(Topic ID: 203700)

deeproot Pinball thread

By pin2d

6 years ago


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357 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #111 Firsthand information from the Magic Girl programmer. Posted by applejuice (6 years ago)

Post #3026 RAZA promotional video Posted by PinMonk (4 years ago)

Post #5771 First RAZA gameplay video Posted by ZMeny (4 years ago)

Post #5874 RAZA video with more audible game sounds Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5926 First RAZA video with successful ramp completion Posted by zaphX (4 years ago)

Post #5967 Another RAZA gameplay video Posted by flynnibus (4 years ago)

Post #6050 Closeup pictures of key playfield features Posted by Potatoloco (4 years ago)

Post #6133 Video of display animations Posted by LateCenturyMods (4 years ago)

Post #6329 Summary of Robert Mueller's interview Posted by jeffspinballpalace (4 years ago)

Post #6724 RAZA Gameplay video Posted by DS_Nadine (4 years ago)


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#103 6 years ago
Quoted from bkbirge:

Apparently there's a fine line between confidence and Dunning-Kruger. Great interview though, nice to read a company interview that isn't a soft pedal.

This dunning-Kruger namecheck made my day. Sums it up to a T.

#104 6 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

The more I think about it, the more I'm dumbfounded that these guys wanted to work with and associate with JPOP.
Personally, I have 3-4 game designs sketched out. I'm sure most enthusiasts have doodled some design of their own. It's not that hard to find someone with ideas. If anyone wanders into the homebrew forums here or on other pinball sites, there is a remarkable abundance of talent and interesting designs.
Deeproot could have easily avoided all the unnecessary baggage that came with JPOP. Yet the minute they discovered what a hot potato he was, they doubled down?
And then left the victims who decided to do something about their predicament completely out in the cold?
I'm certainly not getting a warm fuzzy feeling from these guys.

The owner is alleged to be an insurance scammer, isn’t he ? This is just a place for him to park losses for tax avoidance. No machine will ever come out of that office

1 month later
#187 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Is there a single "legend" in pinball built upon so little? We are talking about a small handful of games, from decades ago.

Who had to be bailed out by several other designers on *every* game

#195 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

The formula DIDN'T produce masterpieces. His games are for the most part poorly regarded by serious players. They are flawed games that some find gorgeous and some find incredibly tacky, with ridiculous, problem-ridden development cycles and BOMs that helped put Williams out of the pinball business.
People need to stop backing this horse already. The most spectacular failure in pinball history is Jpop's true legacy and most of us are completely sick of this horseshit.

ToM is all right!

#240 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Steve Ritchie:
STEVE: Oh, World Cup. World Cup was taken over.
MARK: It wasn't a bad pin, it's still all right, actually we still operate it.
STEVE: In the end it turned out to be pretty Ok, but in the beginning it was handled by a newbie. The game designer was a stubborn newbie, and it had to be taken over by someone else.
MARK: Did this happen very often?
STEVE: Actually it never happened before unless somebody died or got sick.
MARK: Did he abandon the project or did he just get the sack?
STEVE: Neither. He cooperated, learned and latter did Theatre of Magic and some other really good work. But when he first came in he thought he just knew everything about making pinballs and it is just not that kind of thing. You have to live it for a long time, you must have an affinity for mechanicals and you have to be able to work with other people.

Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it...

#276 6 years ago

Well this is the last deep root post we’ll see around here for a while. The tax dodge is in full effect!!

#346 6 years ago
Quoted from mrgone:

Am I the only one here that's reading between the lines that deeproot is using the law as a weapon and bullying/strong arming apple juice,zombie yeti, American pinball and anyone/everyone else they can. Also stealing Ben heck's bible adventures theme?
I can't be the only one here that sees this.

It seems the machine is just getting started up. Shall we gear up for a patent troll situation? Personally, I think this is a way to spend/pocket money so their insurance company doesn’t officially make a profit, but what do I know?

-2
#376 6 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

John has wanted to do a Copperfield for years. Don't be surprised if his Houdini is repurposed. Not hard to come up with another magic theme.

That’s what ToM is (er, was). Getting a Copperfield license may be a bit creepy now that he’s apparently been outed as a pedo rapist

#392 6 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

He's had unsubstantiated allegations against him. One of his accusers has been charged with making false claims against another man. http://www.cnn.com/2010/SHOWBIZ/01/26/copperfield.accuser/index.html

That’s a different person

-1
#393 6 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

Our only response to AP's post is that their statements are not true, they contradict their attorney's private statements, they contradict the contract they voluntarily drafted and entered into with John, and (as to the trademark) appear to contradict federal law. We are proceeding with John's original Houdini design but not the Houdini name; which is consistent with our prior statement.
-dP

Box of lights: 10k by Christmas!!

1 week later
#427 6 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No
You can say 'F this' and take nothing.. but keep your right to sue the guy and company with no assets and enough flip flops now to make it difficult to collect anything
You can sign up for a promise of discounts on deeproot games
... And at the end if you don't like the deeproot games, you can walk away... and depending on your 'tier' will dictate what relief you would have.
It's basically a tease for huge value on vaporware to lock in people waiving any claims against Popadeuce.
If deeproot fails to deliver... you get your money back (but they'll never let this happen)
If you don't like deeproot's games... if you were in for <5k.. you can get 50% of your money back AFTER the 'delivery date'. Those that put more money in the pot... you would be eligible for that money back (again after the delivery date).
The model is setup to encourage new deposits... with a promise of no risk.
But you know nothing about what games they are delivering... they've made zero games yet plan to be delivering 'multiple' games in less than 18months.
You also stand to be in the same situation you were with zidware... money or things owed to you, with potentially no way to collect.
They are selling promises in exchange for you signing away your claims against Popadeuce. The flip side is... 'something' even promises is still better than 'nothing'. But you get to ride the wave for another 12-18months

Is “delivery date” ever defined? They could just never deliver anything and keep half the money free and clear.

#438 6 years ago
Quoted from lpeters82:

I don't think they are asking for money until the "delivery day". My only fear at this point is that somehow signing this contract could eliminate any legal leverage current customers might have against John / Zidware. Obviously if deeproot comes through with their promises, games "designed and manufactured similar to the commonly known Williams/Bally/Zidware standards", that will likely not be an issue. Though, I'd question tossing Zidware into the list. I just want to know what happens if they fail to meet that "similar to" standard. Further, I would like to know what happens if deeproot fails, as in, they fail to produce the machines, nor have the capitol to refund deposits. I'm assuming this would make this new contract null and void, but I just don't want to see anyone loose there legal leverage.

Keep in mind the owner of deeproot IS AN ATTORNEY. There's a lot of language one can put into a contract that looks benign, but which wipes out any actual meaning. I've not read the thing in depth, but caveat empor.

#514 6 years ago

I do have to say incorporating AR makes a LOT of sense, especially when we look at all the screens being added to games. You might say that DI’s theater and the Ghostbusters EctoGoggles are AR; this is a great way to merge technology with pinball and really bring things forward a couple of years, without just jumping to VR completely; it’s just too fake and gross (see Sony’s pinkeye debacle)

#563 6 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

to be fair, I don't see video playing on the cutting.. For all we know only the luminescent is working. If that is in fact true, I'd be really curious what a 2 foot x 3 foot sheet of OLED costs. It's one thing to manufacture flexible phone displays, it's another to scale that up for giant TV's (or in this case, multimorphic display without compromising where mechs can get placed or how those mechs are controlled with wires).

The yield is incredibly low - lots of dead pixels still; it is still very costly to get a fully working rectangular display. Adding in these cuts and flexibility.. yikes

1 week later
#585 6 years ago
Quoted from EricHadley:

You can buy a 55” OLED TV for like 800 bucks

800x2 you mean. The 55" budget OLED made by LG is $1600, which is THE cheapest one ever. It was $1400 on black friday last year

1 week later
#644 6 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Thats cool. I am too actually. Not sure why Deeproot gets so much hate, but if they help get you guys paid back or a game, shouldn't we all be pulling for them?

Absolutely! But because of all the prior fiascos, people are going to be skeptical until games and/or checks start coming out. Right now it's all talk.. which is all that ever came from JPop. And Heighway & DP arent' much further along yet...

#651 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I'm hardly a Heighway cheerleader, my frustrations are pretty public, but there are over 100 Aliens shipped, and however many Full Throttles, maybe less than that, but still a real game you could actually play. The company is struggling, their communication sucks, they're constantly digging out of the hole Andrew left them, and I'm not blaming anyone for being frustrated with them too. But games have shipped, the code is real (that's a big one), I don't think they belong next to vaporware.

It's not that I want anyone to get boned, I have friends who lost money with Jpop. But I have a tough love approach to it personally. People took a risk, they got conned, and they lost their money. It sucks. For most people it wasn't a huge sum, but legit thousands. I just don't really think the lesson should be "don't worry, someone will bail you out" and then Jpop gets to have a job again. He should never get to work in the industry again, instead of being enabled. That's my perspective at least.
I'm not losing sleep over it, and if someone is crazy enough to try and take on his debt and make his customers whole I can't be mad about that part. I hope it turns out well.

Can’t argue with any of that .

#684 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Trusting Jpop was stupid in hindsight
I own it and cut my pmts off early on
I fully paid for TBL though because you bought in that expo Aurich with those Dutch dipshits
Thank the lord Philgate happened shortly thereafter
We all should own our stupid mistakes. I have no problem with it.
As for Alien, only have $1500 into that shitshow
Fast forward, nobody is getting Fed on pre pay model anymore. So that’s a good thing
Live and learn

wait, what was Philgate?

#696 6 years ago

Not sure what’s scarier - JPop with a light saber (cattle prod?!?) or the height of his pants.

#712 6 years ago

That is damn hilarious

#729 6 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Dude every time I read your posts I think, “Is this a bot or a genius?”

All bad writers are in love with the epic.

1 month later
#796 5 years ago

Come on, guys.. Deeproot was founded by an attorney. At least half of you have to be smart enough to know that the majority will be legally and definitively screwed by complete means of technicality roulette - minus a few lucky handful to make the whole thing look legit.

#834 5 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Supposed to see 5 different model games at Texas Pinball Festival 2019 and all available for purchase with no wait time. That's my recollection and I would feel better if Robert or someone can confirm or correct me.

FIVE?

1 month later
#875 5 years ago

oh man what the heck now?!

#919 5 years ago
Quoted from daudioguy:

panzerfreak - I will only address the audio work: DR is 'paying the cost to be the boss' in this regard. It is my intention for DR machines to have my best work and they have already hired another full-time audio guy. Let's see....how many other pinball companies have one full-time audio guy? That would be none. So DR is addressing what it takes to have a great audio package associated with each DR title. There are also other exciting audio related developments that NDA and digression prevent me from revealing. Let's just say that they are very cool.
The time between now and March will be hard for all of us. For DR it will be hard work to get to the reveal with Robert's vision intact and for the community it will be hard to wait.
I couldn't do anything without a substantial amount of optimism and I have high hopes for DR.
ddt

This is really great to hear - audio is SIGNIFICANTLY deficient in all machines; we really have to go above and beyond to improve on things that are really basic at this point. AP's Houdini has a next-step-up audio component, with a dedicated serious amp, and the 6-speaker array, but the sound package is themed as to sound "old-timey" and doesn't show off the bombastics the sound system is able to produce. Also, no woofer. Stern's Iron Maiden should have an extreme, amazing aound system (I think the LE has something nicer than the Premiums) but the sound on that game is actually pretty poor, considering. This is definitely a positive development.

#978 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

A resin playfield is a big innovation as it won't dimple and it lends itself to multiple surface types. They don't need to worry about whether 8 ply or 12 ply walnut is good enough and whether their source for blanks is consistent. A flat playfield could include an area with raised mounds and craters like the moon's surface.
Other possible design elements - use air to move the ball via suctioning instead of a vertical mounted magnet. I'd like to see magnets deployed in place of all coils, vuks, flippers and slingshots. Doing that and swapping arm and rollover switches with optos would kill their need for the common playfield parts used today. Ok maybe keep the flippers,but everything else has got to go. Poured material is probably easier to embed and attach wire forms and ramps to also. I hope they add a loop ramp and corkscrew ramp to their standard repertoire and that they raise playfield glass height to allow balls to be launched from end of pf to the other. Could we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches? I'm serious, can we see a catapult launch the ball 50 inches and a magnet grab it, please?
All of these would combine to simplify DR's manufacturing process and Operators would see lower operating cost, minimum maintenance and games that work. But innovation costs more money than the traditional way to do things until you implement in volume. For that reason DR won't be producing many $3.5k games. But if their pins are fun and worth the cost, they can meet their objectives and maybe they will succeed. What other innovations could DR's pinball future hold?

I’m curious about the weight factor when using resin or an epoxy composite - I have some guitars made from a similar substance and they are HEEEEEAVY!! when we have 350 pound games coming and going from JJP, an additional heavy play field is a bit of a concern. One thing though, it definitely will never dimple or crack from play.

2 weeks later
#1043 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Citations please, or I call bullshit.
Those batteries have a massive lifecycle - they're expected to be used for decades after they're taken out of the car for other uses.

I refer to the highly liberal-leaning Forbes magazine, which says the footprint of manufacturing the car (slightly more than the manufacture of a traditional petroleum engine) is dramatically and several-orders-of-magnitude outweighed by the CO2 savings of not using gas to power the car over its lifetime.

-1
#1046 5 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

Oh, that rag. Their conclusions are debunked here, I assume you will trust Popular Mechanics as a fair source:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a27039/tesla-battery-emissions-study-fake-news/
Back to the topic of deeproot, I for one hope they do great stuff and shake the industry up.
The only hard limit I can think of is the software. Throwing people at the software side of the problem will just make it take longer.
Does anyone know if they're using something like P-ROC or developing their own system from scratch? AP is using P-ROC, aren't they?

Awesome link; that supports the Forbes article
Perfectly!

Fully agree on the software front. Yes, AP is using P-roc. Makes total sense to me to move to a common platform - my only tiny complaint about P-ROC is the boot time. Otherwise it is pretty easy to develop against and very lightweight which is awesome!

#1054 5 years ago
Quoted from bob_e:

JPOP customers or Victims ???

Same thing, isn’t it?

#1057 5 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

If nothing else, this could end up being one big tax write off for deeproot.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

#1088 5 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Reminds me of the underwear gnome episode of South Park...

Shamelessly stolen from Linux computer forums of the 90s

#1093 5 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

I thought it was trying to provoke.
Heighway, Kevin Kulek, Jpop all took money from people and failed to deliver games. Most knew exactly what they were doing and still continued along. Nuff said.

I’m inferring that you are saying they knew exactly what they were doing in taking people’s money... not in delivering games, because they sure as hell didn’t know what they were doing in terms of getting games delivered...

#1095 5 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

Yes, that is correct. None of those three should ever be able to be associated with pinball again.

No argument here

#1140 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

No totally different design. If DP wants to develop a magic themed pin, there is room for another, but market saturation might bite them in the ass. But when Josh was building Houdini he had to get a license so I can't see DR being able to pick the same license. Rethemed as David Copperfield or a David Blaine though, might breathe some fresh air into their design. Particularly challenging to building another Houdini pin are that his best known tricks are already captured by AP and the dialog and screens they provide are historically accurate and educational. Just doesn't make any sense to proceed on another Houdini. :pullingarabbitoutofmyhat:

Lance Burton!

#1146 5 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Well we've guessed 3 of the top 5 greatest magician already. Before you look, do you know he other two licenses?

I absolutely adore Penn & Teller, but even they would admit there are better magicians. Well known magicians? They are the top. Greatest magicians? Houdini, Copperfield, burton, Ricky Jay, Dai Vernon

#1147 5 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

IMO it wasn't *just* the fact that it was a broken, totally unworkable diorama ... it looked hideous.
Take a look at a picture of it. Cabinet and translite were fine (though I prefer the production model's seemless translite / screen integration). But, no offence to the artist - he was working to do what JPop wanted - the playfield and plastics looked awful.
Albeit I think Magic Girl looks like a complete dog's dinner. Others seem to disagree.

It looks fine.. but dated. It looks like it would have been a fantastic partner to TOTAN or TOM. Which obviously makes sense. But AP Houdini looks like it was made this year... much more restrained and dare I say classier

1 month later
#1419 5 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

Meh, this guy seems like another pied piper to me.
[quoted image]

funny, in back-to-back posts you first complain about another pinsider's post turning the thread into a "general pinball thread" when it actually has some real information about the actual facility itself - and you follow it up with a complete troll know-it-all-post. Hey, is there an achievement for that?!

#1423 5 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

No I’m actually interested in icemans post you misunderstood me. I’m annoyed at all the people not talking about deeproot in the deeproot thread.

Aah, copy that. Sorry for the misunderstanding!

4 weeks later
#1461 5 years ago
Quoted from pin2d:

After we had a chance to do a tour at deeproot last week, a deeproot article will be posted tomorrow morning!
It'll be one of the most interesting articles to ever appear on TWIP.
Obligatory teaser! We'll cover:
The Tour at deeproot
Is it "Pinball"?
The Break Room
deeproot Departments and Processes
- The Guts
- Displays/Animations/Rules/Storyboarding
- Playfield Designers
- Programming and Product Development
- Manufacturing
The Oval Room
Check it out tomorrow!

Uh oh... >> Is it "Pinball"?

#1464 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Lol. When were those 3 words used to describe any other pinball startup? Even the P3 qualifies as "pinball", no one contests that. I'm intrigued, but not sure in what sense.

Perhaps they are doing very nice VP tables. Better have multi-level transparent displays like I’ve been talking about

#1468 5 years ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

That's been my guess for months, based on their huge development team (in Utah?) and hardly any manufacturing discussion. And all this talk of "revolutionizing" pinball technology. And now Stern is going Oculus Rift?
I hope I'm wrong.

Me too. But luckily there’s JJP still. And AP. I’m sure Stern will continue to make real pinball

#1486 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Nope...it's Deadly Spawn...
[quoted image]

AWESOME!!!!!!! Man that should happen.

#1514 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I guess the slot machine guys are from another planet then?

(Replying to rubberducks) Yes we buy them for $280 for 25” ones. Costs an arm and a leg?

#1515 5 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Discussion has previously been about replacing or augmenting pf glass with it.
A 1.5" screen operating a 'hologram' isn't innovative or in any way game changing.
It's not really feasible or desirable to do much more than that in pinball.

Not sure If you are replying to me, but IMO we need to think more creatively. 2 (or ideally 3) levels of transparent screens will allow to “float” things above a playfield, yes. But what if the screen IS the playfield? You can create depth with a flat layer at bottom, a middle layer for plastics and lane guides, and a top layer for big toys, mechs, and ramps. There, 3D without goggles because it actually IS in 3 dimensions. 3D printer slicer software does this x 10,000 right now.

#1520 5 years ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Thinking creatively won't do anything. Pinball companies don't have R&amp;D budgets that run into the billions.
Per prior posts, neither current transparent LCDs nor OLEDs have fantastic light transmissions properties. Layering them would make it worse. Pixel responsiveness is bad on the LCDs. Low life time, expense and non-availability in large sizes of OLEDs rules them out.
Also, can you imagine how bad it'd be if you developed a fault with or suffered damage to one of the layers?
Deeproot (or anyone else) are right to look for savings and efficiencies where ever they can to reduce build costs and complication, but chasing unicorns is extremely unwise.

I hear ya, but I'm not sure where you're getting costs from. We buy panels of roughly the same size as a pin for about $1K each. So that's a cost per machine of $3,000 or so. Even if the final MSRP is 8K you're still in a good spot.

here's an example of an existing game that uses what I'm talking about. I don't know what this game is exactly, but the screen can be *entirely* full-color (which you don't really see in this video too well), or transparent. There's a little haze where it's not quite as clear as a window, and yes the colors aren't super bright (backlighting or angled sidelighting would help w/ this) :

#1522 5 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

That is a strawman logical fallacy. No one objects specifically to surface mount, they object to being forced to spend $350 for a new board instead of 30 cents for the failed component. If surface mount becomes as easy or cheap to repair as through hole is now customer objection will disappear.

With all due respect to Ben, who certainly does know what he is talking about; pinball machines do not need to be squeezed into tiny enclosures that fit in one’s pocket. But I doubt the surface mount thing is about selling $350 replacement boards - it’s probably just cheaper to have them made in the first place.

#1575 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Just sayin'!...........
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Joe Dante is a damn genius

#1581 5 years ago

Solar babies!!

#1610 5 years ago
Quoted from fishbone:

Could we stop the movie nostalgia marathon and return to talking about Deeproot?
Pretty please?
Thank you.

Sure! What deeproot news do you have?

1 month later
#1963 5 years ago
Quoted from aeneas:

Just searched on linkedin for deeproot tech and I count about 25 people stating they work there;. and that's only including Barry Oursler as game designer, JPop and others previously announced are not in that list. So I think his statement won't be far from the truth..
Some of the profiles (3D animators, story writer) give me the impression they're more like a software/games company than a pinball manufacturer so I'm really curious to what they will release.

Really seems like a sort of VR or virtual something is involved here, I think you are right

#1965 5 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Maybe it will end up being a multi-pronged approach. Maybe they will release a physical machine along with a digital machine (like Pinball FX3) at the same time...hit both markets.

Man, imagine a new machine released both physically and digitally at the same time. How would that do in the market? I imagine it might be of short-term interest, but for me it's back to the same thing - video game pinball vs real pinball? No brainer.

I do think there's a lot of creative opportunity for building using transparent LCD displays and dynamic digital interfaces (like P3 I guess), but man is it a lot of work. And I can say for *sure* that I really prefer the interactive, physical toys and mechs on the playfield to just another screen.

#1969 5 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Would it? they haven't taken any consumer money, and they're paying salaries of pinball people in the meantime. If they fail and fold up before taking money OUT of the hobby, I'm not sure it makes any difference at all.

at the very minimum, it's providing a way for some of the masters to stay paid from, and engaged by pinball. That in and of itself is pretty awesome, and will pay off in some way eventually, even if it's only one or two of them (please not JPOP) that emerge with a new game or idea. I recently listened to the Chris Granner interview on the Head2Head Podcast, and he talks about working for Zynga and not having worked on pinball for 10 or 15 years, which is very sad. He's got to go where the work is!

#2016 5 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

I've been curious if fiberglass reinforced plywood would be a way to make playfields much more durable. This material is what is commonly used in trailers and box trucks for the transportstion industry. There is a thin layer of fiberglass laminated to a plywood substrate. The scoops would still wear, but I would think with the traditional screen printing and a clear coat, this stuff would be extremely durable over traditional wood over the rest of the playfield.

That stuff is heavy as hell, isn’t it? There’s got to be a balance there. If it costs double to ship a game and you need 4 people to move it, it may be a challenge

#2029 5 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

My experience is it is the same as regular plywood...it just has a 1/32" or so skin of smooth fiberglass laminated to the top. My current employer actually has a division that makes this product...I should dig into it more and see what specs I can find on it.

Gotcha - I may be mixing it up with injected plywood then; sort of like pressure treated wood, although epoxy is pulled into wood pores using osmosis (i think...) super heavy stuff.

#2030 5 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Something one must keep in mind with a transparent LCD is that is can only block light, not create it. You'd have to make the inside cabinet very bright to act as a backlight.

This is obviously not an issue - have you seen PinStadium?!? seriously - IMO this could be used over say half the PF, with traditional glass still over it; you could change the game layout or hide the ball, with just a small number of lanes (or pins!) to trap the ball in concert with animations on the trans LCD

#2032 5 years ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

Good point, but as an already-glasses wearer, I actively avoid 3D movies for that exact reason. Wearing glasses over my glasses has always been a big pain in the butt. They never quite fit right, and it’s super clunky.
3D was cool at Disney, but for movies, at least for me, it becomes uncomfortable to the point where it ends up removing me from the experience.

IMO Dialed In has a very interesting example - not 3D - but a unique integration of video with the Quantum Theater. Ghostbusters too? I think?

#2037 5 years ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

3D wasn't even part of the 4K Blu-Ray spec. It's dead.

3D isn't possible yet in 4k consumer players; it'll be back

#2040 5 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

3D isn't possible yet in 4k consumer players; it'll be back

Quoted from Sinestro:

It's not a matter of possibility....it was left out on purpose.

Not what I meant - it’s not in the UHD spec, but it will be back in some format. UHD supports HDR, the only-slightly-less-gut-wrenching-than-motion-smoothing feature, which is this cycle’s 3D. 3D will be back eventually in some future format

#2047 5 years ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

Agreed 100% HDR and "True/Smooth Motion" are two completely separate things. HDR allows more colors on video to better capture all of the 35mm frame's glory.
True Motion is shit with a capital S.

see Ben's post

1 week later
#2228 5 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Magic Girl can not possibly be reviewed, categorized, critiqued, or other wise judged as a “good” game until it is finished and all mechs INSTALLED, programmed, and working, code is finished, and game is “complete”. Until then it is a flashy box of lights with some ZY artwork on it. That IP and $5 will get you a vinte latte at Starbucks, not much else.
I get excited about a pinball company when they bring a machine to the table and I can play it, like API, CGC, and most of the others trying to break into the market. I personally think deeproot shot their wad by making big noises and promises and missing their date for a big reveal at TPF. With the ammo in their quiver, they should have kept quiet, built their 5 machines, and then just showed up at the next biggest show when they were ready... drop 3 or 4 game titles onto the floor of the show, and put up pictures of them making 15 sample games of each title. Then say we are open for business, here are the first offerings from our company, we are taking orders for all of them, production starts yesterday, we have 5 machines of each title ready to ship today.
That would have blown us all out of the water, would have alleviated any JPop bad publicity, and then they could eventually offer to make people whole on zidware by giving a 50% discount on enough titles to make them whole... no money down to order.
But I am not a marketing genius... and what do I know? Not my circus, not my monkeys. And I am sure this approach has a billion flaws or cracks someone will immediately point out.

Did Magic Girl actually have *missing* mechs? I know it had a shot or two that was not possible to make - blocked or something - and I know about the levitating ball failure. But were there other mechs missing? Wow.

#2230 5 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Not sure how many mechs or just the levitating ball one (the original discription after getting the machine was dangling wires and plug, and missing mech?), but can we agree not complete by any stretch of the imagination? That was my real point there.

That’s kinda what I thought - that sounded like new info. No argument it was an incomplete box of lights

1 month later
#2306 5 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I'm pretty psyched about this game.
SHould the full-size Flux Capacitor go in the backglass? Or a smaller one on the playfield?
I'm guessing Biff sits this one out and all the callout money goes to Chris Lloyd, which is fine with me. he rules.

Biff may be up for it! Tom F Wilson has warmed up to Biff in the last couple years (finally!) he got enough going on outside BTTF he didn’t feel as pigeonholed

#2326 5 years ago
Quoted from deeprootmatt:

So i want to take a minute here to give my own personal account and experience working with Jpop. I figure a sort of third party opinion from someone who has been working closely with him over the last 1.5 years might be of interest. Again, this is my own personal opinion.
I will also preface this message with this: I get it. He screwed up. A lot of people here are upset. And i completely understand that. I will continue to stay out of that as much as i can and focus on what I can do: doing my part in bringing about success for deeproot.
John has been, and continues to be a great friend. He is always able to provide valuable insight into whatever aspect I am working on. The amazing conversations we have had are numerous, and his passion for pinball is absolutely contagious. I have now been brought into the pinball world i never knew existed.. and its amazing! I have learned more over the last 1.5 years than I could have ever imagined and John has had a big part in that. So I wanted to take this moment to share this with you guys, and take it as you will.
Also, I hate to leave out the other amazing people I get to work with as John is just one of MANY people at deeproot. All of us here are REALLY excited for what is to come, and it is coming!

Cool, glad JPop is a great office guy. Soo... are you guys going to you know.. make a pinball machine eventually?

#2337 5 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

He has beyond a boss, he has a boss who's dumping a shit ton of his money in this company, and a bunch from investors. I guarantee there are daily morning status update meetings going on over there.

Funny, since you mentioned investors- I’ve been watching that show Ozark and it occurred to me that they should add a pinball machine company to their portfolio on season 3... after the Heighway debacle, seems like a perfect fit!

#2341 5 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

I definitely get the anger and hate, I personally lost a lot to the whole ordeal.
However, I don't think JPop should continue to be chastised so much. He definitely screwed up, and obviously has issues, but he's never thrown his hands up and said fuck it. He's continued to look for some kind of solution to get what he's promised done. He could have very easily just done what SkitB, Heighway, VonnieD, and Dutch have done and just walked away. He continued to try to get the games built though, to the point of getting two different, new pinball manufacturers involved.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

I may be talking out of school here, but didn’t Heighway, SkitB, DutchP all face lawsuits which kinda forced their hand ?

#2343 5 years ago
Quoted from Borygard:

So did JPop.
--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
314-766-4587

Aaah, gotcha. Yikes

#2366 5 years ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

Not to their characters, but they own the rights to their likeness.

Correct. You can license a character, but unless you also license the actor's face, it needs to look like someone else. Funny though this doesn't work like that in voiceover acting. You can copy
Someone's voice all day long and you don't owe them a dime. (Which, to be clear, is a good thing)

#2372 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Not entirely true. A radio commercial was run here with an Arnold impersonator. They had to remove it.

Arnold is notoriously protective of his voice - and he has the money to make problems for whomever is mimicking him. The legal part is not the voice itself, but the idea that Arnold himself may have been misconstrued as endorsing the product is what was legally defendable.

Also, his voice and accent taken together is so distinctive that it would be easier to make the case that people would be confused it was actually him, vs say Don LaFontaine (“in a world...”), who was and still is constantly mimicked when he was alive

#2373 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Usually For parody with limits... but not to simply copy and infer endorsement. In most areas their voice is still covered by right of publicity and copyright.

It is exclusively that endorsement may be misconstrued. Voice is not protected by trademark or likeness rights at all. I’ve done tons of soundalike ads and other gigs that bear no risk. Half of voice acting is copying people’s voices in the first place!

4 weeks later
#2440 5 years ago
Quoted from bladerunner:

Ever tried Popeye? It is not very well liked and one of the reasons is its "Eco" theme.

What a stupid reason not to like a game. How does it shoot?

#2443 5 years ago
Quoted from bladerunner:

My wide body ranking in descending order: TZ, JD, Popeye, DM, RS, Rosanne Barr.

Damn, Popeye is at least on top of Demo Man!

#2467 5 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Not necessarily agreeing with you with the rest but yes, with an expected launch this week that had to be blown off and not having even an estimate for the new launch, there's whole lot of expenses and no income for a whole while longer. - I hope they can shoulder that.

You guys aren’t really still thinking this is a real company are you ?

#2471 5 years ago

Lol just had a round of Dangerfield jokes at work. I hope this isn’t a mess, I want to believe ...

#2473 5 years ago
Quoted from insx:

"I couldn't care less" means that I do not care at all. Only (some) Americans do not understand this.

While I agree with this from a logical perspective, idioms simply don’t seem to require logic. Less logical would be to ignore the (clearly understood) intent of the phrase.

#2496 5 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Except Steve Bowden gave up his teaching career to move to texas and go work for DR. This is the part that worries me. People like to think "What's the harm in Andrew Heighway/JPOP/etc blowing money", but there's always collateral damage. AppleJuice not getting paid for coding work. The game designer for Heighway who was unpaid and basically made broke. There's always collateral damage when you look behind the big personalities. When DR fails, it will mess over a lot of people, like the investors in Robert's funds, which will then make it harder for pinball manufacturers in the future to raise capital.
I almost immediately thought this was a fraud because THEY ARE SPONSORING EVENTS. A company with zero cash flow and nothing but expenses is sponsoring Pinburgh and otherwise spending money on shit they shouldn't. Reminded me of Dutch Pinball throwing a boozy party with hired models. Pinball is a low margin item, hand manufactured in the USA where labor is notoriously expensive. IMHO If you want to be successful as a pinball manufacturer you need to count every penny to be profitable, especially in the early stages where you have to outlay large expenses (equipment, leases, employees, 1 year lead time on product development) without selling anything just yet. Sponsoring events to 'build brand awareness' is the kind of marketing bullshit people think you need, but let's face it: you can post on pinside you're making a game and pinside will shower you with attention until the games come out.
Oh, and then don't even get me started on taking on JPOP's liabilities and former customers. How that would ever be a profitable move is beyond me.

Remember, the founder’s main business is allegedly in selling questionable insurance products, I am sure he knows exactly what he’s doing. It just may not be related to pinball

#2498 5 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Sure, you are right, there will be collateral damage, but any of these pinball veterans (whether they have worked in pinball before, or have been a part of and followed the pinball community for the last 5 years or so) should know to do their homework on a new pinball startup. I feel for the likes of AppleJuice and the Heighway guy, but we know those stories now, and anyone accepting a job with a pinball startup have lessons they should have learned. There is a risk involved with taking employment with any startup, regardless of industry. Again, I am not a cheerleader for deeproot. They have a lot to prove and could very well fail just like the many other recent pinball startups. But at least they are not scamming consumers out of their money like pretty much every other recent startup that failed.

Here’s to hoping they follow through! It’s hard without anything to look at whatsoever. Even JPop had art by this time ..

#2509 5 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Jpop had art because he ripped off the real artist. Zombie Yeti.

Oh damn. That story just keeps getting worse and worse..

#2511 5 years ago
Quoted from wolftownjeff:

Will Deeproot be at TPF?
Hoping to get Barry Oursler's autograph?

No, they won't. It's been covered many pages back - they bailed what seems like several months ago

#2521 5 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

They opted to delay the unveil of games not sure that means the will not Be there as a show sponsor. Personally looking forward to whatever/whenever they release. Should be interesting.

True, true - I was referring to them being there as a vendor

#2545 4 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

So you Texas Pinballers come across this?
Interesting is an understatement.[quoted image]

It was posted in another thread, but.. yeah. Big statement. Hopefully it’s not John P.’s own truck.. LOL

2 weeks later
#2594 4 years ago
Quoted from amkoepfer:

I personally wouldnt want to swap playfields, id want a cab for each. Possibly location play, but how many operators would want to do conversions

I get that this is potentially a great idea - but as Levi pointed out, who cares? If you have the space to store extra playfields, which are 1/3 the size of the whole machine, why wouldn’t you just leave them up and playable? It IS a good idea for ops IMO, except now you have these unprotected playfields that have to be carefully stored.

If the glass is somehow a transparent LCD
Screen that changes how the playfield and mechs look, then I’d be more on board. Still skeptical. But maybe this is just an idea they are sitting on; it may never materialise

#2645 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Keep in mind a transparent LCD glass can only darken things it can't add light. Unless it's OLED but that would be unaffordable at this time.
Also you'd have to use a camera to track the players head and eyes to render the correct perspective.

I don’t understand why this is a problem. Arcade redemption games use them just fine, and they are backlit, which would be trivial in a pinball cabinet

2 weeks later
#2983 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

His games suck ass.
The best one he ever made he didn't even finish (World Cup Soccer - thanks to whomever at Williams took that project over).
There's never been a single more overrated "classic" pinball designer than Jpop. I do not and never will understand the cult.

Joe Balcer, methinks?

#3037 4 years ago
Quoted from deeproot:

I can help arrange that!
—Robert, dT

Hoo boy, seems risky

#3131 4 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Could we please keep this thread on topic? This thread should be about deeproot and any associated updates, reveals, etc. This thread has in large part turned into a thread about new technology that could be incorporated into pinball. I feel there is plenty to discuss regarding new pinball technology to warrant its own thread. Just my thoughts and very much looking forward to what deeproot has to offer...best of luck to them...thanks!

These posts are at least keeping the thread up on the site - it's not like there's a lot of DR news to discuss!

2 weeks later
#3404 4 years ago
Quoted from halflip87:

Honestly guys, every time I visit this thread I keep scrolling until I see the deeproot logo and if I don't, I just back out. Sooooo much fluff and no substance. Continue your discussion but lord, I can't wait for an official announcement.
-Doug

Cool story, bro!

#3405 4 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

We can bet with the payment to charity. I've not been checking this thread lately as I'm not surprised by the missed deadlines.

Super class response. Hank is good people

2 weeks later
#3538 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

You say you walk away from people "insulting" JJP.
Next thing is you "insult" JJP as a company that doesn't get their act together.
I think that's funny (and a good representation of pinsiders double standards while with that not meaning to offend you).

Quoted from DS_Nadine:

You say you walk away from people "insulting" JJP.
Next thing is you "insult" JJP as a company that doesn't get their act together.
I think that's funny (and a good representation of pinsiders double standards while with that not meaning to offend you).

He was being sarcastic, throwing deeproot’s words back at them. His statement was intended as supportive of JJP. He probably should have put quotation marks around the offending phrase.

#3556 4 years ago
Quoted from Matthew2000tx:

I’m fairly new to pinball and I live about 3 miles away from DeepRoot here in San Antonio. I have to say as a San Antonioian I hope DeepRoot Pinball becomes a viable pinball company. I too have some concerns about the history of Jpop and their not meeting their deadline at the Texas Pinball Festival. The more sinister side of me is saying that DeepRoot pinball is just a way for an investment firm to show a loss on a pet project for tax reasons. Hire Jpop to claim more losses.
Anyways, I hope my sinister side is incorrect.
On the local pinball front here it has been nice to play with some of the top pinball players now employed by DR during league play and tournaments.
We see DeepRoot employees at the local pinball spots occasionally.
It’s nice that the top players are here in San Antonio even though I may never again have a chance of setting a high score on a machine! Lol.
As a new to pinball person my wife and I are hopefully bringing home our first machine once it’s shopped by a local tech.
We will then be in the market for our second machine of which we have already set aside some money for. I think it would be great if DeepRoot instead or in addition to being so innovative with new technologies would also be innovative on their prices and set the bar for new pin ownership within the reach of more people. Pinball is rising like a Phoenix again so why not offer a lower cost option to the market in addition to the innovative engineering.
Anyways that is my 2 cents for what it’s worth.

IMO: Winner, winner, chicken dinner. I genuinely hope I am wrong.

2 weeks later
#3718 4 years ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

thyme weights four know juan.

LOL

#3749 4 years ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

How does that play into tax deductions?

Deep root isn’t the only company the owner is involved with, and that would appear on his taxes

#3785 4 years ago

Well, there goes the thread count!

#3834 4 years ago
Quoted from riverinapinball:

The art is good, but for pinheads it needs to be amazing!

Appears to be true - just read through all the complaining in the Oktoberfest thread!

1 week later
11
#3921 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

You really just can't help yourself can you?
How about this one: a rolling stone gathers no moss.

I’ll play: those who live in glass houses should not throw stones

#3922 4 years ago

Here’s another:

“It's no use locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. “

Bonus proverb: “Laugh and the world laughs with you; weep and you weep alone.”

(I actually hate that one, lol! That guy must have had no friends)

#4061 4 years ago
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:

I have uncrated every game since Pinbot. I will say Stern still is the champs at packing a game into a box. I have seen one NIB roll off of a semi truck at a freight terminal. Hit the ground. Roll. Game was still perfect. JJP seem to pack really well too. Spooky could use some work in this area. Multimorphic has improved a lot from the start when I got the first unit until now. Heighway was not good at packing. Dutch was not great either. Funny but I've never unboxed a CGC, you would have to ask one of our techs.
I remember a few issues with 90s games coming out of the box, nothing major. I've probably opened over 100 Williams games. Plus a lot of the populated fields for early ss held up well also.
What is your experience Llyod?

AP’s packing has them all beat. Take off the top, game slides out on 2 skids with handles so you can pull everything by hand. Ridiculously simple. Stand on end, cut 2 heavy duty ties, legs, power, balls, you’re playing a game.

#4068 4 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

No, I believe he actually meant it. If it would have been you or I, I would think he was joking, but since Ben has a history with Jpoop, it was a real threat.

And apparently it worked. I haven’t seen Ben posting too much around these parts recently. Too bad

3 weeks later
#4266 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

If he/ they do the next post is:
"Oh, they have nothing to show but some pretty pictures to lure us into spending money!!!"
And the next:
"But the didn't take any preorder money!"
Next:
"I h8 them and will never buy anything of them because Jpoop is an idiot!"
Next:
"But they try to make us whole!"
Next:
"You should/ shouldn't have participated in the class action lawsuit!"
Next:
"Let's talk about interpunctuation!"
...
What I want to say is:
Whatever Robert does or don't he can only fail until the games are ready.
So best stick to the announcement that was made and we get to see somethin until November and (ideally) hold up with the original goal that games will be ready to ship within 2 weeks after announcement.

That pretty much sums up this thread! We should sticky it so people don’t have to read the whole thing. You forgot one step though, where Robert comes out of hiding and accuses someone of practicing law without a degree!

#4269 4 years ago

LOL!

#4309 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Friend of mine received his goodwill money from Deeproot today. He’s not on Pinside so figure I’d share his news.

Interesting. There are a LOT of people on pinside who signed up, so they should be receiving similar payoffs soon

#4314 4 years ago
Quoted from mrbillishere:

And how exactly do you know this to be a fact?
For instance, I don't recall seeing a poll along the lines of, 'Are you part of the Goodwill claimants?'

I don’t - I shouldn’t have stated it as if it was fact. There’s been a lot of discussion on the site - I suppose I should have said “there seems to be a lot of people on the site...” what I was trying to get at was that I would expect to see others mentioning this soon.

#4357 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

He bailed jpop out by making takers agree to absolve jpop and zidware of their claims.
How do you get jpop to work for you and behave how you want? You bail him out. The agreement frees up the zidware assets to be freed up to be used (transfered, etc) without future concerns,

And the question certainly remains... “why???”

#4364 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Robert clearly thinks JPOP is some mastermind that just needs the right environment to produce... so he built that.

speechless.

2 weeks later
#4605 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

My dream theme is Sledge Hammer!, and I hope that's one of the second games you have to choose from.

I loved this show, and I know it may have started as a joke that this should be a theme, but DAMN I am on board!

4 weeks later
#4956 4 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Why did Deeproot ( Robert ) go inactive a month ago?

Wait, what? Omg

#4959 4 years ago
Quoted from Fulltilt:

The Popadiuk thread topped 486 pgs. This one's got a ways to go...
And Popadiuk didn't make a comment in that thread.

The gauntlet thrown..

#5001 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

It would have to be some type of ceramic. The cost of using something like pyrocarbon over wood would be off the charts...

And that seems so strange. Gerry is one of the nicest people in the industry. I’ve never met anyone that had an issue with him.

Perhaps he's the only one who actually reached out? Totally agree, from all my (remote) dealings with him and his overwhelmingly positive presence on the site, he seems to be an extraordinarily nice fellow.

#5008 4 years ago

That's a legendary outtake. a comic in the 80s had a whole routine about this exact commercial shoot. His name is Maurice LaMarche - but you may know him as "The Brain" from Pinky & The Brain, or Egon from Real Ghostbusters

#5043 4 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

From what I remember JJP used to trash Stern at shows when he was soliciting preorder money. Call the games stripped down, etc.
A lot of sales type people talk a big game because that’s what they do. I don’t like it, but it’s practically a stereotype with how common it is.

That is, unfortunately, a very effective tactic. Just look at politics - that is 100% sales. And look how much trashing they do. The funny thing is, JJP has the games to back it up now. But they have also established their own niche with the boutique games

#5053 4 years ago
Quoted from MK6PIN:

Umm...no, just no. They do make games. "Boutique"? Not a chance. Good grief...

Good grief: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/boutique.html

3 weeks later
#5107 4 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

On a new podcast, Christopher Franchi talked about how Deeproot wanted to work with him. Franchi then didn't hear from them and eventually went back to Stern.
According to Franchi, this pissed off Mueller who told Chris that he'll never work for Deeproot.

In my business, if a place ghosts you, then it’s kinda on them that you don’t work for them. It must be a nightmare working for a bunch of babies who get all mad like that

#5119 4 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

I'd love to hear what's up at the company. Even more I'd like to /see/ what's up.
The last public statement from the company shut down all the negative comments, at least in this thread, for over a month.

Also may have been the lack of any news or progress in any way..

#5140 4 years ago
Quoted from okgrak:

Anyone else question the physics of this shot? The center of gravity must be way out towards the elevated playfield.[quoted image]

The Capcom playfields are also capable
Of this already. Not sure who owns the patent on that, but just because the drawing looks like it’s hovering in the air doesn’t mean there’s not some perspiring owner holding it up in real life!

#5141 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

deeproot investor talking to his tax advisor-
"So how much of this can I write off anyway?"

Nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. 100%

#5167 4 years ago
Quoted from Tomass:

Better check your math

don't think so. that is 5 days

#5184 4 years ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Previous judges do not agree with you. These corporations just find another court and another judge until one works out for them. I don't give a shit what the public thinks about red soled shoes. He wasn't the first one to do it and should have no right to patent a color. Madness.

Quoted from Tranquilize:

Previous judges do not agree with you. These corporations just find another court and another judge until one works out for them. I don't give a shit what the public thinks about red soled shoes. He wasn't the first one to do it and should have no right to patent a color. Madness.

It’s not “patenting a color”, this is a trademark case.
Think of it like protecting your company logo

#5188 4 years ago

The dialing back is pretty remarkable

#5225 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I'm guessing you are in the minority on this one.

Oof. Those are some long odds... chance of new game 1:10000. Chance of lots of smoke & mirrors? 100%

1 week later
#5300 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I would hope so after the millions invested into the animations.

The first game is going to be called “Tax Shelter”

#5322 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I feel they have to show “something” but yeah it’s a head scratcher as to why they don’t have one complete game yet

Especially since AP had TWO games almost complete by this same time frame

#5369 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I love watching you guys parse this stuff out like it’s the Rosetta Stone. Reminds me of the days when our greatest minds were tearing apart every letter of the latest “stern of the Union” to decipher if a ghostbusters code update was coming this week.

LOL you mean last month?!

#5680 4 years ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

Yes, my Full Throttle had that problem due to the lack of a stop at the end of the clear ramp. Unreliable rejects.
It looks like Deeproot does not have a stop (piece of rubber etc) at the end of their ramp either, making the loop a great idea.
My guess is that they preferred the clean tech look and adding a cut metal part which looks nice as well over a gob of rubber, right in sight.

I’m curious if that ball gate will hold up. The rubber softens the movement of the ball so it doesn’t eventually crack the ramp; without it (couldn’t they use translucent rubber/silicone?) it seems there would be a risk the ball would bend that metal stop with some awkward downward force. Depends on how thick it is, I guess.

On the flip side - Is there any risk of damaging the ball if it hits off center?

3 weeks later
-1
#6841 4 years ago
Quoted from Lamprey:

Those coils are way too powerful for LOTR. If you are happy then I guess that is all that matters. However, if you are interested, there is a better alternative, the APB coils:
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/shops/1065-apb-enterprises/01414-new-stern-pinball-medium-power-coil-lord-of-the-rings-gnr

Quoted from Fulltilt:

Thanks. That was a LONG time ago. I agree, they were powerful for sure but sure did make it great for hitting that ring shot! BAM!
After about 45 minutes on one of those LONG LOTR games, the Stern flipper coils seemed to just fade the hell away... Terry's fixed it.

FYI you will end up breaking some plastics eventually. Those coils work great - but they are definitely too strong for the game, and they change some of the shots. I can confirm from experience that the APB coils are perfectly balanced, and do not lose power after long games.

#6859 4 years ago

All part of the plan.

#6868 4 years ago

Companies need idea people, they need practical people, and they need money people.

jPop is an idea person - he’s the dreamer, the “visionary” if you choose to use that word. George Gomez is more of the practical side. He has to figure out HOW to make the idea person’s ideas into reality without bankrupting the company - or to tell him no. The money person (not sure who that is at Stern or DR) is not the person with the pocketbook, but the one whose job it is to manage the BOM and fixed costs, etc.

Al companies need these 3 distinct roles. It is exceedingly difficult to find a person who can do more than 1 of these roles (forget about all 3) and make a successful company work, because it requires mastery of multiple things, stepping outside yourself and getting out of the way of your own ego. Clearly JPop is not a money guy or a practical guy. GG definitely has great ideas too but his calling seems to be in the practical of getting the games out the door.

#6879 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

jPop is an idea person - he’s the dreamer (con man), the “visionary” (thief)

HAHA you say potato... LOL

2 weeks later
#6955 4 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

How can they release RAZA when they do not own the IP?

Who owns it? There certainly could be a licensing deal that would cover it. Game mechs would presumably be redesigned, lest they run afoul of patents (assuming said patents were even applied for)

#6974 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’m really not sure what lesson you desperately want to think Stern is going to learn by watching deep root.
They already figured out that hiring Jpop to run your design department is a bad idea. What other lessons are there to be learned?

Don’t take on huge amounts of debt from a company whose ideas can’t be delivered upon?

#6990 4 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

So WOZ...one of the most overstuffed pins in the history of pinball machines...isn't "roided out" enough for you?
This is why Deep Root has painted themselves into a corner. The people most excited, and who fell the hardest for their 3 years of nonstop "we'll blow your mind!!!!" sales pitch; these folks can never be satisfied.
I personally would be frightened of what a "WOZ on steroids" would be. Four upper playfields? 6 flippers? 5 magnets? Three 27 inch monitors and an 8 speaker surround system?
The electric bill alone would be enough to put many of us on to government assistance.

Your comment assumes the company is intending to actually make pinball machines or money in the first place.

#7000 4 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Amazon still doesn't make a profit...so...I mean...

OOOOH yes they do

1 week later
#7072 4 years ago
Quoted from wolfemaaan:

Yeah same here. They missed the boat. If they had just released 1 pin in 2019 they would be on the map.
And while they don’t need to post or satisfy Pinside by any means, their communications are just horrible and complete garbage.
Meanwhile MOST of the reason Rick & Morty flew off the shelves is because of Scott. He continues to be the prime example of how to create new pinball in 2020. And he connects directly with his audience, something Deeproot has failed to do on any level.
I’ve yet to find anybody that has any issues with Scott & what he’s doing. Yet Deeproot is the complete opposite.
So yeah, if you don’t believe in the designer & company behind a pinball game, why the F would you ever be interested in buying one from them?
So yeah, the window for me being interested has long gone and past

They didn’t miss the boat. This was never about buyers, or enthusiasts, or even about getting JPOP fans whole. That was a wonderful side effect. But (if it’s all true) the recklessness of expenditure and the insane expectations make this all a fool’s errand. I don’t believe an attorney and insurance maven would expose himself so brazenly to such a money pit. This all smells foul. But what do I know? Maybe the other Deeproot-related ventures made a ton of money which needs to be Hollywood accounted for.

1 week later
#7258 4 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I messed around with the car door ones on a jjPotC, but the resolution was pretty crap due to the very small size of the slide and limited projection power so the image projected on the floor in front of the machine was what I would call unacceptable. HOWEVER a decent pico projector could put up very cool and inviting animated video on the floor in front of the machine. Would be very awesome if done right (aka, not Stern).

#SternBurn

#7284 4 years ago
Quoted from Brijam:

There are a lot of mysteries with this company, one of them is why they didn’t hire a proper marketing team with their big budgets.
I won’t be buying a RAZA. As an operator I don’t think it will draw quarters from pinheads unless there is something radical they held back from the prototype. And I don’t believe the theme will appeal to kids anywhere near as much as Jurassic Park, Stranger Things or Rick & Morty will. And I completely don’t understand the tiny DMD, given the investment in ex-Disney animators. I hope that was some kind of mistake.
I really hope to see the promised major innovations from them, but based on RAZA my expectations are low at this point.

VERY good question that To my knowledge has not been asked to date. Hm. You’d think a very stable genius like Robert would know that perception is reality, and marketing is key.

#7300 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

Yes and as always it's a pinside fuckup.
They got guys from the Disney Infinity layoff (wich was a video game) wich translated to "WHOA THEY GOT DISNEY ANIMATORS".
Well, of course they claim to have talented animators as well.

Several of the names on LinkedIn are former Pixar animators. From MOVIES. For example, one guy lists Toy Story 4. I think that counts as a “Disney Animator”.

The other workers seem to be folks who just live in the area. There are a LOT of people who also have a company listed in which they themselves are the CEO. In other words, they formed an LLC and they’re likely the only employee. This smells bad, as if they’ve got their hands in too many buckets, and Deeproot employment is INO. Could be nothing though. Could be something.

3 weeks later
#7367 4 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

I think people are tired of talk talk talk. Thankfully they are going to be showing (and shipping?) real games soon.

Man I totally forgot about this thread and company. Hopefully they show you know... something eventually. I saw they made 3 of the Zombie games ... so that’s nice. But it’s been what.. 3+ years ?

#7369 4 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

The prototype RAZA games at the Houston show in 2019 were the first games they have shown to the public. They have an full unveiling event the week of Texas Pinball Festival.
https://deeprootpinball.com

Yep. Although I believe the “full unveiling” language has been walked back a bit

2 weeks later
#7632 4 years ago

LOOOOOOOOOLLL. This is some great alternate reality stuff right here. I wish them all the best and hope they prove me wrong!!

#7687 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I did a bit of internet sleuthing and there seems to be like zero anything going on promoting this. This thread is as good as it gets, which is sad. This is the culmination of years and millions of dollars.
Deeprootstudios twitter (74 followers) last post was August 2019.
As much as Robert shits on Pinside, you remove this thread and there is NO ONE talking about the big launch, of a game we've already seen (that no one talks about).

Do they have facebook? Maybe they're just expecting TPF to be a huge release - make a video, post it online, get the buzz going. Or maybe this is all just a big scam.

#7699 4 years ago
Quoted from dc2010:

Sure seems like it, I requested access to the VIP event, only to get an email stating only for Media...
Hell ive been supportive , and I'm a local Tech,
Really disappointing Deeproot!

I wonder what media exactly they are expecting. This is certainly an unusual promotional approach

#7701 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

That media that does that media thingy. Like reporting and stuff? Outside of pinside?

Except, it isn't.

What I was getting at is that pinball is not covered by regular media in the US almost at all. Many of the press are (as someone noted) podcasts and the rare "pinball is back!" write-up in a local magaazine.

Not unusual? No invites to the grand reveal? No promotion of the event itself ? No anticipatory press release *whatsoever* ?

These guys must be geniuses, because this is not how we do this in my business AT. ALL.

1 week later
#7816 4 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

Robert finally sounds like he is starting to get it...no jabs at any other manufacturers or community members, and a little bit of humble pie for dessert. Hopefully he continues to follow this path from here on out.
"Launch won’t be the unrealistic daydreams I’ve had a million times since 2015, but it also won’t be disappointing either. Being humbled the hard way as you finally have to switch from tinkering to implementing has definitely given me some gray hairs and taken a few years off my life."

It absolutely does. He's moving the goalposts again, but at least this time with a much more conciliatory tone. Maybe by 2025 he'll really get it.

#7832 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

So here's something to speculate:
Will the Deeproot reveal and/ or TPF be cancelled due to Corona?
GOGOGO!!!

Well South by Southwest was! And although Austin is QUITE far away from Dallas, who knows...!

#7870 4 years ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

I'd go a Thunderbirds over a stern pro too!

... said no one, ever!

#7994 4 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

I noticed that the launch is postponed... -_-;
XX days left

ROFL

1 week later
#8040 3 years ago

I mean stick a fork in it. At this point only companies who have actually released you know.. anything at all.. are in the running

#8045 3 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Dennis has a very good Bullshit-o-meter......

Winner, winner chicken dinner.

#8100 3 years ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

People keep ignoring that Robert Is the investor. His words.
Alternatively, I guess, they are suggesting he is lying.
Either way the box will probably eventually flip open.
Maybe it's just a bit like Schrödingers cat .... lol

There are filing documents posted in this very thread which show it's not his money.

#8153 3 years ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Yep. It was a nice dream for a while though, wasn't it? And the timeline shows it wasn't related to the virus. Too bad for all the workers.

Wow, didn’t know quotes could be deleted like that. My assumption is there was a reason behind that. My theory: Robert is still reading Pinside. Dude: some actual info would be a lot better than threatening people. Sorry things aren’t going your way. This isn’t the way to get the community on your side.

#8158 3 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I’m confused by what your claiming? It was an April 1 prank not DR.

How’s that?

#8247 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Yes, it is always entertaining when a company spends millions of dollars, perhaps a lot of it not their own, over the course of a couple or maybe a few years, and has not sold anything or shown anything ready for sale within that time.

Pretty sure he was talking about the comedy gold that is this thread...

#8251 3 years ago

Paging Elbert Hubbard...

#8352 3 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I'm a very patient man.
So I'm hoping for the big Sledge Hammer! reveal by Christmas now.

That’s been talked about so much at this point, I am really psyched for it!

#8362 3 years ago

2 points (total 100% speculation on my part)

They will prob limit RAZA because it’s not profitable for them. They will give a lot of them away for free essentially, and unless the game takes off like a rocket, (which is a long shot), they can’t do enough volume to make up the difference.

I’m certain Mattel picked AP over DR because they have delivered games. Mattel is too big to take a risk and be helping little startups get off the ground

#8371 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

That doesn't answer the question... if you have all those uncertainties, why make it your launch title? Heck, if they feel what you say, why make it at all?
Remember.. Deeproot was NOT obligated to make RAZA - THEY CHOSE TO. And apparently is the game they chose to invest in so that it's the farthest along (at least as we know..)
So now, why after 3 years do you say 'well it wasn't meant to be the launch title...' and downplay it sales? This has nothing to do with Cornoa... this has to do with what they've been doing and their business strategy for the years leading up to this.

I think the first question is: why hire Jpop in the first place? He's a polarizing individual in the community. That's pretty well known - and he already screwed over *another* company before DR. So unless DR has their head in the sand, there's a main reason to hire him: he's a well known designer, has hits from 25 years ago - and is controversial. So if you subscribe to the "Controversy Creates Cash" mindset... he's a perfect fit. Now, you hire JPop so you get the marketing blitz and the community is talking about your company left and right ("there is no such thing as bad publicity").

Ok, JPOP is on board. Now how do you calm some of the teeth gnashing and the risk of litigation (a la Predator). Weigh out whether building 500 RAZA is less expensive than a long, drawn out lawsuit (even if it's ultimately thrown out, its a lot of money and time to waste on something that's not making games). So in this case - maybe that's it. Making 500 games that "don't clog the pipeline" and getting it over with.

OR. The launch game isn't ready, and they rushed these out like MG.

#8377 3 years ago
Quoted from mbeardsley:

Except that they didn't just hire a designer, they also bought and used his designs...designs which had been financed (some would say via fraud) by others.
So, they had to either make those "investors" happy, or risk a bunch of lawsuits down the road. The easier and (probably) cheaper way was to promise "future stuff" in return for no lawsuits.
Personally, I don't understand WHY they insisted on using JPOP's previous designs. They could have just hired him to do a new design. It's not like RAZA is so impressive an intellectual property that it was worth all the hassle.

This is my impression too -

#8383 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Not sure why all the open ended questions...
RM for some reason thinks JPOP is a gem.. he just needs the right environment to succeed. You might even say he's enamored with him as much as he's fluffed JPOP over the years. He didn't NEED JPOP - he brought JPOP in knowing all the baggage he had. They knew all the problems, knew there was other talent on the street, but still opt'd to bring JPOP on... knowing he has a ton of real hard dollar baggage tied to him. RM thought JPOP was a key asset.
To the point they created a settlement offer for zidware customers (including cash layout offers) to get people to 1) drop any lawsuits against zidware (and thus clean up the air around DR's absorption of the assets) and 2) become the first faithful cheering DR on. Maybe some of this was supposed to make DR look like a White Knight in the hobby and thus garner positive customer sentiment... but I think it was 95% about getting the stink off JPOP so DR could move forward with JPOP and Zidware assets 'free and clear'.
Problem was... not everyone took the offer. The anchors on Zidware still exist to this day... now DR has to goto phase 2 still under contention, and fund Zidware's bankruptcy, and probably some of their ongoing defense of Zidware too. The opportunity to just wipe out zidware and absorb any usable stuff w/o contention is gone.. its no longer just an internal paperswap with some court filings no one would care about...
So why keep doing this? Does RM want to save JPOP THAT BAD? My guess... it's a blend of both. Trying to save JPOP -and- DR has already hitched their horse to the Zidware asset train and doesn't want to let it go (another... point of conflict with their current statements about RAZA and the launch title..)
So we know DR has done many backflips to try to free up Zidware and JPOP... all while they didn't need to... but it all seems to be part of a larger plan.
So now they say 'oh well RAZA really wasn't meant to be the launch title...' -- Then why is it the game furthest along (that we know of) and why did you even make it in the first place when by your own statements you have people that can crank out designs in weeks, and you expect to have 9 titles a year ready.
To downplay RAZA now doesn't make sense with all the investment DR has done to have it (along with the other Zidware stuff) and all their actions to date to bring it along. They could have left Zidware as a carcass and just hired JPOP as an individual. But they saw things in Zidware that at least RM wanted... and bet on that horse.

It’s like you read my post and wrote it loooooonger ...

#8387 3 years ago
Quoted from aeneas:

Don't you think it's the opposite ? JPop brought RM.
People here always talk as if RM wanted to start a pinball company, went looking around for designers and thought John would be the best designer to start with and then look for other ex-wms folks.
I believe what happened is the other way around. John went looking (again) for investors. He started selling dreams, and got RM involved.
That's what John did when zidware started, he sold dreams to buyers.
Shiny mockups, promises of spectacular games, and displaying new concepts and ideas to wow new peopel.
When zidware couldn't deliver, I remember reading (probably on Johns blog) something that there were enough rich people in the world, and why couldn't pinball machines be like artworks that were worth millions..
So John went looking for investors.
First with wcbrandes, trying to get MG released.
Then he found the family that started American Pinball. Convinced them to go into pinball, that his Houdini design was amazing, ready and playable, ..
The public release wasn't well received, the playfield had issues. AP management suddenly realised what toxic history John brought, something they probably weren't completely aware off, and they quickly got rid of him - paying the price of assembling magic girl machines.
Then John just did the same again - looking for investors with a lot of money to sell his dreams.
He found RM. A pinball enthousiast with access to investment money.
John stroke his ego, probably sold him the dream of owning a pinball company even bigger than Stern.
Remember John now was not only the great designer of games that RM knew from WMS but John had also become the designer of MG that sold for 25.000.
I don't think RM initally had the dream of being CEO of a pinball company, certainly not when RM got into the pinball hobby.
He got that idea / dream from John.
Especially in RM's first reactions here it was clear he was thinking and talking like John.
Saying RM is a puppet of John probably is too much, but RM was/is very influenced / blinded by John.

Where did you get any part of this information from ?

1 week later
#8415 3 years ago

That’s quite an old check

#8441 3 years ago

The site still appears to be down. Definitely not the best sign of a healthy company.

#8462 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballwil:

I think its time to closedown this Boutique Deeproot tread.
AND OPEN a orignal Deeproot game manufacturers
link on pinside.
Because Raza is ready to ship.
So show us this Damm machine hahaha.
I can"t wait anymore.

LOLZ

#8469 3 years ago
Quoted from pin2d:

I asked about this and was told their provider bricked the server and it is taking forever to fix.

uuuuuh.. What? That is either a gross, negligent oversight by the provider, or BS.

#8473 3 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

You're onto a big scoop.
Do a one hour podcast about it!

LOL

3 weeks later
#8501 3 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

Does anyone care at this point? All we get is noise and empty promises.

Nope.

#8516 3 years ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

He did for the people that accepted.
He did not for the people who still want to pursue in court.

And werent some of the people who accepted, expecting to get a game out of the deal? Those people have not been made whole.

1 month later
#8725 3 years ago
Quoted from okgrak:

Anything to buy? They barely have anything to show. Their website (and deeproot studios website) is a barely modified Wordpress template. Their last post on Instagram was in 2018 and they have zero presence on Facebook. They literally refer you to interviews on other sites to find out more information about the company...... in June of 2020 after most likely millions of dollars burned. The company is either mired by incompetent management, or lacks any kind of marketing forward business acumen. They may still pull a a miracle and pull some magic out of their hats, but what would you bet on at this point?

What I’ve said all along: Whether on purpose or just a safety net, I think this business is a tax haven for the owner’s insurance business, to show massive losses to offset profits in that area

#8727 3 years ago
Quoted from okgrak:

It certainly seems that way. I'm no tax expert, but how else do you explain having a Parent LLC with multiple subsidiaries, including an art studio, contract manufacturer, pinball company and private equity funds in some convoluted business arrangement? Most likely the PE funds funnel money into the Pinball company, which then pay royalties to the Tech/Manufacturing LLC and the Art Studio. Any lawyers or tax experts here care to weigh in with a professional opinion?

IANAL, and lawyers are too smart to comment on wild inferences. I have no info, just seems like what one would do from a business standpoint.

1 week later
#8754 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

So it's been over three and half years...
Even Gene Cunningham managed to build a pinball machine in less amount of time...

OH NO YOU DIDNT!

But also... yes.

1 week later
#8799 3 years ago

With the confirmations they laid off so many people in the Utah office, only Texas is left. And no word from our friend at the top.

#8807 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I'm a product designer, and you better bet management doesn't care there's a panademic right now. If you use the covid excuse in a meeting for not keeping your projects on time, you'll get all the stories about layoffs and paycuts at other companies, and you should thank your lucky stars our company is doing well. I work 4 days a week from home and one in the office, but if I need to get sh*t done, you better believe they expect me to go into the office with mask on and get it done.

This. People need work. Texas isn’t shut down, there isn’t a better time to find Labor at low cost in recent memory

#8825 3 years ago
Quoted from RCA1:

This is probably irrelevant, but does this seem odd to anyone else?
From the deeproot funds website:
Phone
Please call us toll-free at (888) 316-2935. Extensions include:
Opt 1 – Fund Customer Service
Opt 2 – Sales
Opt 3 – deeproot Pinball
Opt 4 – Broker, Advisor, or Representative
Opt 5 – Executive Offices
Deeproot pinball doesn't have their own phone number?

This isn’t that unusual for an offshoot company really, the pinball company is probably sharing a lot of the same Back end

1 week later
#8838 3 years ago
Quoted from Sinistarrett:

Yeah thats just gross.

Oh wow. It sure is. I wish I could unsee that.

1 week later
#8871 3 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

As far as I know, David Thiel is still with deeproot. He seems noteworthy and someone I'd trust with his experience in the video game and pinball industries.

No sign of Deeproot on his LinkedIn, and he specifically names them as a "client" in various settings, so he doesn't appear to be affiliated with them as an employee

#8881 3 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

Cary and Kaneda said in late May they were invited by RM to a factory tour loosely dated for late July 2020. That is the special recorded tour the deeprot website speaks of.
This tour hasn´t happened (yet). It is a substitute for a "grand" title launch (deeproot website). .

Its a good sign maybe that 2 million is enough fresh capital to get production rolling. If RM knew deproot wont make it he could go to jail for credit fraud and lose his license to practice law. Also that vocal ex employee we had here for example could put a nail into his coffin in that regard as a valuable witness in State against RM. So that he took the loan is a good sign for the health of deeproot.

No it isn't - most of those loans were "forgivable" if the company is under major strain. There aren't even requirements to prove you still have employees or that all the money was paid to employee compensation

#8886 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

?
Forgiveness is based on using the loan for the approved expenses. The largest portion being the payroll expenses.. and employee counts and retention are part of the calculations. It's largely self-reporting... but "willing to commit fraud" is not the same thing as "there aren't requirements to prove..." that you are claiming legal exceptions.

self-reporting. By definition you do not need proof. A lot of the companies we work with have had to lay people off and they were still able to get their loan forgiven, even though the employees no longer work there. When they initially submitted, they had employees. 8 weeks later or whatever.. no longer the case.

#8898 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I'll add Multimorphic, P3 to that list. And they may be a better comparison as they are a young company also based in Texas. Subjected to the same Texas state laws and Covid limitations, etc.
Both Deeproot and Multimorphic announced a new game to be revealed at the Texas Pinball Festival last March. TPF was canceled but Multimorphic adapted by following through and is delivering a hit game.

I should be getting one in a couple months! They seem to have had a lot of orders of Heist

#8900 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

You will love it. I've had mine for about 3 months now and it's the best game I've owned in a very, very long time.

WOW.

I'm pretty psyched. The playfield is packed, the crane looks like it's well-integrated, and the game has a ton of modes and shots. The playfield reminds me a bit of GB, due to the city landscape ,I think. Just looks crazy fun to shoot. I'm figuring I'll pick up CCR eventually too. I've been thinking of mods for that one to dress it up a bit.

so... if Deeproot ever comes up with a game, I can compare with Multimorphic's offerings!

#8942 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I took the deal DR because i wanted to support pinball and their efforts to bring more of it to the hobby.
I also decided i had to take some personal responsibility for making a terrible decision in supporting the JPOP follies during those "noodling" years of nothingness.
No matter how it turns out i made the right decision for myself all the way around. I'm still in a great position here barring some sort of bankruptcy filing.
Even still, as poor as the execution has been by the management team at DR, its hard to fathom that you could blow that much money and pinball talent and end up producing nothing for actual sale.
Bottom line, i'll be made whole, along with others, via that contract signed with DR, in September, one way or the other.

What happens to that contract if DR is dissolved?

2 weeks later
#9125 3 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

Let´s keep it reasonable. A desaster would be If it was undoable. It was doable + when you dont make it you drop down half-way.
I quote the guy from the Imoto-video: "On a new pin all I care about are the shots and the shots are great." In that video you see him making the ramp he is an advanced player.

The ramp was intentionally difficult thats why can drop down half way. I dont see them changing anything physical on that ramp and that is good.

It's only good if a majority of people agree, and agree that it's a fun enough game to put some money down. Time will tell

#9141 3 years ago
Quoted from NevadaNutJob:

In the blown up pic you can clearly make out a dark birds head in a macabre style . The next release will be Edgar Allen Poe’s The Raven . Case solved

That sounds more like an AP theme. Which I would totally buy !

#9209 3 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Oh, absolutely. Once they learned of JPOP and his ripping off of the community, they dropped him like a bad habit. Not sure what DP excuse is.

Pretty sure it was the box of lights they were forced to show off at Expo. I still feel bad for them about that. It did not flip, had no cabinet. Literally a box of lights. Not sure if it got turned into Magic Girl or just trashed or what. Sure looks a hell of a lot like a modified Theater of Magic though.

#9211 3 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Say what you will but I Wish that version of Houdini made it. Love it.

Could have been a good game, I'm sure - but at the time, it sure as hell wasn't. The art is cool though! Who did that? ZombieYeti?

#9237 3 years ago
Quoted from wesman:

Just my view. Not interested in buying games by Stern till they place more into build quality, better lcd, more novel use of the playfield and mechs, etc. I feel like Ripley's felt more like a pin from the B/W's 90's era than anything they've done since, maybe excluding Ghostbusters.
It's great that pinball has survived thanks to them existing solo, but their brand of pinball has never really interested me to the point of owning.
Hopefully Deeproot pushes much farther in the ways I feel Stern has languished. If they don't, more cash in my pocket.

Generally I agree that Stern has had some fairly lackluster releases recently - Munsters and Stranger Things come to mind. I hate that they can't even upgrade their damn coil stops, not to mention the clear issues.

But JP2 and Elvira3 have been KNOCK. OUT. good. The gameplay on JP2 is really interesting, the playfield is well laid out, the toys on the Prem are amazing - it's a solid package. (yeah the LCD work is kinda lame). EHOH on the other hand, is almost the reverse. Somehow Lyman figured out how to make the fan layout interesting, the art and LCD screen work is AMAZINGLY well integrated. I am just bowled over by that game. It's super fun, and there are a million modes. I haven't even seen half the game, and I play it every day.

1 week later
#9461 3 years ago
Quoted from Makakka:

Noone wants to spend 20k on pinball in 1 month.

I absolutely do! It's just not going to be on this.

#9542 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

BD should be changed to BS in my opinion.
Still no game. That was said 4 years ago. Since then Stern have released 10 titles or maybe even more. Killer games too I may add.
What has Deeproot released? I understand people are willing Deeproot on and I sincerely hope we see a game ship in 2020 and not more broken promises.

Really interesting marketing strategy, where they appear to only be marketing (in secret?!) to Pinside users. There is no other attempt to reach out beyond this small group, which representes only a fraction of pinball fans worldwide.

#9557 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

??
The successful characters and stories was all that differentiates wwf from the traveling wrestling shows that play to school gyms

Which is long gone by now. They (Vince) have long lost whatever magic or deal with the devil they made in the 80s. WWE has no clue how to create such characters now. Ironically, they amped up the school gym characters to 11 which is what brought such success back then.

Oh, you didn’t mean to get into a semi-meaningful discussion about wrestling?! My bad! Lol

28
#9576 3 years ago
Quoted from teekee:

Just checking in... Oh I see it’s the same whiny women here still crying about Deeproot. I can already tell who the haters are and who will never be satisfied no matter what deeproot does. No matter what they reveal the same whiners will be here spewing their hate with endless boring post hoping for dozens of thumbs up from the other haters. Some of you guys really need something else in your life other than Pinside and your sticky keyboard.

You are aware of the phenomenal irony of your statement here?

#9592 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

This is San Antonio, not San Francisco.
The virus is no excuse.
And they received two PPP loans it appears.

What difference does it make that it’s San Antonio? Is TX operating business as usual right now ?

1 week later
#10261 3 years ago

So wait, what happened? There was a fake stream,I know - but was the whole thing a scam, or is the countdown still counting? wth is going on

#10474 3 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I think what's really telling is based on their statement, they didn't really have many outside people come to look at what they're doing before the media came. Apparently everything was fine until some outside pinball-people came to look at what they had. Then the marketing presentation turned into a focus group and feedback session. So something is clearly very wrong somewhere. (Maybe someone finally convinced them to not show anything until games are in boxes ready to be put in trucks)

It sure sounds like you're right - but what about the game designers??! (forget about JPop... but the other guys!)

#10495 3 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

You mean like near septuagenarian Barry O that is probably happy to be drawing a check and won't be overly critical of the weirdo writing the checks?

OUCH!!

#10800 3 years ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Who does Robert answer to? Is this endeavor really his own personal chocolate factory or is there a board of directors somewhere watching him flush all this money down the tubes for years with nothing to show for it and no viable path to profitability chasing a personal dream/hobby?

Did Deeproot take the COVID assistance? There’s your answer

#10805 3 years ago
Quoted from frankmac:

My .02 cent.
deeproot needs to release Raza as is.
It is definitely awkward looking at the pictures but if a well done video of The pin and its gameplay is released in the next few days it might be able to save Raza.
Then make your adjustments after your first release.
The wait is killing this project for most.
Hope something positive comes of this.

But If the game don’t shoot... I mean the community crucified Houdini, which started as another JPop disaster ... and that game as shipped CAN shoot!

15
#10902 3 years ago
Quoted from dung:

Because p3 is kind of a turd. It has a few people who love it but for most its too much emohasis on tech and ignored what made pinball fun to begin with.
P3 is what happens when you design by comitee. People want swappable playfields. Reality, you have multithousand dollar games but can only play one at a time and have to have stoarage not to damage expensive wall hangers.
People want digital interaction. Reality, bittom of the playfield is barren. Physical toys are non existant. The games are interesting the firs r few times but lack replay sinilar to pinball 2k.
Don't even bother arguing against it. Numbers speao volumes. Price isn't the problem either because there are plenty of new machines sought after in its price bracket. The interest just isn't there for a reason.

Sounds like you haven't played Heist....

#11081 3 years ago
Quoted from apessino:

There are lots of things to like about their work in progress, but some of the statements and decisions are just... odd.

That last sentence is beyond ridiculous - it actually shows a rather extraordinary level of misunderstanding of the development process. It's the kind of ultra noob mindset you hear from devs attempting their first indie game once they have a couple of basic tools running.

What?

1,000x this ^^^ Software development isn't hard because it takes too long to hook things up, it's hard because the plan changes, different developers have different approaches, and it's impossible to look into the future to determine what should have been coded as a module instead of 2 lines for a specific purpose because you never in a million years thought it would need to be reused.

#11171 3 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Yep nailed it. Engineers routinely underestimate difficulty. And the worst part of it is that it sounds like they invested massive time and money in laying the foundation of the machine rather than concentrating on the machine itself. Nobody and I mean nobody cares or appreciates any of that crap unless it comes at the same or lower dollar figure for final machine. Seems like they spent way too much time on their platform and design concepts than an actual single functional (and more importantly build able) machine

On the flip side, when DR goes out of business they can sell these innovations to other pinball companies and Stern will FINALLY update their setup menus! Win-win

#11194 3 years ago
Quoted from PinBallPeteFromSD:

I have been doing electrical work for 20+ years. [quoted image]

That picture is hilarious

#11463 3 years ago
Quoted from Joe_Blasi:

The online stuff seems nice but ops may not want to pay per mouth / game on an 9K+ game they put on site.

You can’t even break even on a 9k game on location.

#11495 3 years ago

I am still failing to see why this is any different at all from the P3 system? 2 screens, check. Menu system? Check. Online play and leader boards? Check. WTF? At least P3 games have a start button

#11597 3 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

I believe dr’s intent is for both displays to reflect the same info. For that reason, you should only count 1 screen for RAZA. The arcade model eliminates the backbox and the rear display anyways. The pinbar is a display AND a touchscreen and only access point for menu.
All Deeproot games will ship with one pinbar. If you buy the x or xtra models, you’ll get a duplicate display (slightly bigger but further away) under backbox. The pinbar can be removed and used elsewhere. When that happen, the source game is unplayable yet it will have zero displays.

Aaah ok, thank you for clarifying!

#11676 3 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Let’s face the dirty little secret here, every one of us would sign a NDA to see DR’s latest offering, so don’t deny it, especially if it was on their dime. We are suckers for new pin titles and if that title is coming from an unknown pin company, then even more intrigue is thrown in the blender. So the “super six” are not to be blamed for going, signing, or keeping their mouths shut.
Now as to how the whole “reveal” scheme and how dr went about it?!? Definitely Shady as phuck... the whole JPOP 2.0 vibe mentioned earlier is a real concern imo. Given the army of talent hired by them, any pre-launch/reveal/post launch issues they encountered is a big dripping red flag of WTF because NOBODY burns through this much capital and reveals the aborted fetus of a glitching unplayable machine to the rabid pinball press.

Nobody except perhaps a very savvy and successful business owner looking for a way to avoid paying taxes from his other ventures

#11765 3 years ago
Quoted from Billy16:

I think The Three Stooges coulda done a better job than DR. Hell, Iggy and the Stooges coulda done way better. Pinball might be hard, but it ain't that hard...

+1 for a Stooges pin! Fun House is already a thing, now let’s get RAW POWER!!!!

#11936 3 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Dunning–Kruger effect explains it pretty well I think.

DAY-YUM. Also: Yes.

#12070 3 years ago
Quoted from spinal:

Another reason why they should have picked either zero or one new fangled innovations to add their first game (instead of changing almost every part in one shot)...
If any of these new custom parts break down, we can only get these parts through DR...
And the chance that they will break is high since they are all new designs...
Which means that any buyer has to have a much higher level of confidence that DR will be around for a long time...
And with DR strongly signalling they have no idea what they are doing (I mean they hired 5-person pro film crew to shoot the reveal like it was the first iphone release only to have some outside amateurs tell them it’s not ready)...
And so no operator in his right mind would buy (at least not the first version)...
So, oh yeah, so this is one more reason why it might have been better to incrementally add innovation and not all at once. Again goal is to build a successful company and not just the first game. Anyway I still do wish them luck but I’m more than a bit worried at this point and that’s if they take until 2023 which it looks like they will need.

You just outlined a huge reason why Heighway went bye-bye. Also, hovercrafts.

#12167 3 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Oddly, I was going to say the same in reverse lol. Odd how committed a few are to Anything that may be suggested as change from the same old. No, nobody Needs to change the menu screens but to make something Possibly better is a bad thing? What do we care if it took them 2 days or 2 years to do. If its Possibly better it doesn't really effect Our business is my guess.

With all due genuine respect, Levi is arguing money, and everybody else is arguing “wouldnt that be cool?!?!” Which is, to be fair, kind of what this thread is about. It’s clear DR isn’t going to produce a game, other than the shell game for investors (and perhaps the SEC or IRS once they are again funded appropriately), so why not dream!? But let’s not get mad when someone interjects with real world cost/profit margin discussion

1 week later
#12694 3 years ago
Quoted from Bumper:

Questions, questions, questions...
Is the DeepRoot Funds business not doing well?
When you select "BD Sales Agreement Mtg" you see that Robert J. Mueller has no future appointments at all:
https://my.setmore.com/bookingpage/1c556a26-7acd-4d26-a20f-e6285a702673#
Did they give up? Their primary page is still black: https://deeprootpinball.com/
Or not? https://www.indeed.com/q-Deeproot-l-San-Antonio,-TX-jobs.html
https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1606191/000137647414000186/dr_s1.htm
You invest at least 10k in his fund for 5 years and you get 7% per year but if you decide to stop early you lose not only the interest but also 15% of what you invested?
Is this Deeproot pinball? "A private placement is the purchase of an illiquid or restricted investment position in another enterprise which is typically privately held, with the anticipation of significant return of income or capital, if the enterprise is successful. There is an extreme risk of loss in this type of investment. We will seek to minimize this risk by limiting private placements to ten percent (10%) of its total portfolio value."

This last statement is a pretty common venture capital inclusion - you invest, but it’s very speculative and you could LOSE IT ALL! Although typically VC investors like to see more than a tiny sliver of profit for all that risk they’re taking. I still think this is a tax avoidance scheme

1 week later
#12949 3 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

Pinbar
[quoted image]

So... even their one innovation isn’t innovative?

1 week later
#13080 3 years ago
Quoted from yancy:

There once was a man from the south
Adept at running his mouth
Five days, then five years
His funds disappeared
Even deep roots dry up in a drought

That is shockingly good!

1 week later
#13158 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballrockstar:

All this energy you keep pouring into the JPOP situation..JPOP-JPOP-JPOP!
Would it have killed you to place 1 lousy comment in the Pinball Amigos topic.
Something like: “ hey dudes,i heard i inspired you guys with the Ben Heck show pinball builds,you guys do shitty wiring but good luck on your build”.
We’ve been building for 5 fucking years Ben,all the while you post and post about JPOP...
We would have been super proud.
But hey...there’s JPOP?!
Thanks Ben.

LOL WTF!

Hey dudes Ben Heck inspired you guys with the BH Show pinball builds... good luck!!!!!
....Where's JPOP!?

#13169 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Remember for me it's personal. John said I was "making a mistake" by helping Spooky instead of him.
Whoops!

But you did make a mistake! It just wasn't a mistake for YOU! JPOP got screwed man!! LOL

#13217 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I am willing to bet the arcade style cabinet version will not have a Pinbar, just as it was at the HAAG show in 2019.

What exactly is an 'arcade style cabinet' ?

#13720 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

This next one will be the fourth one.

Good lord. Wake me up when they have a modern pinball machine.

1 week later
#13838 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Andrew Heighway posted many photos and videos of the "production" line.

Were they fake? Or just poorly run? I didn't follow that saga too closely.

#13991 3 years ago

The main site should not be brought down for a subdomain e-commerce site test. At this point, this is either a scam or sheer incompetence. Either way, stay far far away...

#14167 3 years ago
Quoted from jellikit:

[quoted image]

LOL Mirror Universe Gerry!

#14230 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

I just hope they send me one so everyone has a chance to see it and play it. Inside and out.
LTG : )

They’d be stupid not to.

#14241 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

I must have misunderstood your down vote.
LTG : )

Sorry! Didn’t realize I did that

#14452 3 years ago
Quoted from NoQuarters:

Hit the pinbar and the establishment your in brings your beer and food order out to you at the pinball game. Saves you 20 steps going up to the bar to order.

Well, now you've done it. You posted that online. They're going to integrate the PinBar with the POS systems and you're screwed out of your idea! NICE JOB DUDE

#14453 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Also does anyone else appreciate the irony of a lawyer going gaga for the art on a game that's at least 3 lawsuits waiting to happen? (Toho, MGM, Topps)

I was with you until Topps. The baseball card company?

#14460 3 years ago
Quoted from mrgone:

Tops owns Mars attacks trading cards.
From the 50’s or 60’s.
It’s what the movie was based on.
Very loosely based on.

aaaah gotcha!

#14468 3 years ago
Quoted from Scandell:

I worked for Deeproot Studios last year and quit after Robert stopped paying me. I have 4 kids and couldn’t lend him money via “work without pay”. It’s feasible he owes me interest on late payment. He has since thrown a cease and desist at me and has threatened to pursue after a bonus he paid me as I joined his organization. Don’t assume we are all haters. You might just be lacking perspective.

The C&D is nonsense, but if he’s a real asshat, he can make it expensive for you. I don’t know about Utah, but in many states once you stop getting a paycheck... you ain’t an employee any longer.

#14536 3 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

Update time...
Now that the dust has settled from my disappointments on the day orders opened for RAZA, I decided to reach out to deeproot because I could not help myself from still being excited about RAZA and to get some questions I had answered.
Shortly after filling out the form on deeproot’s contact page, I received a prompt, professional, and gracious reply. They were very thorough and answered each of my questions in a honest and transparent way. I never got the sense that they were over promising or trying to tell me what I wanted to hear to get a sale. We have since exchanged several emails and it has been a positive experience and I’m very appreciative of the time they spent answering my questions and clarifying things I didn’t quite understand. I am satisfied with their answers even though some of the answers were not what I was hoping to hear.
At this point I am reconsidering my position that I took on ordering day and I am once again seriously considering putting down a 10% deposit on an Arcade Edition. I still have a few things to consider before making a final decision.
If anyone is considering buying a RAZA and have any questions, I recommend contacting them using their online form as they have been very responsive and seem to know their product.

Well that's good to hear. What did you ask?

#14561 3 years ago
Quoted from wrb1977:

I cannot share any of the content of my email exchanges with deeproot as I signed a NDA that expires on my 100th birthday in the year 2077.
To be truthful, the last thing I am going to do is share the information deeproot provided me with people such as yourself that have shown by their posts in this thread that they are clearly not a potential deeproot customer to only have anything I say torn apart, bashed, and ultimately providing more content for the negative shitshow that this thread has mostly become.
Like I said, I encourage any of you that are seriously considering ordering RAZA to reach out to deeproot with any specific questions you may have as they are very responsive and a pleasure to communicate with. That way, you can get your answers directly from deeproot and decide for yourself, as I am doing, if RAZA is right for you.

Huh.

#14776 3 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I can't believe you guys are talking about dream themes when we still have no evidence of production ability and its been confirmed that Food Truck is the next title.

Maybe it’s Goonies’ Food Truck... Chunk’s Truck!

1 week later
#15007 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Ya'll do realize that quad & octo manufacturing were never really a thing right? Just more "bullshit JPOP words" to slap on a flyer like "Quickstep solenoids"
Hopefully for the buyers they have something real setup.

I'm confused. Isn't this the exact reason everyone is making so much fun of it?

#15027 3 years ago
Quoted from greenhornet:

on this latest development :
it does not appear that DR will be delivering games packed with features at a discount to the market. if these 'real' prices hold for similarly featured future titles, they will be comparable to JJPs LE and CE models.
their position is that DR innovations/technology justify these prices when compared to the competition. in all likelihood, they reevaluated their various costs and concluded that these are the type of prices at which they must sell games in order to sustain profitability in light of their massive development/start up costs. its unfortunate they put so much into their games that they wont be able to sell them cheap.
at these prices, people are going to want to see/try what they are buying first. given the current and near term climate of NIB pinball accessibility, it will be difficult for DR to showcase their innovations to potential consumers hands on. for the time being, people will have to rely mainly on gameplay videos to make the determination as to whether the DR experience is worth an expected 8K+addons / 13K fully featured. having a limited number of RAZAs confined to peoples home collections isnt going to help DR reach new buyers. expect this lack of exposure to hamper short term sales .
these price points are not going to drive sales. so what will? original themes? innovations that people could just as easily live without? a levitating ball gimmick? steve bowdens coding and quinn johnsons storytelling? these games are going to have to be pretty compelling in order for future pricing to remain at the high end of the market. given what we have seen/heard/read up to this point, DR may have to resign itself to boutique sales numbers for the time being.

Which means JJP pricing, on themes like “Food Truck” and “The Zany Castle” or whatever. That said, I did buy a P3 for “Heist” and it was worth every dime.

#15239 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Semantics? You are not even using the right words and drawing the wrong conclusions. That's not semantics - those are fundamental problems that make you say completely inaccurate things.

A comparison that tries to attribute a business strategy choice to something they didn't intend to do... And in the JJP cite he only sold at low margin (probably negative) for games that were sold during a pre-sale, and by mistake. It's been explained over and over, yet you keep repeating this non-sense.
And how would Deeproot's current strategy of teasing future prices being higher be about 'attracting market share' when they intentionally limited their sales window to, what.. 3 weeks? With NOTHING ELSE TO SELL. You get 'market share' by having nothing to sell?
IMO deeproot tried to create FOMO around RAZA to pump the sales because they want order #s NOW... and don't want RAZA hanging around. But why the latter point... is speculative. Is it because they want to focus on game #2, or is it because they want to limit their build liability.
They could always take more time to fulfill RAZA orders if 'starting slow...' was their real concern. But here they intentionally limited themselves.

Ok guys time to unclench. None of this actually has anything to do with DR

#15240 3 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

???
San Antonio has a metro population of 2.5m. It's a top 25 major American city, yet they struggle to find people with any manufacturing or engineering experience?
I'm sure there are a lot of important people to know when it comes to pinball part procurements. But they can't scrounge up some mechanical engineers to work for the designers?
Whatever...they don't know what they're doing. Can't be surprised anymore.

I suppose the comment about Joe Balcer knowing a lot of people in Chicago might lend some insight. If they were starting from scratch, in a non-pinball city (is there even any OTHER pinball city?), it will be a lot longer to figure out who knows what they are doing, and how to find them. I'd imagine even if you do find some mechanical engineers, there's a work ethic and "the knack" to pinball that you're not going to find in everybody. But for them to have literally *no one* (as per Nordman's statement quoted a few posts up) is pretty pitiful.

#15320 3 years ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Food Truck is Diner 2. Simple.

And Yukon Yeti is Whitewater 2. Next!

#15405 3 years ago
Quoted from DennisNordman:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

LOL Pwned!

2 weeks later
#15693 3 years ago

So guys, I kinda slept on the past couple months. did Deeproot ever make a game?

1 month later
#16456 3 years ago
Quoted from hank527:I found a book for Robert. I think he should read this one. I’m reading it and it speaks volumes about straight talk. Deeproot would be so much better if they just told the truth. [quoted image]

1,000% agree. That book goes a little off the deep end at the end IMO, but basically it's spot on. I'm in techology, and the amount of "see, I'm smart too!" jargon is devastating. Most of the time they're not even using the terms correctly, which drives me crazy. Then it's a mad mental dash to try to correct the person without making it obvious to the customer, and I'm left with - by the way, I'm the basement-dwelling, no social skills computer nerd - I have to explain things using an analogy or just blunt language so the customer understands.

1 week later
#16677 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

John just slaps shit in a box to give the IMPRESSION of a pinball machine. His Houdini was the same thing.
Robert (like AP before him) couldn't sniff the BS and dove in.

Despite the reams of documentation, horror stories and IMMEDIATE preceding AP debacle which confirmed the whole thing. This is why I think it's all a scam. Perfect setup: "oh! My goodness! I had no idea JPOP was a disasterpiece! Of course we always do our due dilgence! Except for this ONE time..."

#16721 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Saw this news story yesterday. The CEO of lordstown motors (electric pickup truck company in ohio) literally made up 100k orders, and they are likely years behind schedule.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/39755/lordstown-motors-faked-orders-for-electric-pickup-thats-years-behind-schedule-report

That is very depressing. I was really pulling for them, even considered putting down a deposit! (I'm from Toledo, so really wanted to see them succeed)

#16836 3 years ago

RIP Eddie, one of the greatest of all time!

#16868 3 years ago
Quoted from Eightball88:

I googled it. “Viva la raza” seems like an odd thing for everybody to be posting here, but whatever. Maybe this thread is destined to be the next “Lionman!”

RAZA: Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure. I believe there's supposed to be a game coming out.

#16874 3 years ago
Quoted from wcbrandes:

Watching a Pinside group with pitchforks rooting for a pinball company to fail is just sad.
This says a ton about the owner!

It also means it's a day ending in "y" haha

#16914 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

From the last update posted 21 days ago:
"PARTS & PRODUCTION
As an update, we have the lockbar (not pinbar as reported) and lighted side panel vendors remedied".
I was wondering if anyone has deciphered what that means for the Pinbar or what RAZA will ship with. I'm genuinely confused by it.

Hilarious. Move the goalposts again. It's ok guys, pinball is easy. The Pinbar could have been an interesting way to offset costs by embedding ads (not that anyone would have liked that, but it would allow them to sell at a lower price point), but why they didn't just put the ads in the backbox is beyond me.

Well, at least they're learning. I wonder on who's dime?

#16923 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

A lock bar is the thing that goes across the coin door to keep thieves from breaking in and stealing money.
I guess that will have a tv screen on it now too?

My money's on whoever wrote that statement now knowing the difference

#16931 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

If this were any other company I would agree. But It's Deep Root so I'm expecting some innovation here - a lock bar with a screen that warns would-be invaders that the cops are on the way is my best bet.
In family use it can be modified to let the parents' know the kids are trying to break in to RAZA in search of weed or porn.

LOL. RIP "craziest things I found in a pinball machine" thread.

1 week later
#17180 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

I don't see what would be so difficult about getting the license if you have a blank check and hire a licensing consultant. They may be in over their heads negotiating it and have unrealistic internal projects relative to when the license expires, but deeproot seems to be able to afford it. Robert is a lawyer, so it seems to be in his wheelhouse (compared to starting a manufacturing company)
Sure Stern is great at licensing. I don't dispute that.
And just to say, I was questioning whether or not they actually had the licenses months ago
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twip-is-deeproot-the-next-misadventure-or-a-pinball-revolution/page/311#post-6076569

They should just hire Roger Sharpe. He gets it done.

#17186 2 years ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

They got The Big Lebowski which I would consider to be on the same tier as The Goonies. (Also lots of licensed music and some other various things)
I know DP was playing it fast and loose with their TBL license and went through a few licensing consultants to button it all up. But they got it done.
I think they're all Universal properties.

good point - Universal is pretty liberal about granting licenses, unlike WB and Disney, who have extremely strict guidelines. And Harry Potter also is directly controlled by the author lady, and so far up the chain only the biggest things or companies with previous relationships get approved.

#17207 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

I’m in for a “None More Black” LE

Shit sandwich Collector’s edition!

all of the spinal tap guys still have huge careers still going. ALL of them have had shows on in the last year - HS is still on Simpsons, and Michael McKean did a huge run on Better Call Saul. Baron Christopher Guest has kind of a good thing going with a couple of movies he made, and whatever nonsense he has to do as a result of his British royalty thing. I’d love it if they were involved but they all seem kinda busy

At least I hope they get the bloody 40th anniversary bluray together!

#17208 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

How old is that documentary? Joel was a raging drunk for years if not decades, which probably fueled his ass-holery. Dude drunk drove his car into the houses of multiple people on Long Island. Multiple.
I think he’s been sober now for years and I wonder if he’s mellowed and less of a dick? I only care in as much as The Stranger was the second album I ever had and I wore out the grooves. I lost track of Joel outside of his hits once I discovered KROQ.
I’ll bring this back around to Spinal Tap. Why hasn’t this been made? Cult classic - so a cult following - that still touched a mainstream vein (“these go to 11”). A treasure trove of one liners and concept ideas. LCD movie clips would be hysterical. Great music (I mean it, great). I’m dead to rights sure the license would be gettable and affordable. AND, I’m pretty sure the guys - none of them exactly pop culture kings these days - would participate in the creative process (ala Slash).
Get it done JJP! This, honestly, would be my only “take my money” now theme. Sight unseen and playfield chipping be damned.

Joel was out of his mind in early to mid 2000s, and Liberty Devitto confronted him about it .. they had a huge fight. OH AND BY THE WAY Devitto also was suing Billy Joel for publishing royalties he thought he was due. Publishing is for writing the songs. Devitto’s claim was that he “made the songs what they are”, and gave some examples of how he changed the rhythms so that they were more catchy.

He’s a great drummer, but that ain’t the same thing as writing the song.

So I imagine BJ’s management told him to get rid of Devitto, and he (or his lawyer) did. They kinda left all this out of Hired Gun.

I’m not excusing Billy Joel - he does seem to be a huge DB but no one is totally innocent here. Also left out of the documentary is how Liberty Devitto and Joel made up and are on good terms again.

#17211 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Question: With deeproot being 2 years behind schedule they could have set up the manufacturing in parallel to game development. Then staffed up when the time came.
So why didn't they? I think there's 2 options:
1) the real goal was to be bought out or to license out the amazing innovations (none of which are on the playfield)
2) they had very low internal faith in RAZA's sales potential. Recall the interview where Robert had no idea how many units it would sell.
The Glass Door reviews talk about "everything at owners whim". Imagine getting a small business loan or investment and having NO PLAN for what sales would be. No market research of what potential customers want. Or worse, pitching unit sales in the thousands then selling just over 100.
With a good license they could still have started small. Just scan Pinside people will tell you what they want. Grab Big Trouble in Little China , limit it to 500 units, build a line expecting those min sales and you'd be golden.
Manufacturers who call this WrongSide, DarkSide, SewerCide whatever have their heads in the sand. You guys are the direct link to the market, the blood pulsing through the veins of the hobby. So much market research can be done here FOR Free and yet they scoff. Except Stern of course who clearly IS paying attention.

Deeproot isn't a real company. I've always held the opinion that it's a place for RM to dump his profits from the insurance business so he can avoid taxes. He must be making a killing on that side.

#17327 2 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I find it odd that a supplier could provide 120 units but not 150 of a component.

This is definitely a thing. Since there is such a shortage of machined components still, lots of suppliers are rationing their orders

#17339 2 years ago
Quoted from Oldgoat:

I understand but I'm not sure it is applicable in this case. Remember these are very small numbers. Stern orders 20,000 flipper buttons, JJP orders 5000 and Deeproot wants 300 instead of 250? Don't think it is worth the vendors time to break that order up.
As far as the game specific things, the setup time is so significant that the vendor wants to blast as many as possible. I doubt the ramp manufacturer says 'let's setup all the molds and stop at 120 units so I can make 5000 for Stern' It is much more efficient to just make the extra 20-30 units. At one point in my career I worked for a company that did screen printing (NFL, Disney sort of stuff). Once they had the screens setup, they blasted as much as possible. Even though setup costs were passed through, they would much prefer to print. Maybe printing playfields and plastics is different but given the low numbers, I'd think they would have no issue running an additional 20 units. But who knows, I'm not bright enough to figure out a lot of this.

Fair point - who knows what the real story is!

#17403 2 years ago

This thread is starting to make me understand the GameStop situation. I can not believe there are people still interested. I hope none of said interested people run businesses. Or a least ones that provide for your family!

#17493 2 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

100%! I’ve revised my previous post to correct for my omission. With the price of games skyrocketing, I’ve been thinking about Heist a lot lately. Dollar for dollar maybe even a better buy than Stern.

It is.

As far as newer games, I have a JJP POTC, Stern EHOH and Heist. Both of those games go for far more than a P3 now. Heist BY FAR is getting the most play, even though I really love the other two games, plus the rest of our gameroom. Tired of Heist for a minute? Switch over to ROCs! for a quick arcade boost (a la Asteroids). Not into space? Scoot & Shoot is a great game for getting good at drop catches and ball control. Those games are peanuts compared to buying a whole new Stern/JJP/AP.

Oh, and a huge update to Heist was teased by Multimorphic the other day.

1 week later
#17642 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Well, he does suck.

Well that wins the internet today!

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