Alice in Wonderland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2013
Celts
Haggis, 2021
Magic Girl
Zidware Pinball USA, 2017
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland
Zidware Pinball USA, 2012
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Arcade Edition)
Deeproot, 2020
Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland (Xtra Edition)
Deeproot, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider thunderbird.
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No doubt the industry needs a pricing shakeup, because MSRP is getting way out of hand (going up and up with no sign of stopping in sight). If DR can change current craziness and do it, through their motto of “Pinball for the Masses”, this’ll be a new era for silver ball entertainment. Here’s hoping DR can bring some balance back, through decent pricing for the consumer, of top designs with fun and unique tables. Other industries figure this out, so why can’t pinball?
I too hope they will be the disrupter Robert claims they are going to become. Bringing pricing down can be nothing but good for us all. If they can modernize manufacturing as well and reduce old high costs areas of pinball, that is welcomed too. If they can put out a loaded machine with all kinds of fun mechs on it for the price of a Stern Pro, look out Stern. Themes won’t matter as much as price and loaded mechs. Love to see octagon manufacturing doing away with costly outdated lines and slow hand soldering all over the machine.
Quoted from BobSacamano:Money Pit (1986)[quoted image]
Money Pit, that’s the DR investors theme...
Hoping that DP comes out swinging with lower pricing than everyone else. This would impress the market instantly and set a new precedence. People are already talking about JJP pricing going up even more. Don’t know how they will sell many machines at even their current high pricing. The used market factors JJP’s high pricing in and is one of the reasons JJP games resale prices are so poor (POTC is the only exception, because of very limited run. Start making them again and watch how fast used POTC games drop in value). DP’s slogan of a pinball in every home, indicates lower pricing. Whomever can beat the price of a Pro, the pinball kingdom is theirs.
Quoted from pookycade:So unless they are willing to lose money on each sale, or have developed a secret build efficiency process we don’t know about or use cheaper materials then it seems highly unlikely that they will deliver a substantially lower price. Stern can set price due in part to being the market leader but also due to large economies of scale that DR can’t possibly have at this point. It’s why it’s been so hard for these other companies to truly disrupt Stern. Barring some major deep pockets willing to lose money for a while, DR does not have enough revenue to scale up the design and manufacturing process to thereby lower the price below Stern.
Lol, they have already been very willing to lose big money over the past 5 years and have sold nothing. If the market is to be disrupted, it is always through price point. It always boils down at the end of the day to pricing, no matter the product.
Having been a manufacturer on a global scale of between 400 to 500 products, it always was pricing that made the difference, no matter the quality. If pricing is higher than competitors, your product sits on the shelf and collects dust. Maybe a few dedicated loyalist will buy no matter the price, but that is the rare exception.
Quoted from razorsedge:Citing the above, I'll put forward my own questionable suspicions or predictions.
-Deeproot has an updated Alien ready to go I rekon, P.Bros layout and basis, I guess 6-7k. It adds up. Here are some reasons why I suspect this.
It is worth remembering, people consitently point out how Millions of dollars is being thrown around .... but with the tacked on assumption that it is all being wasted. My assumption is that on the whole it has not been wasted, but invested in various ways. Of course a proportion goes to waste, but I figure most has been put to smart use that has set them up well. Qualifying that for context.
So, there is RAZA as a given. RM says a "higher end game" (more later), but really DR needs Multiple titles to launch, ideally. I'm going with one more Unlicenced and a Third that wants to be a "sell like HOTcakes" Licenced Theme. Alien fits the bill well, demand if done "well", execution would be critical.
Deeproot has been "burning money" for so long... actually I would more realistically analogise to pouring in money, which is great as long as there aren't any gaping holes in the pool. It's invested then, rather than lost. As much as they are due now to stop pouring in money, I do not think they will be planning to MAKE any money for At Least the first year. That would be a long term plan, consistent with what RM has said. This would suggest they will be happy to sell their games for Cost or even Below Cost to produce. I think this explains some of RMs confusing messages re price point. "We're going to make Feraris for Kia costs! (but only for the first 12 months though)". "RAZA is a High End game" . Hmmmm, I'm saying that as a DR startup "Special", he is going to sell you his High End RAZA at Below cost so that you can buy it for Less than a Stern Pro would cost you. Zidware claimants should still be extremely impressed by this gesture. Profit comes much later. In 2022 you may still be able to buy freshly produced RAZA but it might cost you 12k.
"Why would they do that, that is Stupid?, giving games away at cost?". No it isn't stupid. High value games (JJP, CGC, AP level) costing Less than Stern Pro's would Absolutely Fly off the shelves if they are good games. The Pros of doing this would Far outweigh the cons. Just "paying" to steal some market. They rapidly build a customer base. They get their first releases out on mass to get broad feedback or real world test data. People get Good games at a super discount, startup the love. Plenty of DR games go onsite. People get familiar, instant presence. Money actually comes in the door, significantly reducing funds "burn rate". Do this for a year and the first 5-10 releases, be able to make at least 100 games a week to start, with room to expand to demand within months, you're second bigest manufacturer by end 2021.
Now, DR need a Killer licence. Iconic to remember. Something Everyone knows, well thought out layout and ruleset... with Awesome theme Integration. DR also allowed for and encouraged cooperative/contract/colaborative game production. Hw/PB Alien stands out like a sore thumb. "Oh but the Licencing for this would be "prohibitive"!! ".... of the "wasted" tens of millions, well what if RM placed a huge dump at Disneys doorstep some time back, just to secure at their cost/loss something BIG for a first licenced theme? . But if only they had a tried and tested layout and ruleset to tweak slightly??? .... oh, hang on!
Now they could potentially also demonstrate straight up their ability to make games for other companies. A decent feather in their cap for more contracts, if they can pull it off. It would explain the Freeplay store bulging with additional spare parts all the time, that would likely never be needed just for a couple of hundred original Alien. Part stocks should be getting thinner on the ground not getting wider and more available (but note only certain Playfield parts, not so much System electronics). I can see fair possibility of basically the same Alien game with some minor playfield tweaks/improvments, but be essentially the same or better to play. Likewise with rules and assets. If there is no display in the playfield it would almost certainly have to be in the apron centre, it gives half the atomosphere to the game. I think they have piles of them Ready To Go for us$6900 a pop. They'd be gone instantly if they looked/played good.
For after 12 months of below cost games .... you want your biggest other things kept for full profit, so it makes sense to hold back Alice in Wonderland and Magic Girl until you are ready to charge full tote odds of 13k for them and proven some releases already. Confidence .... Christmas 2021. That way you can also include any updates or fixes to your virgin software and hardware systems so that these High Priced games are worth as much as possible in value and reliability.
Heighway Alien Re-Loaded september 2020 FTW!
*Not because I want one, I already have one, but because it is an Awesome title .... only pity is there aren't more of them about for everyone to experience what a great game it is, and that it wasn't built on a better thought out platform. The clues point at it being a real possibility, and it would serve their need very well.
Interesting points, if they were wise enough to employ the technique, all pinball competitors would be shaking in their boots. Win over a customer base at low price point, was exactly what JJP did, when they sold WOZ at $6.5k. Some years later, WOZ banana edition sold with less mechs and features, at almost twice the price. Major disruptor in the market place would be loss leader pricing. This is exactly what Amazon did many years ago and now they are Goliath in the retail world. I remember Jeff being questioned by many and even puzzled that he was not making a profit for years. He always said, I’m not worried about profits right now, but looking to seize market share for the future. That is exactly what happened and now Amazon is the largest retailer in the world, with huge profits pouring into the company coffers.
Quoted from iceman44:You notice how this part wasn’t addressed right?
They just solidified the breach of contract claim if it’s even worth the f ing effort
Why wait almost a FULL YEAR to bring in some media beta testers!!!
Just more excuses and incompetence.
I live right here and buy a shit load of games.
I could have told them what they needed to know months ago
Just f ing amazing
The tragic reality is not for us the pinball community, rather the sham DR is for all the trusting investors that have poured millions into another Zidware style ponzi scheme. We now see why Dennis Norseman left and Steve Bowden is silent, along with all the other associated hired industry professional pinball people at DR. DR did not need the “pinball media” to come and tell them they were not ready, if they really were a legitimate company. Because DR has employed numerous pinball professionals that have been in the industry for many years. Those people could have and probably did say, Robert were not ready. What is happening is exactly how ponzi schemes operate. That’s the reality.
The interesting thing is: looking at the photo of the supposedly innovative RAZA machine spending millions of dollars to develop it and others, shows nothing really innovative at all. DR shows no octo manufacturing, because they have none. Multimorphic spending a small amount of money, on the other hand is innovative in what they present as a 21st century new type gaming machine. Multimorphic has done in a few years work, with little money, what DR should have done and more in their 5+ years of work, added to what JPOP had already done for 8 years. Again, this reeks of an investment scam or incredible gross incompetence.
This whole DR mess smells like a rat. Why would a legitimate company release all their titles and story lines up front if they were actually planning to make pinball games? Everyone knows how hype for any pinball machine significantly diminishes, after just a few weeks following announcement. Non licensed titles for sure lose big time appeal. Isn’t this the same antics Zidware used?
If DR was a legitimate company, the only real innovation everyone wants to see is octo-manufacturing working. DR has zero manufacturing working of any kind. DR is not a real legitimate pinball company till they actually have manufacturing that can produce deliverable goods. Anyone can make a couple of machines to demo and hire some designers etc to show off concepts. Pinball media interfaced with 3 people and that’s all from the sound of it.
No manufacturing lines to observe.
No finished working games.
Few actual people working at DR.
Big empty, but ready for show auditorium.
No actual PF innovations revealed.
5 years later and DR still doesn’t have needed parts to at least piece together other concepts, for announced machines.
All supposed innovations are peripheral in nature, with almost none of the things the pinball buying community is looking for in actual game play.
All this activity smacks of just busy work, striving to show investors something is happening, but really isn’t. This appears to be only a faint dog and pony show of a company that has not sold one deliverable product in over 5 years of work.
Welcome to Zidware 2.0!
The more I think about this, it appears to be somewhat of a potential con job. DR invites 6 people and makes them sign oppressive NDAs, which threaten legal action on each one of them if they give their true opinions. They have been used in the con job as key pawns to blame on the “you’re not ready to reveal” fiasco.
They slapped a bunch of no value added nonsense, on a still not working RAZA, to show the investors they’ve scammed, that they’re doing something. Even though none of what they put on RAZA is actually real benefits, to the pinball playing experience.
No company or person in their right mind would get involved with JPOP as a business associate with his track record. Just as JPOP scammed everyone before, RM appears to have done an even more elaborate con, using investors money instead of pre-order money like JPOP did. This has been too elaborate of an effort to be sheer incompetence. No one is this stupid, after blowing that much money. Very cunning indeed.
Listening to some podcasts about DR. Why is this so difficult for some of them to figure this out? DR doesn’t have to do any real improvements to RAZA, because they really don’t plan on launching it. They never have, which is why 5+ years later they’re still not ready and RAZA doesn’t look much different than JPOP original, except for a little lipstick put on the pig here and there. DR is in the business of acquiring investment money only. Pinball is one of the pitches they use to get that investment money. Manufacturing has secretly never been in their plans and the reason it still doesn’t exist today. That’s too much real work for a traveling snake oil sales wagon like DR.
Cary Hardy said while he was there, with the [shill] pro camera crew filming, he didn’t want to be that one guy criticizing DR with the cameras rolling. Very clever of RM to shut everyone’s mouth and make it appear something big was in the works. Even though nothing of real substance was happening. 3 false starts to DR and they’re finally running out of excuses.
People say no big deal because they’ve not taken preorder money. But it is a big deal on a grander scale in the world of pinball. DR is creating an even bigger stench for pinball, than JPOP, Andrew Heighway or Dutch Pinball ever thought of doing. No investor in the future will give anyone wishing to create a new pinball company the time of day. Like hard working Gerry at Multimorphic said, just think what he could have done with over $30 million dollars. He created real pinball innovation in a short amount of time, with less than a million and is delivering pinball as promised.
Quoted from benheck:I pitched this to Spooky for TV license games. You'd sell DLC for modes based on seasons that aired after pin was released.
The gimmick was it'd be tied to toys. Some blank spots on PF with a connector, you buy the Toy + DLC for like $300 and plug it in. Toy has a crypto unlock for the content because guess what you've already downloaded it haha! Basically a toy as software dongle.
Charlie HATED the idea. But this is pinball. Logic doesn't apply. Stern could charge $1k for this gimmick with Walking Dead: The Complete Saga and people would break their wrists whipping out the wallet.
So is that the reason why Jetsons has so many empty spots with no toys? Lol
Quoted from pookycade:Correct. This is what is just so bizarre with this group. From a manufacturing perspective total disaster because they have nobody competent heading the entire venture. If they did it wouldn’t be 5 years later and no pin. But even from a venture play it’s a total disaster. What competent startup publishes the big reveal only then to have 5 people very publicly come in and tell them it’s all unpolished crap ? You bring those people in BEFORE you announce the big reveal. I mean forget what all of us think about what they are doing, doesn’t matter. But their investors are probably making lots of angry phone calls right now. Robert works for them and if he doesn’t deliver I wouldn’t be surprised if he gets tossed out and JPOP gets put out to pasture too. The problem with this group as a large funded venture effort is they had to knock it out of the park and introduce whole new Pinball concepts while everyone else played catch-up. Appears they failed on all counts. With most venture funded efforts you know it’s pie in the sky claims and you hope the company you invest in finds a workable business model. With these guys you can’t have a business model if you don’t even have a product to sell. It must be a very grim and stressful time inside there. I do wish them the best. You hate to see money flushed, careers wasted, and the emergence of a new company fail. But short of some Hail Mary pass I don’t see how they pull this one off before investors cash out and ask them to refund the remaining balance.
The point is, this venture was never meant to be successful. It was and is an obvious Ponzi scheme or rather Zidware 2.0 from the beginning. That’s why nothing really works on RAZA and still looks like an early prototype after 8 years of so called work. DR is a clever scam and not really cleaver with anyone looking at it from a real business perspective, that even a child can see. DR was created to accumulate investors money, just like Zidware was created to scam early adopters money. Sure original intent may have been “somewhat” otherwise, but once people involved realized pinball is just too hard, they resorted to full on scamming by manipulating the narrative. RAZA is a machine designed to let people think they are doing something. DR/RM doesn’t care if it really works or not. It’s all smoke and mirrors and plain to see.
Quoted from nate1981s:Except it can't be a ponzi scheme really due to not taking money from customers and they are obviously spending the capital they raised on creating pinball. A failed company possible but ponzi scheme unlikely. Kaneda had a podcast talking about DR and I think what he said is far more likely.
A Ponzi scheme by definition does not just mean taking money from retail customers, in fact that is not the meaning of a Ponzi scheme at all. Customers are not promised profits from a retail sale. They are only promised a product. In a Ponzi scheme they put money in and get a return from new people putting money in, till it all collapses. It qualifies as a Ponzi scheme taking money from investors thinking they’ll get a return.
By definition DR fits this quite well:
Ponzi scheme
/ˈpɒnzi/
noun
a form of fraud in which belief in the success of a non-existent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.
"a classic Ponzi scheme built on treachery and lies"
Quoted from brucipher:I've been no deeproot cheerleader, doubted them from the beginning (and still have a lot of doubts), but I don't really understand this statement. How have they been bad for the hobby and the industry? They haven't taken anyone's money (in fact they have given some people money back - and I still say those who didn't take the cash settlement were suckers). Sure, RM has been pompous and egocentric, but that's just forum drama. I guess you could argue that supporting Jpoop and keeping him in the industry is bad, but again, not really hurting anything. It's certainly been entertaining watching the train wreck that is deeproot, so from that standpoint it's provided something to the hobby.
This has been very bad for the industry at the next level up, away from taking customers money it is much worse. The scam has been many millions higher and anyone now trying to raise capital for starting a new pinball company, will receive a very cold reception by investors. So yes, this has been bad for pinball, even worse than taking much smaller amounts from customers. Don’t know why some people keep excusing them for this failed manufacturing operation, by saying they’ve not taken customers money. They’ve taken many times more than that and now will be nearly impossible for any legitimate contender to raise capital for a similar venture, just as it is for anyone to acquire preorder monies from customers, because of Zidware 1.0 and Heighway and Dutch pinball. DR escalated the scam to new heights.
Quoted from wamoc:Are they promising quick returns to their investors? Are they using money from new investors to pay existing investors? It doesn't seem like it, which would mean it is not a Ponzi scheme. A failing business, sure; but not a Ponzi scheme. Just taking money from investors and building a business trying to give them a return is not a Ponzi scheme. By your explanation, every single failed business (which is a majority of businesses) was a Ponzi scheme (someone had to put up capital to start the business).
Take a look at DR promotional material offering and see what they say about getting monthly quick returns and it’ll change your mind. Yes, these kinds of things do use investors monies to pay other investors. It happens all the time and NO every failed business is NOT a Ponzi scheme.
Here’s my play by play of today’s stream...
...unbelievable no real progress on this eight year old design of RAZA. Seems to play like nothing but a brickfest and no player seems to know what’s going on. People start by looking at the pinbar options for a long time (no pinball playing), rebooting pinbar what seems like over and over, then play for a minute or two, with the ball not able to achieve much of any objectives. Then player looks back at the pinbar options again, for what seems like forever (no pinball playing). Then another few minutes of brickfest play, then ball ends with player back looking at all the options on the pinbar.
Fun doesn’t seem to be built into RAZA...people watching so bored that chat window has slowed to a crawl, because so many have left. Won’t let Steve B. play, because that would reveal there’s nothing going on in the software or game play wise either.
At the hour 20 mark, no player has achieved a multi ball. Game has no flow... nor has any player accomplished anything interesting at all. At 1 hour 30 mark, finally a multiball has been achieved, but the balls are just flailing all over the place, again achieving nothing...
Hmmmm, how many are in for this exciting new pinbar, with no flow and some occasional pinball playing experience??? (Lol, thinking about cancelling my order)
By now, finally, most everyone realizes this might be the most investor elaborate pinball Ponzi scheme ever created. It now appears DR has never had any REAL intention of manufacturing very difficult to make, pinball machines. This is Zidware 2.0 and always has been. Nearly 18K posts about vaporware.
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Midlothian, TX