(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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357 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (6 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by PinMonk (4 years ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (4 years ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (4 years ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (4 years ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (4 years ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (4 years ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (4 years ago)


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#6810 4 years ago

Flippers are often weak at shows. Sometimes by design I’ve heard. But if so, why? Because jacked up flippers might break some plastics? Jesus, if anyone can afford to break a few plastics it’s the manufacturer of the fucking game.

Alice Coopers flippers were so weak at Allentown the first time I played the game that it was impossible to make one important shot in the entire game. It was boring as fuck and left me with no fun experience to remember. Why a manufacturer would purposely leave their prospective buyers with this experience is mind boggling.

Of course I’ve since played ACNC at a great location that keeps its games tuned up, and it plays great. I love the game. But for two years I had nothing positive to say about it because my first experience was so needlessly disappointing.

4 months later
#8288 3 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

The facts are real if you open your eyes:
Many people have lost jobs they can not return to and income they can not recover
Most businesses have lost money they will not recover
When this is over some businesses will return to normal fairly quickly, but many will not for a long time.
We are on the tip of facing another mortgage crisis.
Subprime auto loans will come to bite us in the ass
The US is printing and handing out a crap load of money - we don't know the ramifications of this yet
Low oil prices are great for some, and devastating for others - it will cause industry layoffs and bankruptcy
Sports have shut down, can't replay those games and get back that money - that's going to trickle down and hurt a lot
No sure how you can say we know nothing

In the beginning of the year some money people were predicting slow down in 2021. If that was the case, what’s it going to be like now, with the country gutted in 2020? No jobs, no money, no spending. And a lot of people’s health is going to suffer too. Making things worse.

And then there was the whole bond inversion thing, which always negatively impacts the market a couple years after it happens. Hmm, so 2022 and 2023?

Not to mention all the fake financial instruments built on sand out there that really aren’t any different than the sub-prime fiasco from 2007/8. That chicken will roost before it’s all over.

Plus the fact that the 10 year bull was really stoked with perennially low interest rates, and now those can’t get any lower.

This “healthy” economy isn’t very healthy at all. It’s just been manipulated to high heaven. That never ends well, when there’s nothing left to fudge.

7 months later
#13237 3 years ago

Wake me up when the games are on the line. Or when there’s a line.

Just wake me up, ok?

#13415 3 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Here's hoping Food Truck shows the true DR and changes pinball as we know it, and promised!

#13418 3 years ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Imagine if deeproot had made the new Guns N Roses .
With the ability to play people over the internet , the amazing light rails and articulating spotlights , new ball sensor technology , over the top theme integration such as symbols on the pop bumpers and drumstick ramp , a camera that puts you in the crowd during a concert and takes a selfie of you with Slash , more assets than you can poke a stick at , amazing graphics and immersive modes and gameplay , to name just some of the features .
Raza gives you a theme no one cares about , average gameplay and the only Innovation is the pinbar , which doesn't seem to add a lot .
If DR made GNR lots of pinsiders would have been forced or happy to change their opinion . There's no denying how much has been put into that pin . Raza is average at best , the proof will be in the sales .
With theme being everything these days , I don't see a lot of sales in the next few titles for DR .
If they had spent their money on more popular titles like The Goonies instead of the pin bar I think they would be in lot better position now .

Facts. JJP is making games DR can only dream of making.

#13420 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

What makes you believe you are the enlighten one and the rest of us are simple deplorables. I believe the good people of Pinside are more than capable of sifting through either hyperbole or contempt and making their own conclusions. Thanks for trying to save us though.

#13685 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:I still think Bible Adventures would be awesome.
My secular version I mean. DR will blow it.

I can see it now, buying nails from the pinbar, plus a DLC upgrade for New Testament content.

#13707 3 years ago

Once DR has actually manufactured, oh, say, 10 machines, will I start concerning myself with their subscription idea. That’s probably a year away.

So funny, DR is such a nothing burger at this point. And yet, here we are.

#13726 3 years ago
Quoted from Blindseer:

LCDs are a gimmick to get customers to play a game. They offer nothing to the actual gameplay. There is no game that has taken advantage of a color display. Stern and JJP's menus are the same thing except one offers the info vertically and the other is screen by screen. AP's menu system is nothing to write home about not that many people have seen them.

You conveniently forget pin2k in your argument. Glad to see they are still around. I'm sure operators really cared about a menu system over an intellectual property.

Hogwash. The screen on Willy Wonka is chockablock with key information that keeps you updated on your immediate as well as long term objectives and fully aware of everything going on in your game. Which is wonderful, because there is so much going on in a JJP game. This can free up the playfield for other things than big - and sometimes ugly (24 anyone?) inserts that otherwise need to be there to show your progress for major milestones.

On top of that, the JJP screen and graphics are gorgeous. I never, ever thought I’d say this, but after owning a game with the large LCD, other games fall short in this dept. and non color DMD games seem out dated. Sterns LCD is ok, but JJPs are the state of the art.

#13742 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

The thing that's really gonna kill deeproot is lack of licensed titles. Goonies alone isn't going to carry the weight of 5 other games nobody wants.
They're clearly obsessed with the long-gone era of 90s B/W (again because John is the secret boss) but forget crucial things like how it was the early 90s licensed themes that sold huge while the original themes later on did far less business.
They're looking at it through the lense of history "after 20 years it was TOM, TOTAN, CV, MM, AFM, MB everyone loved best" but they're a company in the PRESENT. They can't wait 20 years for Food Truck to become a cult classic they need something they can sell NOW.

Food Truck seems to have some momentum, but I’m holding out for Urinal Cake and Fomunda Cheese. I hear the interactive toys on those are gonna change the game.

#13758 3 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Worse thing about DLC is it gives manufacturers an incentive to strip back the launch game code.

Strip it back from what?

1 week later
#13918 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Look, if you want the TPOE, you gotta pay up.
In advance.
Tired of being one of those losers enjoying only the Partial Pinball Ownership Experience.
That loser lifestyle ends now!

I wonder if DeepRoot TPOE includes gum stuck under the cab?

#13950 3 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

The homebrew thing is kinda neat but I really doubt it goes anywhere.
The volumes would be so low for most games. And the royalties? It’s better than nothing, but it’s a couple grand for thousands of hours of work. And that’s assuming you make a pitch they like (and that they don’t just say “no” and make their own version of an idea)

They haven’t proven they can build their own games yet. “The Reserve” is the biggest joke yet in this absurdist cavalcade of humor.

#13951 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I loved the "oh wows" from the "Pinball VIPs" for the box reveal.

The VIP lanyards. That’s it. That’s the post.

#13957 3 years ago
Quoted from aeneas:

After seeing the pinbox video and Robert saying they added a support so you can lift it with a dolly - I wonder if Robert or anyone else has ever tried it themselves ? Actually put a pinball machine in it and try to lift it (without help from someone else) with a dolly ?
Getting a pinball machine on a dolly and tipping it over its balance point is a challenge for me sometimes.
Put a huge box around the machine so the center of the weight is more out to the front, make the box much wider and taller without support for your hands ?
I have no idea how I could tip this thing on my dolly and if I would be able to roll around with it..
I would at least expect some holes to put my hands so I can pull it towards me..

How many pinhaulers have been rendered obsolete by the pin pod? Oh, that’s right, when actually moving the pin you can put the pin in the car and tie the pod on the top of your car. Which is absolutely ridiculous.

#13959 3 years ago
Quoted from RCA1:

Am I seeing the purchase info correctly?
Are orders only being taken from Dec. 8 to Dec. 30?
Yeah, great plan to sell games only for a three week window between Thanksgiving and Christmas during a global pandemic.

These guys think they’re so clever. With all their layers of “engagement”. When what they should be 100% focused on is getting a game out the door and building a reputation. Stern probably couldn’t get away with most of the shit Deeproot is peddling, and they’re the market leader. But Stern certainly has a better chance at it than DeepRoot.

Just reinforces my belief that DeepRoot now exists to receive investment money or a buyout. They need to present a fully realized business model to the “market” to do this. When in reality, real pinball people see through this for what it is. An elaborate charade.

#14010 3 years ago
Quoted from Scandell:

What makes it “elaborate”? Having a semblance of a production factory assembly line setup would make it “elaborate” certainly.
Anybody care to guess how many orders get placed in the next few weeks?

“Elaborate” meaning:
-The Website with the “Sizzle Reel” and all the other jumbo jumbo
-DeepRoot Studios (whatever)
-the whole DLC concept (pipedream)
-the 8 games in development (Food Truck!)
-the whole home brew contract manufacturing concept (they’ll make your game. Sure they will. Who makes theres? Lol’.).
-the “innovation”: The “Pinpod”. The “Pinbar”. “Pin Armour”. “Octo manufacturing”. Their revolutionary “design platform” that shortens game development to mere weeks. Ok.
-The limited ordering window FOMO BS (w/ pre-payment no less, but still no manufacturing info).

I’m sure Im forgetting plenty. They have concocted an elaborate image of a fully functioning, sophisticated company prepared to deliver the ultimate “pinball ownership experience”. But they haven’t done any more than Skip B (two guys in their mother’s basement) - build a couple prototypes. They miss deadline after deadline, including one where six mostly unknown podcasters with VIP passes were standing around rolling their eyes.

It’s either a scheme or the most fully realized “fake it till you make it” effort that the pinball world has ever seen. And remember, Heighway actually delivered TWO games, and Dutch delivered the Big Lebowski. There’s your benchmark.

#14397 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Fire and Brimstone is a terrible name. Makes you think of super right wing Southern baptists and all the most negative aspects of religion.
I was gonna do a Cecile b Demille/Michael Bay/God of War like Bible game. But then I made the mistake of mentioning the idea to Robert and here we are...

I like your chances of making that game before he does.

#14398 3 years ago
Quoted from Mercifull:

I don’t know what Bens connection (and beef) is with Deeproot but he seems even more disgruntled against them than Homepin who, from what I gather, “stole” some of his code (at least during the prototyping stage).

That’s right. You don’t know. There’s quite a history there.

#14399 3 years ago
Quoted from goingincirclez:

Diner meets Big Betty's Truck Stop: what's not to love? With an open mind, I think this (along with Yukon Yeti) is the best of their original / unlicensed concepts. The "unlicensed oh noes" are still inherent, but it could be lots of goofy fun if done properly.

Objectives like frying onions or putting mustard on your hot dog are fine when spending a few quarters on location. Or $1,500 on a Diner. But for $6,000 - $9,000 I need something a little more captivating.

#14483 3 years ago
Quoted from ViperJelly:

If Yukon Yeti is a reasonable White Water sequel it should sell well. I wouldn't mind having a modern take on this classic, especially since White Waters have crept up in price.

Why does river rafting need a sequel? I’d say it’s already ahead of the game with White Water.

3 weeks later
#15283 3 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

There was a past interview with Robert saying one of his biggest challenges was hiring people to work in San Antonio.
I'm reminded of the stories of when American Pinball started and they brought in Joe Balcer, and how it benefited that he knew so many people in Chicago that he could call on.

Bowen must be loving it. Cost of living is like 100% lower than NYC.

#15304 3 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Bowen != Bowden
One makes a lot of tutorial videos and does rules for Spooky. One runs Fun With Bonus and does rules for Deeproot.
100% lower would be zero. San Antonio CoL is not zero.

My bad! I know Steve Bowden.

My bad! Only 65%, with an 85% difference in housing: https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/new-york-manhattan-ny-vs-san-antonio-tx

#15359 3 years ago
Quoted from cpr9999:

No one has seen Food truck - how can you be for OR against it at this point?

Someone explain to me how Food Truck in any way a better theme than Oktoberfest? Very similar in concept as far as I’m concerned. In fact, ‘Fest has more variation opportunities IMO (beer, chicks, music, games...monkeys) in a good way.

‘Fest is a pretty solid pinball. And it’s loaded. And it sold lousy. Is Jpop’s art design really going to make Food Truck a hit? Or is it all that “other” DR innovation?

#15360 3 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:Food truck is designed for market expansion with an xtra for 10k for collectors and fans. It’s for the investors that don’t know anything about pinball to follow the dream/myth „every home needs a deeproot pinball“.

Home buyer buying their first $7-$10k new pin and has Star Wars, Avengers, Turtles, Stranger Things, JP, Deadpool, Wonka, GnR, Zep, Hot Wheels, Alien and whatever - Toy Story? - to choose from....and they pick Food Truck?

#15407 3 years ago
Quoted from DennisNordman:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Just because.

#15452 3 years ago

Food Truck should be called Roach Coach. And it should be about a mobile weed dispensary, not food. Diner for dopeheads!

#15514 3 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

So here is what DR could have done: change the entire model for pin purchase.
Game = free
Per year ownership cost with all DLC = $1000 a year.
What that would have done is immediately flooded the market with their games. Hell I would have gotten one or more. They couldn’t push them out fast enough even if they weren’t the greatest themes.
Think about all the people out there who essentially rent their games (pay Stern $9000, sell after a year for $8200).
You lower the bar for everyone to get into owning a pin instead of limit to the those who put pin purchases over car purchases or are independently wealthy.
Advantages: 1) you have huge uptake immediately, key for new kid on block to disrupt stern 2) you put a true disruptive model out there rather than this crap of “yeah if we make another RAZA it will be $13K”. 3) you establish a revenue stream rather than a one time lump sum of cash. 4) people will give you the benefit of the doubt. 5) you can structure the company from the get go using a model that other pin companies built on traditional models can’t easily replicate.
Disadvantages: 1) you need money, lots and lots of it to pay for the years of losses 2) your pin could be turned into the equivalent of scooters thrown into a lake 3) profitability will be down the road at best and perhaps never.
Investors want to see high uptake. Profit doesn’t have to be there to begin with. 200 pins sold is not high uptake.
Who knows, this might perhaps have been the model after all with that much cash they started with. But it fell apart when they couldn’t get the job done on time. So you have a millions funded company running on a Spooky business model, delivering a conventional product 7 years late, at a very conventional price and an undifferentiated model. Just doesn’t add up unfortunately. Unless PinBar was supposed to be the savior.

I remember my first beer.

2 weeks later
#15744 3 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Well the price didn't tank on TBL or Alien...so I think as long as it 'sort of' works and more than 5 people get one, they will be safe.
MG is a unique situation because that game is a work of art...that doesn't work. RAZA isn't nearly as engaging on that front, so if the gameplay sucks...you might be right.

You can’t compare a beloved cult classic and one of the greatest sci-fi movie franchises of all time with...RAZA. All we need to know happened last year. At the “launch” when 6 podcasters had to break it to DeepRoot that their game wasn’t ready for prime time.

After how many years?

#15761 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The t-shirt thing was a pathetic attempt to troll pinsiders that - like everything deep root - proved to be all show and no go when it turned out their “hammer proof” miracle clear coat was as smooth as a hyper hormonal teenagers’ face.
It was just so deep root. Hype + dumb concept + shit talking = broken promises and nothing getting produced. Novelty t shirts that nobody outside a couple hundred nerds would ever understand are hard.
As we haven’t heard shit about “hammer proof” in months, one can only assume they gave up on that as they try to figure out how to make a lock down bar without drawing blood from players’ palms.
This is what separates real manufacturers from ones that will never actually produce a pinball machine. Companies like stern and JJP have endured countless times more criticism over the years and yet never felt the need to run childish doomed-to-failure contests to troll a tiny portion of their potential customer base. They have other priorities, like making pinball machines and selling them for money.

The only thing “Hammer Tested” at Deep Rot are the original Jpop customers. Hopefully the new customers aren’t’ bludgeoned like that.

#15764 3 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

In that second video, Robert says they were going to show the pinball celebrities deeproot's revolutionary one-person setup solution that replaces what takes two or three people with other pins, but that he promised the organizers of Chicago Expo he'd save that reveal for their virtual show. Can someone link me that footage?

Wow. Maybe the fact that games aren’t running on the line right now is because they’ve been spending considerable time trying to rectify Pinball’s original sin regarding “scoring”. Lol!

Anyone else ever draw blood or ding their flooring removing the glass? Anybody still questioning why most people are not willing to invest in this guy’s pinball company?

13
#15802 3 years ago

Man, tonight sucked. I went down to the basement to play some pinball. No matter what game I played or how many times I played it, my scores were static. The score was the score was the score. In all the years pinball has been around, why on earth hasn’t anyone fixed this!? If only there was some “score” innovation in pinball!

After 3 hours of playing I finally just said “screw it”, and now I’m back on Pinside. Blah!

1 week later
#15854 3 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

That was the monthly 'grift ideas' meeting.

lol! It was an all hands to troubleshoot JPop’s latest ramp concept.

#15883 3 years ago

I had another static score playing one of my machines last night.

Hurry DeepRoot. Hurry!!

#15967 3 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Exactly; IF Deeproot was a scam it would be an even more incompetent scam than it is a pinball manufacturer. See the recent ASOA thread for a "less expensive" way to get a few hundred thousand from pinball enthusiasts.
Do I think they have shown every step of the way how clueless they are when it comes to assembling over a hundred unique made to order games? Yes. Prototyping, revealing and taking in money is the "easy" part. And they have made that look so very very hard... how are they supposed to get over the manufacturing hump without screwing that up too?

Yeah but....dynamic scoring!

#15980 3 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Important FYI for the RAZA pre-order thread!
[quoted image]
Would some who placed an order with DR disclose daily refund penalty terms? Curious if it's a percentage of the total purchase price or a flat per-day amount.

ROTFLMAO! “Self imposed refund penalty” for late shipment!

When they acquired the “Silicon Valley-esque” building, did they mean the TV show?

Gotta love the on-site “heavy manufacture” of raw materials too. You couldn’t make it up any funnier if you tried.

16DD35BA-CFB7-4546-B01B-95319C08985B (resized).jpeg16DD35BA-CFB7-4546-B01B-95319C08985B (resized).jpeg

#16024 3 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

I'd highlight the funny/embarrassing parts but TWIP already did it in white
[quoted image]

Thank you for the opportunity to enjoy RM and DR’s greatest hits! Hilarious trip down memory lane.

*no, I’m not a buyer. Are you nuts?

1 week later
#16118 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Yeah, I misread your comment. In the video they talk about a machine lift system to set it up but its a mystery and they don't show anything. Video is cued up.

Anybody else wince when he refers to the machine being “on its booty”? This guy is so damn cringy.

And you can bet your ass his 100% focus was in selling the company before he even released a game to market. That’s how Silicon Valley works and this dude is all about that model. Some of these finance guys are too big for their britches, and RM is certainly one of them. I’m sure pinball has broken better men.

#16179 3 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

You guys don't have to beat me up like everyone else. I know about the hatred of jpop, counting cars in parking lot, and all the big talk. Pinball is easy, pinbar, octo manufacturing and all that. I have even seen and played the prototype. I am familiar. Starter pack is cute. Always fun to rub someone's failures in their face and tell them "I told you so". BTW - weather was a serious issue done here that caused a lot of problems. Not sure that is an excuse to delay for months but it was someone I have never seen in my lifetime living in this area.

Robert has rubbed his own failures in the pinball community’s face. In the “sewer” if you will.

#16184 3 years ago

Negativity? A lot of people in this thread are quite positive DR will deliver nothing.

This is the “Fun Vee” thread and the other thread is the Ho hum vee.

No gang signs!

18
#16194 3 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

I'm aware of his big talk. But saying he started it sounds rather childish tbh. I just don't get all the hateful energy directed at bringing down DR day after day after day after day. Pretty sure everyone on pinside knows what's going on with DR or adult enough to figure it out.

Hateful energy? Hardly. I’m laughing my ass off at all this. I wish no one ill will, but honestly, I don’t care if the RAZA buyers get their games or not.

After 11 full years of sham after sham and skim after scam concerning multiple games by multiple people (and sometimes the same person FOUR different times...cough, JPOP, cough) - all FULLY chronicled here on Pinside - if people want to go in on this venture with their eyes wide shut...who really cares? I sure don’t. I’m just enjoying the sheer entertainment value. Which is off the charts and just gets better with every missive from RM esq.

I know I’m not alone and I doubt I’m even in the minority.

#16228 3 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

And don't forget Robert announcing that Deeproot would additionally be extending a magnanimous goodwill gesture to help make whole victims of both Heighway Pinball and Dutch Pinball.
Anyone have a status update on that? If not, one assumes it will be part of RM's April email.

He’s also pledged to place hundreds of food trucks to refugee camps in Greece, Ruwanda and Somalia. Although, as in most things, he was totally unclear on the concept.

#16239 3 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I'm aware, but you can still toss a trademarked name onto the item. Unless the license precludes it, which maybe it does. But they didn't tell that to whomever spraypainted some logos on the box
[quoted image]

The fact that you can’t get that thing through a standard door is DeepRoot in a nut shell.

#16263 3 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Um...you know a pinball machine by itself barely gets thru the door right? There's practically no way a padded box with a pinball machine is getting in a normal door.

Barely is enough. Plus, my NIBs from other companies make it through the door just fine.

The pin pod is just over engineered bs that’s supposed to help but really just solves a problem that doesn’t exist for most people.

Also cuts down drastically on the # of cars that can currently fit a pin now too. Again, innovation that shoots itself in the foot.

#16268 3 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Too many comments focused on Jpop. John isn't Deeproot's revolutionary pinball visionary. Lawyer and financial advisor Robert J. Mueller is.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Thanks for the belly laugh!

#16301 3 years ago
Quoted from Bruce_Pickle:

I see Texas is lowering those Covid restrictions. No more mask mandate and businesses are able to run at full capacity. This should help speed up things at DR...
Ps- Lol

DeepRoot aside, I hope this works out ok.

#16313 3 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

He won't have to. Neither Spooky nor JJP invested in quad/octo manufacturing, which allows for dynamic throttling. Deeproot did. The problems you describe are vestiges of an antiquated manufacturing paradigm the other manufacturers still cling to.

#16335 3 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Though before he said "octo" was a joke he said it was real:

He also said "um" and "uh" a lot.

And then he said “one tier pricing”.

#16348 3 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

He said a lot of things. I feel so much vicarious embarrassment for the other deeprooters whenever Robert is talking or asking them to chime in.
If you enjoy cringe comedy and haven't watched that entire expo panel, I highly recommend you do.

The look on Bowden’s face says it all.

The thing JPop and Robert have in common is that they seem to think if you talk enough about it, and show a couple pictures or a mock up of something plus a website link, that the thing actually exists. And that talking equals progress. It don’t.

#16349 3 years ago

With the right art and callouts....

4E6228A6-BCE8-4446-943C-52AC37DE172B (resized).jpeg4E6228A6-BCE8-4446-943C-52AC37DE172B (resized).jpeg
#16395 3 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I have no idea what their business model looks like or what their expected profit margins are but I do wonder how many machines they need to sell before they are in the black.

96BE5AB3-37A6-4513-818D-53A5D2BA22D5 (resized).png96BE5AB3-37A6-4513-818D-53A5D2BA22D5 (resized).png
#16396 3 years ago

I would have loved to be in the room when the order banks closed and they counted the pre-sales. Gotta think that when they started years and years ago that RM envisioned selling 10,000 RAZAs.

Then after a couple years he was like, ok 5,000.

Then a few years later he was, ok, 1,000.

And then, finally, when the order banks went live last year he was “Please God, just give us 500”.

160.

#16436 3 years ago

“DeepRoot Days”. Hoo boy. Is that where they do car washes to pay off that PPP loan?

And the fact that the local barcade operator says something nice about the local pinball “manufacturer” ( ) is hardly surprising. You don’t shit where you eat.

#16469 3 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

Depending on the location, they're now 'weed breaks'. And there are only 2.
Work 9-10:30. Time for a Weed Break.
10:30 - 11. Smoke, listen to some tunes. Chill... Time for an early lunch.
Back to work. 12:45 - 2. Time for a Weed Break.
2 - 2:30. Smoke, listen to some tunes. Chill... drowsy time....
Back to work. 3 - 4:30. Damn, so hungry. Early break for supper. Finish up tomorrow.

We get up at noon and get to work by 1....take an hour for lunch and then at 2 we’re done!

#16495 3 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

Texas......where everything is bigger....even the egos..

Not everything.

#16496 3 years ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

They might push out a dozen, or twenty, or thirty, or maybe a few more, but I suspect if they do it, It will be piece meal and built by a very small handful of people without any production line. That's IF they manage to build any.
I'd guess down the road be it two, three, seven months whatever, it's all going to be over. I didn't bet - No preorder from me. Looked like a huge gamble backed with ever changing broken promises, multiple delays, boastful bravado, wasted time, and all for what looks to me to be a very mediocre pin. Then when the house of cards falls and if you're lucky enough to have gotten a pin, if getting one is lucky, what the heck do you do when some critical part breaks or the game won't boot up some evening when you turn it on ? Who's going to answer answer the pinbar then....
No thanks, bets have already been placed by those who ordered. I'm not that gutsy. Can't do it. I wouldn't wager anything on this mess in any shape or form.
I'm with Wolfmarsh - I would be happy to be wrong about all this, but this doesn't look good.

John and Robert will be screwing these things together themselves. Which should nullify the UL CERT in spirit if not reality. These games will break at the seams. Long term viability in serious question here.

#16504 3 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

Aww....come on now, lets stay above the belt

Now belt buckles...totally different story there! If only other things were as large as those.

#16527 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

No takers yet
My inbox is empty

#16582 3 years ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

I'm feeling feisty, so here's a controversial hot take: I actually DO want deeproot to fail.
I'm sick and tired of loudmouth, incompetent assholes like Robert Mueller, who can never admit to making a mistake. I don't want egomaniacs who manage to get some cash behind them through either graft, inheritance, or dumb-luck to succeed.
We've got plenty of pinball manufacturers now. More than enough with Stern, JJP, CGC, API, and Spooky. Plus, we've got P3 Multi, The PB Bros, Dutch, and Haggis to name a few more small-run guys. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say we've got too many pinball manufacturers right now. I'd love to see a few of these companies team-up or merge together. They could increase overall volume to reduce their costs and overhead, and maybe we'd actually see more than 1 game a year from a company besides Stern.
The only reason I'd even half-want deeproot to succeed is so that Zidware people can be made whole, assuming that RM actually intends to follow-through with that promise. And I'm sorry, but as much as I like Steve Bowden, he can't redeem the utter shitshow that is RM, JPop, and deeproot.

20
#16590 3 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Pretty poor imo to want a company to fail just because of a dislike of a few people. So you would be happy when dozens of people lose their jobs, customers lose thousands, and pinball loses competition?

That’s a very poor reading and interpretation of his post.

And “dozens of people” don’ work there. It’s probably around 3 these days. And we already know they don’t get paid, because that’s how RM rolls.

And the customers losing “thousands” lost that $$ to Jpop 8 years ago. Anyone who actually gave money to CheepFoot deserves what they get, including nothing.

And DeepRoot hasn’t provided any competition in the pinball market. In any form. Ever.

I think that about covers it.

#16612 3 years ago

At least you can drive a Dodge Neon.

#16628 3 years ago
Quoted from Strohz:

Attached is an early RAZA playfield design, and an early whitewood photo courtesy of Pinball News I think. It's a similar layout at first glance but went through a lot of changes when you start to compare with the current one. I agree I think the early design was much more ambitious but then reality probably set in.[quoted image][quoted image]

That ramp shot to the upper right corner checks out.

#16634 3 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

Classic John. Still allergic to straight lines.

and physics!

#16636 3 years ago

Good memory Kim! Yah, I played it over multiple Manhattans, which made the experience more pleasurable for sure.

The ramps shot “ok” if I recall, but the layout was surprisingly bland and yes, shots to nowhere! And nothing really happened in the game to speak of. It was terribly undercooked code wise.

Kaneda insists it’s the most beautiful art package of all time and I disagree there. It’s visually appealing. Striking even, but it doesn’t really elevate above other well done hand art packages, especially the best 70’s and 80’s art and some recent Stern packages.

#16675 3 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

twas another box of dung while he had however many other games "in development" at the time.

Lookie! A spinning wheel! I’ll admit the “concept” of the KISS Pinball Circus was seductive and the art was outstanding. He basically stops there.

#16692 3 years ago

never have so many accomplished so little.

#16702 3 years ago

As a wise pinball inventor once mused: Pinball is the intersection of cerebral synergy, spatial energy, spiritual integration, creative inspiration, physical perspiration, intellectual resilience...

parts...and

...an assembly line.

That, FeetPoop, is why you fail.

74F718D1-8FC6-4EC9-B069-7377B72D29EE (resized).png74F718D1-8FC6-4EC9-B069-7377B72D29EE (resized).png
#16754 3 years ago
Quoted from EalaDubhSidhe:

No you wouldn't. He'd have ripped you off just like he did Wozniak.

Hoo boy! Considering what Jpop, Kulek and Heighweigh took him for, Jobs would have taken his deli meats, Shasta, all his booze AND all his beer money.

#16763 3 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

This raises an interesting question. John failed with $1M (Zidware 1.0) , and quite possibly now with $10M (Zidware 2.0). Suppose there was Zidware 3.0 (I mean he’s gotten this far so we can’t say it’s impossible), and let’s say it’s now $100M. Is there any limit to the amount of dollars he could plow thru and still fail ? If you give a person enough money don’t they have to eventually put out a machine ? Or is John someone who with more money will asymptotically approach putting out a machine, but never quite actually achieve it ? Curious minds want to know.

1, 10 or $100 million, ramps to nowhere don’t play.

#16883 3 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

I certainly do remember your support and it was greatly appreciated. I nearly joined in on the lawsuit but couldn't bear spending more money, waiting more time and likely having the same outcome.
I agree with you totally about the "large fish" pretty much getting nothing. Just yesterday I re-read Zombie Yetti's first post in the train wreck Zidware thread where he was trying to find out what might be going on. Very sad times. John had pretty much dropped off the screen at that point and no one could get any feedback from him.
I don't have hard feelings for what is happening here. I just find the tone of it all a very disturbing trend.
It's the pile on mentality of so many here that have absolutely NOTHING to do with Zidware or Deeproot. They just enjoy creating havoc and watching the chaos. That's where I disagree with you Levi on what is happening here. It really has little to do with stop the steal. Like the Capital rioters, most of the people perpetrating that were drinking the cool aid and too blind to see what the end result would be.

“They just enjoy creating havoc and watching the chaos.” Lol! Neither of those words are even relevant to what’s going on here. Chaos?

This is a lot of jaded hobbyists having fun watching this train wreck.

No one in this thread will be responsible if Deep Root fails. Not unless RM is lurking.

#16885 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I hear ya on that. Things were moving fast back then and we had a very loud and egotistical disruptor within our ranks confusing everything. And he is still very confused.

Hmm, Who might this be? Does he “come from the land of the ice -or- snow?” Is he a Viking? Or just smell like one?

#16949 2 years ago

Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’. And ya gotta have somethin’, if ya wanna sell to me.

#16989 2 years ago

Silverballs wildly bashing
worlds under glass colliding
Everywhere but DeepRoot

10
#16990 2 years ago

Hiding in his pinpod
Inventing quad manufacturing
In case someone asks

#17075 2 years ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

Actually February 30th

Actually the 12th of never.

#17076 2 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

I dont accuse you of intentional unfairness. I dont accuse you of polemic slander bc you gave reason for your opinion. And I´m not pinball police issuing a fine.
But he cant defend himself bc hes still blocked bc of the 14 day thread eject the mod issued on him. Hes like a dead mans grave where dispute about his bad behavior in life starts.
So maybe for your karma its better to keep it low until his blockage ends.

So, how many fortnight bans will Icey get before DeepRoot ships a game? Bet me! Wimps!

#17091 2 years ago

5 days of excuses
14 days of banishment
Freaking hilarious

#17113 2 years ago

This can’t be real
On the other hand
Oh the irony

#17114 2 years ago

In the pre-order thread, Punny Factory has now officially shown more pictures of pinball parts than DeepRoot.

Can’t make this shit up.

#17121 2 years ago

Ice cancelled himself!

#17132 2 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

If we pool all our pinball monies, it'd probably be cheaper to just dig a new canal than unstuck that ship.

It would probably be faster to just build our own Raza’s too.

#17155 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Leaked Future Deeproot Themes??
Titanic
The Money Pit
The Neverending Story
The Emperor's New Clothes (Mueller design)
Space Shuttle Challenger
Theranos

Remake of “The Black Hole” or
Less than Zero

Quoted from Bublehead:

The Big Sleep
Same Time Next Year
Poiseidon Adventure
Towering Inferno
The Legend of the Fall
Into the Abyss

#17162 2 years ago

The game will have better art than Thunderbirds. More stuff on it than Mafia. Look more professional than Predator.

That’s a very low bar.

#17188 2 years ago

Anticipation!

#17205 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I watched a documentary called Hired Guns (decent doc - go check it out) and it had a segment about Billy's drummer and what he (Joel) did to the rest of his band. Lets just say Billy Joel comes off as one egotistical son of a bitch, and thats being kind. I like his music, but I separated the art from the artist a long time ago with Billy, not a great human being according to that documentary. And boy are we WAY the phuck off topic now...

How old is that documentary? Joel was a raging drunk for years if not decades, which probably fueled his ass-holery. Dude drunk drove his car into the houses of multiple people on Long Island. Multiple.

I think he’s been sober now for years and I wonder if he’s mellowed and less of a dick? I only care in as much as The Stranger was the second album I ever had and I wore out the grooves. I lost track of Joel outside of his hits once I discovered KROQ.

I’ll bring this back around to Spinal Tap. Why hasn’t this been made? Cult classic - so a cult following - that still touched a mainstream vein (“these go to 11”). A treasure trove of one liners and concept ideas. LCD movie clips would be hysterical. Great music (I mean it, great). I’m dead to rights sure the license would be gettable and affordable. AND, I’m pretty sure the guys - none of them exactly pop culture kings these days - would participate in the creative process (ala Slash).

Get it done JJP! This, honestly, would be my only “take my money” now theme. Sight unseen and playfield chipping be damned.

#17218 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’m in for a “None More Black” LE

Jesus, how funny would it be if they made one model that was completely black? Playfield and cab art, all plastics, all hardware (nuts, bolts, posts, guide rails, everything), translight, legs, flipper buttons, the balls etc. I mean every last thing. 100% (aka “none more”) black. Priceless!

Not in this lifetime...

#17219 2 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Shit sandwich Collector’s edition!
all of the spinal tap guys still have huge careers still going. ALL of them have had shows on in the last year - HS is still on Simpsons, and Michael McKean did a huge run on Better Call Saul. Baron Christopher Guest has kind of a good thing going with a couple of movies he made, and whatever nonsense he has to do as a result of his British royalty thing. I’d love it if they were involved but they all seem kinda busy
At least I hope they get the bloody 40th anniversary bluray together!

I didn’t mean to suggest they aren’t successful. Or busy. They are all successful by any measure. Just that their current popularity level doesn’t seem like it would be “fuck you, don’t you know who I am?”.

They’re older now and might appreciate one last opportunity to inject the spirit of Spinal Tap into the culture. With the evolving demographics of pinball, it might be a fair opportunity to turn an entire new generation on to Spinal Tap.

How about a mode where you’re the drummer, and you see how long you can go (shots or combos you can make) before you spontaneously combust into a little green globule!? Lol.

Or a mini mode where you see how many people you can fit onto a King leisure bed?

A video mode where you need to find the stage? Or find Nigel’s gum?

Two words: Jazz Odyssey.

#17243 2 years ago

Lol:

Distributors

deeproot Pinball takes pride in directly serving the needs of our customers. Our main preference is serving the customer before, during, and after sale. In some circumstances, US distributors in the pinball industry may have existing customers they would like to assist in the sales process. We appreciate and want to support those external relationships, without detracting from our direct customer relationships.

FOR RAZA (Prior to January 1, 2021)
US or International Distributors who have an approved distribution agreement may earn a commission for referring a customer to deeproot Pinball. They may also be eligible to buy and then resell RAZA to a third party at market price with a one-time transfer of warranty and support rights. For more information, contact us below.

FUTURE DISTRIBUTION
After January 1, 2021, we want to focus on limited distribution for distributors that commit to selling or buying a minimum number of deeproot machines a year. Distribution rights of our products require the following four criteria to qualify:

-A registered legal entity, full-time staff, and a defined geographical territory
-Prior pinball sales experience
-History of marketing, along with a marketing budget
-A minimum commitment of sales per contract year
-Terms of the distribution, including compensation, will be negotiated every contract year based on your business, geographic territory, exchange rates, and complexity of sales.

#17286 2 years ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Gomez said they passed on big trouble in little China . I find it weird , as it is one of the most requested themes . I think he said it just to piss off Kaneda .

Most requested? Not even close.

Anyone else starting to think that maybe, just maybe, they’ll roll up their sleeves and start posting in the “pre-order thread”?

#17382 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Hey, what happened to the parking lot full of cars and all of that bullshit?

Paying $5 to a bunch of uber drivers to cancel a ride at the last minute is cheaper than renting a bunch of cars and parking them in the lot all day.

#17438 2 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

“If they did fold, the couple RAZA prototypes/samples built will eventually sell to some people with too much money.”
Now that’s an interesting idea. Only 1 RAZA ever gets produced and gets auctioned to the highest bidder. Maybe even an NFT in there. I mean a single NYT blog post NFT sold for $500K didn’t it ? Or maybe they auction a 2fer here, Magic Girl AND RAZA specially signed by JPOP.

Rotflmao.

No.

#17484 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Magic Girl... did we learn anything?
TBL... did we learn anything?
Aliens... did we learn anything?
Predator... did we learn anything?
And now RAZA...
Just when will we really learn our lesson?
If there is one lesson that comes out of this, most likely it will be the reinforcement of the notion that pinball addicts are worse than heroine junkies, and they will throw any kind of money at someone to get their next "just got to have it" fix.

I’ve learned that when I want a new game I should buy from JJP or Stern or CGC or Spooky or American Pinball or Multimorphic. Period.

#17485 2 years ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Hopefully it doesn't get to that point , like I said he seems like a really nice guy .

Nice people get conned all the time. In fact, most cons target nice people. That’s kinda what we’ve all been saying. A guy like Steve kinda lent DeepShit some street cred. And that was probably the point. Steve’s innocent until proven guilty in my opinion. Robert’s guilty until he delivers a game.

Quoted from russdx:

...he's just paid to do a job like 99% of every one else working there...

Let’s hope so.

#17489 2 years ago

100%! I’ve revised my previous post to correct for my omission. With the price of games skyrocketing, I’ve been thinking about Heist a lot lately. Dollar for dollar maybe even a better buy than Stern.

#17492 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

The problem is these junkies want their fix to be the most rare, exclusive, "nobody else got one" machines... like it's some kind of collector's competition. I like the 4 titles by JPoop, I would own any one of them in my collection, but hoping for any new title from him going forward is not what interests me. I think the TEAMS that brought those games to us were the top of the heap, and no amount of money is going to catch that lightning in a bottle again. We will get great machines in the future, but not like the string of machines from B/W in the 90's IMHO.

I once owned CSI. Some say only about 300 were ever made. The theme wasn’t terribly exciting - but it was well integrated! - and the artwork was Stern’s standard cut and paste of the time. It had one ramp, which really seemed to stifle enthusiasm for games “way back” then (13 years ago).

But it also had some really cool toys, drops, spinner, magnet, scoop, Vuk, habitrails, cool music and dots, a decent layout, good (a little shallow) rules and 3 flippers. And nobody cares, or really wants one. Rare? You bet.

You retheme that game with Zombie Yeti artwork and it would probably be worth what people are laying down for RAZA. And be a better game. But worth a lot of money? Doubt it.

#17510 2 years ago

This is the story of Jack and John. About 10 years ago, each announced the creation of a new game. Jack created and delivered a masterpiece, and one of the most respected and appreciated pinball machines of all time. And then another. And another, and another and another.

John created a few boxes of blinky lights with ramps to nowhere. And hasn’t delivered shit to speak of. But here we still are.

Quoted from gweempose:

John Popadiuk just announced today on RGP that he is available for hire if anyone wants to commission a custom machine ...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/73d5bc51cac71ce8#
What a year in pinball this is turning out to be!

Quoted from iceman44:

So I've decided to start another thread since I've been "ejected" from another Jpop thread on two of his pins I own because of the total DB's that continue to ruin everything…………
Eject this……..
I'm so excited about RAZA, it looks awesome so far and am thrilled to have Jpop leading the charges here. So I can't wait to see more from Jpop on RAZA and AIW, I think there is still availability left on AIW!

Quoted from gweempose:

I just put down a $250 deposit on one. Yes, it might be a little impulsive to pre-order something this expensive without even seeing a single photo, but I really feel compelled to support this new company. I have long hoped that someone would step forward and offer some real competition to Stern. Hopefully, this will be the beginning of a great new line of pins, and I will be proud to say that I was one of the first to hop on board.
According to an email that Jack sent me today, the game will cost around $7,200. The people who pre-order it will save $700, bringing the cost down to $6,500. For those who are on the fence, it is my understanding that the deposit is fully refundable if you change your mind. I think Jack is simply trying to gauge how much demand there will be for this first machine. The email also stated that a wealth of information about the game will be made public within the next 45 days. I'm assuming at that point, the people who still want one will have to plunk down a bunch of extra cash.
This is a very exciting time for all of us. Let's keep our fingers crossed that this new endeavor is a success.
http://pinballsales.com/asp/default.asp

1 week later
#17537 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Wow that podcast was very telling.
How do you not have a stable working game after 3 years? (or really 8 for Johnny boy) That's pathetic. Homebrewers do better in their garage, on weekends, with boxes of scrap.
Considering he bought into the BS "JPOP MAGIC" Robert probably thought all designers were magical. Forgetting, as many do, that it was the engineers who were the real heroes of Pinball.
Guessing he hired engineers but not from this field (it's Texas after all) Probably a lot of clash and confusion. See also getting your web developer to write code. "Code is computers, web is computers, this makes sense right?"
And finally - guess what other prototype had wires all the same color? PREDATURD.

Jpop working on “Fire and Brimstone”. That has to be on purpose, right?

#17608 2 years ago
Quoted from seenev:

Here you go! [quoted image]

Robert had to put the LEDs* down because LEDs are for closers only.
ABC (resized).pngABC (resized).png

*pronounced as “beds”

#17715 2 years ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

Maybe it was ecto-manufacturing, done by ghosts.

Who are we kidding folks? It’s rectum-manufacturing, because it’s coming straight out of Robert’s ass.

#17729 2 years ago

RM’s goal the whole time seems to be sell out (all our innovative IP!) to Stern, JJP or American. No one wants his dreck.

If RAZAs get made that will be that. There will be no more. There will be no support or warranty parts when things go bad. All there will be is a stain. A little green globule on the pages of Pinside.

The game will be mediocre - deemed a failure - and not command any serious premiums for “rarity”

There’s no sex and drugs for DeepRoot.

#17770 2 years ago

RAZA looks great! And the word out of Texas is that Food Truck is a winner! My secret source has played it!

Boy, what a great time for pinball. I for one am so happy that innovative risk takers like Robert Mueller have started exciting new companies that are taking pinball to the next level! Game changing!

And god knows we need it. The 5 or 6 games that come out every year from those “other companies” are so backwards it’s laughable. Laughable!! Viva la Raza!

***’Scuse me, just went to the Bahamas for a second***

#17809 2 years ago

Jpop and DeepRoot are like a huge fart let loose in the pinball hobby. Like a crop duster at the York show. No one saw it coming. We choked on it for far too long. The stink still lingers...but it will evaporate soon, and nothing will be left in its wake. Except fart jokes.

#17859 2 years ago

Looks like Thiel is more optimistic than Nordman. Hopefully it’s for good reason. But there’s no good reason to assume THAT.

#17905 2 years ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

I agree that John is a terrible businessman, but TOTAN's ramp is nothing short of amazing. The lamp is a great toy. There overall experience is mesmerizing.
If the game is set up extra hard and the rules are jacked up to maximin difficulty, the game is a long term/forever keeper. It's his best pin hands down.
TOM has lots of cool innovation as well, but too easy regardless of setup. For games built specifically for location, they are crazy good.

Ha! In a 12 game collection maybe. In a four game collection, if you really love pinball (and actually play a lot) you ain’t bolting any John game to the floor! And the Lamp spinner is a fun little novelty - least impressive part of the game IMO - and a simple copy of spinners done many times throughout the 60’s and 70’s.

#17911 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

The shooting cage, ball save on TOTAN is one of my all time favorites in any pinball machine. The Ringmaster rising up in CV and throwing the ball at me is what got me into pinball collecting. And Jpop had a few other great ideas mixed in with several borrowed or re-used ideas from other designers.
But when I saw the stupid ferris wheel stolen from Cyclone on RAZA I said oh oh. Worst toy ever and useless gameplay disruptor 30 years ago.
And that got me to scrutinise the rest of the RAZA playfield. Where is the innovation they promised? I don't want to play the Pinbar, I want innovation on the playfield where all of the action is.
A 30 year old ferris wheel mech and a rehashed duck shooting gallery is not the way to lead.
I'm happy for those that view this game differently but I just don't get it.

Ringmaster might be the best toy ever. And it’s on a spring too, the irony!

Jpop certainly had his moments. Unfortunately they were all 25-30 years ago.

#17948 2 years ago
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

While this thread is active again, I'd liek to remind everyone of the math on this is the $30,000,000 investment to start up rumour is true. At $1,000 profit per machine and a 6% return on investment to investors they will literally never make any money even at 50 machines per week.
From several months ago:
f they make 50 machines per week (JJP numbers), and make $2000 per machine, if they are paying 6% to their initial investors it would take them almost 20 years to break even.
Let's say Deeproot is invested in this all at $30,000,000. How much "profit" do they need to make on a machine? Let's say for the purpose of math (and making it easier to alter later) it is $1,000. That means that in order for Deeproot to break even, they would need to make ($30,000,000/$1,000) 30,000 machines just to break even. Let's step that up further and say that they reach the rumored manufacturing capacity of Jersey Jack Pinball of 50 machines per week. This would imply that (30,000/50) 600 weeks or 11.5 years were needed just to break even. If you want to say they make $2,000 per machine that makes 5.75 years or $3,000 per machine makes almost 4 years just to break even. But wait! Deeproot must be paying their investors some sort of rate of return. 11.5 years at $1,000 per machine and Deeproot promised... say a 6% return on investment once production started, then they would owe investors almost $60 million after 11.5 years, not $30 million. In fact, if you include interest of 6% on Deeptroot initial startup money at $30,000,000, produce at the rate of Jersey Jack (50 per week), Deeproot would never be able to eliminate its startup debt. At $2,000 markup per machine it would take them ALMOST 20 YEARS to eliminate startup debt.
Please note I have no insider knowledge of Deeproot and am pulling the numbers for debt repayment based off of online calculators. My math may or may not be right but from my purely mathematical analysis I do not see this company making it long term. With that said I am rooting for them.

TL/DR: They’re screwed.

#17989 2 years ago
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:

DR should just reach out to Pinball Arcade or Zen and have their games made digitally. A million downloads worldwide across all gaming platforms. At $4 a pop.....not a bad chunck of change.

Yeah, but RAZA would only gross $640!

#18040 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

It's an educational toy.
(ow, let's not do that again)

It’ll teach you a lesson all right.

#18041 2 years ago

Fathom >>>>>>> Food Truck.

And I don’t even care for Fathom. Kinda overrated and I hate those inlane/outlanes. Just hate ‘em. Those in-line drops up top are pretty damn badass though. And doesn’t it have a “Danesi lock”?

#18107 2 years ago
Quoted from spinal:

Any news on when the next 6 week delay will be announced?

The delay announcement has been postponed.

#18186 2 years ago
Quoted from Scandell:

Just caught up on 360 posts of absolutely nothing. I’ll add some actual meat.
Robert has zero understanding, respect or reverence for manufacturing and production of any kind. To say he bit off more than he could chew here in Utah is an understatement.
When I was recruited to Deeproot back in 2019, the recruiter/employee lead with this
“well...there’s a rich guy that wants to start an animation and visual effect empire in Salt Lake City. He wants to hire 200 animation artists within the next year. He says he wants to be “a Sony”. He is first starting in pinball then wants to branch out and dominate in other fields. It sounds crazy but that’s what he says”
So many stories.
Robert inquired numerous times how many employees other Utah studios Had...cause he wanted to know when he could state that he had the “biggest animation company in Utah”.
Less than a few months later he informed us “the money pipeline has dried up”.
He’s a real planner.
His leadership team “the board” here in Utah had a number of back-biters and con-artists that bickered endlessly and had little competency to actually produce 3D animation. When Robert didn’t know how to manage them, he would hire a new outsider that said they could shape things up and threw them on “the board” as well. It became a lion’s den...hyena den.
These guys were pulling approx 200k each a year.
To be fair There were a few great talented guys in there too...but they didn’t have the leadership experience to keep their hands on the wheel and train Robert and guide his expectations. As a group they failed to establish budgets, schedules, and goals.
For all of us that worked there...it was draining. After my first week, I think 10-15 people individually asked me “what made you think coming here was a good idea?” I replied...
“I like pinball”

Unfortunately the business world is full of self promoting charlatans that talk their way into positions of leadership “to clean things up” or “get things moving”. Only they don’t know WTF they’re doing. If they ever succeeded at anything it was either a “right place, right time” situation, or, maybe it was at a time when they still had a shred of integrity and actually put out some effort for fear of exposure. But now, these self-aggrandizing a-holes exist only to toot their own horns, bully and demoralize their co-workers, waste a shit load of everyone’s time (and money) and, basically “fail up” until someone gets wise and sends them packing. And then these jerks simply write a love letter to themselves on Linked In, BSing that they “raised revenues 3,000%” or some other stat impossible to check and start the whole process over.

Man, I should hire myself out to businesses to suss these jokers out, because I can smell them from a mile away.

#18187 2 years ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

Seeing how many jobs are posted, I am beginning to think this is going to slow smolder the rest of the year, if not more. UnlessRobert really has zero clue still what the cash flow situation looks like — which is Entirely possible given what has been seen and heard.

Those job postings are a total smokescreen. Why he even bothers is the question. Maybe for his ego...but more likely the last ditch effort to sucker some gullible investor into buying all his crap.

#18188 2 years ago
Quoted from aeneas:

I do wonder why they expect in every job offering you need to be able to lift a certain weight ????

To carry around all that bull$#1+

#18189 2 years ago
Quoted from trueno92:

You need to reach out to Kaneda and blow the top off of this.
https://www.facebook.com/KanedaPinballPodcast/

He just did. Pinside has 30,000 members. Kaneda might get 3,000 listeners on his best day.

#18210 2 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I haven’t read this whole thread. What’s the current state of affairs with DR?

Robert is currently having an affair with his Dr., a stately red thread. Er, red head.

So production - and all external expectations- is delayed.

#18252 2 years ago

What’s most amusing is that just like 10 years ago, a big part of this seems to be the “I’m going to have something rare and therefore valuable!”. Which isn’t anything the “hobby” should feel inclined to support under any circumstances, let alone this clusterfuck.

#18312 2 years ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

Yeah, I hear you. And agree
But its getting tired.
Let's see what happens. We have time.

You nailed it. Deep Root is getting VERY tired. I mean, how long does this go on?

#18338 2 years ago
Quoted from Mark1971:

Has anyone received an update on the delivery time for this game that has made a purchase? I put a deposit and don't ck the forums much.

Lol.

#18373 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

This was a Deep-rooted statement from 3 years ago. I am still in the " some won't believe anything deep-rooted says" part of the pinball population.

DeepRoot should just change their name to StayTuned!

#18378 2 years ago
Quoted from Viggin900:

Even if they produce the game I wouldn't touch it. Imagine trying to get parts for it or customer service!

But that rarity of parts will just make the value skyrocket!

#18392 2 years ago
Quoted from SunKing:

I believe it’s officially ‘mid-may’ now. Wonder how long it’ll be ‘till the next update?

Calendars: the ultimate external expectation.

#18407 2 years ago

Labor shortage. Lol.

#18421 2 years ago

JUNE!

They took order money last year! For February delivery.

JUNE!!!

20
#18608 2 years ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

So please tell me why you would try to slam a company that is giving us another option in this great,great hobby ?

Because we weren’t born yesterday.

#18613 2 years ago

Next game?
22FE012E-892F-484F-BFB0-8DD90BB1C7A8 (resized).jpeg22FE012E-892F-484F-BFB0-8DD90BB1C7A8 (resized).jpeg

#18673 2 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

It's not even fanboyism. It's what is becoming even more common these days in that people do not want to admit when they are wrong and instead double down just to 'stick it' to the haters. Additionally, none of those people are hanging on because they really really want to play the game. They are hanging on because they think they are going to get a super rare pin that they can 'brag about' and/or flip. It's just gambling at this point. Maybe they will get it, maybe they won't. If they only have ~$600 wrapped up in it and aren't hurting for money, it's not really that big of a deal overall to the individual. To many here buying NiB pinball machines that is chump change and they spend more than that on a weekend out.

The notion that a pinball company taking ORDERS and pre-money ( ) needs to behave responsibly and with integrity is now lost on these people. That thread has devolved into “I’m a big boy, if I want to gamble my money I can”.

They should change the name of the thread to “Vegas Baby!”

I’d probably pay $500 myself - to Pinside - for the sheer entertainment value of this situation. But it’s FREE!

-4
#18674 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Only one public taker on the refund so far. Seems this is another failed Deeproot maneuver?

If DeepRoot fails, the blame falls FIRMLY on the shoulders of their CUSTOMERS!

#18675 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

WHEN DeepRoot fails, the blame falls FIRMLY on the shoulders of their CUSTOMERS!

Fixed it for ya!

2 weeks later
#18793 2 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

deeproot is a sham you all
my epeen is muy largo
nothing more to say today
*fixed when I realized, I must have been on drugs.

An ego the size of Texas
Does not a pinball make
And Gary smiles

#18794 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:Smackdown! RAW VS RAZA!

Almost as big a mismatch as NJ vs. RI!

#18796 2 years ago
Quoted from elZilcho:

Dont get me wrong, i like john's style, when zidware was still alive, i inquiered about alice, but lucky me, john never even botherd to respond.
yeah months later when it was obvious shit and fan were closing in.
But obviously he should never be in charge of a company and nether the guys who who follow him all the way.
so henche the joke.
but this guy seriously needs sturdy directions and targets + a brilliant filler team.
if we have that and they deliver raza and a cash cow, i might be in on alice (again)
(Xcuse my english)
(And if you think we are communists, here is some history, when the dutch founded new amsterdam in america now new york, the land was acually puchased by a company, not a king, we were a republic, as far as i now the fist stockmarket in company shares was on a bridge in amsterdam
so if you think we are non humans/communists, piss off )

Don’t sweat it. Most “capitalists” in the US don’t really know what it means.

#18891 2 years ago

The games in my basement are still there and providing lots of enjoyment. I wish they had more innovative scoring, and a way to order a drink whilst I play, but I’ll settle for the fact that I paid for them and they arrived.

#18899 2 years ago

DeepRoot is basically VC backed Vonny D.

#18908 2 years ago

Thread’s been a little slow lately. As a way to keep us entertained during the interminable wait, I suggest we post little nuggets on all Jpops or DR’s bloopers over the years.

I’ll start. How about when Jpop put his custom length glass on his newly designed cabinet for the first time and expressed genuine surprise that the glass barely cleared the shooter rod? “The Inventor” indeed.

11
#18953 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Never smoked a day in my life either. Pot or otherwise.

That explains a few things.

#18987 2 years ago

DeepRoot Dispatch:

We goofed. Pinball is hard, and JPop is a hot mess. We’re no where near delivering RAZA because we don’t have enough parts. We’re in the dark here. Have been the whole time, actually. If it’s any consolation, Icey’s tech really likes Food Truck. That should give you hope.

#18988 2 years ago

In other news, Stern announces a non-licensed disaster theme: Deeply Screwed. A pinball company shoots it’s mouth off and screws itself at every turn! Against impossible odds, you need to design, source parts, build and ship the game. Good luck! It’s harder than it sounds!

#19061 2 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Now that we are on an odd day rolling blackout this has reduced our manufacturing capacity in half.

You can’t divide zero by 2.

#19123 2 years ago

What day of DeepRoot are we on again?

#19143 2 years ago
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:

Looks like Spooky Pinball is lapping Deeproot again...

Skit B actually made 4 games. Literally some kids in the basement.

DeepRoot?

#19155 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

A Haggis Pinball customer knocked on the door and was welcomed in and given a tour of the new facility.
Pinsider Screwloose and his son-in-law asked questions during the informal tour and were allowed to take pictures which he posted in the Haggis thread. You can read his own words but he seemed very impressed by what he saw and felt reassured about his money and machine quality.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jaws-by-haggis-pinball/page/26#post-6351352
Quite a contrast to parking lot pictures and the stonewalling that Deeproot customers are forced to endure.

Kim, you know full well that Icepop has an imaginary friend that plays Food Truck every day and says it’s awesome! And that RAZA is even better. Who needs pictures and a factory tour when you can have a fake person not playing a fake game?

#19165 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

That is your shortcomings.
They’ve been at shows… the journey has been on YouTube…. They have customers… they have shown and promoted obtainable goals.
That’s how they differ and why they have a different reputation

And they’re HammerTested goddammit!

#19192 2 years ago

It says everything you need to know about DipPoop that their dedicated thread is now dominated by posts about a newer, smaller company that is actually making and shipping games. And that people actually like and are rooting for.

Bravo RM.

10
#19204 2 years ago
Quoted from denoument:

I thought this was a deeproot thread...

It is, and we should all remember that. It’s an insult to Haggis even being associated with this thread. They deserve better.

13
#19220 2 years ago

Looks like Halloween will be the next game that ships before RAZA.

#19260 2 years ago
Quoted from seenev:

Wasn't there a requirement that to be eligible for the second draw of PPP, you have to show that your revenue was down 25% or more quarter over quarter? How can that possibly apply to deeproot?

Indeed!

Nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’, and ya gotta have somethin’, if you’re gonna PPP.

#19301 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

...Iceman is starting to grow on me.

It’ll pass.

#19321 2 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Ice is one of those guys that can be easy to like or easy to hate. He doesn't care, hes just gonna tell you what he thinks regardless. I respect that.

I respect people that consider what they say before they say it, and don’t spout ignorant nonsense. There are a lot of people ‘just saying what they think’ that don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground. That not worthy of respect in my opinion. Neither is apathy for that matter.

Not saying that’s what Icey (always) does, just commenting on your stated criteria for respect.

#19324 2 years ago

Oh Levi, don’t you have an airborne drink to jump in front of or something?

#19361 2 years ago

So is NicerSoul Corny or Kaneda?

11
#19381 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

…without that PPP money they don’t get this far.

This far. LOL.

#19413 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Looks like Halloween will be the next game that ships before RAZA.

Looks like Ultraman will also be the next game that ships before RAZA.

#19429 2 years ago

Spooky is playing with its food (truck) in comparison to DeepRoot.

Of course, no one will ever play Food Truck.

#19449 2 years ago

Look on the bright side, UltraDork is still available as a theme, and it fits DeepRoot to a T.

#19450 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Look on the bright side, UltraDork is still available as a theme, and it fits DeepRoot to a T.

“FailOweenie” is available as well.

#19543 2 years ago

My morning dump felt like the 6th day of DeepRoot.

#19567 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I’ve always wanted a a dinosaur to eat my balls - BOOM - Jurassic Park!!!

Which is exactly why Smaug wasn’t allowed to.

Filth!

#19568 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I can’t believe we’re in a Deeproot thread…

BOOM! Damn good call. They’ve never came close to releasing a game. They’re utter screwups and braggarts to boot. Why are we in a thread about these never were’s?

#19575 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You are correct, but what is your point?
People are willing to accept these things with Spooky Pinball (as proven by the sales success of Halloween/Ultraman) because Spooky is a family run business, Charlie is a great guy and people want to support him, they are a boutique company that isn't anywhere close to Stern in terms of size or manufacturing ability, they have more unique themes, and excellent customer service.
While you can compare them to Stern (they both make pinball machines), they are very, very different companies, and with that comes different expectations.

Spooky got balls. Stern got accountants.

#19611 2 years ago
Quoted from SLAMT1LT:

I'm always amused when I see people play a JJP game....they hardly ever look up at the big tele on the backglass. All that money spent on fancy-arsed animations, which adds hardly anything to the gameplay. It's a glorified scoreboard, that's all.

No, actually, it’s freaking awesome. There’s plenty of opportunities to see what’s going on and it’s chockablock with important game information. Oh yeah, and its gorgeous.

Are DMD animations just a glorified scoreboard too? I dig good dots, and some of my favorite pinball moments have occurred with something rad happening on a dmd. Same now with the LCD. Rad LCD = radder pinball experience.

You may prefer spinning white wheels with numbers on them. You be you.

And yes, radder is totally a word. Ask PJ Soles.

#19821 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Car lot drive by manana with pics.

Save your gas. No one cares.

#19954 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Like I said Ben, it could already be wrapped up shut down. Today was hope for you guys
Actually there was a POS truck with 3 wheels on it behind the fence in the back.

You guys seem to care a whole lot more than I do.
Let me try and put it in perspective for you once again.
1). Most of us have a very small deposit down WITH some nice credits to boot towards a game
2). My local buddy who has played it extensively thinks it’s a “really good fun game”.
3). I know a lot more about what’s going on than I care to share.
4). See #1 above? I dropped a shit load of $$$ in the market this week. High six figs, after making more the previous week. Thus, this little drama fest is very LOW on my give a shit meter.
5). I like F ing with you guys because it’s so high on your give a shit meters and that’s fun! Staying in is worth every penny this thread has delivered in entertainment value.
The real drama won’t be about pinball, trust me on that one

Save your gas. No one cares.

#20022 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I think you’re waaaaaay overestimating what people in pinball make, let alone people working for a startup. But hey, if Bowden has been able to milk RM for that much, the more power to him.

I like Steve a lot, but he’s probably eating breakfast tacos from a food truck each morning, a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch, and two pieces of pizza at night…

And sleeping on a couch somewhere in the facility.

#20100 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I’m a very prestigious CPA tax and estate planning attorney. Do you know what that is?


#20101 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Very off topic but as it came up I need to clear up some "history"
Sorry Stemmy, look up the history behind Enron and

4 people in an Arthur Anderson office in Texas killed the entire Arthur Anderson brand. My wife and I both worked for Accenture back in the days following the arbitrated divorce of AC IT consultants from AA into their own company/brand. AA was blamed for the whole Enron debacle, yet it was only the fault of those four people in one office. A whole bunch of innocent CPAs, support staff, and Corporate accountants lost their jobs as AA imploded and their clients/customers all pulled their work from AA. Accenture, however, had recently changed from Anderson Consulting to the new brand name of "Accenture" and so was spared from the AA downfall. It was touch and go there for a little while as Anderson Consulting employees chewed all their fingernails off worrying the related shame would suck their brand into the maelstrom... but AC was known for delivering, and as Accenture, kept up that part of their brand reputation and survived. Any CPA in the business should know (and remember) this event and cautionary tale, so don't throw all the AA CPA's under the Enron bus, just the four who deserved it.

I’d suggest there’s a “middle truth” somewhere. Gutting a billion dollar concern (and throwing an entire industry into chaos) because of 4 rogue accountants doesn’t pass the smell test. There was more to it than that.

#20149 2 years ago
Quoted from kevmad:

How did this thread wander off into Enron and Arthur Anderson and the origin of German surnames? Very interesting stuff but it maybe should be in another thread?
Of the 20,000 posts I wonder how many are related to deep root?
It really makes it hard to keep up with what’s happening with deep root.
Mods can you please try and keep this on topic?

Let me help you out here: NOTHING is going on at DeepRoot.

#20152 2 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

…the building's realty listing literally says OFFICE FOR SALE - AVAILABLE IMMEDIATELY…how quickly would he have to move all of the capital equipment out?https://www.cbre.us/properties/properties-for-lease/office/details/US-SMPL-55014/-12621-silicon-drive-78249?view=isSale

What capital equipment?

#20427 2 years ago
Quoted from Jjsmooth:

Hes not the only one

Context much?

#20578 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

For editing together what we all already knew, have discussed, and have said here for years?
Yes, quite the special genius to pull that edit together...
What would be more amazing is if Robert tasked his people to do the same exact thing to kaneda

Lighten up Francis. It was an exceptionally well crafted and well timed podcast.

-1
#20625 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

https://m.soundcloud.com/kanedapinball/deep-thoughts-by-deeproot-part-1
Oh…
Oh wow..
I didn’t know it was this bad.
I thought you guys were being negative nancy over here 24/7.
But to tell you the truth i am shocked.
I know it’s a montage but still.
Never heard RM speak before up until now since i rarely come here.
I check in for news sometimes since i am actually in on a deeproot machine.
But this is really bad.
Is that guy actually okay?
Cuz this sounds very fucking strange to me.
He better starts paying me money btw?
This pin is overdue
I have to listen again man…wow.
And what is that 5 days of deeproot stuff about??
[quoted image]

Welcome to the middle truth.

#20627 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Maybe when it's over, and the real stories are shared, then Ice will understand.

We’ll all be playing Fire and Brimstone before that ever happens.

#20726 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Here is what is going to happen the remainder of this year & 2022. There are going to be numerous new companies or groups entering the pinball manufacturing world. My guess is 5 - 10, & they will be starting of small to Spooky, Haggis, Heighway, Dutch, etc. level of production. So 5 - 40 new pinball machines per week each. This is from around the world, not only North America.
My thoughts on Deep Root is one of the new groups will be their contract manufacturer. The pinbar might actually been figured out for production, not what we think it is. My guess would be some molded plastic or resin, not tradional steel with the screen built in. The first pin would be released around 150 units (RAZA) ramping up to what ever new demand is from distributors & others after the first 20 - 50 start going out. You go back to the old method of demand for your first pin & cut it off production 60 - 90 days of future production for that run. Never to go back! Get ready with all your pinbar models & keep doing it the same way. Once & done, build up buy it now, or find one later.
Wish more people would be more positive towards pinball production around the world. But I guess Deep Root is a easy mark with all the comments & lack of production so far. If they are going to move forward the rest of this year is the time to do it.
People have seen all the failures from 1980 to now, & all the new players who failed or survived the last 10 years. If you look at this you can see more groups would try their luck at pinball production.
I continue to consult with numerous parties. Who will likely enter the pinball scene this year, or early 2022. Deep Root & others in the industry can reach out to me if they want. You never know what the other major players might be up to!

I really have no clue what you’re going on about.

#20798 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Think of all the Christmas and partridge family and oak ridge boys LP you find at the thrift stores... old crappy EMs and woodrails (and SS games) are just like those. Bad art, boring gameplay, too many made, no one wants.
Of course, as the supply dries up, even the bad examples slowly become desirable...

I’ve spent the better part of the last 2 decades oblivious to the fact that the Oak Ridge Boys ever existed.

Thanks a lot.

#20800 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

How does that compare to DR money wise?

Oh, to be sure, DR’s scam/theft/sheer failure (pick any two) is an order of magnitude greater than Skit B’s.

18
#20855 2 years ago

I’m heading to Allentown today to see and play real pinball machines. It’s kinda a thing.

#21076 2 years ago
Quoted from Yoreland:The Latest:
Dear RAZA Customer:
We are sorry for the length of time without an update. We have been contacted by a few of you within the last few weeks. The main topics were how many people took the refund offer (3), is the refund offer still available (No), and what the status of the RAZA builds are.
A legal matter affecting RAZA arose around a month ago that we did not expect. We were advised by counsel to not send out any substantive communication while they worked to resolve it amicably. We have taken that advice while patiently waiting for it to be resolved. The back-and-forth has taken much, much longer than we expected. So we are providing this brief update so you understand what the delay is about.
We cannot discuss the parties or what the complaint is about. We cannot provide a timeline. What we can say is that we are working hard to resolve/settle it and we hope will be resolved very soon. We will be able to give a meaningful update at that time. Until then...
-Robert J. Mueller, Principal
deeproot Pinball

Rotflmao. In other words: “we’re disingenuous, full of shit and you guys are idiots”.

There is ZERO reason they couldn’t update on game parts, supply chain, production, UL,etc.especially if any future titles are planned. Wha a crock.

These guys are absolute buffoons.

#21096 2 years ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

I’ve been a bit out of the loop, how’s the gameplay on these?

Understatement of the year.

14
#21113 2 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

How does Steve Bowden fit into all of this?
He went to DR as a voice of credibility and really talked up what was coming. I’m guess that a lot of us let his promising appraisal of the situation act as a good barometer of how real things were.
I remember hearing him on a podcast basically saying ‘just wait, what’s happening is awesome.’
There’s no way he was duped, right? If I’m not mistaken, he relocated himself to TX. He must have seen a total lack of manufacturing capability? If the warning signs were there when the media arrived, you think he would have been sus when he arrived, too?
It doesn’t make any sense. His reputation

But what’s Bowden’s reputation? Nice guy, truly elite player. But what else? He’s not an institution in this hobby nor any more a pillar of credibility in this matter than Barry Oursler or anyone else that signed up and is still there.

He went in bright eyed, bushy tailed and under strict NDA, just like every other rooter. He’s not the first or the last to join a company whilst being fed a load of bullshit, without any grasp of the real situation, the motivations of leadership and the desired end game. In fact, I’d wager most of us have done the same thing.

This ongoing JPOP/RAZA nonsense is, has been, and may ever be the biggest steaming pile of shit this hobby will ever see.

10
#21116 2 years ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Ah, they’ve been delayed? That’s why I haven’t seen any on location. I remember hearing about the zombie amusement park pin a couple of years ago and was definitely interested, it seemed like a kitsch theme.
I was thinking of buying one but didn’t want to put money does without having a chance to play - good thing I didn’t! Hopefully those who preordered get their game soon, do we know when they will be released?

You’re adorable!

#21129 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Also funded with my money, which was $16,000 paid in full, unlike your tiny AIW deposit.
There were 19 Magic Girl owners and something like 20 to 25 MG games produced. Everybody on the MG list got their machines or sold their spots. *Everybody, not just me*. Even Iceman's BFF, wcbrandes got 2 MG's and I tip my hat to the man. Well done, Bill. I'm just sorry your friend is continually throwing you (and others) under the bus trying to get to me.
I sold my pre-order spot, to Kaneda. After mine, others began selling and I was told at least one sold for $50K. Likely 2 of them sold for that. And from what I read from other sellers back then, I'd put the average MG sale price at $25-$35K in 2017.
Also sold long before mine were a string of at least a dozen RAZA spots for various prices.
In other words, people were making moves while Iceman choose to sit and yell from his keyboard as he continues today. The man is nothing but talk.
For a guy who has me blocked on Pinside, Iceman sure is obsessed with me.

I question those prices Kim. I recall Kaneda wanted to “corner the MG” market by buying Cointaker’s before refinding his brain. I recall he even welshed on Cointaker once realizing his sheer folly. And subsequently he also lost money on his MG sale.

Of course it wouldn’t surprise me if some rich guy(s) with nothing better to do paid stupid money for a MG. If so I’m glad they did. Because Magic Girl sucks and is basically unplayable.

#21202 2 years ago

In Vegas and heading over to the Pinball Hall of Fame in a few hours. They have real games to play. Fancy that?

#21315 2 years ago
Quoted from Beechwood:

Pretty sure you would be arrested for flipping a food truck in new York. Plus you would have to be extremely strong to do so. But more feasible than playing a pin from dr

Lev flipping over an NYC food truck is more likely than him ever playing a DeepRoot Food Truck.

#21316 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

OMG! Everybody owes to themselves to listen to this from 14:00-19:10. In 5 minutes, Robert gives Stern some free manufacturing advice So many trade secrets and patents. RM reminds me of Russel Crowe in Beautiful Mind. He’s probably writing numbers and equations with wax pens on a a clear board or window near you. I haven’t laughed this loudly in a long while.

25 - 30 patents. Warranties an order of magnitude stronger than current industry standard. “Rugged games”. Sledge hammer to every playfield. Rules are easy. Jpop is really good at rules. Only sales will restrict the speed of our manufacturing/game delivery.

The whole pod is comedy gold.

#21317 2 years ago
Quoted from denoument:

What would happen if this forum switched its attitude and had only good things to say about deeproot? Would deeproot be more open about its progress? I really doubt anyone with money on the line cares if they actually get a pinball machine at this point. I'm thinking if we're nice we increase our chances of deeproot finishing RAZA. Let's all say good things about deeproot and see if RM changes his discourse.
I'm going to start:
I know the internet is harsh but know that some people just want to see more pinball machines in the world. RAZA would be a machine with a heck of a story. And I'd love to see it someday.

#21340 2 years ago

Its fine. This is part of how they enhance the Total Ownership Experience.

#21475 2 years ago
Quoted from denoument:

If right now there is a 1 in 24 chance that RAZA gets released. Then if pinside backed deeproot collectively on the forums then maybe the odds go up to 1 in 12 chance. No data to back those numbers. I'm putting value on pinside users comments. I'm sure a lot of the success of pinball today from any company is largely due to pinside.

Let’s all save Deep Root! We’ll do it in your honor, with RM’s price tag being that the next theme must be “Short Bus”.

#21481 2 years ago
Quoted from denoument:

…change the discourse to "You [DR] had a good run but…”

We’d be changing more than the discourse. If we said that we’d be changing history.

#21505 2 years ago
Quoted from denoument:

Other than Zidware customers did the new buyers lose much? Wasn't the down-payment $600? I think anyone with a stake in this company doesn't care if they lose it.

Cough, yelobird, cough. $20k up front I believe.

#21597 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

wow - thats nuts. Yelobird hope you get it back but I seriously doubt it.

He’s been oddly quiet. Last week he was posting he had no concerns about getting his game.

*Correction, he did just post in the other thread something along the lines of “so a few websites have been deleted, which means?”

#21600 2 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

I just want to say what a goddamn delight it's been having Ben around on the boards all this time. I'm glad you came back, man. It was a shocker when you showed up here on Pinside, and it still kinda blows my mind that you waste your time with us schlubs at all.

It’s because he’s cool and doesn’t take himself too seriously. All the self proclaimed “righteous” pinballers - including manufacturers - that are too good for Pinside…aren’t.

#21623 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

The post above is from the other thread, but I wanted to respond here. I remembered pointing this out previously in this thread when he talked about how excited he was that Zidware customers were going to get restitution.

I prefer how you phrased it!

13
#21624 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Anyone wanna go back and search rec.games.pinball? I’m pretty sure I said Jpop would fail on the day of the $16,000 Magic Girl announcement. I said the financials made zero sense. Who would be paid to program? Compose music? Create animation? Build? When RAZA was announced I said “what about the first game?!?!” It was clearly a Ponzi scheme to get more money to finish MG. Then Alice was announced…I could not believe anyone would keep sending this guy money. That’s why this is so crazy that people did it AGAIN!!!! Fool me once…but four times?!?!

4 times should now be known as “getting Iced”.

#21628 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Or how about buying project pinball raffle tickets with all that money?
You know, a gamble they actually had a chance to win?

How about just buying an actual fucking game? Many could, considering some of the losses incurred.

#21639 2 years ago

I fear this thread may lose a little steam now that the air is out of the purple balloon. So how about this theory:

ICEY is the one suing RM, and he’s just messing with us in these threads?

#21663 2 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

There is so much bs here I don't know how you can single one or two people out. You have people completely against jpop and deeproot cheering for their demise. Others are hoping for success and all kinds of people on the sidelines. Everyone is trying to be the "I told you so" guy and spout rumors as facts. Nobody knew how things will turn out and still don't. Of course hindsight is always 20/20.

Ahh! So you’re the guy that can’t see the forest for the trees! I can cross that one off now. Good!

#21667 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Trying to pin down an official birthday for BH/RAZA so we can celebrate a decade together (aside: fittingly, the traditional 10-year anniversary gift is tin or aluminum).
Question: What do you go with to mark the start date (first public mention, order banks opening, something else)?
Here's one contender: press release announcing commercial product (October 25, 2011).
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/2011-10-25-ben-heck-gets-into-the-pinball-business-for-real-pre-orders-beg.html
[quoted image]

I mean, this has long outlived their “sweeping the culture hot theme”. This is so out of touch now that the theme might as well be “The 50’s”, or “Texas Hold ‘Em”, or “Britney Spears” or “Bell Bottom Blues”. What a bunch of colossal fuck ups.

#21669 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Aloha from Maui. Another beautiful day in paradise!
I actually received a text alerting me that the DR thread was blowing up from Kaneda while I was on the Plantation golf course in Kapalua. Awesome experience btw
Did I miss something? Carry on
Mahalo

You’ve missed pretty much everything.

#21727 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

joke removed - looks like some serious shit is getting ready to launch.

Shit or no, RAZA will never launch.

#21728 2 years ago
Quoted from pinstyle:

Corporate welfare at its finest. And those people make fun of people in the bread line......

Hey, as long as Icey gets his game.

#21730 2 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

Is this real?
Taken from SAPS Facebook page.
[quoted image]

Looks about as real as RAZA.

#21757 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The problem with this is its not “I told you so, I’m smart,” it’s “I told you so, but literally any idiot could have seen what’s coming. A 9-year old German Shepard probably could have figured out sending deep root money was a bad idea. A cabbage realized this.”
It’s less of a brag and more of a sense of shock and disbelief.

So what you’re saying is that we can’t call the other thread “the cabbage patch”, because they aren’t smart enough to be referred to as cabbage heads?

#21830 2 years ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

I can be surprised too that people sent DR preorder money, even with all the red flags a lot of people saw.
Some people were able to overlook those. Some just wanted a cool game, some probably got greedy and thought it would be a good game to flip for a profit. Saying any idiot could have seen it coming is not super helpful to those who were just overly optimistic.
If someone was just in it for the greed, I can't be bothered to feel bad your gamble did not pay off. That is different than actively feeling joy for your loss. A lot more people seemed in it for the urge to see something different. And in their case we all lose because a DR that delivered on their crazy promises would have been an interesting addition to the pinball mix!

Enough with the “joy for their loss” BS. That has nothing to do with it.

#21831 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:Had a terrible thought. What if Ice is involved with trying to save or buy out RAZA?

They deserve each other. But maybe greatwichjohnny can help save the day!

#21832 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Yes it may show UL listing in Canada or USA or not. There are many on the Canada site that I have no idea. Hate to say it but maybe this is like the WMS days of dumping pinball for the slot or future gaming market. Maybe Robert is smarter than what we think!

OMG.

#21840 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

This thread is like driving by a car accident. You know its bad for everyone, but you still have to slow down and look anyway to be reminded of reality.

It’s not bad for anyone. Except deep derp and jshit.

#21855 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Its bad for anyone else who wants to start a pinball company some day. You telling me that large scale scammers don't hurt the pinball community as a whole?

this THREAD isn’t bad for anyone. And neither is the other one, despite all the (laughable) accusations of vitriol and hate. Because YES, scammers* are bad for the hobby. But after 10 years ya just gotta laugh.

*like derp rootz and Jshitpop

#21858 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Heighway actually had a factory & got some stuff built. I think the amount of money Andrew ran out of is tiny compared to what RM has wasted….but if you’re underwater by any amount, you can’t pay people…and if you can’t pay people, you’re done. The second RM hired tons of designers & a huge animation team, it was over.

I’ve actually played the two games Heighway made. Fancy that.

11
#21913 2 years ago

This is one cool, motherfucking cat. He’s all about the game. Shoulda hired him.

Fuck off Deeproot.

BA3C0433-47BA-4A78-9CE3-2255CDA8E5AE (resized).jpegBA3C0433-47BA-4A78-9CE3-2255CDA8E5AE (resized).jpeg
24
#21975 2 years ago

These are the “brudders”, Manny and Sandy. They told me to wake them up when RAZA ships. I took this picture in December. They’re still sleeping.

914330FF-E92A-48E6-83C2-C16E7FF728CC (resized).jpeg914330FF-E92A-48E6-83C2-C16E7FF728CC (resized).jpeg
16
#21976 2 years ago

This is the Queen, Charlotte. She says derpplop can scratch her belly or fuck off.

E8D25062-85F8-4430-BBB0-88845B0AD41A (resized).jpegE8D25062-85F8-4430-BBB0-88845B0AD41A (resized).jpeg
#21986 2 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

Where did the furlough info come from?

Dude, stay on point! Post a pet pic please.

BTW: dudes in the other thread are all like “damn, I want to post a picture of MY adorable pet in that other thread so bad! but what a bad look….”

#22355 2 years ago
Quoted from Yoreland:

Not nice. John heralded you as smarter than everyone in the room... or the garage. You knew you were too Absent minded, attention deficient, kind hearted creatives need a manager. You could have pulled a Lumberg and taken the helm and said John, i'm gonna go ahead and take it from here. Jpop will creative direct and design the layout, period. You undervalued your own worth and ceded control to to him. Hindsight 20/ 20. Not like you needed the gig. Jpop is not everyones punching bag. I paid in full for Raza. I don't blame John. I honestly don't blame anyone.
Now, RM, what the fuck?

#22374 2 years ago
Quoted from Beechwood:

Notice how they can't say "yes". Guess that would open them up to more liability.
The best they can do is say they care.
From deep root page FAQ December 2020
[quoted image]

I find their response fascinating, telling and unsurprising.

#22409 2 years ago
Quoted from Yoreland:

Excuse me, Ben didn't have to put up with anything. He knows what's going on he was just waiting for the next ship to come in. Luckily it was spooky. I admire everything Ben has done and think hes a swell guy. How's that? And J pop is a scattered brained nincompoop and I think he swell as well. Be nice. That is all.

#22560 2 years ago

Ok, ok, so wait a minute.

Did Jpop really show up at Expo in a Range Rover with a Jpop license plate?

13
#22653 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

The group that went silent & continue to say they are not Deeproot. Time will tell the tale of truth or fiction. Same with the group that bought me out. Pinball is hot is all I am suppose to say at this time. People can look at my past recent posts about what I have tried to say about the industry. Same with people are interested in playfield production, compared to problems with JJP & Mirco.

Honestly dude, no one cares. Until games are rolling off the line and ready for delivery, no new company will get any sort of foothold. And any company that doesn’t understand that going in is doomed to fail.

I’ll say, on behalf of the entire hobby, to any potential new pinball venture: “Show me or shut up”.

#22757 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Life as a repo man is always intense.

That’s why repo men do speed.

584EC89C-03AF-4F4A-9AD3-A6F9AB30BBFB.gif584EC89C-03AF-4F4A-9AD3-A6F9AB30BBFB.gif
#22804 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Going to step back from this thread. The personal attacks towards my trying to help out groups wanting to actually produce new pinball machines is not worth it here. Tired of the drinking, drugs, & paint fume crap insult crap on this site towards me. Same with I must be no expert on anything towards pinball.
Focus my time on actually helping others have more pinball products or games for sale. Never thought I would consider some of these posts a sewer, but it seems that way to me! So I will get back to enjoying playing pinball on location. I work with operators & owners keeping their games going. Likely I will be involved with some interesting pinball projects in 2022.
Even some pinball podcasts do not get their info correct. I will leave that one for people that know to see what was not said.

Ok.

#22958 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

There's some serious petard hoisting on page 11. Robert's insistence that he and only he is in charge of and responsible for everything might not be such a good thing, after all.

“Designed the IT systems”, performed the “clerical work”. Hoo boy. What a guy.

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

1,2,3 graphic ripe for an update
https://deeprootfunds.com/
[quoted image]

A Ferrari at KIA prices

Quoted from NoQuarters:

Do you think the handful of people in the RAZA preorder thread will still be in denial and think they are going to get games ? Or does this convince them it isn't happening. This really isn't a big surprise.
Yeah - RM " we have some legal stuff to clear up" or whatever he said on the last update.

What do you think?

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

I'm just ashamed I never found MB Hale Ohana Revocable Trust (though its online presence amounts to only this SEC doc). Familiar with all of the other entities named. Sorry for those I let down.

If a playable RAZA ever manages to make its way into someone’s home, it better freaking feature “Hale Ohana Revocable Trust” multi-ball!

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

So for something like this, he cuts a plea deal and ends up in prison for how long?

Depends. Did the Sackler’s include him on their immunity list?

#22962 2 years ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:What does Ice buy into next ?

He’s friends with a Nigerian prince that really likes this new proto game called “Blood Diamond”. Ice is in for a Super Lux.

#22964 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I don’t want to pry too much into his personal life, but I hope Bowden is ok (besides the missed paychecks)
I think his love of pinball was exploited to add legitimacy to the operation and it must have been a lot of pressure on him.

But what about poor Barry?

#22969 2 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

so iceman, tell me again how that deepfunds 575 works again? oh its a funnel to squander money? got it

I know right? Every. Single. Prospectus. I’ve ever read warns that past performance is no indication of future results (unless you’re speaking of Jpop). And yet this 575 mumbo jumbo guarantees a return on investment regardless. Where does the rubber meet the road?

Some of these financial types are just pure shysters, spewing out Bob Loblaw nonsense to the point where people just tune out and assume they know what their talking about because…you know…their wealthy.

When makers become takers…

#23038 2 years ago
Quoted from spinal:

Maybe we should celebrate those that discuss issues in the open instead of those like RM and others that shill and cover up the truth and just tell you what you’d like to hear, always carefull not to offend.
The shills of this industry bear some responsibility.

Wha? This entire thread has been a celebration of truth and skepticism for at least a year. Hard for Kaneda? What’s hard for Kaneda?

#23042 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:At least when you know your name is gonna be in the news you wipe all your stuff so the reporters don’t have an easy go at it.

Imagine, the real media interviewing the pinball media about a fake company and non existent pinball machine.

29
#23046 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

While you guys are all doing the happy dance, $58 million of investor $$$, placed by their trusted investment advisors, are going to get F Ed for at least some portion of their money.

And you were the fiddle player. Especially recently, with all your cryptic “I know something you don’t know” BS. Sit down counselor.

Quoted from iceman44:

No one knew how bad the fund was actually performing…

Especially you, and yet you shilled on and on and…

Quoted from iceman44:

For me, I’m happy now….

How nice for you. No one cares.

#23060 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Yeah I don’t know all the facts … !

Oh brother, you can say that again.

#23163 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I just pictured Doug in his Jack Daniels golf cart, yelling at people and shaking his fist as he plays the back nine in reverse order.

Sorry Kim, that must have been diarrhea inducing.

#23165 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:Hey has Robert been outed as Mormon yet?
Yup. He's Mormon.

Oh damn! You mean wives one and two are still there!?

#23192 2 years ago
51683700-34E3-4DCA-9585-8709B2AB5EF8.jpeg51683700-34E3-4DCA-9585-8709B2AB5EF8.jpeg
#23196 2 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

I mean there’s a big difference between poking fun at religious traditions via a musical and Ben basically implying that Mormons are criminals, which was the gist of his “I’m outing him as a Mormon”. It was in poor taste. Mormons don’t get to control what other Mormons do. Bernie Madoff was Jewish but it doesn’t matter, his actions are completely unrelated to that fact and bringing it up as something to “out” someone is shitty

Eh, Mormon history is wacky as hell. I don’t think Ben was accusing Mormons of being criminals. Just “out there”. For the record, I think a lot of Christian mythology is unbelievable too. Doesn’t mean Mormons or Christians are bad people.

The Mormon organization is also quite secretive, so maybe Ben was also alluding to that? I think it’s a big stretch to call Ben a bigot.

#23380 2 years ago
Quoted from NickBuffaloPinball:

15 minutes of this douchebag reinventing the box for non-existant games he'll never ship.
Can't wait for the documentary.

Ha! They redefined the pinball ownership experience alright! You own it but can’t play it, because it doesn’t exist! You experience NOTHING!

#23382 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Ha! They redefined the pinball ownership experience alright! You own it but can’t play it, because it doesn’t exist! You experience NOTHING!

And how many times when transporting a NIB in the outdated cardboard box style of packaging do you pull over to ensure that the machine is still stable inside the box? Oh, never? Ok. Well, you should do that with the PinPod because…innovation.

#23386 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

But it was such an awesome name it just couldn’t be contained to one scam company.
From the stupid name to the buttplug logo to the obnoxious asshole running all of it to the shitty game they designed with the dumb ramp you couldn’t make to the moronic pinbar gimmick.....
Wow, it was a all such a doozy, wasn’t it? No wonder people kept sending him money. He really got the zeitgeist we saw during that particular flashpoint in time, and the kind of bullshit people across the entire country were buying into.

Anyone that sent money after the PinPod reveal.

#23390 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Yep. I donated to Kaneda.

Ahem. Brenda.

#23545 2 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Also Millionaire Matchmaker

Oh wow. “Dry eggs”, lol!

#23548 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:It's definitely critical to keep trying to make these stupid games because one decade of wasted effort isn't enough and there also aren't literally an infinite number of other scandal-free themes that could be made instead.

But what if there was a goodwill effort, by a benevolent millionaire? Maybe an African gold digging IT systems designer with a law degree and a knack for making money? I mean, the principles of gravitivity and polarity indicate that it could happen! Because RAZA looks so fun!

#23561 2 years ago
Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

If I didn't know any better, I'd think Robert is a blowhard dipshit who has no idea what the fuck he is doing!

Yup. Mix in some possible ADHD , low empathy, serial narcissism and criminal aspirations and you’ve got quite the loser cocktail.

#23620 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Girlfriend: What's new?
Me: Been reading Pinside. Remember that idiot lawyer in Texas I've told you about. He really screwed the pooch this weekend.
Girlfriend: You told me about two of them. Which one?
Me: Both

#23660 2 years ago

That’s a pretty amusing trip down memory lane.

That man is soooooooooo full of shit.

#23662 2 years ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:This is hilarious. Wonder what’s Dennis & Sterns take on this. I guessing very different.

How about the quote where he uses GB as an example of what NOT to do when “making” (lol) a pinball machine?

#23670 2 years ago

Yes, the Tikimon. Often insulting, usually wrong, always amusing.

#23779 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

[quoted image]

Cue mock up of the prison pod?

#23835 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

Anybody in the market for a signed JPOP magic girl proto drawing?
No?
I’ll make you a good deal!
No?
Okay…
[quoted image]

So John signs artwork he didn’t draw? Checks out.

#23838 2 years ago

.

13
#23957 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Here are a few old ones to bring back memories of the other asshole involved in this scam. Think aboot the NDA'a this guy made "customers" sign had. I wonder if by chance he had the SEC target draft those NDA's as a precursor to their "partnership"?[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

The picture of that “payment coupon” is revolting. It’s actually nauseating and makes me angry.

21780F4B-E29E-4DF1-A4A1-3FE59838C919 (resized).jpeg21780F4B-E29E-4DF1-A4A1-3FE59838C919 (resized).jpeg
#23964 2 years ago
Quoted from mkecasey:

Robert Mueller kind of looks like nerdy Brock Lesnar.
[quoted image]

That’s the picture in the definition of “Choad” in the dictionary.

#23973 2 years ago
Quoted from JStoltz:Johnathon Dropadieuce

John Popasquat.

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