Quoted from bkbirge:
Apparently there's a fine line between confidence and Dunning-Kruger. Great interview though, nice to read a company interview that isn't a soft pedal.
This dunning-Kruger namecheck made my day. Sums it up to a T.
Quoted from ForceFlow:
The more I think about it, the more I'm dumbfounded that these guys wanted to work with and associate with JPOP.
Personally, I have 3-4 game designs sketched out. I'm sure most enthusiasts have doodled some design of their own. It's not that hard to find someone with ideas. If anyone wanders into the homebrew forums here or on other pinball sites, there is a remarkable abundance of talent and interesting designs.
Deeproot could have easily avoided all the unnecessary baggage that came with JPOP. Yet the minute they discovered what a hot potato he was, they doubled down?
And then left the victims who decided to do something about their predicament completely out in the cold?
I'm certainly not getting a warm fuzzy feeling from these guys.
The owner is alleged to be an insurance scammer, isn’t he ? This is just a place for him to park losses for tax avoidance. No machine will ever come out of that office
Quoted from CrazyLevi:
The formula DIDN'T produce masterpieces. His games are for the most part poorly regarded by serious players. They are flawed games that some find gorgeous and some find incredibly tacky, with ridiculous, problem-ridden development cycles and BOMs that helped put Williams out of the pinball business.
People need to stop backing this horse already. The most spectacular failure in pinball history is Jpop's true legacy and most of us are completely sick of this horseshit.
ToM is all right!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:
STEVE: Oh, World Cup. World Cup was taken over.
MARK: It wasn't a bad pin, it's still all right, actually we still operate it.
STEVE: In the end it turned out to be pretty Ok, but in the beginning it was handled by a newbie. The game designer was a stubborn newbie, and it had to be taken over by someone else.
MARK: Did this happen very often?
STEVE: Actually it never happened before unless somebody died or got sick.
MARK: Did he abandon the project or did he just get the sack?
STEVE: Neither. He cooperated, learned and latter did Theatre of Magic and some other really good work. But when he first came in he thought he just knew everything about making pinballs and it is just not that kind of thing. You have to live it for a long time, you must have an affinity for mechanicals and you have to be able to work with other people.
Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it...
Well this is the last deep root post we’ll see around here for a while. The tax dodge is in full effect!!
Quoted from mrgone:
Am I the only one here that's reading between the lines that deeproot is using the law as a weapon and bullying/strong arming apple juice,zombie yeti, American pinball and anyone/everyone else they can. Also stealing Ben heck's bible adventures theme?
I can't be the only one here that sees this.
It seems the machine is just getting started up. Shall we gear up for a patent troll situation? Personally, I think this is a way to spend/pocket money so their insurance company doesn’t officially make a profit, but what do I know?
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:
He's had unsubstantiated allegations against him. One of his accusers has been charged with making false claims against another man. http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/01/26/copperfield.accuser/index.html
That’s a different person
Quoted from deeproot:
Our only response to AP's post is that their statements are not true, they contradict their attorney's private statements, they contradict the contract they voluntarily drafted and entered into with John, and (as to the trademark) appear to contradict federal law. We are proceeding with John's original Houdini design but not the Houdini name; which is consistent with our prior statement.
Box of lights: 10k by Christmas!!
Quoted from flynnibus:
You can say 'F this' and take nothing.. but keep your right to sue the guy and company with no assets and enough flip flops now to make it difficult to collect anything
You can sign up for a promise of discounts on deeproot games
... And at the end if you don't like the deeproot games, you can walk away... and depending on your 'tier' will dictate what relief you would have.
It's basically a tease for huge value on vaporware to lock in people waiving any claims against Popadeuce.
If deeproot fails to deliver... you get your money back (but they'll never let this happen)
If you don't like deeproot's games... if you were in for <5k.. you can get 50% of your money back AFTER the 'delivery date'. Those that put more money in the pot... you would be eligible for that money back (again after the delivery date).
The model is setup to encourage new deposits... with a promise of no risk.
But you know nothing about what games they are delivering... they've made zero games yet plan to be delivering 'multiple' games in less than 18months.
You also stand to be in the same situation you were with zidware... money or things owed to you, with potentially no way to collect.
They are selling promises in exchange for you signing away your claims against Popadeuce. The flip side is... 'something' even promises is still better than 'nothing'. But you get to ride the wave for another 12-18months
Is “delivery date” ever defined? They could just never deliver anything and keep half the money free and clear.
Quoted from lpeters82:
I don't think they are asking for money until the "delivery day". My only fear at this point is that somehow signing this contract could eliminate any legal leverage current customers might have against John / Zidware. Obviously if deeproot comes through with their promises, games "designed and manufactured similar to the commonly known Williams/Bally/Zidware standards", that will likely not be an issue. Though, I'd question tossing Zidware into the list. I just want to know what happens if they fail to meet that "similar to" standard. Further, I would like to know what happens if deeproot fails, as in, they fail to produce the machines, nor have the capitol to refund deposits. I'm assuming this would make this new contract null and void, but I just don't want to see anyone loose there legal leverage.
Keep in mind the owner of deeproot IS AN ATTORNEY. There's a lot of language one can put into a contract that looks benign, but which wipes out any actual meaning. I've not read the thing in depth, but caveat empor.
I do have to say incorporating AR makes a LOT of sense, especially when we look at all the screens being added to games. You might say that DI’s theater and the Ghostbusters EctoGoggles are AR; this is a great way to merge technology with pinball and really bring things forward a couple of years, without just jumping to VR completely; it’s just too fake and gross (see Sony’s pinkeye debacle)
Quoted from toyotaboy:
to be fair, I don't see video playing on the cutting.. For all we know only the luminescent is working. If that is in fact true, I'd be really curious what a 2 foot x 3 foot sheet of OLED costs. It's one thing to manufacture flexible phone displays, it's another to scale that up for giant TV's (or in this case, multimorphic display without compromising where mechs can get placed or how those mechs are controlled with wires).
The yield is incredibly low - lots of dead pixels still; it is still very costly to get a fully working rectangular display. Adding in these cuts and flexibility.. yikes
Quoted from Roostking:
Thats cool. I am too actually. Not sure why Deeproot gets so much hate, but if they help get you guys paid back or a game, shouldn't we all be pulling for them?
Absolutely! But because of all the prior fiascos, people are going to be skeptical until games and/or checks start coming out. Right now it's all talk.. which is all that ever came from JPop. And Heighway & DP arent' much further along yet...
Quoted from Aurich:
I'm hardly a Heighway cheerleader, my frustrations are pretty public, but there are over 100 Aliens shipped, and however many Full Throttles, maybe less than that, but still a real game you could actually play. The company is struggling, their communication sucks, they're constantly digging out of the hole Andrew left them, and I'm not blaming anyone for being frustrated with them too. But games have shipped, the code is real (that's a big one), I don't think they belong next to vaporware.
It's not that I want anyone to get boned, I have friends who lost money with Jpop. But I have a tough love approach to it personally. People took a risk, they got conned, and they lost their money. It sucks. For most people it wasn't a huge sum, but legit thousands. I just don't really think the lesson should be "don't worry, someone will bail you out" and then Jpop gets to have a job again. He should never get to work in the industry again, instead of being enabled. That's my perspective at least.
I'm not losing sleep over it, and if someone is crazy enough to try and take on his debt and make his customers whole I can't be mad about that part. I hope it turns out well.
Can’t argue with any of that .
Quoted from iceman44:
Trusting Jpop was stupid in hindsight
I own it and cut my pmts off early on
I fully paid for TBL though because you bought in that expo Aurich with those Dutch dipshits
Thank the lord Philgate happened shortly thereafter
We all should own our stupid mistakes. I have no problem with it.
As for Alien, only have $1500 into that shitshow
Fast forward, nobody is getting Fed on pre pay model anymore. So that’s a good thing
Live and learn
wait, what was Philgate?
Not sure what’s scarier - JPop with a light saber (cattle prod?!?) or the height of his pants.
Come on, guys.. Deeproot was founded by an attorney. At least half of you have to be smart enough to know that the majority will be legally and definitively screwed by complete means of technicality roulette - minus a few lucky handful to make the whole thing look legit.
Quoted from daudioguy:
panzerfreak - I will only address the audio work: DR is 'paying the cost to be the boss' in this regard. It is my intention for DR machines to have my best work and they have already hired another full-time audio guy. Let's see....how many other pinball companies have one full-time audio guy? That would be none. So DR is addressing what it takes to have a great audio package associated with each DR title. There are also other exciting audio related developments that NDA and digression prevent me from revealing. Let's just say that they are very cool.
The time between now and March will be hard for all of us. For DR it will be hard work to get to the reveal with Robert's vision intact and for the community it will be hard to wait.
I couldn't do anything without a substantial amount of optimism and I have high hopes for DR.
This is really great to hear - audio is SIGNIFICANTLY deficient in all machines; we really have to go above and beyond to improve on things that are really basic at this point. AP's Houdini has a next-step-up audio component, with a dedicated serious amp, and the 6-speaker array, but the sound package is themed as to sound "old-timey" and doesn't show off the bombastics the sound system is able to produce. Also, no woofer. Stern's Iron Maiden should have an extreme, amazing aound system (I think the LE has something nicer than the Premiums) but the sound on that game is actually pretty poor, considering. This is definitely a positive development.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:
A resin playfield is a big innovation as it won't dimple and it lends itself to multiple surface types. They don't need to worry about whether 8 ply or 12 ply walnut is good enough and whether their source for blanks is consistent. A flat playfield could include an area with raised mounds and craters like the moon's surface.
Other possible design elements - use air to move the ball via suctioning instead of a vertical mounted magnet. I'd like to see magnets deployed in place of all coils, vuks, flippers and slingshots. Doing that and swapping arm and rollover switches with optos would kill their need for the common playfield parts used today. Ok maybe keep the flippers,but everything else has got to go. Poured material is probably easier to embed and attach wire forms and ramps to also. I hope they add a loop ramp and corkscrew ramp to their standard repertoire and that they raise playfield glass height to allow balls to be launched from end of pf to the other. Could we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches? I'm serious, can we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches and a magnet grab it, please?
All of these would combine to simplify DR's manufacturing process and Operators would see lower operating cost, minimum maintenance and games that work. But innovation costs more money than the traditional way to do things until you implement in volume. For that reason DR won't be producing many $3.5k games. But if their pins are fun and worth the cost, they can meet their objectives and maybe they will succeed. What other innovations could DR's pinball future hold?
I’m curious about the weight factor when using resin or an epoxy composite - I have some guitars made from a similar substance and they are HEEEEEAVY!! when we have 350 pound games coming and going from JJP, an additional heavy play field is a bit of a concern. One thing though, it definitely will never dimple or crack from play.
Quoted from Brijam:
Citations please, or I call bullshit.
Those batteries have a massive lifecycle - they're expected to be used for decades after they're taken out of the car for other uses.
I refer to the highly liberal-leaning Forbes magazine, which says the footprint of manufacturing the car (slightly more than the manufacture of a traditional petroleum engine) is dramatically and several-orders-of-magnitude outweighed by the CO2 savings of not using gas to power the car over its lifetime.
Quoted from Brijam:
Oh, that rag. Their conclusions are debunked here, I assume you will trust Popular Mechanics as a fair source:
Back to the topic of deeproot, I for one hope they do great stuff and shake the industry up.
The only hard limit I can think of is the software. Throwing people at the software side of the problem will just make it take longer.
Does anyone know if they're using something like P-ROC or developing their own system from scratch? AP is using P-ROC, aren't they?
Awesome link; that supports the Forbes article
Fully agree on the software front. Yes, AP is using P-roc. Makes total sense to me to move to a common platform - my only tiny complaint about P-ROC is the boot time. Otherwise it is pretty easy to develop against and very lightweight which is awesome!
Quoted from hank527:
I thought it was trying to provoke.
Heighway, Kevin Kulek, Jpop all took money from people and failed to deliver games. Most knew exactly what they were doing and still continued along. Nuff said.
I’m inferring that you are saying they knew exactly what they were doing in taking people’s money... not in delivering games, because they sure as hell didn’t know what they were doing in terms of getting games delivered...
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:
No totally different design. If DP wants to develop a magic themed pin, there is room for another, but market saturation might bite them in the ass. But when Josh was building Houdini he had to get a license so I can't see DR being able to pick the same license. Rethemed as David Copperfield or a David Blaine though, might breathe some fresh air into their design. Particularly challenging to building another Houdini pin are that his best known tricks are already captured by AP and the dialog and screens they provide are historically accurate and educational. Just doesn't make any sense to proceed on another Houdini. :pullingarabbitoutofmyhat:
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:
Well we've guessed 3 of the top 5 greatest magician already. Before you look, do you know he other two licenses?
I absolutely adore Penn & Teller, but even they would admit there are better magicians. Well known magicians? They are the top. Greatest magicians? Houdini, Copperfield, burton, Ricky Jay, Dai Vernon
Quoted from rubberducks:
IMO it wasn't *just* the fact that it was a broken, totally unworkable diorama ... it looked hideous.
Take a look at a picture of it. Cabinet and translite were fine (though I prefer the production model's seemless translite / screen integration). But, no offence to the artist - he was working to do what JPop wanted - the playfield and plastics looked awful.
Albeit I think Magic Girl looks like a complete dog's dinner. Others seem to disagree.
It looks fine.. but dated. It looks like it would have been a fantastic partner to TOTAN or TOM. Which obviously makes sense. But AP Houdini looks like it was made this year... much more restrained and dare I say classier
Quoted from YKpinballer:
Meh, this guy seems like another pied piper to me.
funny, in back-to-back posts you first complain about another pinsider's post turning the thread into a "general pinball thread" when it actually has some real information about the actual facility itself - and you follow it up with a complete troll know-it-all-post. Hey, is there an achievement for that?!
Quoted from pin2d:
After we had a chance to do a tour at deeproot last week, a deeproot article will be posted tomorrow morning!
It'll be one of the most interesting articles to ever appear on TWIP.
Obligatory teaser! We'll cover:
The Tour at deeproot
Is it "Pinball"?
The Break Room
deeproot Departments and Processes
- The Guts
- Playfield Designers
- Programming and Product Development
The Oval Room
Check it out tomorrow!
Uh oh... >> Is it "Pinball"?
Quoted from frolic:
Lol. When were those 3 words used to describe any other pinball startup? Even the P3 qualifies as "pinball", no one contests that. I'm intrigued, but not sure in what sense.
Perhaps they are doing very nice VP tables. Better have multi-level transparent displays like I’ve been talking about
Quoted from Rondogg:
That's been my guess for months, based on their huge development team (in Utah?) and hardly any manufacturing discussion. And all this talk of "revolutionizing" pinball technology. And now Stern is going Oculus Rift?
I hope I'm wrong.
Me too. But luckily there’s JJP still. And AP. I’m sure Stern will continue to make real pinball
Quoted from rubberducks:
Discussion has previously been about replacing or augmenting pf glass with it.
A 1.5" screen operating a 'hologram' isn't innovative or in any way game changing.
It's not really feasible or desirable to do much more than that in pinball.
Not sure If you are replying to me, but IMO we need to think more creatively. 2 (or ideally 3) levels of transparent screens will allow to “float” things above a playfield, yes. But what if the screen IS the playfield? You can create depth with a flat layer at bottom, a middle layer for plastics and lane guides, and a top layer for big toys, mechs, and ramps. There, 3D without goggles because it actually IS in 3 dimensions. 3D printer slicer software does this x 10,000 right now.
Quoted from rubberducks:
Thinking creatively won't do anything. Pinball companies don't have R&D budgets that run into the billions.
Per prior posts, neither current transparent LCDs nor OLEDs have fantastic light transmissions properties. Layering them would make it worse. Pixel responsiveness is bad on the LCDs. Low life time, expense and non-availability in large sizes of OLEDs rules them out.
Also, can you imagine how bad it'd be if you developed a fault with or suffered damage to one of the layers?
Deeproot (or anyone else) are right to look for savings and efficiencies where ever they can to reduce build costs and complication, but chasing unicorns is extremely unwise.
I hear ya, but I'm not sure where you're getting costs from. We buy panels of roughly the same size as a pin for about $1K each. So that's a cost per machine of $3,000 or so. Even if the final MSRP is 8K you're still in a good spot.
here's an example of an existing game that uses what I'm talking about. I don't know what this game is exactly, but the screen can be *entirely* full-color (which you don't really see in this video too well), or transparent. There's a little haze where it's not quite as clear as a window, and yes the colors aren't super bright (backlighting or angled sidelighting would help w/ this) :
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:
That is a strawman logical fallacy. No one objects specifically to surface mount, they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component. If surface mount becomes as easy or cheap to repair as through hole is now customer objection will disappear.
With all due respect to Ben, who certainly does know what he is talking about; pinball machines do not need to be squeezed into tiny enclosures that fit in one’s pocket. But I doubt the surface mount thing is about selling $350 replacement boards - it’s probably just cheaper to have them made in the first place.
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