. Borg had a mech he really wanted in the game, Gary told him to take it out. He started ripping everything out of the prototype and chucked the matchbox car across the room out of frustration.

1 month later
#7247 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Williams was giving away “free” toppers in 1986.
Is this really the “value bar” now?

sometimes they would, and often it would be a single piece of plastic and an off the shelf beacon light. other times it would be a really creative piece of foil that would look like water falling that apparently cant be reproduced in 2020.

2 months later
#8076 1 year ago

I would be really worried if I were Robert right now. Not just because of delays, but this Covid isn't going away soon. The government just extended social distancing until end of April, and I'm guessing each state will follow suit (and it may go longer). There's over 3 million unemployed (highest ever), the stock market is barely hanging on. If I had to guess, established companies like CGC, Stern, American Pinball, JJP are all going to take a hit with fewer orders (if any). I see stuff I want on markets, and I'm like "I'd love that, but I'm not leaving the house.. especially to go to some stranger's house I don't know". Maybe you trust a distributor to pickup a new game, but what if you need to sell a game to make room / make money, but your game isn't selling because people aren't buying?

It could be dark days for 6-12 months, and I'm not sure they have that kind of time. You could argue they are primarily an investment company, and maybe they got out before the crash and know when to re-invest at the bottom and they'll be just fine.. but maybe not.

#8116 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

You guys can believe whatever you want, doom and gloom, blah blah blah, but the economy is coming back much faster than you naysayers and experts think.

It took almost a year for the economy to recover when the SARS virus hit, and this seems way worse. I don't ever remember a virus being so bad it required people to stay home to prevent the spread. Define "much faster"

#8125 1 year ago
Quoted from iceman44:

This is all setting up for an early May "back to work" mantra because the government did such a fantastic job of keeping the death count so far below 100k, the curve flattens and decreases and its simply time to go back.

Are you crazy or being sarcastic? The government did a TERRIBLE job. We saw how the virus spread across europe for months, and they played it off like this was no big deal, it's just the flu, no way that's going to affect us or come over here (yet they didn't shut down international travel until it was too late). Currently we are at more than twice the cases of china, more deaths already than China (with 1/4 the population). Hell, I bet new york state alone surpasses the number of cases of China by tomorrow:

#8128 1 year ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

China is under reporting.

You could say the same for us.

#8273 1 year ago

Listened to k-show. Summary:

* Covid shutdown china supply chain, had to re-shop for parts domestically for higher cost
* Boards for 15 games JUST came in from local supplier
* Were going to see multiple versions of RAZA
* They were going to have a physical version of 3d space cadet, but had to retheme because nobody from EA games and microsoft wanted to deal with the license. It's going to have hollywood CGI graphics, and the plan is to release that in 2021
* First RAZA's would have been delivered early April
* RAZA was never meant to be launch title. They don't want to clog production, want to move onto the next game. Robert will be upset if he has to make more than 500 of them.
* Sales Chain - direct sales is cheaper (domestically). International - distribution partners
* How much has changed on RAZA since houston show? Ramp has been adjusted (not as steep). Code had to be adjusted because of it. Playfield and cabinet art changed. There will be 4 art packages (2 space themed, two nuclear green).
* 6-8 modes programmed
* Robert sometimes loses passion working on multi-industry for 2.5 years now. Gets re-invigorated everytime he plays RAZA because he's proud of what they were able to create from scratch.
* Respects Gerry from multimorphic for pushing the envelope
* JPOP has other games he's working on besides alice in wonderland and magic girl that are less complex that will likely come out first
* Dennis Nordman left in December. He had several titles he was working on. Robert won't talk about the departure.
* Robert said before covid-19 he would have been able to put out 9 titles a year. Thinks all manufacturers are going to be pulling back on sales
* Team ready to turn on production at a moments notice.
* The person that posted about deeproot on here has been dealt with legally (hence the retraction)
* Streaming not a good way to reveal games. Needs to be hands on
* JPOP is good at conceptualizing a concept and prototype a layout without spending a lot of money
* Barry is a workforce, could make a table every week if he wanted to.
* Dennis Nordman worked remotely in Chicago and only came down on occasion.. he develops a general layout and let's others fill in the blanks
* Robert originally had the hot wheels license, Jon Norris had an amazing layout for this theme. Robert is working on a license that's hotter and harder to get than harry potter that this layout is going to be used for
* There's 5 different areas with coding (narrative scripts), translated by steve bowden, then goes to allison and matt that scripts the code, then the code goes through an engine, then the unity frontend GUI is done by a separate studio.
* RAZA never leaves the 2 office locations, not even for Bowden.

deeproot image (resized).png
#8298 1 year ago
Quoted from RCA1:

At what pace?
Didn't he also say they just received 15 board sets? That does not sound production ready.

I think he meant when things resume (IE stay at home order is over, china has shipped large quantity of production boards at a reasonable cost), the production area is ready to build product because the game is complete. They obviously couldn't start production tomorrow. It also sounds like his goal is to make RAZA buyers whole and isn't focused on building many games beyond that (unless there is a large demand).

2 weeks later
#8423 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

Location play, taking a serious hit. Quarter drop for location will take a bit, possibly 2 years to come back to normal. Those quarters buy new pins.

It'll be at least a year before there's a hope for a vaccine, and at least 2 years for a cure (according to bill gates who is in touch with the worldwide health organization). Even IF people were willing to wear masks, you're still touching a public item that others have touched (and probably not washed their hands), not to mention drinking and pinball go together (can't drink with a mask). Since routed games make up for roughly half of sales, that's a BIG hit. Ask any operator, none of them are buying games (and the ones they have on pre-order are getting resold).

#8454 1 year ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Unless the financial backing for both JJP and AP decide to absorb the hit...they will both go under this year. As far as deeproot goes, they will either continue to show they can operate in the red longer or they too may call it quits and never even launch. Stern has a ton of overhead which could be problematic as well. Spooky should be good at least thru the production of R&M...and then? Unfortunately, I do think there will be a thinning of the herd when it comes to manufacturers. Interesting times ahead for sure...I wish all in the business of pinball the best of luck...I’m pulling for you!

well said

Stern will probably be ok, but they have a perfect excuse to scale back (though you can't shrink a 120k square foot building so that overhead is fixed).

Based on history (capcom, data east, SEGA): JJP, DR, and american pinball's future all depend on what the investors want to do.

Spooky will be just fine. They have the least amount of overhead, they have nearly everything in-house now, the only supply chain issue they "might" have are boards (china). They are building rick and morty's for at least another year, and by then the pandemic will likely be very tame.

3 weeks later
#8502 11 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

RM did say that they want to use that hunger for new stuff when the Covid ban lifts, so... better do it quickly.

yea, especially since Stern production has ramped back up. They don't put out a game out now, everyone is going to hungrily go buy a TMNT. Without pinball shows to play at, a lot of people are going to be dying to play a new game.

1 month later
#8699 10 months ago

Barry has COVID

2020-06-29 (resized).jpg
3 weeks later
#8806 9 months ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I still have hope. They were just about to launch and the worst pandemic in over 100 years happened. Strange you guys can't give them any sort of understanding, even when the world shuts down.

I'm a product designer, and you better bet management doesn't care there's a panademic right now. If you use the covid excuse in a meeting for not keeping your projects on time, you'll get all the stories about layoffs and paycuts at other companies, and you should thank your lucky stars our company is doing well. I work 4 days a week from home and one in the office, but if I need to get sh*t done, you better believe they expect me to go into the office with mask on and get it done.

#8812 9 months ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

The difference is your argument refers to continuing with business as usual.
It‘s a different thing when you‘re just about to get things in place, build a line and hire people and this thing hits.
They can‘t return to normal when there never was a ‚normal‘.

According to the updates, they had a factory in place and were ready to start manufacturing pinball back in late February (ready to show at TPF at the end of March). Yes, they haven't actually fired up production (maybe a small pilot run to vet out the manufacturing setup), but it sounded pretty normal to me. I can't think of a single reason they wouldn't start making machines if it's truly ready. If they think they need to show it at a pinball show, they are wrong. Rick and Morty has NEVER been at a show and it sold out in 4 hours (and there are still people wanting one). TMNT has never been at a pinball show, and lots of people are buying them.

#8823 9 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

A start up with possibly proprietary boards, mechs, etc I personally would like to See or play their offering before jumping in blind

True.. but it DID show up to one show so the public did get to play it. Not like they couldn't show us what's under the hood on streaming video. I realize it's tough to sell games when you're a new company, but every company has to start somewhere (even spooky started with essentially nothing but a podcast and ben heck as competency). Look at how many people bit to buy a zidware game or Skit-b without seeing it (or a business plan). Granted that was a different era (most have wised up), but I would think the better thing to do is move along business as usual (build a small stock of games), announce they are for sale then plan production runs accordingly to sales. Sure beats burning money. I guarantee there won't be a public pinball show until at least next year, and even then the attendance is likely to be lower. Just look how empty Disney is right now:

2 weeks later
#8877 8 months ago

I assume even if robert has funding he'd be a fool not to take that money since it sounds like those loans are forgiven so long as you are a legit business with employees.

#8947 8 months ago

another snippet of art, wow. I mean, I suppose all those artists he has working for him should be doing something.

#8964 8 months ago

I'm slightly excited not because I necessarily want to play one, but because something is actually happening. It'll be interesting to see how everything is executed, especially manufacturing (and whatever secret sauce that's under the hood).

#8971 8 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

Assuming RAZA and MG are the primary focus, nobody is seeing workers at the factory yet .... looks like AIW is at LEAST a year out from being officially announced and then potentially another year before they ship it. Just wanted to say damnit. Just so much damnit.
I'm seriously perplexed as to why they would choose to release two original titles based off of "nothing" instead of a proven time worn "and more relatable" title like AIW? Is this a JPOP vision they're chasing money be damned or?
How many Disney based cartoon pins have we seen? Man, it just looks like they're betting on the wrong pony here.

they committed to fullfilling promises to execute goodwill in order to hire JPOP. also would you really want the first title out of the gate to be a disney license? almost feels like the original titles are practice while the company gets its bearings. same reason you never buy the first production car off the assembly line, they are still working the bugs out.

#9014 8 months ago
Quoted from ThisNotes4U:

Maybe they have been F***ng with us and have thousands of ultra modern pins ready to go. Three or four titles let's say. Go DEEPROOT!!!!

that's not usually how manufacturing goes, especially in the amusement industry. Stern builds about 60 pinballs a day, and at the end of each day those go on a truck to somewhere. Storing thousands of pinballs in a warehouse is a waste of money. The only companies that warehouse product are ones who sell seasonal product, so they spread manufacturing throughout the year.

1 week later
#9121 8 months ago

"More delays than any pinball manufacturer in history!"

#9152 8 months ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Sure, but they didn't start out with comments like "Stern sucks" and "Pinball is easy", and ridiculous brags about shipping "dozens of titles" with Ferrari quality and Kia prices. JJP and CGC have spent far more time and effort building their games and far less time bragging about it.
Extraordinary claims should require extraordinary results. I think everyone (probably even Robert now) realizes that pinball is not easy.
My point was that even if deeproot manages to ship a game soon (and I hope that they do), they don't have much justification to be telling people to "suck it".

jack never said pinball was easy, but he was pretty vocal about stern cutting costs.. then he realized how expensive pinball really is to make and his "fully loaded game that didnt cut corners" woz quickly went from a $6k to $7500 game by the time it hit production. only the early pre-order buyers got that low pricing.

#9246 8 months ago

I'd also like to point out it's been 62 days since TMNT was released. 2 months and they release a completely new game.
How is deeproot ever going to release more titles than any other manufacturer?

1 week later
#9522 7 months ago
Quoted from DaveH:

Unfortunately my expectation is so low that I assume 9.21.20 will be the date they will start teasing the next set of teasers leading towards the date of the teasers after that, followed by an unfortunate email stating that they are reorganizing to change their structure for the teasers that will follow that right around the corner.

#9577 7 months ago
Quoted from ThisNotes4U:

Imagine the the largest ever reveal, out of nowhere. 3,800 **** units packaged for shipment. Four days later: Over 2 thousand licensed games have been assembeled for months, available by Xmas. Re-tooling was completed on line three AUG 3rd and these playfield will be are next be thing. FEB

Yes, deeproot is just sitting on 15+ million dollars worth of pinballs just waiting in a giant warehouse for that reveal date.

#9762 7 months ago
Quoted from Wildbill327:

[quoted image][quoted image]

so long as it has this clip in it

#9921 7 months ago
Quoted from CLEllison:

My memory fails me but there is/was a foreign pinball manufacturer that made components of the playfield modular. I really think that was such a brilliant idea specifically for the OPs. No more wasting time on site trying to troubleshoot or repair. Remove a couple nuts and disconnect a plug and boom the whole assembly comes out. Aesthetically it's less pleasing but none the less I think it's brilliant. I hope DR has kept the OP's first and foremost in their design.

You're probably thinking of Heighway. Not only were entire playfields swappable in under a minute, you could pull the flipper mechs out quickly since there were cutouts of the flippers (no more removing flipper bats). Their idea was that instead of replacing coil sleeves, coil stops, or springs on location, you would simply take out an entire assembly and work on whatever you needed to on a bench.

#10311 7 months ago

omg take my money now.. clearly this is a well run company (you guys had a countdown for weeks to make sure everything was setup)

#10798 7 months ago

Pinball is hard.. so is this lockdown bar. Don't hit it too hard or you'll cut your hand.

#10816 7 months ago

the more I look at the backbox, it reminds me of a TV entertainment stand.. and now I can't unsee it

deep_center (resized).png
#10937 7 months ago
Quoted from dung:

Love all the down votes on my multimorphic posts. There is no hype. There are no massively long speculation threads. Even the 2020 multimorphic announcement thread has a whopping 80 posts. There isn't interest. You have a handful of fan boys just like you do with every other manufacturer, and the majority voted with their wallets.
Its not because I am old, I am 33 atm. I am a software engineer by trade and my house is filled with all sorts of tech projects. Heist doesn't interest me, I have played lexy. Had the chance to get lexy really cheap second hand with a few other playfields and passed. It was a dud.This coming from someone who has a penchant for collecting duds due to them being different/rare/obscure/weird.
Downvote away, but again sales numbers are everything. In the case of low production value is everything. p3 doesn't have either. No amount of argument is going to change it. If they come up with a winning design pinside will show interest and until then it isn't but a lot of hot air on the part of the fan boys.

None of the multimorphic tables have impressed me, I REALLY don't like that the center is a big screen and limits the design to just the sides and back. Though I will say Heist looks interesting. Also one thing that Gerry has that no pinball company has is a steady business of selling boards to both homebrew and small startups like spooky or American Pinball (mostly because Josh Kugler is used to programming on PROC). So what if his pinball business is slow, he always has that cash cow filling his pockets.

#10957 7 months ago

Pinbar is interesting.. I don't know that we need a touchscreen to go through menus. Also completely crippling a game because a touchscreen goes bad (or the calibration goes off) is certainly a concern. A switch might be "archaic", but it can be easily and cheaply replaced for about $3.

The pneumatic lifters seem overkill. I don't understand what's wrong with sliding a piece of glass. Also anyone that's ever driven a hatchback knows that those start losing their power after about 6-8 years.
IMG_4294-1 (resized).jpg
Screen-Shot-2020-09-22-at-11.00.59-AM (resized).jpg

#11224 7 months ago

After seeing the video of Steve Bowden clicking through, the pinbar is growing on me. I still worry about reliability.

#11277 7 months ago
Quoted from JodyG:

They seemed to completely hide manufacturing capability from the announcement, which leaves me with the impression they have zero at this time. If that is the case, I'd be shocked if games were available to ship before Q3 or Q4 2021.

The fact that Robert talks about octo manufacturing, and now we see the bottom side of the playfield printed like a schematic (every single component and wire labeled IN COLOR) which adds cost, I'm guessing manufacturing is going to be contracted out. The playfield in a sense becomes a giant drawing to follow along. I know gottlieb used to print on the underside, but gottlieb also built over-engineered tanks (and were the first company to go out of business in the 90s).

playfield schematic (resized).png